The Society's Ultra Top Secret Evil Volcano Lair IIC Z

[Gaiiten]

IMO this is a question would answer with "Do as you like it!".

Very likely that they would use such units, I even think the Warrior caste would do this either, especially those warriors left behind on plants for years without support.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Does anyone have any ideas of weaponized support vehicles for Society/bandit forces?

Drones with booby traps.

They should be trivial for the high-tech Society to field.

And they preserve the Society's limited military manpower.

And they prey on Clan warrior prohibitions against targeting civilian targets (at least in the early going).

Also, check out the Brunel Dump Truck, which was modified by various Pentagon powers into AC/20 and LRM-20 variants.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Brunel

If the SLDF found room to bring Brunels or their production capability on the Exodus, you can probably justify any canon support vehicle in the Homeworlds that was both practical (e.g.., no luxury or racing vehicles) and existed before the Exodus.

[truetanker]

Or don't forget the Voidseekers...

TT

[Maingunnery]

Would the society really go for drones?

[Crimson Dynamo]

With how many resources they poured into projects to minimize the Warrior Caste's numerical superiority, and maximize the capabilities of their own men? I'd say for certain they would. You could argue that they were trying to do similar with the Synaptic Project and Feralize, just using cognitively-limited humans instead of computer systems as drones...

[Weirdo]

Despite their doing quite a bit to minimise the manpower, there's no evidence they looked at drones at all, using humans they didn't care about where the Republic or WoB would use robots/drones to avoid wasting those they value. I would call it a cultural blind spot. They are still a Clan society after all, with the inherent distrust of anything involved in the fall of the Star League, such as the Caspar drones.

[Natasha Kerensky]

Would the society really go for drones?

Canonically they did not.

But logically it makes a lot of sense.

The Society had (or should have had) the technical know-how.

The Society lacked the Warrior Caste's obvious prejudice against robotic alternatives to Clan warriors.

And the Society is actively seeking to exploit the Warrior Caste's assumptions and prejudices.

I assume Rome et al. did not apply drones to the Society either because they did not think to do so or because drones are less interesting game- and fiction-wise than human warriors.

But logically, drones and the Society make sense.  Their numerical inferiority gives them a strong impetus to do so.

And to the extent that the Society lacked significant production facilities for dedicated drone manufacturing, then modifications to existing support or combat vehicles to turn them into drones would be the next best thing.

You might not want to apply massed drones to an entire Society campaign.  But coming across a Society cell that is drone-happy would make for an interesting game or two.  Or a small Society drone used to target for indirect iATM and Arrow IV could add a dimension to Society games.

[Maingunnery]

Maybe if it was a pod-able drone-brain, then they could rapidly build up from cached material and salvage.

[Crow]

I've thought a few times about drones but forgot about Booby Traps. That's the perfect use for them. Society is about asymmetric warfare. Just strap a Booby Trap on any support vehicle you like and wait for the elite star to march through some narrow terrain and detonate. The amount of resources used is minimal, although this sort of trick would likely only work a few times before the Trueborns caught on.

If you're thinking Drones like the Revenant, I think that's going about things wrong as it's still a "stand up" fight and doesn't quite mesh with the whole asymmetric warfare part. Maybe drone operated SLDF vees with Nova CEWS might work though...

[Deadborder]

Once again, remember that the Society had limited time and resources. The uprising was something thrown together in a hurry in response to Andrews' insanity. They may not have had access to Drone tech in the first place, or not had the time or resources to bring a system even to limited production.

[glitterboy2098]

plus it is worth pointing out too that drone tech actually doesn't reduce the number of warriors you need. because each drone requires an operator to sit at a drone controller and run it remotely. and for combat drones you need combat trained pilots. all drone tech does is move that pilot out of the unit itself and into a centralize location a bit farther from the actual shooting.

now, a full on Robotic Cockpit system like the WOB Revenants and SDS's Blackwasp and Voidseekers used would remove the need for warriors. but those are a lot harder to develop.

and i doubt that the Society had a lot of time to develop drone systems for most things either.

sadly the Hi-Scout with its PathTrack  and Napfind drones was a post-exodus development in the IS. (introduction date of 3000)

[Deadborder]

Besides which, this is the Society we're talking about. It's a lot easier for them to fill vehicle crews with drug-addled Bandits, civillian conscripts, warrior washots, slaves or whatever else. The workforce allready exists without the added expense of developing an advanced piece of tech to do the same job

[Sharkapult]

Once again, remember that the Society had limited time and resources. The uprising was something thrown together in a hurry in response to Andrews' insanity. They may not have had access to Drone tech in the first place, or not had the time or resources to bring a system even to limited production.

Most of the Society's tech is an extrapolation of already developed technology developed in secret. Drones would have basically needed to be developed from (almost) nothing, and automated warrior technology would have been difficult to hide or explain away.

[Natasha Kerensky]

If you're thinking Drones like the Revenant, I think that's going about things wrong as it's still a "stand up" fight and doesn't quite mesh with the whole asymmetric warfare part.

I'm thinking drone support vehicles with booby traps strapped to them.  Simple, cheap, available, fast to field, and exploits Warrior Caste prohibitions against civilian targets and the Society's superior E/W capabilities.

Maybe drone operated SLDF vees with Nova CEWS might work though...

That could work too, but would be more involved.

A car can be controlled with an RC system and some servos and linkages.  (Just watch Mythbusters.)  With no weapons -- only a bomb -- all you have to do is drive it close to an omnimech and press "boom".

A tank requires more.  Its tracking/targeting/firing systems have to either relay data back to the operator or have some level of AI running them.

The Society certainly has the technical know-how to do the latter, but the former should require less time, resources, and facilities.

Once again, remember that the Society had limited time and resources.

I think that argues in favor of the Society using support vehicle drones with bombs.  They certainly cost less and take less time to field than developing or manufacturing a new combat vehicle.  And they might even be faster and cheaper than pulling an SLDF tank out of a Brian Cache and restoring it to operability.

They may not have had access to Drone tech in the first place,

There's drone tech and then there's DRONE TECH.

Caspars and Voidseekers are DRONE TECH -- AI-ish systems that could operate independently.  Maybe the Society had preserved that SLDF technology.

But even if not, there's still canon drone tech like the Hi-Scout, NapFind, and PathTrack or the Bullet Suicide Drone -- remote-controlled systems run by a human operator.  Even if the SLDF's AI systems were lost to the Society, remote controls were certainly well within the Society's technical capabilities.

not had the time or resources to bring a system even to limited production.

With support vehicles, I'm not talking about a factory production line.  The Society didn't create one even for crewed combat vehicles.

I'm talking about modifying civilian cars and trucks in garages so they can be operated remotely and blown up.

plus it is worth pointing out too that drone tech actually doesn't reduce the number of warriors you need.

Sure it does.

If we're talking about AI, there's no human operator involved.

If we're talking about remote-controlled combat vehicles, you need one operator instead of several crewmen and that operator will probably survive more battles than those crewmen.

If we're talking about remote-controlled and -detonated support vehicles, you don't even need a operator with training on military systems.  You just need a laborer or tech who can drive a civilian vehicle remotely and press the red button that goes "boom".

Besides which, this is the Society we're talking about. It's a lot easier for them to fill vehicle crews with drug-addled Bandits, civillian conscripts, warrior washots, slaves or whatever else. The workforce allready exists without the added expense

A human crew is always going to cost more to house, feed, and train (even in abject poverty) than an RC system and one operator.

of developing an advanced piece of tech to do the same job

Most of the Society's tech is an extrapolation of already developed technology developed in secret. Drones would have basically needed to be developed from (almost) nothing

In TacOps, "Drone (Remote) Systems" are available to the Clans and are mid-tech (rating C).  Based on this, the Society should not have to develop much of anything.

[Weirdo]

What's logical isn't necessarily what happened. Despite it being a good idea, we have zero evidence that the Society used drones in any way, and all the evidence they used humans for everything. Therefore, we have to assume they didn't bother with drones, for some reason or another.

[Natasha Kerensky]

What's logical isn't necessarily what happened. Despite it being a good idea, we have zero evidence that the Society used drones in any way

Sure.  That's why I wrote:

Canonically they did not.

But we're not talking about canon.  Crow wanted to know how the Society _could_ have leveraged support vehicles in combat (which we have no evidence of either).  I offered remote drone systems and boobytraps as perhaps the simplest, cheapest, fastest, most straightforward way to do so.

Therefore, we have to assume they didn't bother with drones, for some reason or another.

The Society had the technical capability, strong motives, and asymmetric doctrine to employ drones.  The only reasons for the Society to not have employed drones are external:  the writers didn't think of it or the writers reasoned that too much drone use doesn't fit with the flavor of the universe (which I would generally agree with).

If remote-controlled hovertruck bombs don't fit your concept of the universe, that's fine.  I'm just opening up a very logical and likely possibility for home play.  What Crow or I do with our Society cells isn't what you have to do with yours.

[Crow]

Natasha Kerensky 100% agree.

What's logical isn't necessarily what happened. Despite it being a good idea, we have zero evidence that the Society used drones in any way, and all the evidence they used humans for everything. Therefore, we have to assume they didn't bother with drones, for some reason or another.

Dat headcanon tho. We have only one source: WoR, which is written from the warrior's perspective and as such shouldn't be considered 100% reliable or complete.

[Maingunnery]

The Society had both the technical capability and strong motives to employ drones.  The only reasons for the Society to not have employed drones are external:  the writers didn't think of it or the writers reasoned that too much drone use doesn't fit with the universe.

It is mostly because the geneticists were in control of the Society during WoR. Like the warriors, these were heavily invested in human abilities, and thus likely have a bias against drones. They have spend generations to create the best warriors and were quite willing to go very far to make even better ones.

[truetanker]

I'd say they could have made use of suicide implants with attached highly explosive prosthetic implants to warriors and civilians that lost limbs, drugged them out of their minds and " reprocessed " their will to be more fanatical. Not only this, but give them Body Armor that is made up of cheap materials also packed with more explosives, carrying Satchel Charges. Hell even the civilians would wear shaped charged clothing when outdoors near warriors, waiting for the moment... a comm call or sound they were taught.

TT

[Natasha Kerensky]

It is mostly because the geneticists were in control of the Society during WoR. Like the warriors, these were heavily invested in human abilities, and thus likely have a bias against drones. They have spend generations to create the best warriors and were quite willing to go very far to make even better ones.

In principle, maybe.  In practice, quite the opposite.

The Society employed lots of very genetically flawed and drug-addled soldiers, too.  And washed-out warriors and freebirths.  They even threw other castes into battle.

Clearly the Society's geneticists were willing to forgo any perfect-warrior-uber-alles principles in favor of overthrowing the warrior caste and (later) pure survival. 

So the Society had no prohibition that would have kept them from employing remote-controlled drones. 

And in keeping with their tactical doctrine, they would have sought to exploit that warrior caste prohibition.

[Natasha Kerensky]

I'd say they could have made use of suicide implants with attached highly explosive prosthetic implants to warriors and civilians that lost limbs, drugged them out of their minds and " reprocessed " their will to be more fanatical.

Sure, but now we're copying Manei Domini flavor.  I don't want my Society cell tasting like toasters... ;-)

[Maingunnery]

In principle, maybe.  In practice, quite the opposite.

The Society employed lots of very genetically flawed and drug-addled soldiers, too.  And washed-out warriors and freebirths.  They even threw other castes into battle.

Clearly the Society's geneticists were willing to forgo any perfect-warrior-uber-alles principles in favor of overthrowing the warrior caste and (later) pure survival. 

So the Society had no prohibition that would have kept them from employing remote-controlled drones. 

And in keeping with their tactical doctrine, they would have sought to exploit that warrior caste prohibition.

It isn't about the perfect warrior, it is about thinking in warriors.
Both from a cultural and professional perspective they won't consider drones.
But if they have to, they will find and use ways to make people into their warriors, disposable or not.

[Crow]

Sure, but now we're copying Manei Domini flavor.  I don't want my Society cell tasting like toasters... ;-)

While Manei Dominei has it's merits, I quite prefer the flavor of Genecaste, to be honest. And let's face it, doesn't all of the mutagentic virotherapy stuff the Society use almost reek of collusion with the Genecaste?

[JadedFalcon]

While Manei Dominei has it's merits, I quite prefer the flavor of Genecaste, to be honest. And let's face it, doesn't all of the mutagentic virotherapy stuff the Society use almost reek of collusion with the Genecaste?

Similar tech, but with radically different goals. But if you're talking about Genecaste Wolverines trying to subvert the Society to destroy the homeworld Clans, then I'm on board with that. I like the silly notion that both Blakist Wolverines and Genecaste Wolverines were obsessed with destroying the Clans, without being aware of the other's plans.

In regards to booby traps, bombs and minefields on static locations were used by the Society, at least in the Inner Sphere. So if drones weren't their forte, things like roadside bombs may have been used. We're just lacking in examples.

[Natasha Kerensky]

It isn't about the perfect warrior,

Earlier you wrote:

They have spend generations to create the best warriors and were quite willing to go very far to make even better ones.

Regardless of the adjective, washouts, drug addicts, and mutated sub-humans are not the "perfect", "best", or any other kind of superior warrior.

These were all ways to bypass the traditional, time- and resource-intensive routes -- eugenics, artificial wombs, and intensive training and testing -- that the Clans took to create better warriors.  So clearly the Society was _not_ willing to go far to create better warriors, at least not under the pressures of the Wars of Reaving.

Maybe they intended to do differently after the WoR, but during their wartime existence, members of the Society took whatever shortcut they could avail themselves of to create military force, even when those shortcuts resulted in monsters.

it is about thinking in warriors.

If the Society was "thinking in warriors", then the bulk of their forces would not have been composed of SLDF tanks crewed by non-warrior caste members.

Both from a cultural and professional perspective they won't consider drones.

I think the evidence shows the exact opposite.  The Society did _not_ worship at the altar of the Warrior Caste, and because of that, they were willing to do whatever necessary to field a military capability during the WoR.  Drones fit well with this mentality.

If you're willing to take on the expense, time, cruelty, and horror of combat drugs and mutagenic virotherapies, why wouldn't you also have your weapons developers field some cheap drones en masse?

And let's face it, doesn't all of the mutagentic virotherapy stuff the Society use almost reek of collusion with the Genecaste?

Assuming the Genecaste is real at some level, it seems pretty easy to draw a line between them and the Society.

Of course, maybe the Genecaste rumors resulted from encounters with test subjects at a couple remote Society research facilities.

Or maybe the Genecaste rumors and even the term itself were invented by Society members to draw attention away from themselves.

In regards to booby traps, bombs and minefields on static locations were used by the Society

This is a good point.  In terms of tactical doctrine, there's not much difference between a mine and a bomb on a remote controlled civilian truck.

[Deadborder]

As said, there's no evidence at all that the Society had either a) access to drone tech or b) any interest in using it.

Let's look at these two points. The Clans had abandoned drone tech centuries ago. They had no active examples of the tech, and did not seem to ha e preserved samples either. It has been commented several times that Clan society is very labour intensive with little use of automation. For the Society to deploy Drone tech, they would need to in essence redevelop it from the ground up, which does not fit with their use of technology nor their deployment of it.

Despite all their advancements, every piece of tech the Society used was one of three things. Either it was tech currently being used by the Clans, tech that was under development by the Clans or something that was a direct outgrowth of existing actively used tech. Drone technology is none of these.

The second thing is, as said, the Society had plenty of human resources to draw from. They had an ample supply of warm bodies that they could throw into battle and easily replenish. They made use of canon fodder infantry and essentially expendable vehicles where the human pilot/crew were the most easily replaceable part, often pumped full of drugs. They sent their experimental Protomechs into battle with pilots hopped up on Feralize, which turned them into mindless berserkers. The replacement (and care and feeding) of their crews was not an issue.

So why would the Society spend their all ready limited time and resources to develop a technogy that their readily replaceable expendable crews were all ready doing?

[Maingunnery]

Earlier you wrote:
 

Regardless of the adjective, washouts, drug addicts, and mutated sub-humans are not the "perfect", "best", or any other kind of superior warrior.

These were all ways to bypass the traditional, time- and resource-intensive routes -- eugenics, artificial wombs, and intensive training and testing -- that the Clans took to create better warriors.  So clearly the Society was _not_ willing to go far to create better warriors, at least not under the pressures of the Wars of Reaving.

Maybe they intended to do differently after the WoR, but during their wartime existence, members of the Society took whatever shortcut they could avail themselves of to create military force, even when those shortcuts resulted in monsters.

If the Society was "thinking in warriors", then the bulk of their forces would not have been composed of SLDF tanks crewed by non-warrior caste members.

I think the evidence shows the exact opposite.  The Society did _not_ worship at the altar of the Warrior Caste, and because of that, they were willing to do whatever necessary to field a military capability during the WoR.  Drones fit well with this mentality.

If you're willing to take on the expense, time, cruelty, and horror of combat drugs and mutagenic virotherapies, why wouldn't you also have your weapons developers field some cheap drones en masse?

I don't know how, but you are completely misinterpreting my point.
They come from a culture that has no respect for drones, but did respect their own work.
If you were to suggest drones to them, they will likely laugh at you or shoot you for the insult.
And when they had to rebel they either, used their expertise to 'enhance' people, or just throw more people at the problem.

[Crow]

Y'all taking this way too seriously. For SCIENCE!

[Natasha Kerensky]

As said, there's no evidence at all that the Society had either a) access to drone tech...

... the Society to deploy Drone tech, they would need to in essence redevelop it from the ground up

TacOps gives the Clans access to drone (remote) technology.  Therefore, the Society had access to it.  The Society did _not_ have to develop drone technology, at least the remote control variety, from the ground up.

The Society could also have had access to more advanced drone technology.  The Society produced equipment, like the CLPS on the Cephalus, that was thought lost with the Star League.  It's possible that, like CLPS, the Society had preserved the SLDF's AI-controlled drone technology used on the Caspars and Voidseekers.

The former is canon.  The latter is speculative.

The second thing is, as said, the Society had plenty of human resources to draw from.

Quite the opposite.  As Herb commented a while back, the Society had small and irregular infantry formations precisely because they did _not_ have plenty of human resources to draw from.

They come from a culture that has no respect for drones

The Warrior Caste had no respect for drones because, if taken far enough, drones could replace the warriors' role in Clan culture.

But the Society had no respect for the Warrior Caste and was opposed to its rule.  The Society did _not_ share the values of the Clan culture they came from.  The Society wanted to supplant and replace the Warrior Caste.

Drones play right into that.

Y'all taking this way too seriously. For SCIENCE!

FOR SCIENCE!

Again, it's whatever folks like for their own games.  If drones don't fit with your Society or BT headcanon, then don't use them.

But I think the argument that no Society cell would ever, ever use drones goes way too far given what we know about the Society and drone technology in the BT universe.

YMMV...

[Maingunnery]

The Warrior Caste had no respect for drones because, if taken far enough, drones could replace the warriors' role in Clan culture.

But the Society had no respect for the Warrior Caste and was opposed to its rule.  The Society did _not_ share the values of the Clan culture they came from.  The Society wanted to supplant and replace the Warrior Caste.

Drones play right into that.

The Society see the Warrior Caste as a tool, and believes that the warriors should know their place, but other then that they both come from the same culture. And historically for them the SLDF defeated the best drones ever made, and the scientists made the warriors better then the SLDF.
There might be an argument for remote-controlled suicide drones, but the Society could get the same effects with either drugged up minions or stationary explosive traps.