Author Topic: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race  (Read 190109 times)

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #330 on: 24 June 2018, 04:54:08 »
Personally I vote against allowing Monitors. Can build some scary looking beasts without too much effort, and even if they couldn't leave the system they were built in, that system is now basically untouchable to anyone but the Hegemony.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #331 on: 24 June 2018, 15:30:36 »
Here is my turn for 2361-70. I hope you guys like reading.

Kiviar, I love the writing/fluff, and watching it impact the nation.  I also love thst you bought fighters to make sure you had enough to put on your recharge stations!

Fun reading.  Is what makes the exercise worthwhile.
« Last Edit: 24 June 2018, 15:54:22 by marcussmythe »

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #332 on: 24 June 2018, 17:11:58 »
Jester: Any word on your budget and designs this turn? I know I've been slow myself, but I think you're the last human player up, and the remaining NPC nations are fairly easy. (If you need a hand, just ask)

---

Terra Prime, Apollo
January 1, 2360

As part of the Rim Worlds Republic's "Twelfth Decade Initiative", First Consul Arabella Rowe is pleased to announce the plans for the Renaissance Initiative. In keeping with the Republic's known desire to increase commerce and peaceful colonization in its vicinity, a new series of stations and JumpShips will be installed over the next decade, promising single-day transportation between Apollo and Finmark, making stops at several Republic worlds en route. While so-called "command circuits" have previously been used by other realms on an ad-hoc basis, no other nation, fleet, or shipping line has yet created a regularly scheduled service of this nature.

According to First Consul Rowe, "This is an exciting development for the Republic. Our citizens and merchants can now get reliable, economical, and nearly instantaneous transit for themselves and their goods between a dozen of our planets, at guaranteed low prices. It's just one more way that our government is bringing you the Rim Worlds Advantage."

Minister of Trade Michael Durant added hopes for future expansion of the system: "Right now, this will be a weekly service across half the realm, which is already an amazing achievement. But if this is as popular as we expect it might be, we'll be looking to expand it to Timbuktu, or even beyond. We've also ensured that the system has sufficient capacity to increase to twice-weekly service with no need for additional station construction, so we're poised for some really amazing growth here. I'm very much looking forward to seeing what the future will bring."

For more information, please contact the Ministry of Trade's Galactic Commerce Office.

-30-

---

Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: Renaissance
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $201,595,000.00
Magazine Cost: $0.00
BV2: 14

Mass: 500,000
K-F Drive System: None
Power Plant: Station-Keeping Drive
Safe Thrust: 0
Maximum Thrust: 0
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
None

Class/Model/Name: Renaissance
Mass: 500,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 6,000
Thrust
Safe: 0
Maximum: 0
Controls: 500
K-F Hyperdrive: None (0 Integrity) 0
Jump Sail: (0 Integrity) 0
Structural Integrity: 1 5,000
Total Heat Sinks: 154 Single
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 5000 points 2,040
Fire Control Computers: 0
Armor: 0 pts Standard 0
Fore: 115
Fore-Left/Right: 115/115
Aft-Left/Right: 115/115
Aft: 115

Dropship Capacity: 0
Grav Decks:
Small: 3 150
Medium: 0
Large: 0
Escape Pods: 35 245
Life Boats: 35 245

Crew And Passengers:
25 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 250
120 Crew in 2nd Class Quarters 840
0 Gunners and Others in 2nd Class Quarters 0
180 Bay Personnel 0
27 1st Class Passengers 270
180 2nd Class Passengers 1,260 (Bay personnel)

(no weapons/ammo)

Number Equipment and Bays Mass Doors
76,000 Cargo, Standard 76,000 6
36 Bay Small Craft 7,200 9
4 Energy Storage Battery 400,000

Renaissance station R&D: $202m
14x Renaissance station: $2.828B
26x JumpShip: $13B
360x Fighter: $1.8B
Maintenance(@100%): $1.86B
Research: $310m

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #333 on: 24 June 2018, 19:09:39 »
Crap: Forgot fluff to this..

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61764.msg1423161#msg1423161

The Scapha was the Marian Hegemony's first homebuilt warship ever, while taking clues from the Draconis Combine Admiraty  Trojan-class ship. On Alphard, the Marian Arms Incorporated, henceforth MAI, was contacted to see if they could handle any type of ship construction. Receiving the word that they could, the Imperator immediately threw open the Aerarium Marianes, or Marian Treasury, and continued to pour Talents, local currency, into the shipyard until a vessel was completed. Named Scapha, or Ear in ancient roman, the ship was to be the " ear " of the Hegemony.

Meant to be seen at every planet in the micro-realm of space, the Scapha and her sister, the Defensor Fortis, both went on a 5 year shakedown-show off. Both being used for a show of force in hopes of showing that they, the Hegemony can ruffle feathers too. Built using 2 broadsides of twin Navis Tormenta X-class Autocannons, they were considered experimental at the time of first installments. As the class was on the drawing boards at MAI, it was conceived as an Aero-Carrier to handle the newly developed Falco( Falcon ), a medium weight Aerospace Fighter and the Buteo( Buzzard / Hawk ), another medium weight Aerospace Fighter, but in this case a bomber, as both are built using the same frame.

When it was originally proposed, the Scapha class Aero-Carrier was deemed too valuable to lose and had their aero-bays exchanged for the more powerful punch of the Tormenta-class. Keeping only twenty of the 200 purposed fighter limit, she's outfitted with the best the Hegemony can produce. The Parva Tormentis, or small cannons as know as Autocannon-5 class, was from the original design specs, as was the Point Defense Jejunium Iaculis, the " Fast Archer " Machine Guns. Assigning most to the side arcs in hopes of catching any unwanted targets in multiple fields of fire. While slow in speed she should be able to provide support, only time will tell.

TT
( All Latin names are from a quick Google search. )
« Last Edit: 24 June 2018, 19:15:20 by truetanker »
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Jester Motley

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #334 on: 24 June 2018, 21:37:19 »
Sorry, this was one of those never-ending weekends for me.  Coupled with starting a bit late in the week already, its taken me some time to get here. But I have my turn.


Turn 2: 2360-2370

Crunchy, non-fluff bits:
Budget: $89B
Maintenance total:  $6.711B

Upgrades:
Aldebaran upgrade (2>3): $30B

Design:
пивной пиво (Bringer of Beer) R&D: $7.507B

Construction:
10x Chongzhi: $3.38B
1x Qinru Zhe: $7.946B
2x Quzhujian: $11.996B
1x пивной пиво: $7,507B
1200x Fighters: $6B
360 x Small Craft: $3.6B
10x Light Dropships: 3B
Research: $0.353B

One new design this turn, the Cruise Ship/Fleet Collier пивной пиво (Bringer of Beer). 

Code: [Select]

Class/Model/Name: пивной пиво (Bringer of Beer)
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $7,507,618,000.00
Magazine Cost: $176,000.00
BV2: 4,508

Mass: 247,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 2
Maximum Thrust: 3
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
80 AC 2


Class/Model/Name: пивной пиво (Bringer of Beer)
Mass: 247,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 29,640.00
Thrust
Safe: 2
Maximum: 3
Controls: 618.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (7 Integrity) 111,768.00
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 43.00
Structural Integrity: 65 16,055.00
Total Heat Sinks: 288 Single
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 6250 points 1,275.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 120 pts Standard 200.00
Fore: 20
Fore-Left/Right: 20/20
Aft-Left/Right: 20/20
Aft: 20

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 0.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 10 5,000.00
Escape Pods: 500 3,500.00
Life Boats: 125 875.00

Crew And Passengers:
21 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 210.00
74 Crew in 1st Class Quarters 740.00
26 Gunners and Others in 1st Class Quarters 260.00
50 Bay Personnel 0.00
1600 1st Class Passengers 16,000.00
2nd Class Passengers 0.00
Steerage Passengers 0.00


Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
AC 2 Nose 10 20 (2-C) Long 60.00
AC 2 FR 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
AC 2 RBS 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
AC 2 AR 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
AC 2 FL 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
AC 2 LBS 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
AC 2 AL 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
AC 2 Aft 10 20 (2-C) 60.00


Ammo Rounds Mass
AC 2 Ammo 8000 177.78


Equipment Mass
NCSS Large 500.00

Perks:
Fire Control software has "Personality."



Fluffy stuff:

Surprise Merger to Bring Prosperity and Growth to the Capellan Zone 
12/03/2359- New Petersberg, Aldebaran, Tikonov Grand Union
  Feng Shui Ships announced they have completed brokering a deal with the Duchy of Liao, St. Ives Mercantile League, and the Capellan Commonality to begin production on a new line of Luxury Cruise ships to ferry the rich and famous as they tour the known universe.  While cautioning everyone present at the grand announcement that nothing had been set in stone, the president of Feng Shui, The Venerable Hyung Li, mentioned that on the best and finest materials would be used.  Platinum sinks, Gold Furniture, the main stairwell to be ballroom would be carved from a sing tree from the singing forest, and kept alive for the live of the ship.
  This reporter remains skeptical in light of her previous award winning series of investigative articles that resulted in nearly half of the ministry of taxes and licenses being indicted for racketeering, bribery, and war-profiteering.  However, the Venerable Mr. Hyung's charism and enthusiasm are hard to resist.


---

"Li, you can't be serious!  The cost overruns are killing us, they're bankrupting us!  Why did you expand the yards, and at such expense, when what we had was already twice as big as we needed to build these boondoggles!"

"Mr. Jonathan, please calm yourself.  I've explained this before, I am an investor.  I invest.  We will need those bigger yards.  I see big things coming, I see mergers and new friendships where enemies once stood.  I see distant enemies coming closer, and I see war.  War the likes we've not seen in our lifetime, in anyone's lifetime.  And we will be ready to profit from it."

"Bu-" 

"Stop.  Breath."

Vasily Jonathan drew a deep breath.  He held it for a count of 10, the slowly released it.  Twice more before he had himself under control.

"Yes, Li, I know that.  But the Duchy of Liao's finance minster has been asking questions.  Very pointed questions.  We promised luxury accomondations for 10,000, and we'll be lucking if we can fit a tenth that.  And the weapons!  Who's bright idea was it to use those Semi-automatic Cannon things?  They've been nothing but problems after problems, the holographic sights require constant maintenace, and the firecontrol software is MOTHERING people!  My lead engineer told me it wouldn't open the door to the fire control room unless he promised to wear a coat, as the local temperature was 'a bit chilly.'"

"Hm, I'll speak with the Finance Minister myself.  He probably wants another 'gift.'  The price of doing business these days, I'm afraid.  And I see nothing wrong with a computer that cares for its crew."

"Sir!  Its in space.  -40C at that.  Not even a parka would help with that.  But the computer was dead serious and wouldn't even listen to my engineer's arguments.  He nearly quit over that.  Said he'd rather spend a year with his Mother-in-law again, than talk to that computer.  He swore if he had to go back to firecon, he was taking an axe with him, and would reprogram her personality with it."

"Hm, high strung individual is he?"

"Not particularly.  That reminds me of another issue.  My engineer says the 'asteroid detection and avoidance' sensors we received for installation?  They're military grade.  There's no way we can afford that, not with how much Singing wood costs!"

"Ah, yes, well only the best for these ships, only the best.  We've said these ships would be the safest ships in the universe.  We'd call them unsinkable if these were blue water ships.  We would surely go out of business if one of our ships hit some debris that we hadn't see."  Li took a deep breath, grimaced, and looked directly into Vasily's eyes.  "Look, Jonathan, I know its a lot to ask, but please make it work.  More than you know depends on this.  The coming together of so many people, it's a terrifying thing, a wonderous thing, and its rife for opportunity.  And opportunity means profit.  I will have that profit."

"Yes, Venerable Hyung Li, yes sir."

---


Somewhere, deep underground, secret and secure.  Mid summer, 2365

"Lon-Duk, your team will debark when the Bringer of Whiskey reaches Terra Firma.  Remember, we don't want to risk war with the Heghogs, so its passive surviellance only.  No active engagements, no hacking, and absolutely no sabotage.  I remember what you did on that mission on Kentares IV, and I don't want another building blown up.  And no, not even if the entire High Command really WAS in the building.  We can't risk provoking the Hegemony.  On the other hand.  Sasha, your team has carte blanche.  Go nuts.  Just.  Don't.  Get.  Caught.  Your primary drop point is Irian.  The so called Free Worlders have shipyards there.  Consider them a prime target.  There are several weapons manufactures, and at least 2 research think-tanks there.  Hack, Assassinate, Sabotage, whatever it takes.  We have credible intelligence that war is coming.  Anything we can do to slow it down, helps us.  We're badly behind, guns, tanks, ships, especially warships, our fellow Capellans need time.  And I aim to give it to them."

"Sarge?"

"Yeah Shin?"

"Its a cruise ship Sarge...  I know we're supposed to blend in, but...  are the usual low-profile rules in effect?  No sex, no drugs, no spacefunk?"

"Shin, your mother dropped you on your head, didn't she?  No, of course they're not in effect.  You could hardly "blend in" with the rich and wealthy if you didn't act like they do, the whoring high drunk inbred elitists!  But I'll have your head as my personal toilet if any of you misbegotten children crew up these missions cause you got talky-talky cause some bit of fluff did the spanky-my-wanky with you.  Got it!"

"SARGENT YES SARGENT!"

---

[excerpt from the 3012 Encyclopedia Brown's History of the Liao Dynasty, pgs 866-867]
In 2361, the first of a long line of trans-world interstellar cruise ships was launched.  Named "Bringer of Beer" the Victorian Royal Carnival Cruise line ran her, and 4 of her sister ships, for nearly a century of service to the rich and famous.  DeadHead Bob, Jamus Johnanson-Lee, even Buckaroo Banzai toured on one of the Bringer ships.  Less known about her class was that Duke Franco Liao directed the building of the ships, entrusting Hyung Li, a childhood friend and close confidant to see it through.  Envisioned as both an economic aid in boosting the Duchy and Capellan economy, it served several duties for the fledgling navy from providing an extensive covert operations and intelligence platform to service as a Fleet Collier and Recreation ship.  These last two services were truly critical to the Duke's needs.  The ships of the Capellan navy, especially the "Home Defense" fleet, were infamous for how bad serving on them was.  No kitchens on some vessels meant a month of MREs.  No grav decks, mandatory 4 and even 5 man hot-bunking, limited or no recreation areas.  This had caused a severe morale problem for the Navy, getting so bad that it lead to two mutinies, and causing recruitment to fall to all time lows.  The Duke hoped to conteract the morale problem by providing a differeance in extremes.  While service on ship was hot, miserable, and nasty, it was 1 or 2 week stints, and earned the men the minimum of equal time on a Bringer of Beer class ship.  With nothing but first class accomodations, single occupancy rooms, silver plated heads, even spas and "houses of relaxation," it was literally heaven and hell for the Navy.  Unfortunately for the Duke, the outbreak of war put a damper on non-essential construction, leaving a shortage of vessels to server the "1 week on, 1 week off" promised the sailers.  Worse, since the ships were built with plenty of cargo space to accomodate wealthy, they were pressed more and more into the Fleet Collier mode, and the occasional losses incurred caused more shortages.  Still, the sailers understood that war meant shortages, that for the greater good, they may have to suffer some, but knowing that eventually they'd get some time on a Bringer's decks made all the difference for the Capellans.

---

To: Duke Franco Liao, Chancellor of the Capellan Confederation
From: The Honorable Admiral, Marko Ramius

Franco,

I have grave news my friend.  I just got the latest intelligence reports from BNI about the Free Worlder's naval construction and its not good.  If they decide to invade, we don't have the hulls to stop them.  We need more ships of the line.  We need more hulls, and we need bigger hulls!  Despite how well the Qinru Zhe did, raiding is not going to save us.  I've attached the dispatches and analysis, but the summary is, if you don't get me more throw-weight, those raiders Horace is gangbusters over won't have any ports to come back to!

Your friend,
Marko.

---
To: Duke Franco Liao, Chancellor of the Capellan Confederation
From: The Venerable Admiral, Horace Shin-Hu

Chancellor Liao,
  In my humblest way, I do ask that you consider the words of our ancestors, Sun-Tzu, that when one is on dangerous groud, one must maneuver.  It is with the deepest apologies that I must say that The Honorable Admiral's turtle strategies will only serve to tempt our enemies more.  His slow ships will not let us manuever.  To hit our enemy where they do not expect it!  To raid their supplies, so that they may not build their ships.  To sieze their shipping, making the very will of their people to bend to us, to cry out against war.  We must strike them, force the initiative, keep them on their heels, and not let them take a breadth.  Let them spread thier ships far and wide, in penny-packets, demanded by their people who scream "protect us!"  That, in this humble servants eyes, is our own option.

Your humble eternal servent,
The Venerable Admiral, Horace Shin-Hu

---

[excerpt from the 3012 Encyclopedia Brown's History of the Liao Dynasty, pg 820]
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.  As the ancient proverb warns, It was interesting times.  The merger of so many people, polities, and societies was chaos.  That war followed so close on its heels only amplified things.  And like all times of great chaos, great things happened, some good, some bad.  Great men rose, great men fell.  Fortunes were made and lost, and lost and made.  With so much political chaos, the fledgling Capellan Navy had little cohesion, run and ruled by fiefdoms of bureaucracy, rife with corruption and greed.  And yet, there were individuals, Admirals and Captains, Sailors and Marines, who rose above the flotsam, and siezed the day.


(I'm not promising fluff like this again...  but I wanted to 'explain' some things while entertaining, and set the stage for my assuming the helm)

Jester Motley

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #335 on: 24 June 2018, 21:45:56 »
Meant to put a fleet total in my crunchy bits:

At the end of turn 2, I show:
Fighters: 1840
Small Craft: 1167
Light DS: 88
Jumpship: 3
Chongzhi: 22
Qinru Zhe: 3
Quzhujian: 4
Bringer of Beer: 1  (6 built, 5 sold, no "profit" due to corruption, thus fluff only effects.)
Shipyards
3x Level 1
2x Level 2
1x Level 3


---

Fleet doctrine is... "mixed" due to the chaos.  Both "raid them" with the Qinru Zhe, and "Stand fast" with the Quzhujian are the competing doctrines of the day.  Feel free to use and abuse that and the "chaos."

Atarlost

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #336 on: 24 June 2018, 22:24:07 »
I have a counter proposal. I have been researching advanced kf drive systems. In doing SI I have had several conversations with the writers and learned a few things. While there really isn't a valid rational from a technology point of view for lack of monitors there is a very real danger of them replacing true warships without serious limiting factors.

Only if you have no concept of what a monitor is.  An immobile unit can never replace a mobile unit. 

Because of the nature of warship keels and and kf drive subsystems like docking collars and kf booms constructing a monitor is far more that just replacing the kf drive with a more reinforced internal structure. Building a monitor requires fusing both warship and dropship construction methods and requires very high end shipyard facilities class 4 or better at least. While theoretically the limits on monitor size are the same s warships moving any craft larger than 300,000 tons becomes problematic because of the collar requierments. Such vessels are also ruinously expensive due to the size of their custom kf booms. Despite being significantly heavier than a equal tonnage warship spaceframe, a monitor spaceframe lack the same rigidity of their warship counterparts. This has the net effect of making the spaceframe more vulnerable to damage than that of a standard warship. Crew requirements are also higher though this was a foreseen consequence because of the increased numbers of weapons and the additional mantaince these ships required due too unique internal structure.

This is all absurd.  A monitor is not a dropship.  It needs none of this junk.  Lacking it is in fact the defining characteristic of a monitor.  Any function the KF core performs apart from FTL can be achieved more cheaply by substituting another metal.  Germanium's mechanical and thermal properties are actually rather poor.  As such it is impossible to justify any penalty to monitors built like warships without germanium. 

Your "counterproposal" is also a lot of work and monitor rules that require a lot of work have already been rejected by the GM. 

Personally I vote against allowing Monitors. Can build some scary looking beasts without too much effort, and even if they couldn't leave the system they were built in, that system is now basically untouchable to anyone but the Hegemony.

Alsadius has already shown the math for why this is false.  A small minority of systems might be defended to such a degree if the cost multiplier for monitors was low enough, but to do so would consume the naval budget required for mobile units to defend the rest of the nation and securing only those few shipyard systems while losing the rest of the nation and tax base would still represent defeat. 

The only reason the Terran Hegemony can afford to widely deploy CASPAR units is that they're hijacking the naval budget of the far larger and wealthier Star League.  The Taurian Concordat might be able to support a monitor defense at the Hyades Cluster chokepoint based on resources within the cluster.  Anyone else subjects themselves to defeat in detail by adopting a purely static defensive posture and even the Taurians would have to write off most of their worlds.  And winning the Reunification War would probably still take a miracle even with the munchiest monitor rules ever proposed.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #337 on: 24 June 2018, 22:46:15 »
Can we split the monitor discussion, please?

Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #338 on: 25 June 2018, 00:53:31 »
Only if you have no concept of what a monitor is.  An immobile unit can never replace a mobile unit. 

This is all absurd.  A monitor is not a dropship.  It needs none of this junk.  Lacking it is in fact the defining characteristic of a monitor.  Any function the KF core performs apart from FTL can be achieved more cheaply by substituting another metal.  Germanium's mechanical and thermal properties are actually rather poor.  As such it is impossible to justify any penalty to monitors built like warships without germanium. 

Your "counterproposal" is also a lot of work and monitor rules that require a lot of work have already been rejected by the GM. 

I clearly didn't make the information clear enough if you have misunderstood so greatly. I am not purposing an immobile vehicle. It has a transit drive like any warship. What it lacks is ftl.

Second there is far more to a kf drive than just the germanium/titanium core. There is also the hyperspace initiator and a field distribution network that runs throughout the spaceframe from the core to the surface of the ship ensuring that all of the ship transits during a jump. Dropship docking collars are tied directly into this network by special linkages making them a component of the drive as well. This entire system must be excluded during monitor construction. This necessitates structural reinforcement to the entire spaceframe, even with your pseudo-core in place.

Thirdly since monitors lack ftl there is a need of outside ftl transport if it is to be deployed anywhere other than in the system that it was constructed in. This means fitting a kf boom to the monitor.  Much to my surprise I was told that kf booms are not a separate peice of equipment but an integral part of the ships structural frame work. This means that if you intend to move your monitor anywhere outside the yard system then the spaceframe must be constructed in the same manner as a Dropships spaceframe in as much as you are including the kf boom components in it.

Fourth a pseudo core is dead weight that will account for a significant amount of your total available tonnage yet unlike the kf drive will serve no functional purpose. This negates any advantages of the monitor concept. With tonnage at a premium due to the smaller size of the hull any massive tonnage sinks that don't directly benefit the design won't get included.

Now at this point this is all fluff all be it well researched fluff still just fluff.  Given that you didn't actually quote the rules I posted I'm uncertain whether you simply didn't see them or if there's something in the simple alteration to basic warship construction rules you didn't understand and there for can't other any clarification. Any other questions?

Smegish

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #339 on: 25 June 2018, 01:22:42 »
Believe the Bringer of Beer is a little off. Warships need to be in 10,000 ton increments.

Other than that, great work

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #340 on: 25 June 2018, 10:27:52 »
Believe the Bringer of Beer is a little off. Warships need to be in 10,000 ton increments.

Other than that, great work

I didnt even notice that!

I cant imagine it having any impact on the performance of the 'sphere's largest cruise liner.  Particularly like the 'we need GREAT Meteor Detection' excuse for a LNCSS.

Jester Motley

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #341 on: 25 June 2018, 11:45:46 »
I'm new to shipbuilding with the new rules.  Let's just say I still have an original first run 2750, and there's a ton of "notes" on "warship varients" penciled into it.  So I'm picking up a lot of the new and additional rules on the fly, and wasn't aware that warships had to be in 10kt increments.  Are the official ships just "special" or did they get retconned/rebuilt in a later supplement?  I'm asking cause a few of the canon ships don't follow that rule.  The Vincent, for instance, is 412kt, and the Bug-eye is 6.1kt.

I was just trying to be off on numbers to avoid "min/max" syndrome, which I may or may not have come down with on occasion.  (I once refit all the 3025 mechs equipped with lrm 20s, with lrm5s because they're more mass efficient...  I had to stop that, it annoyed everyone with all the dice rolls from a lance of LRM Carriers...  And I'm sure everyone at some point has tried the MG mech... All crits filled with nothing but MGs, a ton or two of ammo, big engine, tons of armor...  In my defense I was... 13?)

Rebuilt:
Code: [Select]
Class/Model/Name: пивной пиво (Bringer of Beer)
Tech: Inner Sphere
Ship Cost: $7,523,462,000.00
Magazine Cost: $176,000.00
BV2: 3,708

Mass: 250,000
K-F Drive System: Compact
Power Plant: Maneuvering Drive
Safe Thrust: 2
Maximum Thrust: 3
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
80 AC 2


Class/Model/Name: пивной пиво (Bringer of Beer)
Mass: 250,000

Equipment: Mass
Drive: 30,000.00
Thrust
Safe: 2
Maximum: 3
Controls: 625.00
K-F Hyperdrive: Compact (7 Integrity) 113,125.00
Jump Sail: (4 Integrity) 43.00
Structural Integrity: 65 16,250.00
Total Heat Sinks: 289 Single
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 3125 points 1,275.00
Fire Control Computers: 0.00
Armor: 80 pts Standard 200.00
Fore: 20
Fore-Left/Right: 20/20
Aft-Left/Right: 20/20
Aft: 20

Dropship Capacity: 2 2,000.00
Grav Decks:
Small: 0.00
Medium: 0.00
Large: 10 5,000.00
Escape Pods: 500 3,500.00
Life Boats: 125 875.00

Crew And Passengers:
21 Officers in 1st Class Quarters 210.00
74 Crew in 1st Class Quarters 740.00
26 Gunners and Others in 1st Class Quarters 260.00
50 Bay Personnel 0.00
1650 1st Class Passengers 16,500.00
2nd Class Passengers 0.00
Steerage Passengers 0.00


# Weapons Loc Heat Damage Range Mass
10 AC 2 Nose 10 20 (2-C) Long 60.00
10 AC 2 FR 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
10 AC 2 RBS 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
10 AC 2 AR 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
10 AC 2 FL 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
10 AC 2 LBS 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
10 AC 2 AL 10 20 (2-C) 60.00
10 AC 2 Aft 10 20 (2-C) 60.00

Ammo Rounds Mass
AC 2 Ammo 8000 177.78

Equipment Mass
NCSS Large 500.00



This changed the price by +$16M, doubled for first ship syndrome, and I'll take the 32M hit as a deficit to keep you from having to rework any tech rolling you might have done already.  Sorry about that.

Vition2

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #342 on: 25 June 2018, 13:30:42 »
I'm new to shipbuilding with the new rules.  Let's just say I still have an original first run 2750, and there's a ton of "notes" on "warship varients" penciled into it.  So I'm picking up a lot of the new and additional rules on the fly, and wasn't aware that warships had to be in 10kt increments.  Are the official ships just "special" or did they get retconned/rebuilt in a later supplement?  I'm asking cause a few of the canon ships don't follow that rule.  The Vincent, for instance, is 412kt, and the Bug-eye is 6.1kt.

Most of them were retconned up to the nearest 10kt.  One of the construction rules sets that warships were created using shifted the increments to 10kts, but the original rules allowed increments as low as 1kt.  The bug-eye may still be 6.1kt, it and I think one other warship are special cases as they are also below 100kt.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #343 on: 25 June 2018, 17:09:30 »
Not a player but following this and have to say the fluff for the пивной пиво (Bringer of Beer) made me  ;D even if it was a Capellan Design, Well Done.
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

truetanker

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  • Clan Hells Horses 666th Mech. Assualt Cluster
Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #344 on: 25 June 2018, 18:05:12 »
Alsadius : PM sent, kinda urgent really.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

Jester Motley

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #345 on: 25 June 2018, 23:52:42 »
@DOC_Agren-  Thank you!  That makes the effort worth it.  Glad I could amuse and entertain.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #346 on: 26 June 2018, 08:57:37 »
A communique from a group describing itself as "The Provisional Government of the Principality of Rasalhague" has been made public.

Quote
Five years after the magnificent success of the Trondheim operation in 2355 that killed over three times its own weight of forces, the Snake fleet still fears us. They thought that we'd be easy pickings for them - that we'd roll over and die when they showed up. Well, they've learned the error of their ways! They know that we have claws, and that they can't just walk all over us. The heroes of New Bergen have armed our forces, and the heroes of Trondheim have showed us that even their invading fleets can be slaughtered too.

Who do the Snakes deploy their fleets against? They say we're defeated, but they have as many ships devoted to fighting little Rasalhague as they do to whole empires! They call us weak, but they know the truth - each of us fights with the strength of ten! Our forces on our planets are bleeding their garrisons, and our forces in the air and in space are bleeding their fleets. And they will keep bleeding until they leave. We wanted peace, but they've given us thirty years of war instead. And whether it takes thirty more, or three hundred more, or three thousand more, they will never get peace until they give us back what is rightly ours!

- Seija Mannerheim, Elected Princess (Interim) of Rasalhague

---

200x fighter, of course.

Cryhavok101

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #347 on: 26 June 2018, 09:20:26 »
and the Bug-eye is 6.1kt.

The Bug-eye uses a slightly different set of rules than other warships, because it has a sub-compact K-F drive rather than a warship's normal compact K-F drive. Ships with Sub-Compact K-F drives are built in the 5000 to 25000 ton range, and if I remember correctly, are built to the nearest 100 tons.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #348 on: 27 June 2018, 04:07:14 »
The United Hindu Collective has 17 planets and 6x Pratham in service right now(two of which are at Panpour), so they'll build 12 more to ensure there's at least one per world. They'll also invest in small craft and fighters to fill the stations and to act as system-defence forces, and a set of JumpShips to ferry around the DropShips they bought last turn.

Maintenance(@150%): $2.735B
12x Pratham: $6.06B
1200x fighter: $6B
100x small craft: $1B
8x JumpShip: $4B
Research: $205m

---

The Taurian Concordat is somewhat outside the usual Inner Sphere information net, so they're not entirely aware of how out-gunned their Independance class is. As such, they'll build another, plus a bunch of defensive forces.

Maintenance(@100%): $527m
1x Independence: $4.567B
468x fighter: $2.34B
8x small craft: $80m
1x DropShip: $300m
Research: $186m

(Saved for R&D next turn = $2B)

---

Apparently, the post below was exceeding character length limits with the latest battle added in. As such, I'll move some of that post up to here.

Turn 2: 2360-2369

Previous turn: 2350-2359

Player Turns:
Lyran Commonwealth: Budget $80B.
Free Worlds League: Budget $100B.
Draconis Combine: Budget $100B.
Marian Hegemony: Budget $10B. (Extra Fluff)
Federated Suns: Budget $91B.
Capellan Confederation: Budget $89B. (Fluff, Budget, Design, Doctrine)

NPC Turns:
Terran Hegemony: Budget $750B.
United Hindu Collective: Budget $20B.
Rim Worlds Republic: Budget $20B.
Taurian Concordat: Budget $10B.
Principality of Rasalhague: Budget $1B.

Astropolitical Summary
- Seluk Tucas of the Capellan Commonality succeeded beyond his wildest dreams with his efforts to unify the nearby nations. The Capellan region came together in mid-2360 to form the "Capellan Confederation", a loose collective of nations dedicated to mutual defence and peaceful co-existence. While it was not yet a true nation, having a single political structure at the head of all Capellan realms was to prove a major unifying factor over time. This alliance was also cemented by a marriage between Tucas' daughter Caroline with Franco Liao, Duke of Liao.

- In late 2360, a survey mission led by Commander Tracy Ashton Pendelton of the Taurian Navy discovers a prison on the Federated Suns world of Tentativa with over 15,000 prisoners of war from the recent invasion of the Tikonov Grand Union. Disgusted at the sight of the prisoners being used as little better than slave labourers, she and her crew managed to incite an uprising among the prisoners, and after heroic efforts to jury-rig sufficient life support to get the prisoners off-world, the surviving prisoners are freed and sent back to their homeworlds.

- In 2363, Seluk Tucas recalls his brother Dmitri from his position as Ambassador to the Federated Suns, but Dmitri's ship vanishes mysteriously en route, and Dmitri is never found. The Capellan forces mobilize against the threat, planning a major invasion of the world of Lee. However, the Capellan forces were betrayed, and eight full regiments of Davion troops were ready on-planet when the Capellans arrived, which led to the Capellan forces being nearly annihilated. The fiasco leads to the fall of Tucas from power, as well as the arrest and eventual trial of Alexi Nimzovich, Premiere of the Sarna Supremacy, who had been a major opponent of Tucas. While Nimzovich was acquitted, he never again held office. (Note: To keep the ambush secret, no naval forces were used, which means that the defenders could not stop the DropShips from taking off again. As such, this battle has no effect on either navy)

- After the Battle of Lee, the Federated Suns began to feel that a major "peacekeeping" operation was needed in the Capellan regions. The Davion forces advanced on several border worlds, but encountered unexpected degrees of resistance from the locals, who inexplicably saw their forces as aggressors.

- The Marian Hegemony had built up a fleet for conquest, and to gain additional realms to control, so by 2366 it had set its sights on the nearby Lothian League. While the Marians had tremendous difficulty gathering sufficient merchant JumpShips to allow a meaningful invasion force to be delivered to Lothario, they eventually managed to scrape up enough force to make the attempt. Their ground forces were substantially outnumbered by the defenders, but with total space superiority allowing them to call down generous orbital fire support, no Lothian ground force could stand long against the Marian invaders. The Lothians, rather than fighting a doomed guerrilla war that would tear apart their planets, decided to resist the invaders through bureaucracy - malicious compliance, sit-down strikes, short-term stress leave, paperwork tangles, and simply ignoring the dictates of the Marians became the norm across the Lothian systems almost overnight. Due to the small ground forces at the Marian's disposal, direct enforcement of decrees was virtually impossible, and it rapidly became clear that the terrifying orbital bombardments which had devastated the defending legions would never be used against Lothian cities that did not openly rebel for fear of destroying their prize. The Marians carted off some loot, and had the ability to collect a moderate amount of taxes, but the planets proved shockingly stubborn against the invaders in a way that nobody had expected to see.

OOC: I know you wanted to hit the Illyrian Palatinate too, but you're a one-world nation and those are more like ten worlds in total. Since they have no navy, I can't give you any worthwhile naval battles, but you're going to have a few problems hit you even so. Besides, this way you'll have some extra combat to keep you busy in future turns - it can't all be pirate-squashing. So IMO, you're going to take some time to digest these gains.

Also OOC: I wanted to call this "Mar(s)ian Attacks!", per the comments below, but I couldn't find a way to fit it in. :(


- The Free Worlds League, seeing the newly minted "Capellan Confederation" as a sham that would never withstand a serious attack from outside given their embarrassment at Lee, and seeing that they're occupied with the Federated Suns attack, decide to assault several border worlds in 2366. Under pressure from the attack, the Capellan Commonality adopts a new, much more centralized constitution in 2367, giving its leader, Duke Francis Liao, significantly more military authority.

- A Federated Suns survey fleet jumps into Taurus in late 2369. While they had maps implying the world was likely colonized, they were shocked to see how thoroughly industrialized the system was, with asteroid mining operations exceeding those in some Terran systems. Believing that no major realm had any worlds in that sector, the immediate assumption of a very well-organized pirate force is immediately made, though after listening to broadcasts in system while waiting for their drive to charge, it becomes clear that this is a permanent base, and suspicions of Capellan colonial expansion become the leading theory among the crew. Before a Taurian ship can reach them to investigate, the survey ship jumps out of system and immediately heads back to report their discovery to New Avalon.

- In 2369, the Draconis Combine pronounces the Rasalhague resistance to be at an end, and withdraws the bulk of their forces from the region. Scattered hold-outs would continue to make trouble for years to come, but never again would major combat forces be arrayed against the Combine by the Rasalhague rebels. Rasalhague Consortium Eliminated
« Last Edit: 05 July 2018, 11:04:59 by Alsadius »

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #349 on: 27 June 2018, 05:25:53 »
Combat Results
The Great Rasalhague Ambush
The last major naval offensive of the Rasalhague rebellion took place in 2362. The Rasalhague commanders once again assembled a strike force in secret, this time on their old capital of Rasalhague. In addition to a large number of old fighters(suspected to be misappropriated surplus from the Terran fighter fleet update program), the Rasalhague leaders managed to convince or coerce large numbers of civilians to use private aircraft as decoys. The Rasalhague plan relied on staying within the atmosphere, to keep the Draconis fleet too far away to usefully support their landing DropShips, and attempted to once again kill large numbers of DropShips full of landing troops and supplies. Unfortunately for the Rasalhague forces, the commander was somewhat desperate for operating bases for this impromptu air force, and had some of his units take off from a base in an adjacent province. This base was in a different time zone, and the commander was too headstrong to listen to the objections of his subordinates. As such, the first 13 fighters took off an hour before any of the other forces. While they realized their error before launching their attack run, the anomalous movement tipped off the Draconis fleet.

While the Draconis forces did not realize the size of the arrayed Rasalhague forces, they had learned from their mistake in 2355, and remained on alert until the real attack took place. Once the true attack took off, the commander of the Draconis fleet took the Atago and the Luthien as close to the atmosphere as was safe, and launched a barrage of naval laser fire against the Rasalahaguers in support of his DropShips, as well as launching a over a hundred of his own fighters to support his landing units. A gigantic missile barrage of almost four hundred Barracudas was launched against the DropShips. The Draconis fighters and the point defences of the DropShips managed to shoot down over half the attack, and the poor storage conditions of the Rasalhague missiles meant that a third of the rest malfunctioned. However, the remaining 117 missiles did tremendous damage to the DropShips, destroying over a dozen outright and crippling five more.

Once the fighters had fired their missiles, they were once again nimble enough for serious combat, and the resulting combat rapidly devolved into was a wild furball. Over a hundred light civilian craft were slaughtered while totally unable to defend themselves, but even with this diversion of fire, the experience and training of the Draconis pilots began to tell. Despite being outnumbered two to one, they almost managed to hold their own even without their supporting fire, and with the power of the WarShips added in, they eventually forced the Rasalhaguers to flee. While the original Rasalhague plan had called for the fighters to re-arm and attack other units, their inability to defeat the Draconis fleet outright meant that they were unable to break contact, and most of the Rasalhague units were followed back to their bases. The resulting orbital bombardments killed over ten thousand civilians, as well as an unlucky squad of Draconis military police who had been attempting to investigate potential rebel activity, but they broke the back of the resistance fleet. Only three pilots took to the air for a second strike. Seeing the forces arrayed against them, and realizing that the Draconis fleet was offering them no quarter after their attack on defenceless ground troops that the Draconis fleet had been protecting, they flew their craft into the planetary militia headquarters as a final protest against the hated invaders.

Losses:
Draconis Combine = 14x DropShip, 31x fighter.
Rasalhague Consortium = 200x fighter.

The Peacekeeping War
The peacekeeping mission to various major Capellan worlds encountered very stiff resistance from the Capellan ground forces, who seemed surprisingly averse to peace. Fully two-thirds of the Federated Suns fleet was moved in to assist with the operation, rendering substantial amounts of direct orbital assistance to the planet of Highspire before the Capellans could mobilize their fleet. Duke Francis Liao was eager to prove that his newly-allied realm was no paper tiger, and dedicated the entire Capellan fleet to operations against the Federated Suns. Two Quinru Zhe raiders were dispatched to wreck FedSuns infrastructure and trade, while the remaining fleet of four Quzhujian destroyers with one Qinru Zhe as escort were used as a compact fighting force to beat the "invaders" back.

The main clash between these two powerful fleets took place over the world of Tikonov. An escaping JumpShip brought word that the AFFS was burning towards the planet, and the Capellans jumped to a pirate point to intercept. However, disaster struck for the Capellans when the navigator aboard one of their Quzhujians mis-calculated the jump, and the resulting error stranded the ship deep in the outer system, too far away to take part in the battle. The Federated Suns admiral, eager not to replicate the mistakes of the late Admiral Arthur, had many of his fighters and small craft on scout duty, and caught wind of the Capellan fleet far outside weapons range, giving his forces a chance to prepare.

Knowing that his fighters were likely to be outnumbered, and suspecting that the Capellans would use their fighters to engage in a massive anti-shipping strike, he loaded his fighters for anti-fighter operations and set them lying in wait well ahead of his ships to intercept the Capellan attackers. The tactic was a stunning success - despite being outnumbered three to one, the Capellan fighters were badly weighed down by their heavy Killer Whales and White Sharks, and were unable to maneuver when the Barracudas rained down upon them. Some pilots fired their missiles from well beyond effective range, and a few even attempted to use the anti-shipping missiles against the FedSuns fighters(with little success), but many tried to press home the original attack, and died before they could. The FedSuns fighter pilots bled for their success, but the numerical advantage of the Capellan forces was whittled down substantially, and the remaining forces were not sufficient for the next strike to pose a serious threat to naval vessels without the fleet supporting them. Eighty missiles were still launched within combat range, but with only a quarter of the planned barrage being fired, the defences of the AFFS fleet were sufficient to stop them without excessive damage - the FSS Galahad suffered moderate engine damage, but the armor of the ships remained intact, if pockmarked.

Both sides paused to collect their battered fighter wings and to assess their damage. The Capellan commander knew his fleet to be outnumbered, especially with the loss of one of his destroyers, and prepared to fall back and lick his wounds, but when the AFFS fleet slowed down to keep pace with the damaged Galahad, he saw his chance to perhaps salvage the battle. Knowing that his ships all had longer ranges than his opponents, and believing that he may now be able to hold the range open(or at least to break contact with part of the enemy fleet if he needed to), he chanced a continuation of the fight. The Capellan plan was simple, as these things go - hold the fighters close to the fleet, prevent enemy fighters from attacking them while they were vulnerable, and try to replicate the success of the Qinru Zhe a decade prior with the addition of a major missile strike.

Seeing that he held the advantage of numbers and that the teeth had been pulled from the Capellan fighter wings, the Davion re-armed his fighters for an attack on the enemy fleet and closed the range slowly. Unsurprisingly, the Capellans tried to hold the battle at extreme range and whittle him down with their lasers, but unlike the last time these fleets met, the laser fire was barely more effective than his own shots, despite the superior range of their guns. Both sides attempted missile attacks, but neither side wanted to waste their limited ammunition on such distant shots. After the pattern had been established - barrage and feint, launch and fall back, but never actually press home an attack - the Davions made their move. Letting the wounded Galahad fall behind somewhat, the fleet leapt towards its opponents at full emergency power. The Capellans fell back, of course, but in so doing they left left their poorly-armed aft sections pointed at the enemy, and the enemy took advantage. Finally throwing the long-hoarded fighter missiles into the fight, a wave of heavy missiles swept towards the rearmost Quzhujian, CCS Elias Liao, and its aft section was badly battered. Losing half its acceleration almost instantly, the Capellans were left with a cruel dilemma of abandoning a quarter of their fleet or turning back to defend it. Historians will long debate the choice he faced, but when he faced it he turned his fleet around with no hesitation.

Heavy ship-killers flew from destroyers and fighters alike, as barrages larger than the original fighter strike flew out as fast as tubes could be loaded. Fighters unloaded their missiles, like the Davions had a minute before, and then launched themselves into the melee. In the three great destroyers, a dozen and a half of the largest guns ever used in human warfare fired their first shots in anger. However, attempting to defend their lamed ally had deprived them of their great advantage of range, and the sheer mountains of amour on the Albion and Galahad designs began to tell. They too had autocannons, but when those hammer blows began to land their guns kept firing while the Capellans were cut down. When the fleets had closed ranges so tightly that even point defence guns were strafing enemy fleet units, the mighty Galahad-class FSS Percival fired full broadsides into enemy units and tore half a dozen gaping holes into the Qinru Zhe in a particularly successful broadside.

For as long as Capellan missile supplies held out, their fleet scored important successes. Capellan fighter strikes endured horrible losses to cripple the Galahad's point-defence systems with their cannons as the fleet pounded the Albion-class FSS Rostock into scrap, and then a fresh wave of armor-piercing White Sharks savaged the now-defenceless Percival while the fighters turned on the Rostock to finish the job. However, despite the staggering damage being dished out, the AFFS ships were too tough to destroy quickly, and speed was of the essence. The Qinru Zhe had been crippled and was completely unable to fight, and the enemy was focusing its fire on the Elias Liao, which was buckling under the pressure.

Almost simultaneously, the Elias Liao's forward autocannon magazine exploded and the Albion's primary fusion reactor lost magnetic containment. Both ships were destroyed instantly, and the only survivor from either ship's complement was a rookie fighter pilot from the Elias Liao. The twin explosions blinded most sensors in the fleet, but the remnants of the Qinru Zhe's sensor system noticed something. Galahad was returning. Lamed by an engine hit, but still as well-armed as the day she was launched, the Galahad showed up on Capellan scanners as the dust cleared, and finally the Capellans took to their heels. The Qinru Zhe was unable to leave, and its crew abandoned and scuttled their ship to deny the Davions their prize, but the two remaining Quzhujians scooped up the remaining fighters and headed away from the planet, leaving the defenseless citizens of Tikonov in the hands of the invading peacekeepers.

Losses:
Capellan Confederation = 1x Quzhujian, 1x Qinru Zhe, 117x fighter
Federated Suns = 1x Albion, 44x fighter. Significant damage to 1x Galahad - $2B repair cost

Guerre de Course
While the Capellans reserved one of their Qinru Zhe raiders as a "battlecruiser" for their main fleet, the other two were detailed to fulfill the design's original role of commerce raiding against the Federated Suns. The CCS Mu was tasked with raids in the area of Muskegon, and the CCS Fangzhou was sent towards Carmacks further south. Both were given orders to preserve their commands if at all possible, and to focus on hitting the softest targets they could find - the goal was to cause pain in New Avalon, but the primary fleet combat was to take place elsewhere, and the realm was still too imperiled with too small a fleet to allow excessive chances to be taken.

The Fangzhou's raids were generally successful, if undramatic. Due to the deployment of the main Federated Suns fleet to the warzone around Tikonov, they encountered shockingly little resistance. Instead of remaining at the jump point to snap up JumpShips, the Fangzhou's captain headed in-system to destroy as much civil infrastructure as possible. A raid in-system in Carmacks destroyed three civilian space stations around the planet after giving the crews time to evacuate, though the captain elected not to bombard the planet itself for fear of causing excessive civilian casualties. An asteroid-mining operation in Ogilvie was destroyed, and an attack on Sekulmun could find no targets worthy of firing on. The most dramatic moment came when jumping into the old pirate haven of Kluane - the ship landed within sensor range of a JumpShip that was waiting with sails furled, apparently waiting for a laggard DropShip. The JumpShip jumped away almost immediately, long before the Fangzhou could get into combat range, but the ship began burning back towards the planet looking for the DropShip as a prize. The same engine trouble that led to the ship being late in the first place meant it couldn't avoid the Fangzhou, and it was boarded, the crew imprisoned for the duration of the trip back to the planet, and the ship destroyed. By this point, low on fuel from the long burns and the need to recharge the jump drive by running the reactor at maximum capacity, the ship returned home with just over a billion in damage inflicted to the civilian economy of the Federated Suns.

The Mu's raiding mission was shorter and much sharper. Within minutes of leaving Capellan space and arriving at the Amiga system, the Mu found a JumpShip charging its drive, and after a shot across its bows the boarding party put aboard managed to take the ship with no resistance, capturing it as a prize for the Commonwealth and sending it back independantly. The second jump, into Muskegon, was far more dramatic. It rapidly became obvious why Capellan intelligence had reported unusual movements among system-defence fighters(and why the Fangzhou had found none of them) when the Mu found a newly-built station at the nadir jump point, and fighters began to scramble out of the station in huge numbers. The Davions had been ready - news had reached them of the raiders, and the commander was holding most of his forces ready with anti-shipping missiles loaded for quick launch. Within less than ten minutes, over a hundred fighters formed up and were streaking towards the Mu. The Mu's captain had seen this strike forming on his sensors, but was unable to get close enough to interfere, so he instead switched his lasers to anti-air targeting mode and readied his dual-purpose light autocannons to shoot down the inevitable hurricane of fire.

The Davion fighter pilots were among the best that the AFFS had to offer - two of the squadrons had come from the first class at the newly-founded Albion Naval Academy's Fighter College, and while they found themselves in a difficult fight, they threw themselves into it with enthusiasm and skill. Facing no fighters on the opposing side, they could fly complex patterns to confuse the Mu's fire control computers, and flew them with skill and precision. Launching their missiles in a single coordinated wave, they then burst forward to attack the ship while its point-defence was occupied, and tried to destroy as many of the point-defence cannons as they could, in hopes of being able to pick the ship apart at leisure. The Mu's defences were overwhelmed by the wave of missiles, and dozens of heavy armor-piercing missiles landed and did terrible damage, leaving the ship adrift. Many of the autocannon mounts on the Mu were destroyed by the fighters, and the fighters celebrated their seeming crippling of the enemy ship. However, they hadn't won yet - while the Mu was drifting and lacked many of its light weapons, the fighter's cannons were not heavy enough to destroy the capital weapon mounts, and the Mu's lasers cut down fighter after fighter mercilessly. The fighters were planning to fall back and re-arm with missiles, but as it happened they had crippled the Mu's engines in the middle of a turn, and its momentum was taking it directly towards their home station. The fighters broke off, their magazines empty, but before the station could re-arm them for another strike, the Mu's capital guns came within range. The cannons spoke, and the station was defenceless against them. Most of the fighters launched with empty magazines, simply to avoid the destruction of their base, and the remainder surrendered to ensure that they would not be left adrift in short-legged defensive fighters.

It took the Mu over a week to fix their engines well enough to ensure that they could at least maneuver somewhat, and the ship staggered back home for repairs instead of continuing its voyage. But the damage had been done.

Gains and Losses:
Capellan Confederation = Moderate damage to 1x Qinru Zhe - $500m repair cost. Gained 1x JumpShip
Federated Suns = 1x Federation, 108x Fighter, $1.9B civilian damage not relevant to naval budget

Andurian and Irian
In 2367, the Free Worlds League saw an opportunity in the Capellan region. The newly formed "Confederation" had done poorly defending against the Federated Suns, and the League believed that several border worlds were ripe for the taking.

The order of battle available to Admiral Thomas Masters was a powerful one. Seven Heracles-class battlecruisers supported by two Phalanx corvettes was known to be far superior to anything that the Confederation had left after their disaster in Tikonov - intel estimated that they had not more than three of their heavy cruisers, probably two raiders, and that the balance of their fleet was converted merchants and cruise ships. The primary problem Masters faced was speed. His ships could not force an engagement directly, since his corvettes could not stand against the enemy fleet and his battlecruisers could not catch them. If he used single ships as detachments, he risked defeat in detail, and the Capellans had a known policy of trading coverage of their border for the ability to mass the largest possible fleet at the key point.

The League had three key points that must be defended in this war - their invasion force, their JumpShip flotilla supporting the invasion force, and the natural choice for a Capellan counterattack, the shipyards of Irian. Masters had enough force to support two with a good chance of victory at each against the entire Capellan fleet. So he did what any good commander would do in this situation - he buffed. With the JumpShips he left one Phalanx and three DropShips that had been modified to have the outward appearance of Heracles-class ships, complete with jump sails that had been liberated from an extremely irate merchant flotilla. With the invading force, three Heracles and his second Phalanx. And in Irian, the Heracles that had recently been laid down was shoved into the small yard to continue work on core systems, one Heracles was given the appearance of being incomplete in the primary yard itself, and three more Heracles were arrayed around the planet in such a way that an attacker would never see more than one of them from any jump point.

As predicted, the Capellans chose to abandon their forces under the gun in the Andurien region. The ground troops were reinforced when war seemed imminent, but no further reinforcements would come. The fleet concentrated for an attack, and given the overwhelming firepower they could see alongside the invasion fleet, the order came down to avoid a direct confrontation and raid the Mariks to death instead. Instead of a light raid like they had against the Federated Suns, the plan was a true deep strike operation against Irian, for only a truly important target like Irian could put enough pressure on the Mariks to come to a peace treaty.

In the end, it was a lowly sensor lieutenant on the Fangzhou that saved the Capellan fleet. On a quiet night shift as the fleet burned towards the planet, her scanners caught a whiff of communication between the base and another unit. After hours of analysis of the signal, she managed to put together a theory of what the Mariks had done based on occasional snippets of communication and the shocking similarity to an exercise that had been run in her training courses. The theory went up the ladder, and while the fleet admiral wasn't convinced, he agreed to keep a watch out for potential hidden units. As a result, the fleet laid in a contingency plan - instead of a traditional engagement where they would stop and pulverize the enemy shipyard, they chose a passing engagement that would give them enough speed to break through any opposition that did try to form up, while strafing the yard as they passed. At full emergency power, they would need only 20 minutes of warning to build up enough speed that the Mariks could never catch them. They got 23 minutes.

The Marik battlecruisers came out from behind the shadow of the planet, and the Capellans reacted almost instantly. Turning their ships around, the fleet began a burn at three gravities past the planet, and readied their guns. Instead of a slugfest, it would be a single quick burst of firepower from both sides. The battlecruisers gave chase, even after realizing that they would never be able to keep up, in hopes of being able to capture any crippled ships. Any fighters that could keep up with the crushing acceleration of the fleet units were launched to thicken up the fleet's firepower, and the two sides raced towards their meeting point. Six hundred missiles were fired in an instant between the two fleets, and almost four dozen gigantic cannons traded shells. A few more were fired from the opposite broadside as the Capellan fleet sailed through at a relative speed of over thirty kilometres a second, and lasers spiked the battered hulls of the battlecruisers as well. The Marik fleet's gunnery proved to be far less skilled than the battle-hardened Liaos, but the sheer weight of metal that they brought to bear was still enough to ensure that every single ship in the Capellan fleet suffered at least one armour breach. The Fangzhou, whose sharp eyes had saved the fleet, was aflame, and detonated less than two minutes later, taking 80% of her crew to eternity with her. But the Mariks had suffered too - the Heracles had gaping wounds and had lost most of her broadside armaments, and her sister ship Bellerophon's engines were shattered ruins. Three of the fleet's DropShips had been totally destroyed, and one unlucky fighter had been caught "like a bug on a windshield" by the doomed Fangzhou.

While the Capellan fleet struggled to control their damage, the shipyards that had been their original target were coming up rapidly. Each ship turned its least-damaged side towards the yards and fired what it could at them - the damage was far less significant than it could have been, but it was still massive. The germanium purification plant was shattered by missiles, the autocannon construction tooling was destroyed by the same model of autocannon that it had been producing, and the support infrastructure for the main yard would take months to repair. But the yard survived, and the ships under construction did as well.

The rest of the invasion went virtually unopposed in space, though the ground troops on both sides fought a bitter war on several planets. But with no navy to cover their forces, the Capellans lost world after world. When the peace treaty was signed, the Marik eagle was raised over seven worlds, and the Capellans swore to reclaim the important world of Andurien at the first opportunity.

Losses:
Capellan Confederation = 1x Qinru Zhe. Significant damage to fleet totalling $3B.
Free Worlds League = 3x DropShip, 1x fighter. Moderate damage to fleet totalling $2B, moderate damage to shipyard totalling $3B.

Research
Research:
DC: $3,792m
FS: $1,209m
CC: $353m

TH: $7,727m
UHC: $205m
TC: $186m
RWR: $310m

TOTAL = $13,782m

The winner is the Capellan Confederation, gaining vehicular drop chutes. Not related to naval construction, but you'll get a nice surprise round on any ground combats you happen to fight in the next round. And, given how many fights you seem to be getting into, that seems rather inevitable.

Budgets
I promised you guys economic growth, so growth you shall have. I did a bit of math on this - in order for the combined income of the great houses to match the TH by 2780, they need to grow about 1% per turn faster than the Hegemony does. If they grow at 2%, they'll be substantially stronger as a combined force, even if they're all individually weaker. For the RWR to catch up to a typical great house(which is perhaps a bit ambitious, but it was in that ballpark by the time of the Amaris coup), it'd need to grow about 4% faster than they do, or 5-6% per turn faster than the Terran Hegemony. Obviously, these growth rates will be jerked around by combat results as well - the Age of War will do bad things to long-run growth, while the relative peace Star League will do good things(though these trends may be masked by short-term budget prioritization - after all, in wartime the navy gets a bigger percentage of the pot than they do in peacetime, even if that pot is smaller).

Some of this will come from colonization and natural population growth(since the Battletech universe seems not to have ever stopped growing its population, unlike the real world's projections), some from background economy-boosting technologies, and some from economic development projects like recharge stations. I don't want to go into too much detail, because I know you'll all game the hell out of any rule set I explain to you, but suffice it to say that I am paying attention to that stuff.

CC: $82B, due to significant territorial losses. Note that there was also $2.869B unspent on the first turn when the CC was still NPC. Round that up to +$3B of surplus, because I forgot to draw it to your attention sooner.
DC: $110B, due to economic development and conquest.
FS: $105B due to minor conquest and economic growth.
FWL: $108B, due to conquest.
LC: $85B, due to economic development.
MH: $12B, due to conquest and loot.

TH: $760B, due to population and technological growth.
UHC: $21B, due to economic development.
RWR: $23B, due to colonial expansion and aggressive economic development.
TC: $12B, due to emergency wartime spending after discovery.
« Last Edit: 12 July 2018, 14:03:36 by Alsadius »

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #350 on: 27 June 2018, 07:27:20 »
Marian Attacks -

My brain went immidiately to ‘Martian Attacks’ and from there to ‘Mars Attacks’

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #351 on: 27 June 2018, 07:37:46 »
Marian Attacks -

My brain went immidiately to ‘Martian Attacks’ and from there to ‘Mars Attacks’

Whoops, that was supposed to be edited out until I had time to expand on it.

Ah well - I still got two out of three last-minute edits done, and that ain't bad!

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #352 on: 27 June 2018, 07:41:22 »
It was worth a laugh, and thus worthwhile.  And no worries!  Very glad to see it going up... I know at least myself and a few others have been wearing out the board hitting ‘check updates for your posts’.  :)

Starfox1701

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #353 on: 27 June 2018, 10:37:46 »
I been meaning to ask this. Since the Hegemony develops 99% of the major new stuff in cannon is everyone else going to have to wait till they use said stuff before they can build there own? Case in point NPPCs should be showing up soon. But if Terra doesn't actually attack anyone and use said NPPCs how does anybody know to research and build them?

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #354 on: 27 June 2018, 10:41:17 »
I been meaning to ask this. Since the Hegemony develops 99% of the major new stuff in cannon is everyone else going to have to wait till they use said stuff before they can build there own? Case in point NPPCs should be showing up soon. But if Terra doesn't actually attack anyone and use said NPPCs how does anybody know to research and build them?

I'm handwaving that - every tech is available to the whole universe one turn after it's developed. Being the first to research gives you a one-turn monopoly on it, but corporate espionage, parallel development, etc. will spread it around within a decade or so.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #355 on: 27 June 2018, 10:46:39 »
I been meaning to ask this. Since the Hegemony develops 99% of the major new stuff in cannon is everyone else going to have to wait till they use said stuff before they can build there own? Case in point NPPCs should be showing up soon. But if Terra doesn't actually attack anyone and use said NPPCs how does anybody know to research and build them?

Given  relative budget sizes, math suggests that the majority of new developments will be Hegemony, anyway.

Alsadius

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #356 on: 27 June 2018, 10:56:21 »
Given  relative budget sizes, math suggests that the majority of new developments will be Hegemony, anyway.

Note the edit above - the CC won this round. I made a bit of a point to reduce NPC research spending a bit, so you guys feel like it's less of a waste(and because tbh, it's probably not as valuable as my spending first turn implied). The TH still spent about half the total research budget, but that means they play catch-up half the time too.

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #357 on: 27 June 2018, 11:11:04 »
Note the edit above - the CC won this round. I made a bit of a point to reduce NPC research spending a bit, so you guys feel like it's less of a waste(and because tbh, it's probably not as valuable as my spending first turn implied). The TH still spent about half the total research budget, but that means they play catch-up half the time too.

I saw that.

Some people will still choose to pursue research.  The sense and understanding of the Lyran Navy is that they would rather buy another cruiser every few decades than have a 1 in 10 chance for a fleeting advantage in a tech whose nature cannot be known in advance.  Small powers (and we are all small powers)  will generally 'go big or go home' on pursuing 'wonderweapons', and the Lyran Navy chose 'home'.  Reasonable minds can differ.

Besides, historically, we get our biggest tech upgrade by stealing it from the Hegemony, anyway. :)

truetanker

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #358 on: 27 June 2018, 12:39:52 »

Combat Results
- Marian attacks on Periphery states

I attack Mars!?! Whoot! Take that rocks...

> Braces for counter attacks... <

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

marcussmythe

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Re: Group Design Challenge: WarShip Arms Race
« Reply #359 on: 27 June 2018, 12:54:46 »
I attack Mars!?! Whoot! Take that rocks...

> Braces for counter attacks... <

TT

I wouldn't worry too much about counterattack.  The Giant Tripod Walkers wont be around until turn 75 or 80.  :)