Author Topic: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos  (Read 20963 times)

Kit deSummersville

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #30 on: 12 November 2016, 09:01:22 »
Tracks and wheels are also 10% tonnage, so it adds up to 20/25%.

Clearly 5% too much.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #31 on: 12 November 2016, 18:23:07 »
One thing I'd like to note about the Boreas A and B.

The HAG 20 isn't an optimal choice, but it does have some advantages over the SLRM 20 in some situations.  First of all, there's the HAG's flak ability.  Second, there are a lot of defensive options vs missile weaponry available now, but there's nothing that reduces damage from Gauss weapons that doesn't also work on LRMs.  Assuming that you're going to see AMS, Reactive Armor, and Angel ECM regularly on a modern battlefield is a pretty safe bet.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #32 on: 12 November 2016, 18:33:41 »
Reactive armor seems to be kinda rare :/

wantec

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #33 on: 12 November 2016, 18:38:03 »
Quick question about transforming between modes. When you transform does it cost anything or does it kill all movement that turn to transform into a Mech or back into a vehicle and roll out?
It costs 2MP plus 1MP per leg/foot/hip actuator crit, plus 1MP per crit to the tracks/wheels or conversion equipment.

So it's pretty easy to build up the conversion cost to the point it can't convert. The TRO entry for the Boreas says the Falcons captured one, but it wasn't able to convert.

One thing I'd like to note about the Boreas A and B.

The HAG 20 isn't an optimal choice, but it does have some advantages over the SLRM 20 in some situations.  First of all, there's the HAG's flak ability.  Second, there are a lot of defensive options vs missile weaponry available now, but there's nothing that reduces damage from Gauss weapons that doesn't also work on LRMs.  Assuming that you're going to see AMS, Reactive Armor, and Angel ECM regularly on a modern battlefield is a pretty safe bet.
Good points on the HAG. Although even against AMS its likely the SLRMs will do as much or more damage.

Reactive armor seems to be kinda rare :/
Not on Warwolfs, which the Horses could end up facing.
« Last Edit: 12 November 2016, 18:40:31 by wantec »
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #34 on: 12 November 2016, 18:56:05 »
There's also the Mongrel and Zeus X.  I'm not going to say that the HAG 20 is really superior in any situation, just that with the way that the metagame has shifted in the Dark Age there are times that it might be preferable.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #35 on: 13 November 2016, 11:41:36 »
Clan LRMs in general are just extremely space-efficient, and streaks have the ammo saving going for them.
Still, yes, a HAG can easily pull it's weight in specific situations. Sadly, the BV doesn't really add up for the heavier versions.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #36 on: 14 November 2016, 09:35:35 »
Quote
Using an Endo Steel structure and an XL engine, the Notos bumps the speed up to 5/8 in ‘Mech mode. Why did I specify “’Mech mode”? Well that’s because it is the first QuadVee to feature wheeled vehicle mode instead of tracked. For 50% extra tonnage, a wheeled QuadVee increases the cruise MP by 1 and recalculates the flank speed. So the 5/8 Notos ‘Mech speed translates to 6/9 wheeled speed. Also, I’ve learned that in vehicle mode, a QuadVee gets the +1 MP for moving on pavement, meaning in urban settings a Notos can get up to 10MP in vehicle mode.

Does this apply to wheeled vehicles as well or is it a Wheeled QuadVee only benefit?
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wantec

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #37 on: 14 November 2016, 10:21:40 »
Does this apply to wheeled vehicles as well or is it a Wheeled QuadVee only benefit?
What benefit? The +1 MP for starting, staying, and ending a turn on pavement applies to all vehicles, TW, pg. 61, right column, last paragraph.

If you're talking about the +1 MP to cruise speed for wheeled mode, that's part of the QuadVee rules. Wheeled vehicles do get a bit of a speed bonus over tracked vehicles with the same (or similar) engine size. It's part of the combat vehicle construction rules, in the table taking up most of pg 100 of TechManual.


Clan LRMs in general are just extremely space-efficient, and streaks have the ammo saving going for them.
Still, yes, a HAG can easily pull it's weight in specific situations. Sadly, the BV doesn't really add up for the heavier versions.
Don't get me wrong, I love the two bigger HAGs, partly for that "big honkin' gun" effect. I realize there's inefficiencies in their design and I'm fine with that for the flavor of the game. I just wish units weren't designed where the faults of the HAGs compared to LRMs were so obvious.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #38 on: 14 November 2016, 12:47:31 »
What benefit? The +1 MP for starting, staying, and ending a turn on pavement applies to all vehicles, TW, pg. 61, right column, last paragraph.

Yeah, that I was familiar with.

If you're talking about the +1 MP to cruise speed for wheeled mode, that's part of the QuadVee rules.

That was what I was questioning. I'm not familiar enough with the QuadVee rules yet. Thanks!
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #39 on: 14 November 2016, 13:25:13 »
From memory Hovers don't need much engine to get some crazy speeds. Mechs require big engines. The toughness of a Mech with hover mobility could lead back into the craziness of pre TW hover tanks. It got nerfed for a reason.

Even without the toughness I see how you could use your hover system to crack 8/12 to burn into range. Crit your motive system out then fight as a 5/8 Mech.

Of course it is a quadvee not a full vehicle. It might not get the same level engine to speed ratio of a full vehicle.

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #40 on: 15 November 2016, 02:42:48 »
Clan LRMs in general are just extremely space-efficient, and streaks have the ammo saving going for them.
Still, yes, a HAG can easily pull it's weight in specific situations. Sadly, the BV doesn't really add up for the heavier versions.

Of course HAGs are the MRMs or LGRs of Clan Hell's Horses. They have to have one.

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #41 on: 15 November 2016, 09:40:53 »
Can a QuadVee benefit from an Armored Motive System?
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #42 on: 15 November 2016, 11:16:24 »
Not really. QuadVees never take motive crits the way vehicles do, so Armored Motive wouldn't give any benefit. You want a similar effect, armor the crit slots in the legs.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #43 on: 16 November 2016, 04:01:22 »
I realize there's inefficiencies in their design and I'm fine with that for the flavor of the game. I just wish units weren't designed where the faults of the HAGs compared to LRMs were so obvious.
Ah, well, I didn't even mean that. I mean how the bigger HAG's ammo costs more BV for the same total damage per ton, so that 2 20's are cheaper than a 40 for no apparent reason.
I can see HAGs be useful both for flavour and for actual usage; It's unfortunate this specific time because there's no heat concerns and no backup weapons, but on a unit 10 tons heavier it might not be as much of an issue.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #44 on: 26 November 2016, 19:11:26 »
What actually happens if a QuadVee gets a critical hit in the tracks or wheels? It seems to affect conversion process but anything else?
I'm looking at IO but i can't find anything describing the effects.

I mean, logically this would reduce the vehicle mode MP but if it does, how big is the effect?

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #45 on: 26 November 2016, 19:45:40 »
It increases the MP cost to convert by 1 for every motive system/conversion equipment crit.  Otherwise, I don't think so.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #46 on: 26 November 2016, 19:52:32 »
So, you're saying it is possible to shoot all tracks or wheels from a QuadVeeb it will keep on rolling as if nothing happened?

I'm starting to think i'll post a question to the questions forum...

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #47 on: 26 November 2016, 20:37:20 »
Basically.  Please keep in mind that "I don't think this makes sense" is a distinct concept from "the rules are missing something".
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #48 on: 26 November 2016, 20:43:13 »
Partial Wing hits reduce the bonus jump it grants and jump jet hits reduce jump radius, so there's partial precedent.

I'll post a question about it anyway just for clarifications sake. Never know when writers remember they forgot something...

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #49 on: 26 November 2016, 21:09:16 »
Actually, i found my answer... From wantec's question here: http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=55261.0

Quote
4) Per the "Leg Destruction" rules on pg 122, TW under "Four-Legged 'Mechs" a quad that loses 1 leg gets a -1 walking MP replacing any actuator/hip penalties from that leg. When a QuadVee loses one leg, does that affect the vehicle mode MPs? How?
Quote
You're now missing a wheel/track. This is considered Heavy Motive Damage (TW p.193) so the vehicle loses half its Cruise MP rounded down. This will require Errata.
Thought there was something odd...

I expect this is of interest to QuadVee players.

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #50 on: 27 November 2016, 01:55:59 »
Can a QuadVee benefit from an Armored Motive System?
Not really. QuadVees never take motive crits the way vehicles do, so Armored Motive wouldn't give any benefit. You want a similar effect, armor the crit slots in the legs.
How about the fact that, as they aren't vehicles at all, they can't install the system?

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #51 on: 28 November 2016, 10:45:25 »
Not really. QuadVees never take motive crits the way vehicles do, so Armored Motive wouldn't give any benefit. You want a similar effect, armor the crit slots in the legs.

How about the fact that, as they aren't vehicles at all, they can't install the system?
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #52 on: 10 December 2016, 02:57:00 »
For all their pros and cons (which relaly just add flavour/character to the untis) these are what Quadvees are supposed to be. At least to me. Almost wouldn't mind seeing a hover version off these, but more wheeled would be just as interesting.

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #53 on: 07 January 2017, 11:26:56 »
Great write up, can't wait to be able to get some of these.

How about we forgo common sense entirely and embrace Horse madness and just pod mount the motion e systems. Swap em out depending on terrain and for repairs, proper Omni style.  :)

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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #54 on: 19 February 2017, 09:24:26 »
Sorry for the minor Necro but I really really hope that they keep the cockpits divided in the future designs and art.  It just makes a LOT more sense.

With two crew you can have each one concentrate more fully on their job, and that really requires a split cockpit.  If you're the the pilot and you're say, hurtling along at 96kph trying to avoid running into a building or a row of abandoned hover-trucks the last thing you want is to suddenly have your entire point of view slew left or right as the gunner brings the turret/torso to bare on a target

With the pilot in the front of the Quadvee and the gunner in the torso/turret it just makes a LOT more sense than the double bubble in the torso.  The ONLY way I think it would work would be in a big assault. We've naturally no idea of the Horses are working on something bigger than the 75 tonner but lets assume they are (and do we have any way of making quadvee's with any mech making programmes at the moment? or is it trying to work it out on a quad chassis?)

Lets assume they make a 100 tonner but instead of putting the crew in the turret they put them in the forward hull with a kind of Hind/AH-64 esque layout with the turret above and behind.  The driver benefits from having a fixed position and if the gunner wants to slew around then give him or her a console/chair like they had on the Gunstar in The Last Starfighter.  The chair and all the controls for the gunner can slew and turn independently with a wide range of holo-displays etc to provide visuals whilst there's also of course fully integrated sensors.   This would probably work if you've got a big 100 ton chassis to work with.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #55 on: 20 February 2017, 06:49:24 »
The Gunner on any design can probably just use a screen to aim. Not that I am disagreeing with you.
Regarding heavier Quadvees, I think there is a border at around 80 tons regarding efficiency, if the vehicle rules still hold sway with Quad Vees.
Namely, the wheeled tonnage border. Wheels just make way more sense to move in urban terrain and over highways, given you don't have the disadvantages when standing up.
I mean, what would the point be in a 100 ton tracked Quadvee?
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #56 on: 20 February 2017, 08:52:30 »
I mean, what would the point be in a 100 ton tracked Quadvee?
Act like Assault Tank, hit like a Assault Mech.   ^-^
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #57 on: 20 February 2017, 09:22:50 »
Well i'd say they clearly like them, producing 5 different classes of them including a prototype thats gone into production as a regular unit whilst they are developing the next gen ones with the Notos.  And whilst there's probably efficiency issues (see Improved Jumpjets on anything over 80 tons) which might make a 100 tonner basically a bit crap (but then again so what, an over-optimized cheese fest is DULL).

You could probably slap a HAG-20 and two ER Large lasers on it and some supporting weapons and be done with it with an 80 tonner, but i'm not sure if there's any mech making programmes that can make Quadvee's at the mo to test it out.
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #58 on: 20 February 2017, 09:30:37 »
Edit: ninja'd. Yeh, Fluff over efficiency.
Act like Assault Tank, hit like a Assault Mech.   ^-^
Why not just build a regular Assault Mech, that acts like an Assault Mech and hits like an Assault Mech?  ???
I'm afraid the benefits of vehicle-ness elude me here. Then again, if tptb decide to create one, I probably wouldn't complain.

I'll probably withhold speculation, though. As seen with the Notos, the flexibility of quadvees really comes to the front when they notably gain, like with wheels and the correspondingly high roadspeed.
Heavier designs spend that much more total tonnage on conversion and the secondary drive train, I doubt it'd make much sense to try. Which probably means someone will.  ;D
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Re: ‘Mech(ish) of the Week Two-part Omni Special: Boreas and Notos
« Reply #59 on: 20 February 2017, 10:00:25 »
Quote
Why not just build a regular Assault Mech, that acts like an Assault Mech and hits like an Assault Mech?

Common sense! Pshaw! Flim-Flam! *waves hand dismissively*  :D

Where's the fun in common sense and rationality :p Hell if they can put IJJ's on a 85+ tonner and think that sacrificing 20 tons to leap 5 hexes is smart, then they can sure as hell slap make an assualt quadvee :p
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