Author Topic: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless  (Read 178883 times)

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #630 on: 19 August 2016, 13:30:52 »
Cost and Challenges of the SLS.  Looks like challenging road ahead. :/

Nutty.  It's way too late in development to be giving managers new cost goals.  These things have to be cooked in up front.  Not a couple years from first launch.

Even nuttier are the insanely low flight rates.  In a prior life, Shuttle managers used to tell me that they couldn't go below 4 launch per year or the workforce became unpracticed and unsafe.  Now SLS will do 1 launch per year?

And it will cost $2 billion per?

Ugh...

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
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Wrangler

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #631 on: 19 August 2016, 14:33:54 »
I think at this point it will take dedicated institution to want go into space truly get a vehicle and momentum driving into space and explore.  US isn't as dedicated to space as they used to when the Moon landings effort was put as top priority.  I think the us was lucky they were able to get the Shuttles going and sustained for as long as they did.

I always pictured they would try to build in orbit a ship, which would be dedicated as a deep-space exploration ship. It perhaps could had a nuclear engine equipped.  It would allow it to reusing enough for economic reasons and the ISS would allow it to be refitted when needed.   Private industry won't really happen unless there inescapable source of money to be made vs staying on the ground.  That's my opinion. 
« Last Edit: 19 August 2016, 20:09:50 by Wrangler »
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #632 on: 19 August 2016, 14:38:03 »
I agree.  But there is more to be made in space.  The money here on the ground is easier to make, and faster. 

Lots of people are waiting for others to do it first, take the step to dedicated deep space missions.  At this point in time, anyway.

I hope that changes, because the potential of space is truly limitless.

And let's all please be careful please about politics. Please.  :) 
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #633 on: 21 August 2016, 19:57:50 »
Wow, the irony...

Not going to say much beyond good for them, and maybe over here in North America we'll get a bit more serious in our dedication to opening up space.

http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/roscosmos/russia-china-envision-joint-space-exploration/
« Last Edit: 22 August 2016, 14:27:16 by rebs »
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #634 on: 22 August 2016, 21:27:33 »
Wow, the irony...

Not going to say much beyond good for them, and maybe over here in North America we'll get a bit more serious in our dedication to opening up space.

http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/roscosmos/russia-china-envision-joint-space-exploration/

There are two parts to this article.

There's the part that covers "'possible interaction in such profound and technologically complex projects as the future exploration of the Moon, Mars and piloted cosmonautics'".  I'd take this with a very large grain of salt, for two reasons:

1) The tough Russian economy, which is forcing major cutbacks in the Russian space program.  Russia is struggling to maintain its resupply commitments to the International Space Station, and as a result, may have to reduce its cosmonaut compliment from 3 to 2.  Russian robotic missions keep slipping over the horizon, too. 

http://www.spaceflightinsider.com/organizations/roscosmos/russia-china-envision-joint-space-exploration/
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/spacecraft_planetary_2014.html

If Russia is struggling to scare up the resources to keep a space station resupplied or send out a robotic precursor, then it doesn't have the resources to participate in a manned deep space program to the Moon, Mars, or elsewhere.

2) These sorts of discussions and studies go on all the time, and nothing larger follows from the vast majority of them.  There's a huge gulf between tasking some low-level technocrats to talk to each other and having the leadership of two nations reach consensus on and fund an international agreement with multi-ten or -hundred billion dollar implications.

The other part of this article deals with "'intergovernmental agreements that will outline the issue of maintaining Russia’s intellectual property on most high-technology production which will be sold in China. These are... rocket engines.'"

China has purchased Russian space technology before, and given the two nations' relative wealth, it makes sense that there will be more purchases in the future.  US companies have purchased Russian rocket engines and technology, too, and they remain some of the best in the world.

I would expect this concrete exchange of Russian rocket technology to China to take place.  But I wouldn't get caught up in the rest of the article or expect much else to happen.

Edit: This op-ed puts Sino-Russian agreements (on space or anything else) in some perspective.  It especially notes China's economic issues towards the end, something I did not mention:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2016/08/23/does-the-united-states-face-a-new-tripartite-pact/?utm_term=.0c015b201695

My 2 cents... YMMV.
« Last Edit: 23 August 2016, 16:29:35 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Wrangler

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #635 on: 23 August 2016, 06:33:49 »
The latest issue of Popular Science says that China launching it's second space lab sometime near end of the year which is suppose to be a proving ground for It's permenant space station.   China pumping 19 billion dollars into their space program, where US is getting by with 3 billion.  Its not numbers game, but resources.  China seems to be least have sense of direction what they want to do and prove the world.  Where NASA hasn't a clue sometimes or doesn't have resource to rally the troops of scientist and engineers to focus on one thing when it comes to vision of what needs happen.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #636 on: 23 August 2016, 11:46:27 »
China pumping 19 billion dollars into their space program, where US is getting by with 3 billion. 

I don't know where those figures came from, but they're very wrong.

US federal spending on space outstrips the rest of the world combined:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/10/25/the-u-s-still-spends-more-on-space-than-every-other-country-combined/

US spending is north of $40 billion, while China is around $11 billion.  This is all federal spending, both civil (NASA, NOAA, etc.) and military (DOD, NRO, etc.)

In the narrower vein of space exploration spending, NASA's total budget is about $19 billion per year (minus about a billion for aeronautics), while the equivalent spending in China is in the neighborhood of $2 billion per year.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-big-is-chinas-space-program-2015-6

Roughly speaking, the US spends about 9x more than China on space exploration.

Quote
China seems to be least have sense of direction what they want to do and prove the world.

Decision making on pretty much everything (not just space exploration) is easier in a country with only one political party and a hierarchical government, versus the multi-party system and divided branches of government in the US.  No doubt, it is easier for China to set a direction and stick to it.

That said, the US program suffers more from gross inefficiencies and poor programmatic decisions than poor direction.  When NASA's budget is more than every other civil space agency in the world combined, we should be making better progress than we are, regardless of whether the direction gets changed from time to time by the nation's leadership.

Even with a budget like NASA's, we can't spend tens of billions of dollars building a heavy lift launcher and capsule that largely duplicate privately funded work already in progress and that will cost a couple billion dollars per launch and expect to have much left over for actual exploration hardware (transit stages, habitats, landers, etc.).  And we can't expect to mount human Mars missions requiring ten or so heavy lift launches when our heavy lift launcher only launches once every year or so.

NASA's budget is so big that we don't have to be particularly smart with it to make good progress.  But we can't afford to spend so stupidly with it and still expect progress.

My 2 cents... YMMV.

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #637 on: 24 August 2016, 13:00:45 »

Scientists say they’ve found a planet orbiting Proxima Centauri, our closest neighbor

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/08/24/scientists-may-have-found-a-planet-orbiting-proxima-centauri-our-closest-star/?hpid=hp_rhp-top-table-main_planet-115pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

Quote
Proxima b will no doubt be dubbed "Earthlike" by many, but let's not jump the gun. Here's what we know: The planet, based on statistical analysis of the behavior of its star, is quite likely to exist. Beyond that, we know very little.

Proxima b orbits its parent star every 11 days. Because of the method used to detect it, we don't actually know how massive the planet candidate is — but we can say with confidence that it's at least 1.3 times as massive as the Earth. It's just over 4 million miles away from its cool, tiny red dwarf of a star (much closer than we are to our own sun), so it is blasted with enough radiation to maintain a balmy surface temperature of around minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit.

Based on what we know about the planets that form around red dwarf stars, it's probably rocky — like Earth, Venus and Mars — and is likely tidally locked, meaning that one face of the planet constantly stares at the sun while the other half is left in darkness.

To call a planet "Earthlike," scientists have to show that a planet is likely to be rocky and capable of holding liquid water. If Proxima b has an atmosphere — a question unlikely to be answered anytime soon — then it could have a temperature quite close to Earth's, meaning it would at least be capable of maintaining liquid water on its surface...

Then there's Proxima itself: Known as a flare star, the red devil lashes huge flares of radiation out into space every few hours. Anything that evolved on a nearby planet would have to live deep underground or underwater to survive — unless it evolved some level of protection from radiation that scientists on Earth can scarcely imagine.

Related article...

Stephen Hawking wants to use lasers to propel a tiny spaceship to Alpha Centauri

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/04/12/stephen-hawking-wants-to-use-lasers-to-propel-a-tiny-spaceship-to-alpha-centauri/?tid=a_inl

FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #638 on: 24 August 2016, 15:45:15 »
Did they intentionally set it up for the announcement to fall on the tenth anniversary of the death of planet Pluto?
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #639 on: 24 August 2016, 16:31:05 »
Maybe we should take XKCD's suggestion and name it or another Exoplanwt Pluto, thus really making the "is Pluto a Planet?" debate confusing
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #640 on: 26 August 2016, 00:18:40 »

A new class of galaxy has been discovered, one made almost entirely of dark matter

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/08/25/a-new-class-of-galaxy-has-been-discovered-one-made-almost-entirely-of-dark-matter/

Quote
But now scientists have found something entirely new: a galaxy with the same mass as the Milky Way but with only 1 percent of our galaxy's star power. About 99.99 percent of this other galaxy is made up of dark matter, and scientists believe it may be one of many.

The galaxy Dragonfly 44, described in a study published Thursday in the Astrophysical Journal Letters, is 300 million light years away...

It's as if someone picked through the Milky Way, selecting just one star out of 100 and throwing the rest away.

How little we understand...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #641 on: 26 August 2016, 18:43:59 »
My only question there, are we sure it's not a monster pile of black holes providing the gravity effect?  I mean, it's got the mass of something 100 times what we can see; I'm assuming they've ruled out blocking dust and whatnot with spectral analysis and comparisons to things nearer and farther, so...just throwing that one out there.  Great article and goes well into explanations of what and why, rather than just clickbaiting terms the writer doesn't know.

That said, I'm actually glad to see such an extreme compared to the Milky Way - remember the recent comments that our galaxy (and others, IIRC) spin too fast and shouldn't be able to maintain their barred-spiral structure without a sizeable amount of dark matter.  Seeing something that adds a hell of a lot more of the stuff is interesting...
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #642 on: 01 September 2016, 15:57:25 »
My only question there, are we sure it's not a monster pile of black holes providing the gravity effect?

The problem with a monster pile of black holes is that it takes a monster length of time to produce.  Only a small fraction of stars (the largest) produce black holes.  Aside from dynamical relaxation, which literally takes quintillions of years, there's no mechanism for those black holes to eat or fling away the other 90%+ of the stars that should be in the Dragonfly 44 galaxy.  And the universe obviously isn't anywhere near that old.

If stellar black holes are driving Dragonfly 44 or responsible for dark matter, then we don't understand something very fundamental about galactic dynamics or stellar population (or both).

Quote
That said, I'm actually glad to see such an extreme compared to the Milky Way - remember the recent comments that our galaxy (and others, IIRC) spin too fast and shouldn't be able to maintain their barred-spiral structure without a sizeable amount of dark matter.  Seeing something that adds a hell of a lot more of the stuff is interesting...

Those observations are actually about 80+ years old.  Oort hypothesized dark matter -- matter that interacts gravitationally but not electromagnetically -- when observations of stars and clusters orbiting the Milky Way and other galaxies did not match dynamical models as early as the 1930s, i.e., there wasn't enough visible matter in our galaxy and others to hold these orbits in place so there must be some unseen dark matter adding gravitational force.

FWIW...
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #643 on: 01 September 2016, 16:04:40 »

A Call From Outer Space, or a Cosmic Wrong Number?

Quote
Or perhaps that we simply don’t have any idea what we are looking for...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/02/science/seti-investigates-an-alien-radio-signal.html

A good summary from a good reporter of the latest "cry wolf" in the SETI community that's made its way into the regular press.

"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Kit deSummersville

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #644 on: 01 September 2016, 16:51:47 »
A new class of galaxy has been discovered, one made almost entirely of dark matter

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2016/08/25/a-new-class-of-galaxy-has-been-discovered-one-made-almost-entirely-of-dark-matter/

How little we understand...

Dyson sphere around most of the Galaxy!  :D
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #645 on: 01 September 2016, 17:04:23 »
Type IV civilization? ;)

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #646 on: 01 September 2016, 17:06:56 »
"Oops." --SpaceX.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the video, but it looks like the fire started near the second stage umbilical.
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #647 on: 01 September 2016, 17:59:14 »
Video?  What video?  I see no link... ???

cray

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #648 on: 01 September 2016, 19:07:45 »
Video?  What video?  I see no link... ???

I didn't include one since I figured everyone in this thread had seen it in the news. However, a convenient one is:
http://www.bbc.com/news/video_and_audio/headlines/37250128
« Last Edit: 01 September 2016, 19:10:03 by cray »
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #649 on: 01 September 2016, 19:48:18 »
Thanks!  No, I hadn't seen any news on that yet.  It was a long day at work...

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #650 on: 01 September 2016, 21:44:09 »
Almost looks like fuel line blew near the upper part booster where satellite was mated to the rocket states.
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Lazarus Jaguar

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #651 on: 01 September 2016, 22:48:15 »
Type IV civilization? ;)

Only one galaxy?  That's still only Type III
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #652 on: 02 September 2016, 00:36:11 »
"Oops." --SpaceX.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the video, but it looks like the fire started near the second stage umbilical.
A poster on another forum I frequent had a similar conclusion.

Falcon 9's flight record is starting to look a bit spotty

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #653 on: 02 September 2016, 08:53:55 »
Falcon 9's flight record is starting to look a bit spotty

It doesn't matter to the satellite owner, but the fire technically was not during a launch.  It was during preparation for a pre-launch test several days before the actual launch.  So this event may not count as a "launch failure" in the flight record scorebooks.

Going forward for SpaceX, a lot depends on where the fire actually originated (rocket, ground equipment, or payload) and why (equipment or process flaw, human error, etc.).

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #654 on: 05 September 2016, 09:42:02 »
Lost, then found. Hello, Philae.
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Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #655 on: 05 September 2016, 11:17:02 »

And good timing too, the orbiter mission is coming to an end later this month.
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #656 on: 05 September 2016, 12:28:02 »
Picture was taken from only 2.7 km distance using OSIRIS NAC. Highest-resolution picture of the comet so far to my knowledge.

Selected - almost daily - OSIRIS images can be found here. The full-scale OSIRIS picture with Philae can be found here (note: 5 MB PNG). The location with regard to the comet can be found here.

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #657 on: 08 September 2016, 13:21:01 »
Because I love dressing this page up with beautiful pictures.  Sure, these can be found in any of the articles we've all been reading, but it's nice to have them here, too.

This one is a shot of Jupiter's northern polar region taken by Juno during it's first orbital pass.  Thanks go to NASA and ESA. 

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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #658 on: 08 September 2016, 14:49:53 »
The Clouds in the polar region look like their a mess.  Not as consistent with rest of the plant's stripes.

I always did wonder why Gas Giant's had bands of clouds so uniformed.  Chemical make up, winds whipping so fast, that it keeps louds uniformedd.
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Re: Deep Space and Interplanetary Exploration - The Universe is Timeless
« Reply #659 on: 08 September 2016, 15:13:26 »
The Clouds in the polar region look like their a mess.  Not as consistent with rest of the plant's stripes.

I always did wonder why Gas Giant's had bands of clouds so uniformed.  Chemical make up, winds whipping so fast, that it keeps louds uniformedd.

Most of the bands are showing what we might call "Trade winds" here on earth.  They flow in alternating opposite directions at break-neck speeds.

Jupiter is an amazing place.
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