Joint fire mandrill and blood spirit campaign questions

[Sjhernan3060]

After re reading my copy of wars of reaving I was intrigued by the story of when the depleted ravens trialed for and successful won a number of warships and their crews from the scorpions.

That got me thinking of the odd couple best buds the mandrills and the spirits. Kindraa mick Kreese if I recall correctly was noted for its strong aero and warship lines as well as being “ very ambitious”

Scenario: kindraa mick kreese and the spirits team up to hit an orbital cache and or trial for warships as the ravens did.

Questions:

1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...

2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?

[Frogfoot]

Kindraa mick Kreese

They become Kindraa Mick-Kreese-Kline in 3067 so bear that in mind if you're playing in or after that year.

1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...

Individual Kindraa pretty much do whatever they like. They're effectively autonomous. They might face Trials of Grievance from the Khan or other Kindraa if what they're doing is unpopular, other Kindraa might cancel any trade pacts or joint research projects with them, and there's a chance of getting censured by the Clan Council. Plus, any Kindraa that gets a windfall of isorla and doesn't want to share it can expect a lot of unfriendly Trials of Possession coming their way from their peers. But if a Kindraa wants to do its own thing then there's precious little a Khan can do about it unless they can unite the rest of the Clan. An example of that happening would be how the Mandrills reacted when they found out about Matilla-Carrol's dealings with Clan Coyote.

In your scenario, I'd expect the Khan and other Kindraa to put a lot of pressure on the Mick-Kreese-Klines to share the wealth. In the short term it would probably be in Kindraa MKK's interest to do so since I doubt they have the facilities to support a half-dozen extra Warships. If they didn't feel like doing so then you're going to go down the classic Fire Mandrill path: bad-tempers and bloody noses. If the other Mandrills couldn't match the MKK's new naval might then they'd probably just go after their enclaves instead.

2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?

Success certainly helps, but it can make a Kindraa seem like more of a dangerous rival too, breeding jealousy and paranoia among their peers.

[Sjhernan3060]

They become Kindraa Mick-Kreese-Kline in 3067 so bear that in mind if you're playing in or after that year.
Individual Kindraa pretty much do whatever they like. They're effectively autonomous. They might face Trials of Grievance from the Khan or other Kindraa if what they're doing is unpopular, other Kindraa might cancel any trade pacts or joint research projects with them, and there's a chance of getting censured by the Clan Council. Plus, any Kindraa that gets a windfall of isorla and doesn't want to share it can expect a lot of unfriendly Trials of Possession coming their way from their peers. But if a Kindraa wants to do its own thing then there's precious little a Khan can do about it unless they can unite the rest of the Clan. An example of that happening would be how the Mandrills reacted when they found out about Matilla-Carrol's dealings with Clan Coyote.

In your scenario, I'd expect the Khan and other Kindraa to put a lot of pressure on the Mick-Kreese-Klines to share the wealth. In the short term it would probably be in Kindraa MKK's interest to do so since I doubt they have the facilities to support a half-dozen extra Warships. If they didn't feel like doing so then you're going to go down the classic Fire Mandrill path: bad-tempers and bloody noses. If the other Mandrills couldn't match the MKK's new naval might then they'd probably just go after their enclaves instead.
Success certainly helps, but it can make a Kindraa seem like more of a dangerous rival too, breeding jealousy and paranoia among their peers.

This is were the spirits would come in. Btw I should stated this idea is pre wars of reaving.

As they both hated the burrocks perhaps a joint attack on the burocks less defended enclaves and cached warships before the absorption was finished?

Or perhaps targeted strikes right after the absorption? To weaken the newly strong adders rather than the disastrous attack the spirits did?

[Frogfoot]

As they both hated the burrocks perhaps a joint attack on the burocks less defended enclaves and cached warships before the absorption was finished?

The logistics for this are going to be tough. The Spirit and Mick-Kreese naval forces might be strong enough to overwhelm a local Burrock defence but the cached Warships are going to take a long time to reactivate. That would be plenty of time for the Burrocks to show up with reinforcements and launch a new Trial of Possession to recover what they lost. It's possible that the semantics of the Trial could avoid this problem, e.g "we lay claim to the cached Warships and the right to their safe relocation from this system" but that might be unacceptable under Clan Honour since it's an attempt to avoid another fight. Maybe if the Ravens are involved too in some kind of contract bid... but there'd need to be something in it for them.

Or perhaps targeted strikes right after the absorption? To weaken the newly strong adders rather than the disastrous attack the spirits did?

Same issues as the above, though the non-Burrock Adders wouldn't have the hatred of the Spirits that they did canonically so the Trials wouldn't be so brutal.

[Sjhernan3060]

If the mandrills trialed for an won ships plus crew how could they leverage that in their own clan?

[Kallor]

The Blood Spirits wouldn't waste the resources going after warships, dont forget they traded several away to the Ravens for mechs. They only keep the ones they have out of sheer necessity.

May I suggest that your Kindra go for an easier target? The Ice Hellions are spread out all over clan space, they have several ships that are operating solo and they wouldn't likely be able to gather their navy for a strong counter attack like the Adders/Burrocks could.

[Sjhernan3060]

The Blood Spirits wouldn't waste the resources going after warships, dont forget they traded several away to the Ravens for mechs. They only keep the ones they have out of

That was true when they were desperate for mechs and in isolation. Post 3059 they did need and lacked a stronger naval arm

[Kallor]

That was true when they were desperate for mechs and in isolation. Post 3059 they did need and lacked a stronger naval arm

They absolutely needed a larger navy, but they didnt realize that till 3067 when they lost one ship to the Adder blockade, when they went to raid Tathis.

[Sjhernan3060]

They absolutely needed a larger navy, but they didnt realize that till 3067 when they lost one ship to the Adder blockade, when they went to raid Tathis.

Per FM crusaders: their fleet commander blamed the loss of the absorption war ( 3060)in part to the small navy they had

[Kallor]

Per FM crusaders: their fleet commander blamed the loss of the absorption war ( 3060)in part to the small navy they had

I stand corrected! I am just re-reading the FMs since it has been a while. Looks like you have solid justification to go warship shopping.

[Frogfoot]

If the mandrills trialed for an won ships plus crew how could they leverage that in their own clan?

Hand the Warships out to the others for prestige, political favours and resources. Or, keep them all and declare themselves to be the new core of the Clan's naval might.

The Warships don't really have any use in strong-arming the other Kindraa, even the Mandrills wouldn't be crazy enough to orbitally bombard their rivals' enclaves.

[Sjhernan3060]

In addition to trails of possession against any cached adder or jaguar warships ( circa 3060) I thought another potential target would be the scorpions. Both the spirits and mandrills hold them in contempt and they seemed to possess a larger navy than they knew what to do with..

[rebs]

In addition to trails of possession against any cached adder or jaguar warships ( circa 3060) I thought another potential target would be the scorpions. Both the spirits and mandrills hold them in contempt and they seemed to possess a larger navy than they knew what to do with..

In the Wars of Reaving, the Snow Ravens arrive at the same observation and they target the Scorpion fleet for Trials of Possession.  That backs up your observation quite well. 

[Sjhernan3060]

In the Wars of Reaving, the Snow Ravens arrive at the same observation and they target the Scorpion fleet for Trials of Possession.  That backs up your observation quite well.

That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

[rebs]

That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

Yeah the Ravens seem to have built Nightlords for almost everyone.  But not quite everyone.

[Sjhernan3060]

So if post Burrock absorption wanted to hit the cached excess warships the adders got how would our two clans get that info?

If they wanted to seize an enclave that they could hold what would be a logical target? Maybe am adder enclave whose defense are now weakened? Ideas welcome!

[Kallor]

Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.

[Sjhernan3060]

Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.

Interesting idea.... so to clarify you are suggesting that the spirits attempt to take and hold Albion for the manufacturing on planet while the ravens run naval and aero cover?

[Kallor]

Exactly. Between the warships attached to specific Galaxies and the reserve fleets available. Albion should be the second most defended system after Sheridan.

There are 4 front line and 3 seconding clusters on planet, and 7 warships in system. Nightlord, Liberator, 2x York, Lola and 2x Vincent.

If I were the Ravens I would want the Yorks and the Nightlord.

[Sjhernan3060]

Exactly. Between the warships attached to specific Galaxies and the reserve fleets available. Albion should be the second most defended system after Sheridan.

There are 4 front line and 3 seconding clusters on planet, and 7 warships in system. Nightlord, Liberator, 2x York, Lola and 2x Vincent.

If I were the Ravens I would want the Yorks and the Nightlord.

So let’s expand on this. How easy or hard was the fight on Albion between the adders and burrocks?

In this scenario I would suggest that the spirits wait until after the absorption and perhaps bring in kindraa mick kreese who also specializes in naval warfare

[Kallor]

Well it was the capital so the Burrocks would have had their Elite troops there. At that point the Adders could not have known that Burrock warriors would only put up a token defense. So they would have sent their Elites as well, plus a Naval Star per clan.

Hands down, I'd wait till the absorbtion was complete, way less troops to deal with.

[Sjhernan3060]

Well it was the capital so the Burrocks would have had their Elite troops there. At that point the Adders could not have known that Burrock warriors would only put up a token defense. So they would have sent their Elites as well, plus a Naval Star per clan.

Hands down, I'd wait till the absorbtion was complete, way less troops to deal with.

Re read the Albion write up in FMC and the fighting between the adders and burrocks was “ brutal” the hardcore and leadership of the clan fought and died against the adders.

[Sjhernan3060]

Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?

[Foxx Ital]

Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?

 3 days, don't wanna seem desperate  ;)

[Kallor]

Re read the Albion write up in FMC and the fighting between the adders and burrocks was “ brutal” the hardcore and leadership of the clan fought and died against the adders.

I'm slowly re-reading warden and crusader FMs, I haven't gotten to "S" yet. I'll do better research before I try to answer questions.

[Sjhernan3060]

I would like the mysterious Cheops shipyards which are only mentioned here as a prime target for kindraa mick kreese

And then perhaps the spirits could blockade Albion and beat up on the garrison as the adders did to them in cannon?

Even with nearly twice the touman remember the spirits did not intervene I am not sure if they have the industrial strength to maintain a siege though...

[Sjhernan3060]

Edit: what if the target is only the shipyards? And I know they were only mentioned once but if the Mick Kreese provided their excellent marines to take and hold the shipyards that would have put a real squeeze on the adder fleet which had swollen in size after the burrock absorption. That would have forced the adders to go to the ravens for yardtime which the ravens would have gouged the for.

[Sjhernan3060]

Flipping the scenario a bit the WOR sourcebook cited a number of examples were long buried caches of warships were reactivated. As aero experts why not have kindraa mick kreese provide TA for a spirit reclamation force to hit B grade caches like the strana mechty one which held the quick silver mongoose ( and I assume other ships) or the adder caches

In return for their help to get the ships mobile the spirits could jump start mick kreese protomech program.

[Sjhernan3060]

After re reading my copy of wars of reaving I was intrigued by the story of when the depleted ravens trialed for and successful won a number of warships and their crews from the scorpions.

That got me thinking of the odd couple best buds the mandrills and the spirits. Kindraa mick Kreese if I recall correctly was noted for its strong aero and warship lines as well as being “ very ambitious”

Scenario: kindraa mick kreese and the spirits team up to hit an orbital cache and or trial for warships as the ravens did.

Questions:

1) Can a kindraa leader do such a big operation without khan level approval? The control of warships was a very touchy issues amongst the mandrills as it was feared that any kindraa which had too many warships could then have too much sway...

2) say the operation is consider dodegy from a chain of command POV as long as it is successful doesn’t that wash away all wrongs?

In this scenario who from the defending side can authorize the trial? If the mandrills attempted to trial the scorpions for a naval star who accepts the challenge?

The galaxy commander which the star is attached to or the star admiral? Or does that require khan level approval?

[Stormlion1]

The Blood Spirits might do better bankrolling another Clans endeavour with ammunition, repairs, and equipment rather than taking part themselves. They were the smallest Clan at this point and another Clan might take issue with there strikes for something as valuable as a warship.

I've always thought they would have done better following in the Hells Horses footsteps and offering there services as a Garrison Force to a Inner Sphere Clan.

[Sjhernan3060]

The Blood Spirits might do better bankrolling another Clans endeavour with ammunition, repairs, and equipment rather than taking part themselves. They were the smallest Clan at this point and another Clan might take issue with there strikes for something as valuable as a warship.

I've always thought they would have done better following in the Hells Horses footsteps and offering there services as a Garrison Force to a Inner Sphere Clan.

Alas what could have been... can you imagine blood spirit snow raven team up? The spirts would have been great spear carriers for an invader esp with their specialization in defense.

[Sjhernan3060]

Also what is the the accepted wait time after a trial of absorption to attack the newly strong clan?

Was rereading FM warden clans and it mentions that the scorpions pretty much attacked the jags the moment they heard huntress was being assaulted. This netted them some nice territory etc.

Seems to me that the moment the smoke cleared on Albion after the adders crushed the burrock elite is when the spirits should have attacked.

With their much larger than known touman and mandrill allies as back up I think the case could have been made for them to take and hold the world and the ship yards.

[Sjhernan3060]

Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.

I always get murky but on how trials of possession work. If they hit the Cheops shipyards could they only trial for control of the yards and not the warships on hand?

If so how would that affect bidding?

[Stormlion1]

They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.

[Sjhernan3060]

They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.

If they struck together could the parameters me:

Blood spirits trial for ships on hand

Mandrills trial for the yards?

[Stormlion1]

Honestly this might be seen as dishonorable by the defending Clan as they would have to split there defensive bids. Two against one as it were. But that's just my guess honestly.

[RifleMech]

I always get murky but on how trials of possession work. If they hit the Cheops shipyards could they only trial for control of the yards and not the warships on hand?

If so how would that affect bidding?

It could change the amount, type, and quality of forces they use to defend their property with. The more that's bid on the greater the units bid in their defense.

They would have to include control of the warships waiting there as part of the bid. So the shipyards and the warships, Jumpships, and the dropships would all require one grand bid including them all or individual bids to take control. A defender can opt to include everything in the defense as well.

Actually, you don't have to bid on more than what you want. If you just want the yards, only bid on the yards.

Honestly this might be seen as dishonorable by the defending Clan as they would have to split there defensive bids. Two against one as it were. But that's just my guess honestly.

It might if they were seen acting together and in concert. Even then they'd still their own bidding to take their targets and they'd still have to fight for them. I think it would be dishonorable if they trialed for one but used a bid large enough to take both.

[Sjhernan3060]

It could change the amount, type, and quality of forces they use to defend their property with. The more that's bid on the greater the units bid in their defense.


Actually, you don't have to bid on more than what you want. If you just want the yards, only bid on the yards.

It might if they were seen acting together and in concert. Even then they'd still their own bidding to take their targets and they'd still have to fight for them. I think it would be dishonorable if they trialed for one but used a bid large enough to take both.

Right so I’d say the mandrills bid it down to a ship duel for the yards and the spirits did the same for the ships that would be ok?

[RifleMech]

Right so I’d say the mandrills bid it down to a ship duel for the yards and the spirits did the same for the ships that would be ok?

That would depend on what was bid in their defense. Clans want to bid less than the defenders so that taking the prize is a challenge and will gain them honor. Usually. There are exceptions such as forcing a rival to bid too low and get hurt. Defenders of course want to bid high enough to keep the prize but still have the fight be a challenge to gain honor. Usually. Sometimes they'll be really low when they want to lose or bid everything when the prize is super valuable or they just don't like the other and want to make them pay.

[Sjhernan3060]

That would depend on what was bid in their defense. Clans want to bid less than the defenders so that taking the prize is a challenge and will gain them honor. Usually. There are exceptions such as forcing a rival to bid too low and get hurt. Defenders of course want to bid high enough to keep the prize but still have the fight be a challenge to gain honor. Usually. Sometimes they'll be really low when they want to lose or bid everything when the prize is super valuable or they just don't like the other and want to make them pay.

Very true. So to not run afoul of clan custom and or law they would need to declare the trial and explain who is fighting for what correct?

[RifleMech]

Very true. So to not run afoul of clan custom and or law they would need to declare the trial and explain who is fighting for what correct?

Correct. They'd say what they'd want and ask what forces the defenders would be using. Then they'd decide what forces to send against it. If questioned about the timing of another Clan's attack their best response would be "Coincidence. If they get in our way, they will pay for their arrogance." or something.

[Sjhernan3060]

Was rereading FM warden clans and it mentions that the scorpions pretty much attacked the jags the moment they heard huntress was being assaulted. This netted them some nice territory etc.

Seems to me that the moment the smoke cleared on Albion after the adders crushed the burrock elite is when the spirits should have attacked.

With their much larger than known touman and mandrill allies as back up I think the case could have been made for them to take and hold the world and the ship yards.

Also if the adders did lose this prize it would have hobbled their bloated fleet and I would think it would have really upset the former burrocks which would have caused the adders more trouble

[rebs]

I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache. 

[Sjhernan3060]

I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache.

That is a great question! Per the FM the rank and file folks were horrified by the burrock leaderships collusion with the Dark. Hence why they rolled over for the adders. The spirits had never had to govern folks beyond their own for decades and I am very curious how they would have handled it

[Sjhernan3060]

Ok I just received the amazing shipyard kit from ravenstar studios which will feature heavily in this campaign. But the campaign needs a name! How about operation blood and fire?

Too on the nose?

[rebs]

Monkey Spirit would not be as good, and Monkey Blood might be too visceral.  So Blood and Fire or Fire Blood is the way to go.

[Sjhernan3060]

Lol I like monkey spirit!

[Generic Clanner 24601]

I admire your determination to upset the Adders.  Yes, Albion would be a boon, but will all those former Burrock civilians properly absorb when it's the Blood Spirits who are their new lords?  Seems like it would become the Spirits' newest headache.

I dunno. I admit, I'm fairly new to the universe, but I get the sense that civilian castes don't hold the same grudges that the warrior castes hold. They might not like the Blood Spirits, but if they are treated right, they'd probably get on board real quick. If not.... well, then they probably would be a headache.

[Sjhernan3060]

I dunno. I admit, I'm fairly new to the universe, but I get the sense that civilian castes don't hold the same grudges that the warrior castes hold. They might not like the Blood Spirits, but if they are treated right, they'd probably get on board real quick. If not.... well, then they probably would be a headache.

You know on the burrock/adder side I am not so sure. Up until the absorption the spirits and been in isolation

[Sjhernan3060]

After rereading the spirits sigma galaxy entry in fm crusaders it mentions they darn near revolted when they were not given permission to assist the mandrills... if another blood house wanted to join a kindraa from outside of the mandrills, would said house have to be abjured first?

[Guardian11]

After rereading the spirits sigma galaxy entry in fm crusaders it mentions they darn near revolted when they were not given permission to assist the mandrills... if another blood house wanted to join a kindraa from outside of the mandrills, would said house have to be abjured first?

Considering previous precedents like the Harvest Trials, and various Clusters and Galaxies changing hands, as well as the trading and trialing for various Bloodrights up to and including an entire Blood House. No abjuration would be required. If the 2 Clans are relatively friendly to each other and the Clan gaining the Blood House could offer enough to offset the loss of the Blood House they could make a trade. If the 2 Clans are unfriendly to each other or can't offer enough for a trade deal, they would need to initiate a Trial of Possession for the Blood House. Though currently in use Blood Houses are very valuable commodities, so it's almost unheard of outside Trials of Absorption for an entire Blood House to exclusively change hands from one Clan to another. Though gaining significant access to the use of the genes of a Blood House becomes quite common in the wake of the losses post WoR.

[Sjhernan3060]

That’s what inspired this thread!

I support the idea of a raven ship whupping any other clans ship one on one which is what made think of kindraa mick kreese as they are noted for their warship captains as well.

Frankly it always annoyed me that the scorpions had a nightlord as well...

In universe would other clans know that mick kreese has exceptional warship captains?

[rebs]

The Snow Ravens might notice.

Not sure about the other clans.

[Sjhernan3060]

The Snow Ravens might notice.

Not sure about the other clans.

That’s what would think as well. It’s the basis for my idea that a canny mandrill warship captain could pull off a stunning upset and net his kindraa a huge victory

[Nibs]

Given the earlier statement about the Ravens whooping any other Clans in a one-on-one battle, I have doubts.

I've always viewed the real-world parallel of the Snow Ravens' navy to the Royal Navy. I believe that the Ravens even maintained a Two Power Standard (naval power equivalent to at least two other powers combined) similar to the Victorian Brits.

While the Royal Navy has been responsible for some of the most famous naval victories in history, they didn't always have the most competent admirals (see: HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown, 1893). Accordingly, if you believe the parallel between the RN and Clan Snow Raven, the Raven obsession with naval power may indeed include some brilliant naval minds; however, it is largely formed on the basis of overwhelming firepower.

I can't think of any Snow Raven naval actions that relied on superior WarShip captains. While the whittling down of the Raven navy may have been sparked by real-world narrative desires to remove a staggeringly powerful force from a minor power (seriously, the Ravens' part in the Jihad was essentially "All of your WarShips blow up"), I can contextualize their losses as part of a weakness in the Ravens part. Too much shining-up-the-ships, parades, neatly-dressed officers, and not enough actual experience in naval combat (again, mirroring the Royal Navy of the late-Victorian age).

That is all to say, I would absolutely believe in the possibility of exceptional Mick-Kreese WarShip captains. They are forced to command their vessels isolated from the remainder of the Fire Mandrills' navy. They likely fight a bit more often against the other Kindraa, gaining experience in naval tactics. One-on-one, I don't think it is a given that the Ravens win (despite my factional allegiance!), due to their reliance on overwhelming numbers.

Given the relative obscurity of the Fire Mandrills and the rarity of naval combat, I doubt that even the Ravens would notice the skill of the Mick-Kreese captains. I think your idea of a stunning upset absolutely had merit, particularly when the other Clan has a stronger belief in their naval tradition. And hey, it doesn't have to be the Ravens either.

[Sjhernan3060]

Given the earlier statement about the Ravens whooping any other Clans in a one-on-one battle, I have doubts.

I've always viewed the real-world parallel of the Snow Ravens' navy to the Royal Navy. I believe that the Ravens even maintained a Two Power Standard (naval power equivalent to at least two other powers combined) similar to the Victorian Brits.

While the Royal Navy has been responsible for some of the most famous naval victories in history, they didn't always have the most competent admirals (see: HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown, 1893). Accordingly, if you believe the parallel between the RN and Clan Snow Raven, the Raven obsession with naval power may indeed include some brilliant naval minds; however, it is largely formed on the basis of overwhelming firepower.

I can't think of any Snow Raven naval actions that relied on superior WarShip captains. While the whittling down of the Raven navy may have been sparked by real-world narrative desires to remove a staggeringly powerful force from a minor power (seriously, the Ravens' part in the Jihad was essentially "All of your WarShips blow up"), I can contextualize their losses as part of a weakness in the Ravens part. Too much shining-up-the-ships, parades, neatly-dressed officers, and not enough actual experience in naval combat (again, mirroring the Royal Navy of the late-Victorian age).

That is all to say, I would absolutely believe in the possibility of exceptional Mick-Kreese WarShip captains. They are forced to command their vessels isolated from the remainder of the Fire Mandrills' navy. They likely fight a bit more often against the other Kindraa, gaining experience in naval tactics. One-on-one, I don't think it is a given that the Ravens win (despite my factional allegiance!), due to their reliance on overwhelming numbers.

Given the relative obscurity of the Fire Mandrills and the rarity of naval combat, I doubt that even the Ravens would notice the skill of the Mick-Kreese captains. I think your idea of a stunning upset absolutely had merit, particularly when the other Clan has a stronger belief in their naval tradition. And hey, it doesn't have to be the Ravens either.

Nibs thank you for that very insightful post! The seed for this thread came from my reread of FM crusaders which noted the very strong warship bloodlines of mick kreese and the wars of reaving source book where a raven captain challenged for and won nearly an entire naval star.

[Nibs]

Nibs thank you for that very insightful post! The seed for this thread came from my reread of FM crusaders which noted the very strong warship bloodlines of mick kreese and the wars of reaving source book where a raven captain challenged for and won nearly an entire naval star.

Oh, I don't remember this one! I have my Wars of Reaving here under my desk; do you recall the page(s) that this happens?

[Sjhernan3060]

Oh, I don't remember this one! I have my Wars of Reaving here under my desk; do you recall the page(s) that this happens?

Here ya https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Sagitta

[Sjhernan3060]

Also another another target for our dynamic duo would have been the Brian caches of the jags or nova cats

[rebs]

As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

[Sjhernan3060]

As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

I also in my head have the idea that as a clan with a big fleet a convo or cache of warships would have been possible targets

[Sjhernan3060]

I just reread some source books and holy heck the absorption war was a waste for the spirits! They lost 5 galaxies and got nothing!! If they had held off a year they could have dropped a huge force on huntress or any other tempting target with a very good chance of holding it.

[Sjhernan3060]

Smaller scale idea: the spirits eventually took over the mandrills watch in canon but I am not sure if it is stated what they got in return?

Perhaps some of the ultra elite mick kreese pilots were loaned out as trainers to beef up the spirits naval arm?

[Sjhernan3060]

Smaller scale idea: the spirits eventually took over the mandrills watch in canon but I am not sure if it is stated what they got in return?

Perhaps some of the ultra elite mick kreese pilots were loaned out as trainers to beef up the spirits naval arm?

Would the watch have been used to scout out secret colony sites?

[AlphaMirage]

I don't think the Watch were used for colony sites I thought it was Merchants that found Colleen and Merchants are likely the only caste with the freedom (under the watchful eye of a Warrior minder) and incentive to find new habitable systems. In my opinion the Spirits took the Mandrill Watch over at the Loremaster's request in exchange for support of the Kindraa in the event of an attack and to use them as an alternate intermediaries to the Sharks for trade reasons. They also probably received aid in developing weapon designs and expanding factories from the Mandrills which were undergoing a bit of an expansion before being kicked down during Reaving.

[Warship]

I just reread some source books and holy heck the absorption war was a waste for the spirits! They lost 5 galaxies and got nothing!! If they had held off a year they could have dropped a huge force on huntress or any other tempting target with a very good chance of holding it.

Yep.  It did not make any sense.  They could/should have waited for the Absorption to end and then trial for select parts of the Burrocks.  The Adders would probably have been glad to pare down those new troops and maybe some of their holdings which may not have been worth defending.   

[Sjhernan3060]

I don't think the Watch were used for colony sites I thought it was Merchants that found Colleen and Merchants are likely the only caste with the freedom (under the watchful eye of a Warrior minder) and incentive to find new habitable systems. In my opinion the Spirits took the Mandrill Watch over at the Loremaster's request in exchange for support of the Kindraa in the event of an attack and to use them as an alternate intermediaries to the Sharks for trade reasons. They also probably received aid in developing weapon designs and expanding factories from the Mandrills which were undergoing a bit of an expansion before being kicked down during Reaving.

That makes sense. I also just love the idea of the poor spirit warrior who had to knock heads together on their joint watch unit.

[Sjhernan3060]

Yep.  It did not make any sense.  They could/should have waited for the Absorption to end and then trial for select parts of the Burrocks.  The Adders would probably have been glad to pare down those new troops and maybe some of their holdings which may not have been worth defending.

Exactly! The mandrills also should have done this. Heck between the spirits and mandrills aggressively going after former burrock assets they could have really blunted the adders growth.

For that matter rather than batter themselves in wasteful conflicts during the WOR the mandrills should’ve shined! They could have snap up some choice bloodnames and formed new kindraa

[Sjhernan3060]

During the abjuration of the nova cats did the mandrills or spirits get involved if so where?

[Sjhernan3060]

Yep.  It did not make any sense.  They could/should have waited for the Absorption to end and then trial for select parts of the Burrocks.  The Adders would probably have been glad to pare down those new troops and maybe some of their holdings which may not have been worth defending.

In addition once more clans left or where kicked out the spirits and mandrills could have really claimed a lot more

[Sjhernan3060]

While in canon the proto phenotype was developed by the spirits and cobras:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ProtoMech_Phenotype

Could the mandrills have done so as well and or did they adopt it?

[Kerfuffin(925)]

While in canon the proto phenotype was developed by the spirits and cobras:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/ProtoMech_Phenotype

Could the mandrills have done so as well and or did they adopt it?

They couldn’t have done it on their own probably, it’s mentioned that even their scientists were split along kindra lines and they had bad research cause of it. Unless they felt it was Omni level they wouldn’t be able to band together long enough to make it work.

And even if they did the fact it takes 20 years to get a single warrior out of it would hamper them, they would have died out as soon as they were getting the first generation.

[Sjhernan3060]

They couldn’t have done it on their own probably, it’s mentioned that even their scientists were split along kindra lines and they had bad research cause of it. Unless they felt it was Omni level they wouldn’t be able to band together long enough to make it work.

And even if they did the fact it takes 20 years to get a single warrior out of it would hamper them, they would have died out as soon as they were getting the first generation.

Sigh oh mandrills... medium and long term planning just is not your thing!

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Sigh oh mandrills... medium and long term planning just is not your thing!

not sure short term is something they plan for either.  ???

[Sjhernan3060]

Yep.  It did not make any sense.  They could/should have waited for the Absorption to end and then trial for select parts of the Burrocks.  The Adders would probably have been glad to pare down those new troops and maybe some of their holdings which may not have been worth defending.

Did the various kindraa all collectively dislike the burrocks? If so that is another reason to wait the chaotic mandrills could have broken off more chunks of former burrock strength from the adders

[Sjhernan3060]

They couldn’t have done it on their own probably, it’s mentioned that even their scientists were split along kindra lines and they had bad research cause of it. Unless they felt it was Omni level they wouldn’t be able to band together long enough to make it work.

And even if they did the fact it takes 20 years to get a single warrior out of it would hamper them, they would have died out as soon as they were getting the first generation.

Again in an AU where the mandrills were unmandrill, the development of proto tech could have helped the kindraa work together to adopt and improve proto tech earlier

[Sjhernan3060]

I don't think the Watch were used for colony sites I thought it was Merchants that found Colleen and Merchants are likely the only caste with the freedom (under the watchful eye of a Warrior minder) and incentive to find new habitable systems. In my opinion the Spirits took the Mandrill Watch over at the Loremaster's request in exchange for support of the Kindraa in the event of an attack and to use them as an alternate intermediaries to the Sharks for trade reasons. They also probably received aid in developing weapon designs and expanding factories from the Mandrills which were undergoing a bit of an expansion before being kicked down during Reaving.

As ties between the spirits and mandrills got closer I am surprised that the mandrills esp mick kreese with its strong navy were not more heavily involved with the spirits new colonies
S

[Sjhernan3060]

I assume each kindraa leader tended to act with out the say so of the khan but would the opposite have been true of the spirits?

[Sjhernan3060]

As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

As fast as they had to pull up stakes I would imagine some caches had to be abandon


What were some common second line Mech and or vechiles the nova cats would have cached?

[Sjhernan3060]

3 days, don't wanna seem desperate  ;)

Lol! But seriously what IS the acceptable wait time?

[Sjhernan3060]

As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

That’s a great point I always got the sense that the nova cats were always on the top tier of resources so I would assume they had well stocked caches which likely had not been tapped since the golden century. However their escape from the homeworlds was a rushed mess so I have to believe a huge amount of material was left

[Sjhernan3060]

They couldn’t have done it on their own probably, it’s mentioned that even their scientists were split along kindra lines and they had bad research cause of it. Unless they felt it was Omni level they wouldn’t be able to band together long enough to make it work.

And even if they did the fact it takes 20 years to get a single warrior out of it would hamper them, they would have died out as soon as they were getting the first generation.

I am curious about the specific handicaps the mandrills fractured nature would have caused amongst scientists. Would for example prototypes and research teams be reapeatldy trailed over?

[Sjhernan3060]

I assume each kindraa leader tended to act with out the say so of the khan but would the opposite have been true of the spirits?

Bumping this up again

[Nibs]

I assume each kindraa leader tended to act with out the say so of the khan but would the opposite have been true of the spirits?

I seem to recall a statement in one of the sourcebooks which stated that the Spirit officers were reluctant to take their own initiative, which did handicap their actions in the Absorption War.

[Sjhernan3060]

Hand the Warships out to the others for prestige, political favours and resources. Or, keep them all and declare themselves to be the new core of the Clan's naval might.

The Warships don't really have any use in strong-arming the other Kindraa, even the Mandrills wouldn't be crazy enough to orbitally bombard their rivals' enclaves.

So I think I know the answer to this but in the scenario outlined earlier: say kindraa mick kreese without khan approval trialed for and won a several warships from a rival clan. If kindraa mick kreese said: “
Well we are the core of clans navy now so if the clan who we attacked counter strikes it should be seen as a threat to all kindraa” but even as typed that I can imagine the other kindraa would be like: hey man you brought this on yourself!

[Sjhernan3060]

With all the great mandrill discussions happening because of the recent Sharpnel story, I was wondering did the smythe jewels actually do any joint missions with the spirits?

[Sjhernan3060]

With all the great mandrill discussions happening because of the recent Sharpnel story, I was wondering did the smythe jewels actually do any joint missions with the spirits?

Also the sharpnel story really paints the smythe jewels in a bad light do we think they were waiting to cross the spirits?

[Sjhernan3060]

Also the sharpnel story really paints the smythe jewels in a bad light do we think they were waiting to cross the spirits?

Following up on this: the mandrills are beloved by the spirits due to the history with the smythe jewels but everything else I have read on them the smythe/jewels were shady as heck! So would they have betrayed the spirits given time?

[Alan Grant]

We don't know. Pure speculation either way.

[Sjhernan3060]

We don't know. Pure speculation either way.

I guess it’s lucky for the mandrills that the other kindraa dealt fairly with the spirits

[Sjhernan3060]

Immediately after the burrock absorption the adders moth balled a number of captured warships. If the mandrills or spirits trialed for them
Do we think the adders would have fought hard to keep
Them out of spite?

[Sjhernan3060]

What I am hearing is that the mandrills and spirits lacked raw materials and or factory capacity. What viable targets could they have hit and held in the wars of possession?

Atreus? Huntress?

[Gaiiten]

Immediately after the burrock absorption the adders moth balled a number of captured warships. If the mandrills or spirits trialed for them
Do we think the adders would have fought hard to keep
Them out of spite?

IMHO the Adders would have fought very hard to keep these warships.
However I do not think that the Spirit`s Navy would have been capable to fight a Trial of Possession after the Absorption War. Their naval forces were devastated in the fighting.

For the Mandrills, I think they could have done it. BUT, due their kindraas could not agree about a strategy and a Kindraa lone would not have been cabale to maintain another warship, they did not.

[Sjhernan3060]

IMHO the Adders would have fought very hard to keep these warships.
However I do not think that the Spirit`s Navy would have been capable to fight a Trial of Possession after the Absorption War. Their naval forces were devastated in the fighting.

For the Mandrills, I think they could have done it. BUT, due their kindraas could not agree about a strategy and a Kindraa lone would not have been cabale to maintain another warship, they did not.

I must agree chasing more warships before they strengthened their economies would not have been very helpful

[Sjhernan3060]

As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

I agree with the Nova Cat”s as a viable option for a cache. I assume due to their chaotic withdrawal any thing that valuable would have been snapped up and plundered quickly? Follow up question: is everything in a cache in basic working order?

[Sjhernan3060]

Have the Blood Spirits higher a sizable fleet from the Snow Ravens and attack Albion. Albion is close to York so you wont need a long supply chain and it was  capital so has lots of manufacturing facilities. Offer the Ravens 10% of the system, the Cheop yards and any Battleship/cruisers they claim as isoral. This nets you the rest of the defending warships and access to any in system caches they may have. Then you have the Ravens right there with yards to bring them up to fighting status for you.

...I may be thinking of offering the Blood Spirits in my game a similar deal. The move just makes sense for both clans to me.

A number of wiser heads then I have convinced me to temper my quixotic obsession with gaining warships the neither the spirits or kindraa mick kreese could maintain as of 3060. Instead it’s seems trialing for and holding at all costs the Cheops shipyards would secure an asset which continue to pay off. Who ever owned it could make income via yard time, create a new trading hub, and limit the adders ability to fully capitalize on their new found wealth of warships

[tassa_kay]

A number of wiser heads then I have convinced me to temper my quixotic obsession with gaining warships the neither the spirits or kindraa mick kreese could maintain as of 3060. Instead it’s seems trialing for and holding at all costs the Cheops shipyards would secure an asset which continue to pay off. Who ever owned it could make income via yard time, create a new trading hub, and limit the adders ability to fully capitalize on their new found wealth of warships

Honestly, I don't see this ever happening, either. There's no way the Mandrills could muster the naval force needed to take the Adders' most important shipyards away from them.

[Sjhernan3060]

As a point of clarification while both the spirits and mandrills are noted as:” resource poor” were they both poor in manufacturing capacity AND raw materials? I always assumed the spirits had the factories etc but never had the raw materials to really crank out units

[Sjhernan3060]

As a point of clarification while both the spirits and mandrills are noted as:” resource poor” were they both poor in manufacturing capacity AND raw materials? I always assumed the spirits had the factories etc but never had the raw materials to really crank out units

Clarification on this. Post invasion did the mandrills provide raw materials for the spirits?

[Sjhernan3060]

I agree with the Nova Cat”s as a viable option for a cache. I assume due to their chaotic withdrawal any thing that valuable would have been snapped up and plundered quickly? Follow up question: is everything in a cache in basic working order?

What worlds would be “off the beaten path” enough for a cache to have not been taken quickly?

[tassa_kay]

As a point of clarification while both the spirits and mandrills are noted as:” resource poor” were they both poor in manufacturing capacity AND raw materials? I always assumed the spirits had the factories etc but never had the raw materials to really crank out units

It's never really specified, but I personally suspect it's more the opposite: while York itself is self-sufficient, the Spirits seemed to lack in manufacturing capacity. Example: the Fire Mandrills had a factory on York making Delphynes. Or the fact that the Spirits were specifically targeting a lot of factories during the WoR.

[Alan Grant]

What worlds would be “off the beaten path” enough for a cache to have not been taken quickly?

During the Wars of Reaving era we see lots of hints of "off the beaten path" stuff. Naval caches in particular (and that doesn't have to mean warships, it can mean jumpships, dropships, as well as stores of supplies just suspended on space). Often in uninhabited systems with very technical names.

A good example is Depot MSKC-2, a naval cache in a planetless system. The Star Adders go there in the book Wars of Reaving looking to reactivate some warships after the losses they've taken, but find Dark Caste/Society already there and it turns into a fight. The Lola III Cameron's Flame was destroyed there.

I know there are other examples, but I can't look at the books right now. The point is that I would look to uninhabited star systems for "off the beaten path" whatever you need. The Clans did a lot of exploring of the adjacent space and of the star systems in around and between the Clan Homeworlds and the Pentagon worlds. In the process the canon evidence suggests they found lots of good places to store stuff. Probably presuming if they left it off the public star maps it would be relatively secure (at least that was the theory, the Wars of Reaving era proved that theory wrong).

The actual Clan Homeworlds/Pentagon Worlds. Not so much, although space caches are definitely still an option. We see the Sharks sneak into a naval cache in the Babylon system and recover the SLS Marseilles after their ejection from the Homeworlds. Generally speaking, any cache of any decent size, the other Clans know it's there. They know where the Castle Brians are and where big stores of anything will be. Can't rule out the odd bunker complex not found on a map. sitting in a sparsely populated part of a planet, but anything bigger than that close to civilization is probably bordering on unrealistic.

As for the Nova Cat's caches, they were probably all or mostly plundered quite quickly. As much to claim what was there as it was to deny it to Nova Cats and to kill some of them. The other Clans weren't just out for resources or enclaves, they were also looking for Nova Cats to kill. They totally ignored guidance from the Grand Council that basically said the Nova Cats were supposed to be allowed a grace period to leave the Homeworlds Instead most of the other Clans pounded them, ignoring Zell and shredding every Nova Cat they could find. They aggressively went after the Nova Cats everywhere they could think to look. After the Great Refusal they were just that angry. Given that relentless drive, I think they didn't leave too many stones unturned in their effort to find even one more Nova Cat to kill.

But some unmanned or mostly unmanned naval cache in space somewhere? In an otherwise uninhabited system? I could see that being neglected or forgotten for a bit longer. Perhaps long enough for another Clan to get at it, loot it, and get out again without tremendous interference by the other Clans. We don't have any canon evidence of anything like that happening. But I think it wouldn't be that unrealistic.

[Sjhernan3060]

During the Wars of Reaving era we see lots of hints of "off the beaten path" stuff. Naval caches in particular (and that doesn't have to mean warships, it can mean jumpships, dropships, as well as stores of supplies just suspended on space). Often in uninhabited systems with very technical names.

A good example is Depot MSKC-2, a naval cache in a planetless system. The Star Adders go there in the book Wars of Reaving looking to reactivate some warships after the losses they've taken, but find Dark Caste/Society already there and it turns into a fight. The Lola III Cameron's Flame was destroyed there.

I know there are other examples, but I can't look at the books right now. The point is that I would look to uninhabited star systems for "off the beaten path" whatever you need. The Clans did a lot of exploring of the adjacent space and of the star systems in around and between the Clan Homeworlds and the Pentagon worlds. In the process the canon evidence suggests they found lots of good places to store stuff. Probably presuming if they left it off the public star maps it would be relatively secure (at least that was the theory, the Wars of Reaving era proved that theory wrong).

The actual Clan Homeworlds/Pentagon Worlds. Not so much, although space caches are definitely still an option. We see the Sharks sneak into a naval cache in the Babylon system and recover the SLS Marseilles after their ejection from the Homeworlds. Generally speaking, any cache of any decent size, the other Clans know it's there. They know where the Castle Brians are and where big stores of anything will be. Can't rule out the odd bunker complex not found on a map. sitting in a sparsely populated part of a planet, but anything bigger than that close to civilization is probably bordering on unrealistic.

As for the Nova Cat's caches, they were probably all or mostly plundered quite quickly. As much to claim what was there as it was to deny it to Nova Cats and to kill some of them. The other Clans weren't just out for resources or enclaves, they were also looking for Nova Cats to kill. They totally ignored guidance from the Grand Council that basically said the Nova Cats were supposed to be allowed a grace period to leave the Homeworlds Instead most of the other Clans pounded them, ignoring Zell and shredding every Nova Cat they could find. They aggressively went after the Nova Cats everywhere they could think to look. After the Great Refusal they were just that angry. Given that relentless drive, I think they didn't leave too many stones unturned in their effort to find even one more Nova Cat to kill.

But some unmanned or mostly unmanned naval cache in space somewhere? In an otherwise uninhabited system? I could see that being neglected or forgotten for a bit longer. Perhaps long enough for another Clan to get at it, loot it, and get out again without tremendous interference by the other Clans. We don't have any canon evidence of anything like that happening. But I think it wouldn't be that unrealistic.

Great points! Also the mandrills and spirits strike me as two clans who would have been PO enough to just lunge at the nova cats as soon as they could such as hitting a convo or ill defended enclave. Do we have a pre great refusal breakdown of what worked the cats held in clan space?

[Sjhernan3060]

After rereading the spirits sigma galaxy entry in fm crusaders it mentions they darn near revolted when they were not given permission to assist the mandrills... if another blood house wanted to join a kindraa from outside of the mandrills, would said house have to be abjured first?

Following up on this what is the process for another house to join the mandrills to form a new kindraa

[tassa_kay]

I don't see that scenario ever happening. Not only are the Mandrills very insular, rivaling the Blood Spirits in that respect, but I can't even fathom a circumstance in which an entire Bloodhouse would willingly leave their own Clan to join another Clan.

[Alan Grant]

I agree with Tassa. That's not a thing, there is no process.
 
A series of things would have to click into place that seem almost impossible. Basically, every other Kindraa would have to decide to accept the newcomers and be willing to support that decision. Given how little the Kindraa actually agree on anything, let alone a question/issue of this magnitude, that seems unrealistic.

As part of that, to be successful, I'd imagine this new Kindraa would have to bring a lot to the table. So they'd have their own equipment, their own enclaves etc. Because the other Kindraa aren't going to give them that stuff. Why would they?

More than that, they'd probably have to shower all the other Kindraa with gifts and things in order to curry their favor and support to get this going. It would truly have to be a deal that the Mandrills can't refuse. Here's a free cluster's worth of equipment and a pre-fabricated BattleMech factory.

But that same process would also carry a lot of suspicion that this is some kind of trick by another Clan intended to infiltrate the Mandrills and destroy them from the inside. A kind of doom loop that I don't see how you can break out of.

On top of that, outside of the Mandrills which treat the Kindraa as Clan-level entities for purposes of ownership, Bloodname Houses don't really own their own stuff. Warrior equipment, enclaves, sibkos, genetic legacies. It's all owned by the Clan, not the Bloodname House. So unless the originating Clan basically orchestrated this plan, it likely doesn't happen. If the originating Clan does support this attempt to create a Kindraa, that adds to the doom loop logic that this is a trap of some trap designed to infiltrate the Mandrills.

Could someone have perhaps coughed up an outlandish version of this that worked during the Wars of Reaving era? The survivors of a Clan, that happen to be of a particular Bloodname House, flee to the Mandrills before they starve to death? Perhaps, but even then I'd expect the Mandrills to just absorb that into one or more existing Kindraa, not stand up a new one.

Sorry, I don't see a path forward on this.

[Sjhernan3060]

As you and others  pointed out in the Save the Jags thread, the Smoke Jaguars Brian caches are well nigh cashed in all likelyhood.  But the Nova Cat caches are probably a safe bet for decent equipment - from Star League designs, to IIC's, to to the occasional older OmniMechs.   The Nova Cats were a relatively rich Clan, so anything is possible, certainly all this.

Re: possible nova cat caches what worlds did the cats hold that the spirits or mandrills could have hit quickly?

[WONC]

Barcella was their capitol, but it's on the other side of the Homeworlds from the Mandrills. Other holdings are more scattered around, but the Pentagon worlds would make sense as the best bet. They're the longest settled, had the most infrastructure, and for the purposes of a raid are a lot closer to each other. I can't remember off the top of my head, but Circe(?) comes to mind as the world that might fit your bill.

[Sjhernan3060]

Barcella was their capitol, but it's on the other side of the Homeworlds from the Mandrills. Other holdings are more scattered around, but the Pentagon worlds would make sense as the best bet. They're the longest settled, had the most infrastructure, and for the purposes of a raid are a lot closer to each other. I can't remember off the top of my head, but Circe(?) comes to mind as the world that might fit your bill.

Thank you! I am now off to sarna to do some research