Question: Area Effect (Blast) weapons

[Grand_dm]

Page 172 states:

Area-Effect (Blast) Weapons
Area-effect weapons (also known as blast weapons) are a special class of weapon that includes rocket launchers, grenades and mortars. These weapons—identifed by an “A” in their Base Damage (BD) codes—deliver their damage by spreading it out over a wider area than standard ranged weaponry. The attack roll for these weapons refects where the center of the blast will occur, and may be directed against a character or a target area (the latter is considered an immobile target, with no size modifer). Because of the area-efect weapon’s wider “footprint,” it receives a +2 attack roll modifer when resolving fre.

Does this mean I can just target a hex with my direct fire grenade launcher at +6 to hit? +2 for AE and +4 for Immobile target?

Seems way overpowered.

Note: I reposted this in rules questions.

[Grand_dm]

No one taking a bite? I can't be the first person to notice this.

[Daryk]

AOE weapons have always been high powered.  Shadowrun went so far as to explicitly call the rules around them the "chunky salsa effect".

[Grand_dm]

I just think +6 to hit in a game that is already incredibly deadly, is overkill. AND on a weapon that does area effect damage to boot.

It just creates a gamey meta.

Every PC and every NPC should just be using a compact grenade launcher on their rifle.

[Dahmin_Toran]

Remember that the +4 immobile bonus only applies if you target the ground, not a character. I don't easily targeting the ground as overpowered. Don't get caught out in the open if the opponent has an RPG or Grenade Launcher.

[Grand_dm]

Remember that the +4 immobile bonus only applies if you target the ground, not a character.

Absolutely. But why would you ever target a character? Just fire at their hex. Alternatively, if they are behind cover just target an adjacent hex.

It seems broken to me.

[Dahmin_Toran]

It could be, but I think it makes sense as well. Remember if you cannot see the target you have to Indirect Fire at -4 (-2 with a spotter). So if you jump behind a wall, they have to use IF to target you.

[Grand_dm]

It could be, but I think it makes sense as well. Remember if you cannot see the target you have to Indirect Fire at -4 (-2 with a spotter). So if you jump behind a wall, they have to use IF to target you.

It still does not fix it. If I can see an adjacent hex I just direct fire at that. Likely the one behind them. Small price to pay in the loss of AP/BD. And it becomes laughable when the Automatic Grenade Launcher is bursting 5. All of which are resolved as individual Grenade attacks.

[Daryk]

It's not much different from an Artillery Cannon in TW, really.

[Grand_dm]

It's not much different from an Artillery Cannon in TW, really.

The difference is that armor is more effective in TW. In ATOW these rules reduce characters to hamburger in one turn. There is virtually no reason to use anything but grenade launchers as presented.

[Daryk]

There's also no reason not to wear non-encumbering heavy armor (looking at Lyran and Davion armor jackets here).

[Dahmin_Toran]

Also it is not like grenade launchers are not as cheap or available as other small arms. And all you need to do is spread out and put as much lead downrange at the poor sod with the grenade launcher.

[Grand_dm]

Also it is not like grenade launchers are not as cheap or available as other small arms. And all you need to do is spread out and put as much lead downrange at the poor sod with the grenade launcher.

Right, but it's a game. And +6 to hit wins the day every time. It's just too good. If the side with Grenade Launchers wins initiative it's over.

[Daryk]

My money's on the guy with the sniper rifle, personally... ;)

[pokefan548]

My money's on the guy who shoots first. Grenade launchers don't tend to be particularly useful if you're unconscious and taking effective fire.

Anyways, IRL grenade launchers also tend to be pretty OP as infantry weapons go... in a vacuum. They tend to be a tad hard to use around civilians, priceless artifacts, etc., however. There's also a lot of extra potential for them to go wrong. With a bullet, you need to check your background insofar as a brick wall. With a grenade launcher, you need to make sure that wall has legit armor plating before you go turning a chunk of the building into a bunch of frag and pelting your buddy on the other side with it.

As for why it's a +2? I'm guessing it's for quick handling of the area of effect in a theater of the mind's eye engagement. They do talk about horseshoes and hand grenades after all. Personally, I'd do what Alpha Strike does and swap it to a -2 or nix it entirely for mapped play.

[Carbon Elasmobranch]

AOE weapons have always been high powered.  Shadowrun went so far as to explicitly call the rules around them the "chunky salsa effect".

Specifically when a blast happens in an enclosed space, causing the wave to reflect several times and increase the Power of a grenade from 15 to somewhere beyond 20 or 30.

[Grand_dm]

As for why it's a +2? I'm guessing it's for quick handling of the area of effect in a theater of the mind's eye engagement. They do talk about horseshoes and hand grenades after all. Personally, I'd do what Alpha Strike does and swap it to a -2 or nix it entirely for mapped play.

I can only speak for myself, but I play a LOT of ATOW.

I think a big part of the problem is ATOW is built for theater of the mind OR map play. Not exclusively for one or the other. And it leans pretty heavy on the former. That's where things like the +2 AE bonus come from potentially. So I agree with you. Seems like abstraction.

Map play really complicates the outcomes. Because you have a bird's eye view of where everyone is. Unless some sort of fog of war is instituted, which would slow combat even more. So things like perfect placement of adjacent attacks occur. And when you use the game math, to meta/devastating results.

Even where the book talks about cover, it never seems to consider that people will just take the AP/BD reduction to attack adjacent hexes.

I mean why not? At +6 to hit it's a no brainer.

[Daryk]

When you stack no penalty heavy armor on actual cover, grenades become a LOT less deadly.

[Grand_dm]

When you stack no penalty heavy armor on actual cover, grenades become a LOT less deadly.

Sure, but that still does not really address the Atlas in the room.

I'm still struggling with the Immobile target mod. It must not have occured to the designers that players would just take the AP/BD reduction and attack an adjacent hex. And with huge mods to do so, virtually guaranteeing it will go where they want every time. The rules are filled with examples of cover and hiding behind it. Not a single mention (that I could find) of being attacked from adjacent hexes to your cover with a Blast attack.

[Daryk]

Armor subtracts from both AP and BD... that counts for a lot.

[Dahmin_Toran]

I can only speak for myself, but I play a LOT of ATOW.

I think a big part of the problem is ATOW is built for theater of the mind OR map play. Not exclusively for one or the other. And it leans pretty heavy on the former. That's where things like the +2 AE bonus come from potentially. So I agree with you. Seems like abstraction.

Map play really complicates the outcomes. Because you have a bird's eye view of where everyone is. Unless some sort of fog of war is instituted, which would slow combat even more. So things like perfect placement of adjacent attacks occur. And when you use the game math, to meta/devastating results.

Even where the book talks about cover, it never seems to consider that people will just take the AP/BD reduction to attack adjacent hexes.

I mean why not? At +6 to hit it's a no brainer.

You say that ATOW is mainly geared towards theatre-of-the-mind, which I partially agree. Do you include ATOW mech/vehicle combat in that as well?

[Grand_dm]

Dahmin: Our group uses ATOW for characters and we zoom out to Battletech for 'Mechs etc. That said, I will occasionally do smaller support vehicle stuff with ATOW.

[Horsemen]

That's a +6 to the base TN and you still have potential range modifiers. That +4 is only for the movement. All other modifiers can potentially apply. It also depends on what size of a hex you are using. Because the damage drops off per meter and if you are direct firing from an adjacent hex then you're taking a risk.

Yes the game uses Theater of the Mind but even if you are using maps you would be using smaller hex sizes. Under the Tactical Combat Addendum it recommends either 5 meters for a hex or 1 inch equals one meter for terrain.

[Grand_dm]

That's a +6 to the base TN and you still have potential range modifiers. That +4 is only for the movement. All other modifiers can potentially apply. It also depends on what size of a hex you are using. Because the damage drops off per meter and if you are direct firing from an adjacent hex then you're taking a risk.

Yes the game uses Theater of the Mind but even if you are using maps you would be using smaller hex sizes. Under the Tactical Combat Addendum it recommends either 5 meters for a hex or 1 inch equals one meter for terrain.

No one is direct firing from an adjacent hex. They are direct firing at the hex adjacent to their target.

That affords them +4 for immobile target and another +2 for AE. And it gets around any forward facing cover the target is using.

Edit: we are playing with 1 or 2 meter hexes however. So as you can imagine, that exacerbates the issue.

[Horsemen]

Some times yes it will be that easy if you have optimal conditions. No visibility modifiers. Short Range. No terrain in the way. Optimal conditions, yes, grenade likely wins.

Most combat, we've played is far from optimal, and every group I've played with even when we were playing in the Jihad was concerned about collateral. Depending on era and circumstance there may be a limited supply of grenades. Before we get into supply chain presuming one is dealing with actually running the costs of the unit.

On paper, grenades rock, but there are a multiple number of factors that should be considered and applied in play of an RPG.

The beauty of an RPG is if you don't like the number, change it if you're the GM.

[Grand_dm]

The beauty of an RPG is if you don't like the number, change it if you're the GM.

I agree, but every change has far reaching effects. Clearly, the RAW is goofy when it comes to grenades that are direct fired.