"Customized" DropShips

[Go For The Throat]

So, I have recently run into a couple of problems involving finding DropShips to transport a couple of different units (one for a current game, another for an upcoming one). As a result of my inability to find canon DropShips appropriately configured to carry the forces in question, I was wondering how common layout's outside of those listed in TROs would be? Especially as one of the units in question is a Reinforced Combined-Arms Company of Mercenaries that does not own their own DropShip, and must rely on their employer to provide it.

[Lorcan Nagle]

I'd say a significant number of civilian and merc DropShips are customised to some degree, but the odds of one being perfectly suited to your unit's needs and being available in the system you're transiting from would be slim.  It's worth noting that unless you're going to be performing a raid or asault there's little need to transport your unit in a military transport.  Mechs and vehicles can be carried as cargo if there's no rush to unload them at the destination.

[pheonixstorm]

The Seeker is one of the few dropships that can be easily reconfigured. Another I think is the Aurora it is within your timeframe.

[Cache]

Especially as one of the units in question is a Reinforced Combined-Arms Company of Mercenaries that does not own their own DropShip, and must rely on their employer to provide it.

It sounds like the employer would be furnishing multiple, smaller dropships.

[Colt Ward]

As Lorcan said, if you are not dropping hot then you can unload as cargo . . . or if you do not need your whole unit to drop hot (kind of hard with vehicles . . . but anything is airdrop-able once) then you can split between two that will deposit your mechs, BA or infantry into a LZ and let a cargo ship unload everyone else.

[Colodie]

Another option is to make your own DropShip.  I believe that the backstory of TRO:3057 is that it only highlights the most common DropShips.  So, presuming you have what would be considered a relatively common organization scheme, you could just say your using a less common, but still acquirable DropShip.

For example, I don't think there are any canon DropShips that just hold a battalion of vehicles.  There are some that hold that, plus 'Mechs, and infantry, and whatnot.  But no dedicated vehicle ones (If there are, replace battalion with company or regiment).  Same with infantry.  But just because there aren't any described doesn't mean you can't say they exist.

[Colt Ward]

Honestly, there are not many vehicle carriers because you use mechs, infantry and BA to secure a DZ.  Supposedly there are variants of the typical mech carriers- Leopards, Unions and Overlords- that are fit for mechs, etc.  We do have some infantry carriers from the SL-era IIRC, as well as some mechanized infantry carriers (light vehs & infantry) but not too many choices.  They also introduced the ancestors in the Lion, Confederate, Black Eagle, Dictator and others . . . which can be found off the beaten path.

[Lorcan Nagle]

As Lorcan said, if you are not dropping hot then you can unload as cargo . . . or if you do not need your whole unit to drop hot (kind of hard with vehicles . . . but anything is airdrop-able once) then you can split between two that will deposit your mechs, BA or infantry into a LZ and let a cargo ship unload everyone else.

As a quick technicality, the reason for vehicle bays isn't hot drops (though you can drop them from upper atmosphere using dropchutes), but so you can roll them right out of a DropShip and into combat, 2 per turn per bay door.

Units carried in cargo take much longer to unload.

[beachhead1985]

If you think about it; modified DS should really be the rule for a lot of outfits; especially mercs and the ComGaurd and WOBM.

How hard is it? Geeze i'm divided on that. It's a *lot* of work, but harder to add mech and fighter bays than anything else and likely easiest to add light vehicle bays. Infantry, remember need a certain about of physical space that should make that more difficult.

[Colt Ward]

You can also play with it and say you have a quirk . . . 'No Dropchute for 2nd deck mech cubicles' or something where you add them.  It means you cannot do orbital drops but they COULD walk off the deck out the hatch like we have heard of before . . .

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

 Customization is limited by time and how much you are willing to spend. One of my players takes Mule DSs and puts over 1,000 points of armor per location and still has plenty of room for units and artillery batteries... His Mules could probably take on warships, if I let them...

[Highball]

I think the ship you are looking to use is the Triumph. This ship is described as being converted to carry every possible unit type out there and is described as the most common dropship out there. I can imagine a Triumph would be a units first dropship as it is the most versatile.

[beachhead1985]

I assume at the faction-level dropship assignment can have a rhyme and reason, but if you're doing the roll-a-merc-unit thing, then the ship you get or have a shot at getting is more or less random.

Say you have three mechs; two fighters a tank and two infantry platoons. But you roll up a leopard. It's what you get. For the cost of nothing your infantry can be really uncomfortable ( and everyone else given the design limits of the air circ system. For more time in the shop and money you can get proper bays and an upgraded life support system. for more you could add on some extra life pods/boats.

[Colt Ward]

You CAN attempt to pick up a specific model . . . its just a lot harder, and I sort of think a waste of time/asset.

With that said, I applied all the factors and lucked into a obsolete Fortress- instant artillery!

[Chaeronea]

With all the talk about DropShips, can DropShips have small craft bays as part of their design? Or are small craft bays restricted to JumpShips and WarShips?

[Archangel]

With all the talk about DropShips, can DropShips have small craft bays as part of their design? Or are small craft bays restricted to JumpShips and WarShips?

Yes, there are several DropShip designs that have small craft bays including the Kuan Ti, Achilles, Vengeance, Octopus, Rose, Nekohono'o, Conquistador, Mammoth and Behemoth.

[mdauben]

Honestly, there are not many vehicle carriers because you use mechs, infantry and BA to secure a DZ.  Supposedly there are variants of the typical mech carriers- Leopards, Unions and Overlords- that are fit for mechs, etc.  We do have some infantry carriers from the SL-era IIRC, as well as some mechanized infantry carriers (light vehs & infantry) but not too many choices.  They also introduced the ancestors in the Lion, Confederate, Black Eagle, Dictator and others . . . which can be found off the beaten path.

I have a combined arms Merc battalion that I used the following to carry:

• Mech Company (+2 ASF) - Union Class
• Foot Inf. Company - Union Combined-Arms Class
• Armor Company (+2 ASF) - Union Cargo Hauler

Obviously, the Cargo Hauler isn't suitable for combat drops but I figured the Mechs and Infantry would handle that.  Plus, I could not find a dedicated IS company sized armored vehicle hauler for the 3050 time period. 

[Col Toda]

I had the same problem until I started to own my Drop Ships as opposed to using someone elses .  First I had a modified Excaliber but had an aerospace problem so I could not go into a hot zone .  Then I modifed an Overlord and changed one bay ; so it had 24 mechs a platoon of battle armor 20 light vehicles 1 heavy vehicle and Cargo and kept the 6 Aerospace fighters . I changed the armor to Ferro- Aluminum so it had a Threashold of at least 20 in every location . I kept the weapon suite for the new version Overlord to be the same so from casual looking it looked stock . I did alter a Fortress once but as Overlords were much more availbale I chose to give the Fortress to the Trainning Cadre for easy contracts ; it too had an lack of Aerospace fighter problem . If you change your drop ship and fighter armor to ferro aluminum you can increase the threashold for crit number. This means that your aerospace assets cost a very much to repair but increases your chances of landing and leaving .

[Archangel]

Plus, I could not find a dedicated IS company sized armored vehicle hauler for the 3050 time period.

 ???  The obsolete version of Gazelle Class DropShip has 15 heavy vehicle bays (and is one of the easiest DropShips to obtain).  While the upgraded version of the Gazelle wasn't available until 3055, it has 12 heavy and 3 light vehicle bays.  The Hannibal, which also wasn't available until 3055, has 12 heavy vehicle bays and is also capable of carrying 4 platoons of infantry.

[Go For The Throat]

While I did not think of just carrying them as cargo, that will work for now. The Mercs are currently on a Garrison (training) mission to earn some cash, but I will have to think of something for the future. They are supposed to be a raiding/striker force consisting of five 'Mechs, three ASFs, six Vehicles (all light), two Battle Armor Squads, four Conventional Infantry Squads, and two Support Vehicles (one heavy, one light). So it looks like a Seeker is my best bet with that, assuming of course that they do not get any bigger.

The other unit I have, for the upcoming campaign, is a Blakist Level III. My thoughts immediately went to the Assault Triumph to maintain faction purity, but the load-out made no sense. The reason I say that is because after looking at Blake Documents, of the 52 Divisions in the book, only 28 have listed compositions. Assuming they still use the composition table from pg. 9 of the ComStar:FM, a full 17 of those Level IVs do not even have enough Vehicles in their TO&E to completely fill the vehicle bay of this Level III transport. Why would such an offensively natured faction create such an offensively natured DS, that seemingly only carries defensive formations?

[beachhead1985]

While I did not think of just carrying them as cargo, that will work for now. The Mercs are currently on a Garrison (training) mission to earn some cash, but I will have to think of something for the future. They are supposed to be a raiding/striker force consisting of five 'Mechs, three ASFs, six Vehicles (all light), two Battle Armor Squads, four Conventional Infantry Squads, and two Support Vehicles (one heavy, one light). So it looks like a Seeker is my best bet with that, assuming of course that they do not get any bigger.

The other unit I have, for the upcoming campaign, is a Blakist Level III. My thoughts immediately went to the Assault Triumph to maintain faction purity, but the load-out made no sense. The reason I say that is because after looking at Blake Documents, of the 52 Divisions in the book, only 28 have listed compositions. Assuming they still use the composition table from pg. 9 of the ComStar:FM, a full 17 of those Level IVs do not even have enough Vehicles in their TO&E to completely fill the vehicle bay of this Level III transport. Why would such an offensively natured faction create such an offensively natured DS, that seemingly only carries defensive formations?

Not sure I follow? You can still attack people with vehicles. But yes; the WOBM does look like a self-inflicted headache factory as far as DS go.

[Colt Ward]

Its firepower/flexibility per trooper . . . mechs, BA and ASF all have a higher ratio than vehicles.  Its about raw numbers of bodies that you have available.  Mechs vs Vehs & BA vs Inf . . . WoB is supposed to field more of the former because of what they bring over the latter.

[Istal_Devalis]

Personally, I'm waiting for someone to make a heavier version of the Aurora. Modular bays are a pretty big strategic advantage, even if that's just an informed ability.

[mdauben]

???  The obsolete version of Gazelle Class DropShip has 15 heavy vehicle bays (and is one of the easiest DropShips to obtain).  While the upgraded version of the Gazelle wasn't available until 3055, it has 12 heavy and 3 light vehicle bays.  The Hannibal, which also wasn't available until 3055, has 12 heavy vehicle bays and is also capable of carrying 4 platoons of infantry.

Dang!  Not sure how I missed that one.  I'll have to pull my old copy of TRO:3057 out when I get home tonight and take a look at the write up. 

Thanks!   :)

[Go For The Throat]

Not sure I follow? You can still attack people with vehicles. But yes; the WOBM does look like a self-inflicted headache factory as far as DS go.

Vehicles can most definitely be used in an attack, but when Blake Documents says on pg.88 that its Protectorate Militia are "defensive", "planet-bound", "light on 'Mechs", and "are in ample supply of more conventional forces". It leads me to believe that WoB Militia, and especially Shadow Divisions are more 'Mech heavy, therefore making the Assault Triumphs six 'Mech, but 24 Vehicle Bays seem like they should be switched.

I will make due in the mean time, but is just seems to me that there should be more options available for DropShips. Whether this comes in the form of more designs, or more flexibility with the current ones does not matter to me.

[beachhead1985]

Actually, I'd go so far as to make it harder when role-playing mods, as in mechs and tanks and such, to modify smaller drop ships and easier to work on bigger ones, just because there is more *space* to work with. The example above of the Modified Mules is perfect!

[Col Toda]

The only Drop Ship that is Stock and ,Carries everything is the Conquistador  . Way too much . The three Aerospace Fighters rules out a modified Union . So the next drop ship up is the Union C and modie the bay space . For my unit I chose the Overlord drop ship new version as I had to do the least to it : kept bays 1 and 3 the same altered bay 2 for what I needed and replaced the armor with Frrro Aluminum  to increase the critical threshold to st least 20 . I ruled.out the Conquistador because it too hard to get ,  Put too many units in one drop ship , was not a Spheriod so it required more landing and tske of  space .  The best choice I think is a Modified Overlord and grow into it .

[Go For The Throat]

Actually, I'd go so far as to make it harder when role-playing mods, as in mechs and tanks and such, to modify smaller drop ships and easier to work on bigger ones, just because there is more *space* to work with. The example above of the Modified Mules is perfect!

I would think that smaller ships would be easier to modify because there is less equipment to work around. Especially when you look at the two that are fluffed as being easy to change the Aurora, and Seeker. Whatever works for your game though.

Personally, I'm waiting for someone to make a heavier version of the Aurora. Modular bays are a pretty big strategic advantage, even if that's just an informed ability.

Seconded, as long as it is faster.

The only Drop Ship that is Stock and ,Carries everything is the Conquistador  . Way too much . The three Aerospace Fighters rules out a modified Union . So the next drop ship up is the Union C and modie the bay space . For my unit I chose the Overlord drop ship new version as I had to do the least to it : kept bays 1 and 3 the same altered bay 2 for what I needed and replaced the armor with Frrro Aluminum  to increase the critical threshold to st least 20 . I ruled.out the Conquistador because it too hard to get ,  Put too many units in one drop ship , was not a Spheriod so it required more landing and tske of  space .  The best choice I think is a Modified Overlord and grow into it .

Yeah, after looking at it, it is a bit much, but the Conquistador's layout is exactly what I am looking for, I just wish there was a smaller version. I do not think a Union is out of the question. If I am already in the process of modifying it, what is to keep me from just adding another Aero bay? I also prefer Spheroid DropShips for that very reason, but I am not opposed to using an Aerodyne one if it is a better fit. My only hesitancy against using an Overlord is cost of operation. While it could be grown into, and provide some nice advantages in the interim, I think it is just a bit to much ship for a reinforced Company. Once the unit is able to expand beyond its current size, I think it would be a perfect fit. 

[Istal_Devalis]

Again, keep in mind that in something like 99% of the time, this stuff is all transferred as cargo. You only need dedicated bays if you intend to go in hot. Like, 'will be opening fire as soon as we touch down' hot.

[beachhead1985]

Again, keep in mind that in something like 99% of the time, this stuff is all transferred as cargo. You only need dedicated bays if you intend to go in hot. Like, 'will be opening fire as soon as we touch down' hot.

But you need to be able to do that, yes?

[cavingjan]

Not really. You need some of your force to have that capability but not all of it. What that mix is is another story. If you are heading to a garrison duty, it can almost all be as cargo. Make some available for the flashy rapid unload when you arrive on station but you will be able to transport more as cargo.

[Go For The Throat]

But you need to be able to do that, yes?

Useful, yes. A necessity, no. It would make it untenable should you be forced to retreat, but if you land far enough away unloading as cargo should be no problem. Besides, ground vehicles, and Infantry should not have that big of an issue being unloaded as cargo, and depending on what you have, it could be their time to shine.

[Archangel]

Useful, yes. A necessity, no. It would make it untenable should you be forced to retreat, but if you land far enough away unloading as cargo should be no problem. Besides, ground vehicles, and Infantry should not have that big of an issue being unloaded as cargo, and depending on what you have, it could be their time to shine.

While infantry (carried in cargo boys modified into quarters) can just walk off, their gear isn't readily available for use but stowed as secured cargo like checked luggage for airplane passengers compared to infantry in infantry bays where their gear is more available like carry-on luggage.  Not to mention that

Unloading vehicles from cargo bays is more problematic.  First only the crew of the DropShip can unload them and there is a maximum number of crewman who can be involved in unloading at any one time significantly increasing the time until the entire unit is ready for combat.  Second, on DropShips with small crews this can leave the DropShip extremely vulnerable to enemy attack.  Third, after being unloaded the vehicles are not ready for immediate combat.  Technicians need to prep them for combat.  The time required ranges from 2 minutes, or 12 turns, if two entire technical teams (one tech and six astechs each) are working on one unit AND if one of the technical teams is permanently assigned to the unit to 57 minutes, or 342 turns, if only a single astech is prepping the unit.

[Go For The Throat]

While infantry (carried in cargo boys modified into quarters) can just walk off, their gear isn't readily available for use but stowed as secured cargo like checked luggage for airplane passengers compared to infantry in infantry bays where their gear is more available like carry-on luggage.  Not to mention that

Unloading vehicles from cargo bays is more problematic.  First only the crew of the DropShip can unload them and there is a maximum number of crewman who can be involved in unloading at any one time significantly increasing the time until the entire unit is ready for combat.  Second, on DropShips with small crews this can leave the DropShip extremely vulnerable to enemy attack.  Third, after being unloaded the vehicles are not ready for immediate combat.  Technicians need to prep them for combat.  The time required ranges from 2 minutes, or 12 turns, if two entire technical teams (one tech and six astechs each) are working on one unit AND if one of the technical teams is permanently assigned to the unit to 57 minutes, or 342 turns, if only a single astech is prepping the unit.

Am I missing something, where are you getting all this from? Why would my infantry not have their gear with them in preparation for the drop, and be ready to go immediately? Would a cargo bay not have a ramp leading into it to ease loading and unloading? If so, why could vehicles not use it to drive into, and out of? I can understand the issue of time in regard to 'Mechs (because from my understanding, they must be transported as prone due to lack of gantries to hold them upright), and flying Vehicles (because a helicopter/VTOL does not take off from inside a hanger, it must move out of the enclosed area first), but the rest makes no sense. Should I not just be able to use the Cargo Carrier rules for loading, and unloading from pg. 261 of TW?

Also, since larger and/or heavier items are often transported as cargo (such as 'Mechs) that I would imagine are beyond the scope of the attendant bay personnel to lift, even with the assistance of exoskeletons, should cargo bays aboard DropShips be assumed to have lift hoists?

[Archangel]

Am I missing something, where are you getting all this from?

From Strategic Operations pages 43-44.

Why would my infantry not have their gear with them in preparation for the drop, and be ready to go immediately?

It depends on whether their living accommodations are configured as the more comfortable steerage quarters (simply living quarters) or the miserable infantry bays (barracks with some room for storing equipment).  If you have neither, well, lets just say that you had better be ready for a mutiny.

"Infantry units are treated as cargo of mass equal to an appropriate infantry compartment (see p. 239, TM) because, while the soldiers can walk off a ship quickly, unloading their gear from a cargo bay is a more tedious process than unloading from a real infantry bay or compartment."  (SO, p.43)

Would a cargo bay not have a ramp leading into it to ease loading and unloading? If so, why could vehicles not use it to drive into, and out of? I can understand the issue of time in regard to 'Mechs (because from my understanding, they must be transported as prone due to lack of gantries to hold them upright), and flying Vehicles (because a helicopter/VTOL does not take off from inside a hanger, it must move out of the enclosed area first), but the rest makes no sense. Should I not just be able to use the Cargo Carrier rules for loading, and unloading from pg. 261 of TW?

Units transported as cargo can't simply drive off and immediately enter combat like those transported in appropriate bays.  Besides being secured for the trip to prevent movement of the units, their turrets, weapons, electronics, etc are also secured to prevent damage to the unit or the DropShip carrying it.  After all it would probably not be a good thing if a PPC accidentally discharged in the cargo during reentry.   ;)

Not to mention that unlike appropriate transport bays, technicians/mechanics are unable to gain access to the unit and get it ready for combat.  All the maintenance, loading of ammunition and other tasks done in transport bays needed to make a unit ready for combat have to wait until after the unit is unloaded when it is transported as cargo.  See the rules regarding "Units and Personnel in Cargo Bays" in SO, p.43-44.

Also, since larger and/or heavier items are often transported as cargo (such as 'Mechs) that I would imagine are beyond the scope of the attendant bay personnel to lift, even with the assistance of exoskeletons, should cargo bays aboard DropShips be assumed to have lift hoists?

Cargo bays don't get any bay personnel specifically assigned to load/unload cargo (neither of the two pure cargo carriers - the Buccaneer and the Mule - have any bay personnel).  Its the crew that does the loading/unloading and, if available, with the assistance of spaceport ground crews.  As far as lift hoists are concerned, yes they do, but those lift hoists are designed for being able to handle large amounts of weight not speed.  Even with the assistance of lift hoists there is only so fast a limited number of crew can load/unload a DropShip especially when handling non-standard cargo (cargo not in cargo containers or pallets).

[Colt Ward]

Honestly, the second to last part is where some of it breaks down with what we know of internal volume for dropships when it comes to vehicles.  With that said, I have never dealt with shipped vehicles beyond what I saw on the Iwo Jima which is a parallel to the dropship.  Its also why we have ROROs to move armored divisions.  I think some work could be done but not a full up . . . IMO the biggest thing is, do you store the ammo actually in the vehicle?

Securing a vehicle on a dropship that is not in a bay . . . look at how they are chained down for railhead, airhead or seaport.



Sort of to give you an idea, you cannot see the chains but they will be there and tie-downs are built into the frame of mechanized equipment . . . probably since it was invented.  You can see that the wheels of that gun are framed in with timbers and the suspension is supported by the same which prevents breakage if something goes beyond spec.  I do not know enough about that gun to know if it is in battery or not.





From the above pictures you can see the Abrams chained down for rail transport.  I count at least 10 chains on the front end which means about the same on the back end.  I can not tell if the tracks are blocked, but I have seen other tracked vehicles blocked.  The tanks are ALSO in the transport position which means the gun is pointing aft, likely locked in that position.  I think I remember seeing other tanks with the guns chained in such a position.  Following is a shot of one loading, which is something occasionally practiced . . . my old base had a pair of wireframes at the edge of the motorpools in the training areas to practice loading aircraft with vehicles.  Thus not damaging aircraft.



Basically . . . I am not saying it can not be done, but I think their could be consequences rushing the unloading of armored vehicles, like your techs trying to rush repairs.  I also think you might have a higher maintenance cost post-battle with parts more heavily damaged.  As stated the vehicles would not be fully combat ready either . . . not a full fuel load (I think we kept under a quarter waiting for railhead), and ammo would be a question mark.  Which gives the advantage to fusion powered vehicles using energy weapons.

Infantry . . . well they could go right into combat as they will generally load where they can get their weapons.  Even if they are not sleeping with personal weapons (rifles/carbines), then a armory would be designated and the racked/caged weapons would be issued before landing.  Troops will have a rucksack but not the two duffels of snivel gear or the section/detachment equipment.  Heavy weapons may or may not be issued depending on type.  So they could immediately go into a defensive posture around the dropship with say a combat load of fire but for everything to be online and the unit have its full capabilities?  No

[Go For The Throat]

From Strategic Operations pages 43-44.

Thank you for that, it is very helpful.

It depends on whether their living accommodations are configured as the more comfortable steerage quarters (simply living quarters) or the miserable infantry bays (barracks with some room for storing equipment).  If you have neither, well, lets just say that you had better be ready for a mutiny.

"Infantry units are treated as cargo of mass equal to an appropriate infantry compartment (see p. 239, TM) because, while the soldiers can walk off a ship quickly, unloading their gear from a cargo bay is a more tedious process than unloading from a real infantry bay or compartment."  (SO, p.43)

Per pg. 44, it does say that any type of Conventional Foot Infantry are ready to deploy when finished offloading.

Units transported as cargo can't simply drive off and immediately enter combat like those transported in appropriate bays.  Besides being secured for the trip to prevent movement of the units, their turrets, weapons, electronics, etc are also secured to prevent damage to the unit or the DropShip carrying it.  After all it would probably not be a good thing if a PPC accidentally discharged in the cargo during reentry.   ;)

Not to mention that unlike appropriate transport bays, technicians/mechanics are unable to gain access to the unit and get it ready for combat.  All the maintenance, loading of ammunition and other tasks done in transport bays needed to make a unit ready for combat have to wait until after the unit is unloaded when it is transported as cargo.  See the rules regarding "Units and Personnel in Cargo Bays" in SO, p.43-44.

Wow, it takes a long time! Perhaps carrying a unit as cargo is not such a good idea.  A 30 ton vehicle carried as cargo would take 12.5 minutes (75 turns) to load/unload based on 0.2 (for humans) x 1.2 (DropShip's Lift Hoist) x 5 (for being "containerized") x 2 (because the rate is doubled for being a Vehicle), resulting in 2.4 tons/minute. Would the modifiers stack? I.E.: if I had Exoskeletons with Cargo Manipulators, and was using the Dropship's Lift Hoist, would I be moving 14.4, or 12 tons/minute?

Cargo bays don't get any bay personnel specifically assigned to load/unload cargo (neither of the two pure cargo carriers - the Buccaneer and the Mule - have any bay personnel).  Its the crew that does the loading/unloading and, if available, with the assistance of spaceport ground crews.  As far as lift hoists are concerned, yes they do, but those lift hoists are designed for being able to handle large amounts of weight not speed.  Even with the assistance of lift hoists there is only so fast a limited number of crew can load/unload a DropShip especially when handling non-standard cargo (cargo not in cargo containers or pallets).

The book says that those people should be drawn from the carrying vehicles crew, but they do not have to be. Part of the reason why most of the units I design have infantry. That, and base/LZ security.

[Istal_Devalis]

You'd usually have more then just the dropship's crew to help you offload. Dropships tend to land in designated areas, either 'ports' or in staging areas. The bottleneck's going to be the number of doors available to offload.

[guardiandashi]

You'd usually have more then just the dropship's crew to help you offload. Dropships tend to land in designated areas, either 'ports' or in staging areas. The bottleneck's going to be the number of doors available to offload.

agree which is why when I was designing a dropship for a house called a RDDS (Rapid Deployment Dropship it was an aerodyne design but had a "mirrored" configuration.
it had its cargo layout mirrored between the left and right sides of the craft.

on the lower cargo decks there was a vehicle bay in the center of the ship, with Large cargo doors (on each side into the main bays (mostly for atmosphere containment purposes) on each side was a bay for mechs with large loading ramps in the front and sides of the bay.

above the mech bays were the "wings" of the dropship, with the fighter bays above that, and also above the mech bays.
in the center above the vehicle bay, and between the fighter bays were the power armor bays, and also most of the crew quarters. 

when I was laying out the roughed out and mocked up deck/floor plans it made sense to me because each "bay" had "storage" areas and separate "traffic" areas to facilitate rapid unloading and deployment, like there were at least 3 access doors into each mech bay, that were wide enough for 2 mechs to walk through side by side.  the fighter bays had a launch and a separate recovery door.  etc.

[Col Toda]

It is way past time for a new drop ship with modular bay space .  I thought the Jihad was the best place to introduce something like that as it was when everyone started doing combined arms .  The Conquistador just has everything and does not count .  What I want to see is a keel out designs with  say  5,000 tons  of reconfigurable bays space with 2 doors ; 10,000 tons if reconfigurable bay space with 3 doors  and 20,000 tons of reconfigurable bay space with 4 doors .  I like this Idea just like an omni mech except the pod space are not the weapon hard points but the contents of the bay space . Any manufacturer could count on having a huge demand for these things .  I like certain things on a combat drop ship .  It has to have a minimum speed of 3 / 5 or better ( to give it minimum speed and still can afford to lose speed in combat ) ;  it has to have a minimum threshold of 20 in all locations ( this is doable now by modifying stock drop ships with ferro aluminum armor ) ; and to have marines and or battle armor . Everyone's needs are different having these 3 drop ships would be huge asset for anyone and have 3 sizes of them would mean anyone could buy what they required or a little better and not any more .  Lastly it would let someone rent or lease a drop ship to a customer's exact needs as opposed to making do .  It would relieve the need to use more drop ships than needed . It would lower the pressure for units to buy their own and leave a contract early . As my unit has already modified Overlords for my use the only big attraction for established units would be to move from Ferro Aluminum Armor to  Standard Armor and if the unit's needs change it would be nice to change the bays quickly as opposed to months long yard job .  In later years you are facing pocket warships as an obstical on a combat drop the stock ones everyone uses now would get quickly vaporized if the aerospace contingent could not destroy it before the drop ship is engaged . So I think any new design after the Jihad would have to be much better armed and armored from the get go . Perhaps  not as much as a pocket warship  but to a least have some teeth .

[cavingjan]

So you want more Auroras. It still takes a decent chunk of time to reconfigure but is doable.

[Archangel]

The problem with modular bays is that they weaken the armor layout and leave weak spots between the modular bay and the rest of the DropShip.  Not to mention that depending upon the size of the modular bay, whether the DropShip was a Spheroid or Aerodyne and where on the DropShip the bay is inserted, one might need shipyard level facilities to swap the modular bays.

Even the flexibility of the Aurora is limited by the availability of bays - whether the owner of the bay (whether corporate, government or individual) makes them available to you, whether the type you want is on-planet and whether there are any available on the planet in the first place.  After all its not like its something that every spaceport has laying around.

[ANS Kamas P81]

The problem with modular bays is that they weaken the armor layout and leave weak spots between the modular bay and the rest of the DropShip.

Which isn't an issue under any game rules that I'm aware of, and if an Omnimech can reconfigure itself and staple on massive weapons without breaking its armor coverage of those components than something the size of a DropShip can as well.

[Archangel]

Which isn't an issue under any game rules that I'm aware of, and if an Omnimech can reconfigure itself and staple on massive weapons without breaking its armor coverage of those components than something the size of a DropShip can as well.

There is a big difference between removing OmniPods from an OmniMech or an OmniFighter that can weigh up to what? 30 tons or even the modular bays of the Aurora that weigh a maximum of 150 tons to removing bays that weigh in the thousands as Col Toda was putting forth.  Not to mention that OmniMechs don't have pod doors to worry about.

[Jellico]

The Aurora, Leopard, Union, etc are all modular or have alternate variants because nothing else existed at the time. Remember the Aurora is a MWDA unit. Personally I find it deeply annoying because it is something of a magic capability. In the construction rules there is no difference. But for example, consider a 'Mech is 15m tall and a tank at most 5m. Totally different requirement for doors and deckspace. Let's not consider an ASF Bay's launch and recovery equipment.


Bay personnel are basically the 'Mech's pilot and tech. They are not specifically associated with the DropShip.


Put your 'Mechs in Unions. Put your infantry in a Monarch and your tanks and supplies in a Mule. Heck, put all your pilots in Monarch too until you need them. Your supply costs are a lot lower.
Really it comes down to how your landing zone is defended and how you intend to occupy it. A friendly space port means all the time and support in the world so you can go full cargo.
A hostile dropzone means combat drop and 'Mechs, BA and parachutists.

From then its how quickly do you want to deploy your tanks and how much repair capability do you need. It may be enough to get a company of tanks operational that afternoon and a week for the rest of the battalion. You don't need 36 repair bays if you aren't seeing combat. Where are your troops going to sleep? Stuff like that.

[Istal_Devalis]

So you want more Auroras. It still takes a decent chunk of time to reconfigure but is doable.

Actually, I think we want BIGGER Auroras :)

The Aurora, Leopard, Union, etc are all modular or have alternate variants because nothing else existed at the time. Remember the Aurora is a MWDA unit. Personally I find it deeply annoying because it is something of a magic capability. In the construction rules there is no difference. But for example, consider a 'Mech is 15m tall and a tank at most 5m. Totally different requirement for doors and deckspace. Let's not consider an ASF Bay's launch and recovery equipment.

What does it being a MWDA unit have anything to do with it? It's no less magical then Omnimech technology to begin with, or even the Mercury's modular construction. It's more that no one figured out an efficient way to do so with Dropship bays until the Aurora showed up, and even then it's nowhere near as efficient. (Probably just the Easy to Repair or Modular Weapon quirk)

[serack]

look up cargo king , cargo master dropships

[Go For The Throat]

The Aurora, Leopard, Union, etc are all modular or have alternate variants because nothing else existed at the time. Remember the Aurora is a MWDA unit. Personally I find it deeply annoying because it is something of a magic capability. In the construction rules there is no difference. But for example, consider a 'Mech is 15m tall and a tank at most 5m. Totally different requirement for doors and deckspace. Let's not consider an ASF Bay's launch and recovery equipment.

The Aurora may have been introduced as a Dark Age unit, but it has an intro date of 3062. If you look at the Aurora, all of its bays appear to be external (house-sized) blocks that simply need a device capable of removing, and replacing them, as opposed to the normally unseen from the outside bays other DropShips have. Not really all that magical.

Hence why I think a 'Mech/ASF carrier would be the easiest to reconfigure, because they are the biggest (standard) bays, and other types of bays could be more easily fit in the space left by their removal.

Actually, I think we want BIGGER Auroras :)

Faster too.

look up cargo king , cargo master dropships

Already done that, and they are listed as extinct during the Era, according to the MUL.

[Go For The Throat]

While I can understand the time required to unload cargo, I still do not quite get the preparation time. What is it about transporting something as cargo that basically requires it to be mothballed?

[guardiandashi]

While I can understand the time required to unload cargo, I still do not quite get the preparation time. What is it about transporting something as cargo that basically requires it to be mothballed?

penalty nerfing hauling lots of stuff as cargo to save mass

look at it this way, if you load a battlemech into a bay, it technically weighs 150tons regardless of weather its a 20ton (or smaller) mech or a 100 ton assault unit, if you load them as cargo however... they weigh what they weigh so that group of 5 locusts packed into cargo only take up 100 tons of cargo space vs 750 tons of mech bays

[ANS Kamas P81]

While I can understand the time required to unload cargo, I still do not quite get the preparation time. What is it about transporting something as cargo that basically requires it to be mothballed?

Well, ask any astronaut, space launches are violent things.  Tends to shake things up kinda roughly, and subject them to a lot more stress than they're used to.  Even in smooth flight, consider that your average BattleMech or tank is designed to take 1g of acceleration straight down, and then you start accelerating in different directions, well...it's not built to go sideways so much.  Stuff comes loose.

Then you've got fluids, flammables, and other such things - who wants to risk something spilling or starting a fire, especially aboard a spaceship?

[Go For The Throat]

penalty nerfing hauling lots of stuff as cargo to save mass

look at it this way, if you load a battlemech into a bay, it technically weighs 150tons regardless of weather its a 20ton (or smaller) mech or a 100 ton assault unit, if you load them as cargo however... they weigh what they weigh so that group of 5 locusts packed into cargo only take up 100 tons of cargo space vs 750 tons of mech bays

A perfectly legitimate reason, but depending on what you have unloading the cargo, that time can potentially be enough of a deterrent.

Well, ask any astronaut, space launches are violent things.  Tends to shake things up kinda roughly, and subject them to a lot more stress than they're used to.  Even in smooth flight, consider that your average BattleMech or tank is designed to take 1g of acceleration straight down, and then you start accelerating in different directions, well...it's not built to go sideways so much.  Stuff comes loose.

Then you've got fluids, flammables, and other such things - who wants to risk something spilling or starting a fire, especially aboard a spaceship?

But how are the stresses on a vehicle in a Cargo Bay, any different than one in a designated bay?

[Colt Ward]

Firefighting equipment, extra bracing that is quickly removed, stored ammo able/easy to load before landing which means it was unloaded for lifting, fueling beyond 1/4 tank which is what I suggested they do for railhead/airhead/ports.

Lack of ANY flammable materials, or potentially flammable materials, in contact with the vehicle which means if a fire DID start you could get at it.

[Go For The Throat]

Though you do make some good points, in a Universe where Fusion Engines and Energy Weapons exist, ammunition and 1/4 fueling are not always a concern. Is a fire going to be any easier to deal with in the middle of a high-g burn towards a planet? The rules are the rules, and I will follow them, but there are instances where the only difference I see between a designated bay, and a Cargo Bay is that the crew, and tech(s) are berthed in the designated bay.

[Lorcan Nagle]

But how are the stresses on a vehicle in a Cargo Bay, any different than one in a designated bay?

A mech/vehicle bay is a cubicle with clamps and locks built in to secure a unit in place when it steps or drives in, and the facilities to release that unit and get it out of the ship in 30 seconds.  A cargo bay is an open space with some hooks and loops in the deck that you can attach chains and cables to.  And if there's someting at the back of it, then you need to move other stuff out of the way to get at it.

[Archangel]

Though you do make some good points, in a Universe where Fusion Engines and Energy Weapons exist, ammunition and 1/4 fueling are not always a concern. Is a fire going to be any easier to deal with in the middle of a high-g burn towards a planet? The rules are the rules, and I will follow them, but there are instances where the only difference I see between a designated bay, and a Cargo Bay is that the crew, and tech(s) are berthed in the designated bay.

The difference is pretty clear - a designated bay is like a full-service garage while a cargo bay is like an empty warehouse.  You can store a car in both but you need to bring all your equipment and tools to the warehouse if you want to conduct maintenance or repairs on your car.

[Colt Ward]

Ammunition is explosives either designed to punch a hole through armor, or send a LOT of fragments out in a pattern . . . punching a hole in your spaceship (multiple ones since you could set off a chain reaction) is generally considered a bad idea.  Sending out a cloud of fragments through the soft chewy inside of your spaceship is also a bad idea because it can cause damage to systems and equipment . . . like electrical wiring, O2 pipes and fuel lines for those giant rockets you ride up and down the gravity well.  Especially since a lot of cargo is stored on decks above/next to engineering spaces.  Sparking electricity, free pure O2 and venting fuel are also a bad idea by themselves since they cause fires.

Fire, either from ammunition explosions, propellant gushing flames or from something causing ICE engine vehicle tanks to catch . . . is a VERY bad thing in space since it consumes the same thing the biologicals on board does (besides that dying painfully thing in zero-g since you are not certain smoke KOs you).

If we have modern safety precautions of not loading a military vehicle with a full tank or live ammo on board a transport do you really think that would be thrown out the window?

Its like saying during the Star League little kids were encouraged to run with scissors, because technology advanced so far they could not possibly fall to stab themselves with the sharp end.  And I also refuse to believe those stupid plastic scissors that never work improve so much they take over.

[Go For The Throat]

A mech/vehicle bay is a cubicle with clamps and locks built in to secure a unit in place when it steps or drives in, and the facilities to release that unit and get it out of the ship in 30 seconds.  A cargo bay is an open space with some hooks and loops in the deck that you can attach chains and cables to.  And if there's someting at the back of it, then you need to move other stuff out of the way to get at it.

That explains the time it takes to unload, which I get, but that does nothing to explain why a unit must be mothballed to be transported as cargo. When I packed the truck the last time I moved, I did not have to do anything special to the items in the front of the truck, but all the stuff closest to the door has to be removed to get at the stuff furthest from it.

The difference is pretty clear - a designated bay is like a full-service garage while a cargo bay is like an empty warehouse.  You can store a car in both but you need to bring all your equipment and tools to the warehouse if you want to conduct maintenance or repairs on your car.

If a unit needs the repairs, having a designated garage/bay capable of performing those repairs makes sense. When a unit is simply being transported, what is the likelihood that it would need more than basic care? You have bigger problems if the units under your command are in such disrepair, that simply being transported damages them. Though, I do realize that accidents can happen while loading/unloading. Most routine maintenance should be easily handled by what techs can carry on their person. Of course there instances where a component, like a large weapon, engine, turret, ect... needs to be replaced, and I understand that a Cargo Bay does not have the necessary facilities. Transporting units as cargo directly into combat is its own can of worms, from unloading times alone. Unless the unit is damaged because the DropShip came under fire, or suffered a bad landing, the latter of which should damage most, if not all units aboard, the former potentially damaging all the units in that bay, and risking the loss of attendant personnel. So that begs the question, why do I even need full repair facilities aboard a non-combat transport?

Ammunition is explosives either designed to punch a hole through armor, or send a LOT of fragments out in a pattern . . . punching a hole in your spaceship (multiple ones since you could set off a chain reaction) is generally considered a bad idea.  Sending out a cloud of fragments through the soft chewy inside of your spaceship is also a bad idea because it can cause damage to systems and equipment . . . like electrical wiring, O2 pipes and fuel lines for those giant rockets you ride up and down the gravity well.  Especially since a lot of cargo is stored on decks above/next to engineering spaces.  Sparking electricity, free pure O2 and venting fuel are also a bad idea by themselves since they cause fires.

Fire, either from ammunition explosions, propellant gushing flames or from something causing ICE engine vehicle tanks to catch . . . is a VERY bad thing in space since it consumes the same thing the biologicals on board does (besides that dying painfully thing in zero-g since you are not certain smoke KOs you).

If we have modern safety precautions of not loading a military vehicle with a full tank or live ammo on board a transport do you really think that would be thrown out the window?

Its like saying during the Star League little kids were encouraged to run with scissors, because technology advanced so far they could not possibly fall to stab themselves with the sharp end.  And I also refuse to believe those stupid plastic scissors that never work improve so much they take over.

I get what you are saying, but I think you mistook my point. I am not saying that ammunition explosions are not dangerous, or fires are not bad, especially in the enclosed confines of a DropShip in space. Of course I would take actions to make sure such things were stored properly. I am saying that in a Command where only one unit does not have a Fusion Engine, and less than a quarter have ammunition based weapons, such things are not as large of a concern.

[Lorcan Nagle]

That explains the time it takes to unload, which I get, but that does nothing to explain why a unit must be mothballed to be transported as cargo. When I packed the truck the last time I moved, I did not have to do anything special to the items in the front of the truck, but all the stuff closest to the door has to be removed to get at the stuff furthest from it.

You're not mothballing it, you're making it safe.  It's going to take a lot of time and effort to make sure a multi-tonne object doesn't come loose in transit.  Even when the ship isn't under gravity, mechs and vehicles still have mass and if one gets loose, that's going to be a disaster.  A ruptured fuel line is a toxic hazzard.  An ammo explosion - or ammo going flying through the bay could lead to a hull breach.

[Go For The Throat]

Unloading vehicles from cargo bays is more problematic.  First only the crew of the DropShip can unload them and there is a maximum number of crewman who can be involved in unloading at any one time significantly increasing the time until the entire unit is ready for combat.  Second, on DropShips with small crews this can leave the DropShip extremely vulnerable to enemy attack.  Third, after being unloaded the vehicles are not ready for immediate combat.  Technicians need to prep them for combat.  The time required ranges from 2 minutes, or 12 turns, if two entire technical teams (one tech and six astechs each) are working on one unit AND if one of the technical teams is permanently assigned to the unit to 57 minutes, or 342 turns, if only a single astech is prepping the unit.

I was referring to this. I guess mothballing is a bit extreme of a term, but it seems a bit ridiculous to me that a Savannah Master, which the unit in question has, would still take two minutes to get ready, with 12 technicians working on it. That is provided one of the techs is the personal technician.

[Lorcan Nagle]

First the deck crew have to locate and get to the Savannah Master, then they need to remove all the equipment keeping it in place - be it cables, latches or whatnot, then they need to get it outside or to a position on the deck that they can power it up without a risk of FOD (I wouldn't want to power up a hovercraft in an enclosed space where there's lots of tools and random stuff lying around), and then complete checklists and prep it for operation.  2 minutes sounds pretty good, to be honest.

[mike19k]

I was referring to this. I guess mothballing is a bit extreme of a term, but it seems a bit ridiculous to me that a Savannah Master, which the unit in question has, would still take two minutes to get ready, with 12 technicians working on it. That is provided one of the techs is the personal technician.

I would have to agree, years ago I was attached to the equipment section of a Engineer unit and as I was not an engineer spent time doing odd jobs, some of them was being the co-driver on the M916 Transport that hauled the Dozer, with the driver (also drove the dozer) and myself it would take about five to six minutes to get it off loaded, and maybe ten to twelve to load it.

[Jellico]

What does it being a MWDA unit have anything to do with it? It's no less magical then Omnimech technology to begin with, or even the Mercury's modular construction. It's more that no one figured out an efficient way to do so with Dropship bays until the Aurora showed up, and even then it's nowhere near as efficient. (Probably just the Easy to Repair or Modular Weapon quirk)

The Aurora was the one and only DropShip of MWDA. As such it got saddled with being expected to do everything.
See the various fluff variants of the Leopard, Union, Overlord, and select other DropShips of the early period of BT as other examples of this.
And I agree that Omni technology was magic for a time, though it now has a cost. The Mercury was fluff for a long time though we now have quirks for it.


Man it is hard to find the insides of a listing RORO.

This ship is now doing

According to this link one of the diggers may have got loose and dug a hole in the side.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/11329343/Loose-JCB-dug-a-hole-in-Solent-grounded-ship.html

[Go For The Throat]

First the deck crew have to locate and get to the Savannah Master, then they need to remove all the equipment keeping it in place - be it cables, latches or whatnot, then they need to get it outside or to a position on the deck that they can power it up without a risk of FOD (I wouldn't want to power up a hovercraft in an enclosed space where there's lots of tools and random stuff lying around), and then complete checklists and prep it for operation.  2 minutes sounds pretty good, to be honest.

Let me come at this from a different angle. Is there anywhere, in any book, that says personnel cannot be in a Cargo Bay while the DropShip is in motion? If so, why? Just to clarify, I am not talking about when the ship is on a High-G burn, or is under attack, because everybody on board should be strapped into something. I am talking about a cargo transport, making a smooth 1G burn, delivering a Command to a world where there is no immediate danger. There has to be a way to gain access to the cargo bays from inside the ship, because having the door controls on the outside where they can be damaged by reentry, debris, weapons fire, ect... just seems silly. Why, at any time during transit that it is possible, can I not send a few techs into the cargo bay with gripper gear, and environmental suits to do basic prep work (since not all prep work requires the unit to be moved, or more equipment than a single person can carry), so the time it takes on ground is mitigated?

Though, to be honest, now that I think about it, if I have at least 12 techs to do prep work on the ground, and it is potentially taking more than two minutes to unload the next unit off the DropShip, I could just cycle through them one at a time.

I do think that there should be some sort of additional modifiers for prep time based on weight, and components (engine type, amount of ammunition). It just does not seem right that 12 techs can ready a Behemoth Heavy Tank, or a Savannah Master in the same time frame. How do 12 people even work on something so small at the same time?

[Colt Ward]

Nothing says you cannot change things at home . . . after all, all the rules are optional as the Catalyst Death Commandos will not break in your door and take away the minis.  Make it more complicated as you wish . . . I think a mech traveling as cargo should take longer than a tank, and a ICE powered tank will take longer than a fusion engine equipped tank.  Ammo vs energy armed equipment will also have a difference . . . you can get into as much detail as you want, most folks skip that calling it AccountantTech.

But so far no one has deleted my spreadsheets for my mercs doing things a bit differently.

[Istal_Devalis]

What we're really looking at is the sci fi equivalent of the difference between a Roll-On/Roll-Off cargo vehicle, and one that's Lift-On/Lift-Off. The RoRo ship is designed for speed of loading/unloading vehicles. They dedicate extra gear to keep things secure while maintaining a higher level of readiness. These are your vehicle bays. LoLo are your cargo bays. They're designed principally with space efficiency in mind. Things will be stripped and stowed to take up as little room as possible. Depending on ship layout, the cargo might actually be stacked on top of each other, even on a single deck.

Heck, depending on how long the trip is going to take, you might actually WANT to mothball your vehicles, as this will cut down on maintenance costs during transit. Transit times at a steady 1 g can take a while.

[Go For The Throat]

Nothing says you cannot change things at home . . . after all, all the rules are optional as the Catalyst Death Commandos will not break in your door and take away the minis.  Make it more complicated as you wish . . . I think a mech traveling as cargo should take longer than a tank, and a ICE powered tank will take longer than a fusion engine equipped tank.  Ammo vs energy armed equipment will also have a difference . . . you can get into as much detail as you want, most folks skip that calling it AccountantTech.

But so far no one has deleted my spreadsheets for my mercs doing things a bit differently.

One of the reasons I play the game, the ability to do things how you want at your table. I like to know the rules for when I play in official games though. I try to stay away from AccountantTech, but the more rules you add for flavor, the harder it is.

[Archangel]

One of the reasons I play the game, the ability to do things how you want at your table. I like to know the rules for when I play in official games though. I try to stay away from AccountantTech, but the more rules you add for flavor, the harder it is.

Which is why the Line Developers made a single rule instead of splitting it into multiple sub-rules to cover all the different possibilities that could decrease/increase the amount of time it requires to get a unit combat ready.  And yes the current rules don't cover every single possibility but they cover the widest selection possible without having to create numerous sub-rules.  BTW for someone who claims to try and stay away from AccountantTech, you are the one that seems to want the Line Developers to go into AccountantTech by requesting additional sub-rules.

With regards to the particular extreme example you keep referencing - the Savannah Master - what unit has two entire tech teams available to work on a single vehicle, if one has extra techs wouldn't they be working on the Behemoth Heavy Tank instead?

[Go For The Throat]

While I can see how it could be considered so, I do not consider all this discussion AccountTech, I consider it a logical progression of using rules outside Total Warfare. Like I said, it is harder to stay away from AccountTech the more you stray away from TW.

If I had all those techs, they would be working on whatever came out of the cargo bay first, and working on each unit one at a time to expedite their preparation.

[Lorcan Nagle]

It all depends, really.  If you're using the warchest campaign you don't need to track your DropShips at all, uness you intend to use them in a scenario.

[Istal_Devalis]

Could always house rule different unit bay sizes. Instead of having four generic light vehicle bays, you could have ten bays that can each hold a 20 ton vehicle (With Mech and aerospace bays adding another 50% on top of that). That's a lot of extra bookkeeping, though.

[Go For The Throat]

That is just to much. I stretch that rule already, and use excess tonnage in designated bags to store equipment. Like extra weapons, armor, ect... in a 'Mech/Vehicle/ASF bay, provided there is available tonnage to support the weight.

[Jimmyray73]

I've kinda run into a similar issue. I was going to recommend an Excalibur, but that seems like it might be overkill as well as being sort of rare. I wouldn't let the rarity thing stop you though, it could be a good roleplay opportunity. If the garrison unit needs to pick up a ride for their next contract then maybe they can find a way to capture the ship used by a group of raiders or pirates, or stumble across a lost/derelict ship that needs an overhaul to be spaceworthy again. A few examples I've thought up for our current campaign:

Trojan: A spheroid dropper that's kind of a Q-ship based on the civilian Danais class transport (which was in turn based on a de-militarized Union) that was used as a blockade runner in the Periphery. I figure they should be relatively common out there, and even the Danais not originally converted for blockade running would probably get armed in the "lawless expanse" beyond the frontier. While not specced for mech cubicles in any write-up I theorized that a crew of salvagers might rig some up to take along a security detachment.

Seeker: The "fluff" description states that the Seeker was easy to reconfigure from a vehicle carrier to haul a small mech force and possibly small craft or fighters. It's been in production for centuries, so one could be found relatively new or as an old rebuilt tramp, or even the "derelict" route.

Mule: I figure an old Mule is a great ship for pirates as it has enough cargo space to repurpose for a combat unit. No drop doors, but I figure pirates probably don't have a good supply of properly engineered drop cocoons anyway so just install cubicles and walk the mechs off the ramps. Seems like a good engineer could devise a way to section off some of the upper cargo space for a rudimentary launch bay or three for fighters as well, but recovery/landing ops might get tricky.

Union: If you're not running a full strength mech company sacrifice some mech cubicle tonnage to convert a cubicle and maybe a drop door to add an extra fighter bay and door. Same story for vehicle bays, and just drive 'em down the ramps. Common enough to find without too much hassle.

Lion: Mostly a Clan design  now since the ones that didn't leave with Kerensky succumbed to attrition, but a good candidate for the "rebuilding a derelict" plotline, fluffed as having three cargo bays that give you some room to work at adding fighter bays.

[Colt Ward]

See this is why I want to get Black Eagles and other old ones being produced somewhere . . .

[Jimmyray73]

Yeah, I like that design too...

[Colt Ward]

Also consider the Command Dictator, which IIRC is 24 mechs and 18 heavy vehicles.

On the other hand . . . I am not sure it cannot be done like the Small Craft bays . . . we know light vehicles can be put in heavy bays, just a tonnage waste.  Any reason vehicles cannot be secured in mech bays?

[beachhead1985]

Also consider the Command Dictator, which IIRC is 24 mechs and 18 heavy vehicles.

On the other hand . . . I am not sure it cannot be done like the Small Craft bays . . . we know light vehicles can be put in heavy bays, just a tonnage waste.  Any reason vehicles cannot be secured in mech bays?

IMO, that whole vehicle bay thing is just begging to be errata'd away.

[Archangel]

Also consider the Command Dictator, which IIRC is 24 mechs and 18 heavy vehicles.

On the other hand . . . I am not sure it cannot be done like the Small Craft bays . . . we know light vehicles can be put in heavy bays, just a tonnage waste.  Any reason vehicles cannot be secured in mech bays?

Because the rules say so?   ^-^

But seriously I can think of two reasons, 'Mech bays don't have the depth that vehicle bays do while vehicle bays don't have the height that 'Mech bays do and the layout of the anchor points in the Mech bay is not designed for vehicles (in a 'Mech bay the anchor points go up vertically to accommodate the 'Mech's height while in a vehicle bay they go lengthwise).  While one may not have an issue with a small vehicle like the Savannah Master, there are likely to be issue with larger (or longer) vehicles either being unable to fit in the 'Mech bay or be able to be properly secured for transport.

[Go For The Throat]

On the other hand . . . I am not sure it cannot be done like the Small Craft bays . . . we know light vehicles can be put in heavy bays, just a tonnage waste.  Any reason vehicles cannot be secured in mech bays?

It all depends on how you want it to work in your games. Bays consider mass, not volume. I do not think there are many MBTs out there that are bigger than stuff like a Karnov, Cobra, or Planetlifter, all of which could fit in a Light Vehicle Bay.

[MAD-4A]

One thing to remember is that the IS has gone through 3 centuries of civil war. Most DS/JS construction facilities were destroyed hundreds of years ago. Few "new" DS/JS were produced during the 31st century. If your running SL/!st SW then "modified" or custom DS/JS would be unheard of (but a lot more designs would be available & common). Anything after the 2nd SW (in the IS at-least) and they would be common place. Repair/Battle-damage, damage from accidents, Scavenging. When I ran my 1st MW campaign, The units command DS was an ancient Excalibur with un-repairable structural damage. It's Max Th was 3 and it could only handle 2/3 Max weight per cargo deck. you could have similar mods or perhaps an ancient Overlord which took major battle damage fallowed by yard scavenging leaving only 12-14 mech cocoons and the rest of the mech decks are open, equipped to carry vehicles or cargo etc.