Ornithopters — General Discussion

[Lycanphoenix]

My father is a big fan of Dune, which got me thinking about Ornithopters. For those not aware, an Ornithopter is an aircraft with moving wings, like a bird or an insect. And they do exist IRL!

I’m wondering if Ornithopters would be good in BattleTech. What exactly would they bring to the table? At the moment, I’m just looking for general ideas, rather than specific rules (though specific rules are always a bonus).

Some people on Discord are thinking that they’d be pretty much identical to VTOLs, just a different flavor, but I dunno. I think they need something to set them apart mechanically, but that’s just me.

What are your thoughts on Ornithopters? Would they make sense in the BattleTech universe?

[Charistoph]

They'd pretty much be VTOLs, but might have certain Design Quirks to represent their different motive system.

Other than that, I can't say there would be much different about them.

[idea weenie]

If the stress at the joints can be handled, they could be useful.  Here is a video of them taking off and flying, and here is a ~10 minute video showing them flying an Ornithopter (and meeting the local wildlife).

They would have VTOL movement when the wings are moving, and fixed-wing movement when the wings are stationary.  Switching from one mode to another is a minor effort, instead of the transformation needed by Land-Air-Mechs.

Moving around them when they are taking off is slightly safer, as instead of the round danger zone imposed by a helicopter's rotor, you only have the lateral regions where the wings are flapping up and down (though the wind currents will be nasty).


Potential Quirks:
Compact (their wings fold up so you can put two of them in a Vehicle Bay, if their total tonnage is equal or less than what the bay can handle)
VTOL (the wings are like a dragonfly)
Fixed-Wing (for straight flight)
Maintenance hog (keeping those joints lubricated and making sure there are no cracks)

[Lycanphoenix]

So, probably good for civilian craft?

[Daryk]

The benefits would be similar to a tilt-rotor VTOL, which really haven't been fleshed out either.  "Rotor Arrangement" is probably the quirk to go with.

[Charistoph]

They would have VTOL movement when the wings are moving, and fixed-wing movement when the wings are stationary.  Switching from one mode to another is a minor effort, instead of the transformation needed by Land-Air-Mechs.

That would actually be a Conventional Fighter with VTOL added, like a Planetlifter.

However, everything I've read about Dune's ornithopters make them feel more like a pure VTOL than a CF.  For the ones people have made from drones, though, you may be right they would be a CF w/ VTOL.

[Natasha Kerensky]

In a universe where electrically activated myomers have delivered motion in multi-ten ton robots for centuries, biomechanical wings should arguably have taken over rotary wings a long time ago.  Bonuses in MP, vertical flight, turning, control, etc. would depend a lot on the biological model.  A bumble bee and a dragonfly have very different flight characteristics, for example.  But imagining the advantages of a scaled-up dragonfly versus a real-world VTOL might help elucidate some rules.

[Lycanphoenix]

Heh. I guess I'll consider that an endorsement from the Wolf's Dragoons ^.^
Fun fact: Some aviation companies are also experimenting with ornithopter technology to try to improve aerodynamic efficiency.

I guess Ornithopters would use tweaked VTOL construction rules?

[Empyrus]

I'd just outright use VTOL rules for ornithopters. Tech-wise, between BT's advanced materials, power sources and myomer tech, ornithopters should be doable within the universe. But these same things mean you can probably make a conventional helo with roughly equal performance. Gain something, lose something. Not worth its own class of unit either way.

Co-axial rotor variant of "VTOL Rotor Arrangement" quirk could suit them, give them greater maneuverability. The drawback of rotor crit making piloting harder seems quite fitting as well.

EDIT when constructing "ornithopter" VTOLs, one may want to use jet booster. Dune notes jets being used by 'thopters quite often especially during take-offs. (Also i'd assume typical long distance cruise flight involves setting wings for optimal gliding and using jet to proper the 'thopter rather than flap the wings constantly, mainly for speed.)

[Lycanphoenix]

Should I group this thread with my Heavy Industry project, or leave it as its own thing?

[Daryk]

I recommend its own thing...  Another class of vehicle is a bit different than more industrial equipment...  :)

[Grand_dm]

My draft of them works as follows:

1. VTOL rules, no bigger than 5-tons.
2. Myomer is used in their flapping wings.
3. They ignore PSRs to turn.
4. They can only take one Rotor hit.
5. They are similar to an insect that hums softly from the jets running in their idle state.

[Daryk]

Not a bad idea, and I have to say I LOVE that new avatar... It's hilarious that the "ugly" is dressed as the "good"...  :D

[Gorgon]

An idle thought I had today: Ornithopter-style backpacks would look very cool for mechanized VTOL infantry, or even VTOL Battlearmor. Soldiers buzzing through the air with mechanical dragonfly wings would be great.

[Daryk]

Cool yes, but that's a LOT of signal for a single infantryman...  :-\

[Gorgon]

I'm sure it'll be fine. If soldiers carrying stuff like this around is considered viable, I can have my Dragonfly Soldiers (DragoonFly?) duke it out with Branth mounted infantry  :D

[Luciora]

Did someone say Dragonfly?

[Daryk]

AMAZING mod work, as always!  :o

[Lycanphoenix]

Eeek, this thread blew up with activity all of a sudden.

[Gorgon]

Did someone say Dragonfly?

That's one fine looking Dragonfly  :thumbsup:

Eeek, this thread blew up with activity all of a sudden.

Ornithopters are a cool mental image and it is feasible with BT's technology. But whom I'm telling that  ;D

[Daryk]

They're not just a mental image since the latest Dune movie... Villeneuve picked a fantastic representation!  :thumbsup:

[Retry]

Concur with quirks being the way to go to represent ornithopters.  Myomers would be mandatory to get the concept to work at all.

Whether the ornithopter motive system would have any significant advantages over VTOLs or conventional aircraft is another thing entirely.  Other than the handful of novelty Ornithopters to show off your ability to make them in the first place, there seems to be few theoretical advantages and plenty of problems (even when using Myomers), so you're probably just better off saving that myomer for more 'Mechs.

[Demiurge]

So, there's two ways to generate enough lift to keep an airplane in the air. You can move a lot of air slowly, or a little air really quickly. Or something in between, the point is, thrust is a product of mass flow rate and gas velocity.

If you do the math, it's a lot more energy intensive to produce a given amount of thrust with a low mass flow rate and high gas velocity because kinetic energy is a function of velocity squared.  So, we would expect to see more aircraft that have low thrust velocity where power is expensive.

See where I'm going with this?

It doesn't make sense that helicopters exist in Battletech, quite frankly, let alone ornithopters.  ASFs can VTOL with thrust vectoring and absurd TWRs, and they're much tougher than helos thanks to lacking vulnerable moving parts on the outside.

Ornithopters and helicopters would make sense for civilian cargo-hauling applications where the screech of super-heated hydrogen plasma exiting a nozzle at mach 5 may be objectionable, but let's be real, the fact that you can haul power armor in ASFs retroactively makes putting them in helicopters silly.

[Luciora]

The nice thing about Battletech is that there is a niche for everything.  Its not called Efficiencytech after all. 

[Charistoph]

It's because it's much CHEAPER to do VTOL with helicopters than with either ConvFighters or ASF, both in the basic system and in training.

[Daryk]

ASFs do VTOL with a MUCH higher piloting penalty than VTOLs.  If you have an incredibly skilled pilot, sure... ASFs are superior.  If instead you have a farmer cranked through a two-year training program, VTOLs are the safer bet...  ^-^

[Cannonshop]

ASFs do VTOL with a MUCH higher piloting penalty than VTOLs.  If you have an incredibly skilled pilot, sure... ASFs are superior.  If instead you have a farmer cranked through a two-year training program, VTOLs are the safer bet...  ^-^

'


also cheaper to maintain, cheaper to maintain proficiency, have a lower logistical footprint, are more resistant to the damage of indifferent maintenance, can be fixed with a can of spray-glue, two pop cans and some pop rivets...
'
the technique of "Self contained shot peening" was initially developed doing field repair of aircraft at forward bases.  "rotopeening' involves a flapper of tugsten bb's glued to fiberglass cloth or embedded in rope, mounted to an air or electric poered drill to beat the surface of the aluminium to harden it to a set value based on time.

[Lycanphoenix]

A small self-necro: Briefly mentioned on the Sarna forum, Ornithopters might be able to "swim" if correctly designed. VTOLs can't do that!

Ornithopters could also probably be designed to mimic certain megafauna on certain planets, for covert operations.

[Luciora]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riout_102T_Al%C3%A9rion

I'm reminded of this.