What mechs would be family heirlooms?

[SteelRaven]

Two things to consider:

1) In fiction, mechs are damn near indestructible.

2) On the table top, players pound mechs into oblivion

So allot of mech 'could' be inherited as long as the pilots are ready to break off from a fight vs pull a might python and attempt to kick his opponent to death after losing both limbs and all their weapons.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

we all can't be the george s patton of tabletop

you can simulate recon well enough by running scenarios or at minimum having objectives that incentivize taking smaller, faster units on maps big enough for their speed to matter. it's easy enough to force players to treat their machines cautiously, even with the ultra-abstracted chaos campaign rules. it's super easy to design your own scenarios.

  You don't have to be Patton. Making realistic scenarios require some knowledge of reality. I've run campaigns where I've taken hours to do the research and select the forces and print out all the necessary sheets, in order to challenge my players. Few people want to devote that much time but I highly recommend it, because designing scenarios makes for better players.

[massey]

  You don't have to be Patton. Making realistic scenarios require some knowledge of reality. I've run campaigns where I've taken hours to do the research and select the forces and print out all the necessary sheets, in order to challenge my players. Few people want to devote that much time but I highly recommend it, because designing scenarios makes for better players.

I remember what it was like to be 20 with no responsibilities.

[Daryk]

At this point, I'm waiting to be retired with no responsibilities...

[Sartris]

Yeah things are usually better when you can devote more time. You can still make scenarios 95% players will enjoy in a fraction of the time. I’d venture to say most people I’ve played with would be turned off by that level of depth. It’s not necessarily a skill most people want or want to be good at. Fun can still be had even if you’re a scrub

I remember what it was like to be 20 with no responsibilities.

Ha. I was busier in college than after. I basically gave up games of all stripes until 2005 when graduated.

[RifleMech]

The point is that it's canonically possible to refit a mech using limbs from a different mech, even if the donor doesn't match the tonnage of the base mech.  There's another example in Record Sheets: Unique Mechs- a Gunslinger that got refitted with the right arms from a pair of Zeuses, meaning that it's not only possible to refit a mech with arms from a different mech, it's also possible to stick a right arm onto a mech in place of a left arm.

I agree that there are canon units that were built out of others. There is a difference though between having a factory rebuild the internal structure and cobbling things together in a Mech Bay.

A production "FrankenMech" has an internal structure of the correct tonnage for its weight class. It can also mount the max armor in its class.
The weight of a true FrankenMech's internal structure depends entirely upon the weight of the donated structures.  A Wolverine arm structure weighs .5 tons. A Marauder arm weighs .75 tons. The difference in weight can mean the removal of items or armor. Also the amount of armor is dependent on that of the donor. A Marauder can carry more armor than a Wolverine.

Its also why you can't just stick a Wasp's leg onto a Scorpion without having a Matar moment.

  (snip)

  Properly used recon mechs have the highest ability to survive the many wars.

That's why most bug mechs aren't going to tangle with heaver opponents if they don't have to and then not any longer than they have to.

[Hellraiser]

By the time of the Clan Invasion, and beyond, family owned mechs are the minority.

That's a bit too much of a reversal I think.

10 Years of increased factory production allowed the Houses to expand their rosters by a few regiments each but they didn't double in size or anything.

There were still plenty of family mechs in service at the start of the clan invasion.

Now the invasion itself, and the next 20 years of civil war & jihad........  THAT might have reversed it because at that point nearly everything had been wrecked.

[SCC]

Sure. But Battletech's skirmish game nature doesn't reward recon, and scenarios that reward proper recon are few and far between. I'm in a GM's campaign right now where it could help, but my fellow player is more interested in giving the GM 'role-playing opportunities' than scouting, much to my frustration.

It goes beyond that, the Bug 'Mechs are poorly designed and poorly conceptualized. Their way too light to carry any worthwhile amount of guns or armor, never mind both, and the entire idea of a scout 'Mech is stupid, a major part of the role of a scout is not being seen, something a two story 'Mech is not very good at.

  I find set games boring. Playing to win without consequences is easy, especially after I figure out what I have to kill to score the most points. My group has run several campaigns that put all of the players' war gaming skills and doctrines to the test, including playing under enemy radio jamming of the entire battlefield, or as insurgents on a blockaded planet. I'll tell you, the set battle players never did well in the long campaigns, because they threw their units into the first battles and left it up to the dice to decide the outcome. I once captured one of the enemy upper level commanders and thought it would be better to release him, he was so incompetent.

we all can't be the george s patton of tabletop

you can simulate recon well enough by running scenarios or at minimum having objectives that incentivize taking smaller, faster units on maps big enough for their speed to matter. it's easy enough to force players to treat their machines cautiously, even with the ultra-abstracted chaos campaign rules. it's super easy to design your own scenarios.

Shouldn't be too hard for a GM.  Good recon work (from players or OpFor) results in either less or weaker enemy forces in future battles.  Failure to stop enemy recon results in more concentrated assaults or lack of reinforcements.  Failure in or not performing recon results in ambushes or desired target not found.

Double-blind helps, but the idea of using scouting forces in any sort of table top wargame in fundamentally flawed, because the mere fact that a scenario is being played tells the opposing player that you have forces in the field. In the RPG things are better, but things should simply be reduced to a few rolls and nothing more.

[Sartris]

i'd rather not play than play non computer-assisted double blind. the conceit of a recon scenario is that it's a scenario - something is going to happen.

the potentially boring recon more suited for fast hovers, vtols, or infantry has already been done and the PC's mission is "hey, there's stuff here. find out what." the objectives might include finding hidden units, triggering certain enemy elements to enter the field, scanning buildings, trying to locate an enemy commander, etc. the results then carry over to the next mission, which immediately follows the recon events. the scope and abstraction of the game itself make the missions themselves abstractions as well. i can usually get 8-12 turns into three hours depending on what's going on and that minute and a half to two minutes can't possibly be accurately representative of what would "actually" happens.

[SCC]

i'd rather not play than play non computer-assisted double blind. the conceit of a recon scenario is that it's a scenario - something is going to happen.

the potentially boring recon more suited for fast hovers, vtols, or infantry has already been done and the PC's mission is "hey, there's stuff here. find out what." the objectives might include finding hidden units, triggering certain enemy elements to enter the field, scanning buildings, trying to locate an enemy commander, etc. the results then carry over to the next mission, which immediately follows the recon events. the scope and abstraction of the game itself make the missions themselves abstractions as well. i can usually get 8-12 turns into three hours depending on what's going on and that minute and a half to two minutes can't possibly be accurately representative of what would "actually" happens.

Ah, well from my read of the situation is that Mohammed As`Zaman Bey wants to be able to play that part of finding that stuff to investigate, which I wouldn't consider scouting, reconnaissance in force, but not scouting.

[Ruger]

It goes beyond that, the Bug 'Mechs are poorly designed and poorly conceptualized. Their way too light to carry any worthwhile amount of guns or armor, never mind both, and the entire idea of a scout 'Mech is stupid, a major part of the role of a scout is not being seen, something a two story 'Mech is not very good at.
Double-blind helps, but the idea of using scouting forces in any sort of table top wargame in fundamentally flawed, because the mere fact that a scenario is being played tells the opposing player that you have forces in the field. In the RPG things are better, but things should simply be reduced to a few rolls and nothing more.

The role of the scout is to find and report back on things that the forces to which they are attached do not know the exact location or composition of at the time that they are scouting. Most scouts want to not be seen, something that is not always possible and sometimes not even desirable (if they are bait for a trap, for instance).

You tend to use lighter forces in this role because they are most often quick and mobile enough to get out of any traps your enemy has laid, or expendable enough that their loss is not crippling, or because they tend to be the forces that have the sensors and communication packages that allow them to do this job better than any other.

Ruger

[SCC]

Ruger, the problem is that a 'Mech is two stories tall and clearly a military asset, compare that to a pair of guys in a SUV, much less likely to be seen, and even if they are seen the other side might not realize that they've been spotted.

[Ruger]

Ruger, the problem is that a 'Mech is two stories tall and clearly a military asset, compare that to a pair of guys in a SUV, much less likely to be seen, and even if they are seen the other side might not realize that they've been spotted.

I don’t disagree with what you are saying, just putting forward a different take on things. Besides, how many of those pair of guys in an SUV have the sensors and comm gear of a ‘Mech? What about chances of survival when coming on enemy forces unexpectedly?

Edit: if this discussion continues, maybe it should be broken off to its own thread?

Ruger

[SCC]

Given how poorly sensors and comm gear is defined in BT, it's quite possible that they mount the same. As for an enemy attack, the role of scouts when that happens is to run, not engage the enemy. Even if for some you need the scouts to get into a fight, the Bugs are still too light, the US Army's M3 is about 30 tons, so that should set a minimum tonnage for scout 'Mechs.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

At this point, I'm waiting to be retired with no responsibilities...

  At 62, I'm good...but due for bypass surgery tomorrow, so I may be gone for a bit, unless I
 get my laptop working...

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

It goes beyond that, the Bug 'Mechs are poorly designed and poorly conceptualized. Their way too light to carry any worthwhile amount of guns or armor, never mind both, and the entire idea of a scout 'Mech is stupid, a major part of the role of a scout is not being seen, something a two story 'Mech is not very good at.

  Play a Clan unit, a 1,000 lb gorilla bumbling around the strategic map, and find the enemy without scouting elements. When you do, it will be on the enemy's terms. BT was conceptualized around having no infantry or vehicles -those were afterthoughts and if you have played long enough, the rules have finally caught up to the reality: Mechs no longer rule the battlefield. They are still powerful, but no longer all-powerful, as they once were.

Double-blind helps, but the idea of using scouting forces in any sort of table top wargame in fundamentally flawed, because the mere fact that a scenario is being played tells the opposing player that you have forces in the field. In the RPG things are better, but things should simply be reduced to a few rolls and nothing more.

  I've played out a recon scenario where the appearance of a recon lance just to locate and count the enemy's numbers sent the enemy commander into a panic. He thought he'd be pounded by artillery and dispersed his units, dismounted his infantry to dig in and prepared for a field battle that never happened... My recon lance observed the enemy for the two hours it took for them to realize that they weren't under attack and shadowed the unit until they reached the series of prepared ambushes in their path.
 
  The OPFOR commander had no clue that he was only encountering a recon lance, his briefing gave him an idea of the forces defending the planet and a town to secure. The GM made the scenario for the light lance members to practice, and participate in the merc contract, other than by making a few rolls and doling out experience at the end of the contract.
  None of the recon units fired a shot. They stayed well out of range and once the enemy was close enough for the Long Toms to reach them, the recon/scouts did what they did best; they stayed out of combat.

  Recon isn't just running around and looking for stuff. If you are ahead of the main body, you map terrain features, river crossings, etc. You locate and mark minefields and occasionally, you may encounter dug-in forces, which you also report. If a recon unit encounters enemy recon elements, their job may become screening: Prevent the enemy from locating, counting and reporting the main body. Usually, its a stand off, with the enemy recon backing off, but aggressive recon units may want to get past you and you may actually have to fight, which is rare, although mechs like the Hussar shine in this instance. Despite its fragility, its speed and offensive capabilities boost its ability to survive against mechs of similar weight...and this discussion is about what survives.


 

[Church14]

Any mech that lost the production factories before the year 3000 can be an heirloom mech.

So I’ll mention the one I think people are missing. You can correct me if I’m wrong on it.

The Catapult.

[massey]

Any mech can be an heirloom mech.  I'm defining that as a mech that gets passed down from generation to generation, securing your status as a mechwarrior.

Really common mechs have lots of spare parts, so they can be passed down successfully.
Really uncommon mechs are harder to find spares for, but there are also a lot fewer people looking, and you can often find things that will kinda sorta fit.
Big tough mechs can survive a lot of punishment, so they can get passed down.
Fast and fragile mechs avoid combat, so they can get passed down.
Laser-based mechs don't have a lot of ammo-bombs, so they are more likely to survive.
Ammo-based mechs will withdraw from combat earlier, so they are more likely to survive.

You can basically come up with any justification you want to explain why your family has got a particular mech.

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

You can basically come up with any justification you want to explain why your family has got a particular mech.

  Exactly. There can be any reasoning behind how a particular mech was preserved by a family. It could also be fresh off the assembly line and handed to a favorite nephew.

[Greatclub]

Can any mech be passed down? Yes, obviously, that's spelled out both in background and gameplay.

But a crusader is less likely to be passed down than a thunderbolt. More armour, better crit padding and better cooling in pretty much any band just up its chances of survival.

Stalkers are less likely to survive generations than Awesome. (Front) armour is comparable, but the ammo bombs would make the difference.

Griffin VS Wolverine, I'd expect the griffin to last longer; griffins are mid- to backliners that are notoriously hard to catch, especially in the succession war era. Wolverine have a mid-range gun and the same mobility, but are ultimately expected to get in peoples face.

[massey]

If it’s my family mech, the one that ensures I’ve got a place among the nobility?  You can bet I’m gonna fight with it differently.

That Crusader is gonna live as long as possible, because I’m firing those LRMs on 11s and 12s.  As soon as my torso armor gets breached, I withdraw.

[Greatclub]

If it’s my family mech, the one that ensures I’ve got a place among the nobility?  You can bet I’m gonna fight with it differently.

That Crusader is gonna live as long as possible, because I’m firing those LRMs on 11s and 12s.  As soon as my torso armor gets breached, I withdraw.

Enjoy your court martial for cowardice in the face of the enemy

[Elmoth]

Torso armor breached. Saving a useful asset for the House. I do not see him as specially coward given that he was there until his machine was in risk of being totally lost. Shoting on 11's might get him smacked for waste of ammo and low on spares priority.

[Greatclub]

There's also the matter of him frittering away his limited ammo on minimal-probability potshots. It is the combination that would do him in, IMHO

Although since everyone else is doing the same thing late 3rd war, maybe not.

[Sartris]

forced withdrawal is well past fluff - it's codified in the rules and hard-baked into the universe across the timeline

[dgorsman]

A thought occurs.  Without the benefits of CASE, dumping ammo after suffering heavy damage may have been a *lot* more prevalent during that era.  The only "torso bombs" would be the less frequent fluke shots. That itself leads to higher survival.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

In the timeperiod after the 2nd Succession War and before the 4th, it wasn't unusual for mechs to be carrying less than full ammo bins in the first place.

[Elmoth]

In the timeperiod after the 2nd Succession War and before the 4th, it wasn't unusual for mechs to be carrying less than full ammo bins in the first place.

Really? Source please. Ver interested!

[Mohammed As`Zaman Bey]

There's also the matter of him frittering away his limited ammo on minimal-probability potshots.

  I don't even waste rolls using energy weapons. That's for the Green troops...and if any of my command has a torso breach, I order them to withdraw.

[massey]

Enjoy your court martial for cowardice in the face of the enemy

That doesn't happen.  Why, I'm the son of Baron von Humperdink!  And by the Treaty of 2642 of Mudball VI, I've got every right to ensure the status of my noble house.  That means I can withdraw from battle.

For the 3rd SW, nobody has a truly modern military.  Mechwarriors really are knights, with fiefdoms and allegiances and all that goes with it.  Half your regiment is probably made up of minor nobles like me, and if you start court martialing people who protect their mech, every one of those guys is gonna turn on you.  It's kinda like a labor union, and everybody is going to go on strike.

Now, somewhere in there will develop an accepted code of conduct.  Some guys really are cowards, and if I'm risking my mech I don't want to take up for a guy who ditches his responsibilities and puts me at more risk.  But I'm also not gonna be cool with an idiot commander who puts everybody else's family status at risk just because he wants to be a big shot.  I don't care if you're the Duke's nephew and he put you in charge of this mech company, if you give stupid orders we're not gonna follow them.

A guy who dumps his Crusader's ammo as soon as that Locust comes running towards him is going to raise eyebrows.  Why is he doing that?  But taking LRM shots on 9s and 10s is probably standard operating procedure for a Crusader pilot.  Everybody knows he's got a torso bomb and he wants those bins empty before he takes any real damage.  Nobody is going to blame him for that.