How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?

[Neufeld]

So, for those second-line non-omni mechs, what do you feel about using an XL-engine for them?
Can you justify the cost of an XL-engine or should those failures be happy to get a machine with a standard engine?
Overall what role do you envision for Clan non-omnis with XL-engines?

[Diablo48]

I would stick with an XLE most of the time because it dramatically improves performance, and more often than not you wind up using those "second-line" 'Mechs in front-line formations or getting them caught in heavy fighting on the defensive, so I find the extra cost of the engines to be acceptable.  Now, there are cases where a SFE is a good idea like the SFE Dire Wolf competitor I made that can actually meet that high bar thanks to FL armor.

[maddyfish]

I think in the modern era the distinction between front line and second line units has been blurred to some extent. Omni, being harder to construct, now that many Clans are in the IS, make second line units more important and more vital in front line actions. Really the only significant difference is omni or non omni, the unit will likely see heavy combat either way.

[Pa Weasley]

A good mech is a good mech, omni or not. If an XL engine is what helps make it so, I'm all for it. I'm just happy to see that the IS Clans at least are starting to field standard mechs in their front line forces. Admittedly it's partly due the desperate need to supply forces, but the Clans have built some fantastic "second line" mechs over the years. An XL engine standard mech is still cheaper and easier to get off the drawing board and into production than an XL omni.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

I prefer my second-liners to use standard engines. As was stated earlier, Second-line are mainly defensive formations IMO. Because of that, speed is less important. They should not have to move far to get to where they need to be. With that in mind they can afford to go slower, thus using smaller engines and making up the tonnage of the XL with that. They will either outlast their opponents by being a Zombie, or they will stay standing long enough for the Front-line forces to arrive and save the day.

[IndyRI]

I voted SFE but so long as it's a clan machine I can be comfortable either way. Cost is less a concern for me than is survivability and utlity. XLE allows for a faster machine or one with more weapons, but becomes dangerously hot in the case of a torso loss, and will typically go down slightly quicker. Overall, I like the heartier SFE, but Clan XLs are not nearly the liability that you find with the IS version. It's a simple matter of preference.

[Fatebringer]

It's hard to make a good machine cheap. XL Engines are the biggest contributor to raised costs. If you need it for the second line, it's the first thing I trim, either for a long range or short range package, the first thing I give up is some speed so I can keep the weapons packages up.

Increase your range with ER Large Lasers, and you'll get a decent fire support mech, or if it's supposed to be a city fighter, even better, the best thing about not having an XL engine is survivability, you can load it up with Heavy Lasers and a Tarcomp.

[Stormfury]

I think in the modern era the distinction between front line and second line units has been blurred to some extent. Omni, being harder to construct, now that many Clans are in the IS, make second line units more important and more vital in front line actions. Really the only significant difference is omni or non omni, the unit will likely see heavy combat either way.

Ditto. When chosing a force, I'm more concerned with flavour and then effectiveness. If it's in character and the machine is not a total liability (hello, Nightwolf)* I'm fine either way.

If I'm designing a machine or refit from the ground up, it depends on the era and role. If something is older, it is more likely to have a SFE. If it is intended to be cheap, likewise.

*Mainly I'm annoyed they didn't just begin manufacture of the Highlander IIC or something. Or anything, really, other than that :P

[IndyRI]

^Can you explain to me how the Nightwolf is a liability? The Mech of the Week thread covered pretty well that while it's not the most efficient mech in the world, it's perfectly usable, and becoems downright dangerous against combined arms.

[Stormfury]

It's an expensive assault 'Mech that lacks the firepower to take on machines in its class. Moderate changes would make it substantially more dangerous, and allow it to still be a machine for all occasions.

Dual Artemised LRM-15s, paired Plasma Cannon, an ER PPC and an ER Medium Laser would improve its ranged firepower while increasing the anti-vehicle and anti-infantry weaponry it has. It could even have dual LPLs, ATM-6s and  a Plasma Cannon.

I know the idea was along the lines of a Clan-tech Albatross, but designing and manufacturing a brand-new 90 tonner that really lacks the hitting power to threaten anything in its own range really rankles. Desperation is all well and good, but it's not like they didn't have other options- like reviving the Highlander IIC.

[vidar]

Really the question is more for heavy and assault mechs.  I went neko in a dress, because for light and medium mech XL engines are becoming a necessity.  For Heavy and Assault class mech cost of an XL figures in more.

[Neufeld]

I went neko in a dress, because for light and medium mech XL engines are becoming a necessity.

For lights, maybe. However, for the medium range there are several decent choices with std FE and 6/9/6 movement.
 

[wantec]

For me it's more about the speed of the mech, if it moves 5/8+ then an XL engine is good, if not I tend to avoid them on Clan designs.

[IndyRI]

It's an expensive assault 'Mech that lacks the firepower to take on machines in its class. Moderate changes would make it substantially more dangerous, and allow it to still be a machine for all occasions.

I know the idea was along the lines of a Clan-tech Albatross, but designing and manufacturing a brand-new 90 tonner that really lacks the hitting power to threaten anything in its own range really rankles. Desperation is all well and good, but it's not like they didn't have other options- like reviving the Highlander IIC.

Well paired Plasma Cannons are almost always a bad idea. It's a great weapon to tack on as a secondary catch-all response to anything other than a cool-running mech, but the 15 heat cap and the fact that it's so darned effective at countering combined arms make pairing it up a waste of tonnage most of the time.

As for the baseline Night Wolf, it's a quick, jumping assault with a lot of armor and the ability to deal 79 damage and up to 15 heat in close ranges. At a distance it suffers, capable of hitting for only 36 damage, but the main method of doing so is TCd, even if that only brings it down to even money. Overall it's a great city mech. Capable of demolishing combined arms of all sorts, and strong enough up close to destroy even larger mechs. Hell, the Daishi Prime can only deal 9 more damage without going Ultra with the ACs, and even then, 98 damage and no heat versus 79 damage and up to 15 heat isn't that much of a difference considering the weight difference. The Night Wolf is a mobile, ECM toting, AMS sporting, death machine in a city. It's not that versatile, but used right it can kill.

[Diablo48]

Well paired Plasma Cannons are almost always a bad idea. It's a great weapon to tack on as a secondary catch-all response to anything other than a cool-running mech, but the 15 heat cap and the fact that it's so darned effective at countering combined arms make pairing it up a waste of tonnage most of the time.

Honestly, you really do need the pairing to be able to insure that you connect with at least 1, and you need 2 hits to have a chance at capping the heat buildup because 2D6 heat is average 7 max 12, so 2 average hits will not reach the cap at 14.  Because of this, one gun is just not enough to really scare people because there are good odds it will miss completely, and even if it does hit it will probably not cause enough heat buildup to be an immediately problematic so you can ignore it until it actually hits and deal with the spike after the fact.  If you want to really bother 'Mechs, you need to be able to scare them enough to keep them from using some of their weapons which the Night Wolf is simply not capable of.

[IndyRI]

Well there honestly aren't many mechs I would gladly take a hit for 7 heat on, even so. I udnerstand the utility, but that's 6 tons plus ammo for strictly heat-generating equipment. I love the PC backing up other weapons, but that's a little too much dedication to a specific utility that's not going to directly damage the opponent. I do understand that excessive heat essentially denies your opponent a portion of his arsenal, but 6 tons plus space for ammo and the HS to handle 14 heat is rather much for me.

[Diablo48]

Well there honestly aren't many mechs I would gladly take a hit for 7 heat on, even so. I udnerstand the utility, but that's 6 tons plus ammo for strictly heat-generating equipment. I love the PC backing up other weapons, but that's a little too much dedication to a specific utility that's not going to directly damage the opponent. I do understand that excessive heat essentially denies your opponent a portion of his arsenal, but 6 tons plus space for ammo and the HS to handle 14 heat is rather much for me.

7 heat is annoying, but generally it will not start forcing shutdown or ammo explosion rolls which is why people will generally not worry about it until after it hits.  14 heat on the other hand can cause serious problems, so people will be reluctant to push the heat scale with that threat in position, and if used right you do not even need to fire the heaters most of the time because if you hold it to last in your attack declaration order the enemy will have to react to it and you can then instead use that dissipation to bracket in an ERPPC.  I have a configuration for my custom Bulwark (the Dire Wolf competitor I mentioned earlier) that takes this to the next level with 4 cannons and 2 ERPPCs so it can overheat two enemies simultaneously.

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=253.0

[IndyRI]

Well with twoe nemies you run into the "it's likely to miss" category all over again. I understand the philosophy behind it, and it can work in a purpose-built design, but I would rather not use an assault in that role. A lighter mech, low-end heavy or high-end medium, would be mobile enough to get into position to affect the most vulnerable andd/or vital heat targets, and would be a far more efficient use of what is largely a support design in the purest sense. Personal preference is all.

[snewsom2997]

In real life if planning a planetary militia, non-XL simply cheaper easier to maintain, in Universe fighting front line units, XL.

[Fatebringer]

I see the Nightwolf examples and have to point out the Dark Crow. Lots of our fellow Clanners were jumping on the, "It's Awesome!" bandwagon, but I stayed on the side of the road. To me, it just didn't have the firepower or speed to justify using an XL engine in the design. For 2nd Line mechs, there are plenty of mechs with the same kind of damage profile and no XL such as the Hellhound, or a mechs that capitolize on the extra tonnage such as the Vapor Eagle. At least the Goshawk II increased mobility when it decreased firepower and gave itself a new role when it added the infantry killers.

Eventually as more of the Clan started to USE them mech, they got off the bandwagon at the next stop. Still cool to have, new design, nice fluff etc. The dispossessed will never complain ;) With the amount of ammo they gave it, Give it a good pilot and put it on air support detail. Still, I think it's a waste of an XL engine.

[Diablo48]

Well with twoe nemies you run into the "it's likely to miss" category all over again. I understand the philosophy behind it, and it can work in a purpose-built design, but I would rather not use an assault in that role. A lighter mech, low-end heavy or high-end medium, would be mobile enough to get into position to affect the most vulnerable andd/or vital heat targets, and would be a far more efficient use of what is largely a support design in the purest sense. Personal preference is all.

Fair enough, I will admit that that configuration probably does go a little overboard with the plasma, although it can still throw an adequate 40 damage downrange while the FL plates and SFE let it absorb an incredible amount of punishment so it does not have terrible odds against 'Mechs.  Of course, while it is merely adequate against 'Mechs those Plasma Cannons make it incredibly lethal against just about anything else so it becomes far more useful in a combined arms environment.

[IndyRI]

Oh I see the merits, it just conflicts with my personal design and tactical philosophies. I think we've already established pretty solidly that we differ quite a bit in those two areas, Diablo  ;)

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

In a campaign where money is an issue, standard-engine mechs are much cheaper. I played a campaign where I was able to build or buy mechs like Shadow Hawk IIC, Rifleman IIC, Glass Spider, for half or even one-third the cost of an XL-engine mech.

Apart from that I don't really mind either way. Clan XL isn't as vulnerable as IS XL so it has a much better trade-off with the weight it saves. The Vapor Eagle is second-line and XL and it's one of the meanest mechs in the game.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Generally, speaking, I'd rather my 2nd Liners stayed with Endo and Ferro, but standard engine.  I do grant that XLs are preferable in certain cases, basically for light & speedy types, in which case I'd likely use all three.  The Pack Hunter's a good example.  With just Endo it's okay, add Ferro and it's good, switch ES/FF for an XL and it's very good(simply sinking spare tonnage into armor in both cases), but give it all three and you can make something great.
 
 
OTOH, you can just about make something Dire Wolf level with a standard engine, ES, and FF.  Runs a little short of crits if you're not careful though.

[Diablo48]

OTOH, you can just about make something Dire Wolf level with a standard engine, ES, and FF.  Runs a little short of crits if you're not careful though.

Honestly, I think that would crash and burn with both endo and FF.  I ran a design with FL armor which actually eats tonnage, and there is no way I could have made endo work on many of the configurations.

[Stormfury]

Trick is to use ballistics. Gauss Rifles and Class 10 A/Cs don't take that many crits, but they will eat up the tonnage. The range is OK and the damage solid. You only run out of crits if you need a lot of heat sinks.

I think Dire Wolf-level is a bit of a reach (not enough crits for things like the Widowmaker), but as an upgrade for the Kingfisher it might be worthwhile.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I was looking at it on a sheer tonnage basis, mostly.  The DW has 50.5/41, switching the XL to stanadrd and adding ES/FF you can get 49/31.  And that's without ditching the 3 fixed DHS.  So, significantly shorter on crits, but with only 1.5 tons less capacity.

[Diablo48]

Trick is to use ballistics. Gauss Rifles and Class 10 A/Cs don't take that many crits, but they will eat up the tonnage. The range is OK and the damage solid. You only run out of crits if you need a lot of heat sinks.

That kind of works, but it will hurt you in flexibility in ways that I really do not like and will wind up costing you utility on the field when you cannot effectively carry the best weapons in the Clan arsenal.

I think Dire Wolf-level is a bit of a reach (not enough crits for things like the Widowmaker), but as an upgrade for the Kingfisher it might be worthwhile.

The thing is I feel confident I manged to reach the bar set by the Dire Wolf on my Bulwark with 41 tons of pod space and 39 crits thanks to the dramatically increased protection of the FL armor with a rugged SFE.  If you want to look at it yourself, it is in the link below:

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,253.0.html

[StCptMara]

As a Blood Spirit, my vote should be obvious.

Standard Engines, because of the durability. Remember, a proper 'mech maximized: Firepower, Endurance, and survivability while
minimizing cost.
Since an XL engine compromises survivability and endurance, it has no place on a proper 'mech.

[Fletch]

As any good horse will tell you, just bring more tanks!

For defensive rolls where you have to stand and deliver I would take mechs with a SFE.  For offensive rolls where you are chasing the dark caste etc and speed is king, XL's.

[Fatebringer]

He he he,

On assaults where you already have lots of tonnage and no room, drop the Ferro Fiberous. You can still keep good coverage and that'll eat up some tonnage and give you some crit room. Endo will always save you more tonnage then the Ferro will so drop Ferro first.

[Moonsword]

He he he,

On assaults where you already have lots of tonnage and no room, drop the Ferro Fiberous. You can still keep good coverage and that'll eat up some tonnage and give you some crit room. Endo will always save you more tonnage then the Ferro will so drop Ferro first.

For absolute optimization, yes.  However, endo-steel is apparently harder to make than ferro-fibrous is due to the infrastructure required.  Given that, I'd prefer to reserve endo-steel for front-line machines.

In general, I prefer SFE machines, but there are times and places for XLFE second-liners.  It really depends on role.

[GBscientist]

Second-line BattleMechs are supposed to be cheap and plentiful, so SFE is a must for Medium 'mechs or heavier.  I am a very large fan of the Stooping Hawk, for instance, and I've designed two SFE OmniMechs for my personal second-line use.  The first was a 75 tonne upgrade of the Grizzly chassis and the second was an Endo-Steel framed Omni version of the Stone Rhino.

For anything in the Light weight class (or even 40 tonnes, like the Viper) an XL engine doesn't bother me much.  As long as they have an all-purpose energy weapon load, its fine.  For instance, the Pack Hunter II is a pretty spiffy second-line light 'mech.

[IndyRI]

Also, we should all keep in mind that every argument here should be completely turned on its head in the case of Steel Viper second line mechs.  :D

[Hellraiser]

Well just for this thread I did a little research I found my list of "New" favorite clan mechs.

UrbanMech-IIC
GreatWyrm
Matador
ThunderStallion-1&2
SuperNova-1
Imp-C
StoneRhino-1

Anyone able to figure out what those 8 mech have in common ?

[Moonsword]

Most of those should be SFEs.

[Arkansas Warrior]

They're also all pretty slow for their size.

[Istal_Devalis]

My answer is going to depend entirely on production, honestly.
If I can produce enough XL engines that my Omni production isnt impeded? Sure, slap them into as many Standard 'Mechs as I have engines.
If I CANT, however, they're getting pulled in favor of keeping the Omni's going. 

No one seems to be having that problem ATM.  Omni production is at a record low with the loss of the homeworlds, so it looks like XL Engines are free to spread to 2nd line units. 

[Neufeld]

It seems to me that the best XL-engine mechs should be treated like 1.5-line mechs, used in front-line formations when omnis are not available, and otherwise given to the best warriors in second-line units. As for the not so good designs with XL engines like Bane and Dasher II, well they should not exist.

[IndyRI]

It seems to me that the best XL-engine mechs should be treated like 1.5-line mechs, used in front-line formations when omnis are not available, and otherwise given to the best warriors in second-line units. As for the not so good designs with XL engines like Bane 1 and Dasher II, well they should not exist.

Corrected for ya

[Diablo48]

Corrected for ya

Aff, the 3 in particular is a devastating machine.

[IndyRI]

The 3 is arguably the most definitive missile boat in the game. And as is typical of a clan missile boat, it can bodyguard for itself.

[Col.Hengist]

I agree with Mara. Second liners are nearly as good as front line omnis and there are a few I would prefer in their weight range like the highlander IIc to the executioner prime. Yea the Exe has better movement but the highlander puts out way more firepower AND has more armor AND has a sfe. Cheaper and much more survivable. The difference between a 5 movement max and a 6(8) is +1 to hit at the 8. Its not really a big deal.

[Hellraiser]

Most of those should be SFEs.

They're also all pretty slow for their size.

Yes, they are all SFE.
And while the 1st 2 are slow, I'm not sure you can reliably get any of the others to go "much" faster.

That said, the full answer is they all use SFE, SIS, & SArmor, making them very easy to produce w/o anything advanced on them outside the Weapons, DHS, & Clan CASE.

[idea weenie]

Trick is to use ballistics. Gauss Rifles and Class 10 A/Cs don't take that many crits, but they will eat up the tonnage. The range is OK and the damage solid. You only run out of crits if you need a lot of heat sinks.

The other fun is if you use ballistics, and later swap a SFE for an XL engine, you can use a few of the tons freed up for extra ammo.  Turn a regular Mech into a long-range sniper/LRM support Mech.

A comparison of XL engines vs E-S or FF armor:
SIS -> ES: you free up 5% of the Mech's tonnage (SIS = 10%, E-S = 5%)
SArmor -> F-F: free up 3-4% of the Mech's tonnage (A 100 tonner Mech uses 19.5 tons of regular armor, or 16.25 tons of F-F; 3 tons/100 = 3%)
SFE -> XL engine: Using the original Locust as an example.  It mounts a 160 rated engine to be a 8/12 20 ton Mech.  That engine masses 6 tons.  An XL version masses 3 tons, so you are freeing up 15% of the mech's tonnage.

Out of the three options, an XL engine provides the best benefit.  I'd expect to see the Clans using SFE Mechs while the factories are running, refitting to produce XL engines as they get the chance.  E-S might be incorporated later, but designed for their Omni chassis.  Existing manufacuring centers would make the E-S, and it would be shipped to the Inner Sphere.  The Ghost Bears have an advantage here, as their infrastructure is in the IS already.

So my answer is: use SFE Mechs with Clan tech where possible, changing to XL engines as the Mechs come up for refit and XL engines are available.  Ferro-fibrous armor might be used as it is a simple fix, but provides the least benefit out of the three.

To give an idea of the sheer advantage, let's look at the original Locust:
Swapping regular armor for CF-F, I can mount 3.5 tons of CF-F, get 67 pts of protection (more than the current 64).  Savings = 2.5%
Swapping SIS for E-S, I only need 1 ton instead of 2.  Savings = 5%
Swapping an XL engine for SFE: Either saving 3 tons as above, or increasing the speed to 11/17 (a 220 XL engine is 5 tons, but I need 1 more ton for Gyro).

Another area to look into savings would be swapping regular Machine Guns for their Clan equivalent (half the weight of an IS MG).

Assuming I just use a XL engine, that regular Locust turns into something packing 4 ML, 4 Clan MG, and half a ton of MG ammo. Removing a single ML allows mounting 4 more MG if you want.  You only get 12.5 turns of fire from the MG, but whoever is that close is not going to be happy.

[Iron Mongoose]

There's two ways to look at it I think.  From a design stand point, I'd probably put XLs in most of my standard, non-omni, 'second line' mechs.  I like the Clan XL a lot, and I think its worth it from a design stant point.  I tend to like the IS XL, too, though.

But, from the stand point of what 'second line' means to me, I'd pick SFEs, and I did for the poll.  For a Clanner, second line is second class.  Its not important to give them good mechs.  Its only of secondary importance to actualy give them mechs at all.  So of course wasting energy on an XL is not worth it.  Yes, I'd like to see well designed SFE mechs there, but its not critical, so long as I can keep the same number of omnis or more in my main line units. 

The nice up side there is durability.  An SFE mech can survive more and longer, and even in a losing battle you can often cobble your force back together.  The last thing you want is to have to replace your second liners all the time; save that for the front liners.  (Though granted Clan second line warriors tend to fight more savagely, since they personaly have nothing to lose, so cheap to rebuild and replace mechs are even more of a must).

The idea of super-seconds has always been hard to understand for me, though I try.  Some mechs are legitamately better than front line counterparts.  If it can be done on the cheap, why not.  But if for that same cost you could have a front liner, then have it.  Or just assign the super-second to the front line (which I'm pretty ok with in some instances).

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

The idea of super-seconds has always been hard to understand for me, though I try.  Some mechs are legitamately better than front line counterparts.  If it can be done on the cheap, why not.  But if for that same cost you could have a front liner, then have it.  Or just assign the super-second to the front line (which I'm pretty ok with in some instances).

I think the human factor is present here, namely Clan bigotry. I get the impression that the mindset of many Clan Warriors is that the omnimech is king, end of discussion, and that's as much about arbitrary prestige as it is any rational reasoning. An omnimech is a status symbol. The one-on-one Trial of Grievance/Refusal custom may come into play too, with Warriors liking the flexibility and unpredictability an omnimech can give them here. Sure a Rifleman IIC might kick ass but it's always going to be the same thing. As I say a lot, military logic and common sense often play second fiddle to Clan notions of honor and prestige.

[idea weenie]

The nice up side there is durability.  An SFE mech can survive more and longer, and even in a losing battle you can often cobble your force back together.  The last thing you want is to have to replace your second liners all the time; save that for the front liners.  (Though granted Clan second line warriors tend to fight more savagely, since they personaly have nothing to lose, so cheap to rebuild and replace mechs are even more of a must).

I'd argue that XL engines will allow for more durability.  Based on the Locust example, you'll be freeing up 15% of the Mech's tonnage.  That is the highest benefit compared to E-S or F-F.  The additional tonnage can be used for additional armor, sensors, jammers, ammo, heat sinks, and/or weapons.  They don't need to survive longer, if the enemy is dead faster.  The Locust can quadruple its ranged firepower by switching to an XL engine.

It also allows for easier repairs for the front-line units.  Instead of having to search for an XL engine from the supply center, they perform a Trial for the XL engine in a second-line Mech.  By using the same engines in your second-line units as your main units, this makes it easier to keep your main forces operating.  Essentially, I'd treat the second-line forces as a mobile, self-defending supply depot.  Whatever is put in the secod-line Mech should be selected from a list of what will benefit a front-line Mech, not other considerations.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think the human factor is present here, namely Clan bigotry. I get the impression that the mindset of many Clan Warriors is that the omnimech is king, end of discussion, and that's as much about arbitrary prestige as it is any rational reasoning. An omnimech is a status symbol. The one-on-one Trial of Grievance/Refusal custom may come into play too, with Warriors liking the flexibility and unpredictability an omnimech can give them here. Sure a Rifleman IIC might kick ass but it's always going to be the same thing. As I say a lot, military logic and common sense often play second fiddle to Clan notions of honor and prestige.

Recall too that secondline mechs are driven by secondline warriors.  That Rifleman IIC doesn't look as good in the hands of a green pilot going up against a veteran in Stormcrow.  I've always figured on that being a major reason for the pulses on second liners.  The designers are building in a compensation for the relatively unskilled pilots.

[Col.Hengist]

then put those second line mechs with the pulses in the hands of some of the best clan warriors, clan Bloodspirit and see what happens. Id rather have a second line mech with a sfe engine piloted by a spirit than any other standard pilot from any clan in their omni.

[StCptMara]

then put those second line mechs with the pulses in the hands of some of the best clan warriors, clan Bloodspirit and see what happens. Id rather have a second line mech with a sfe engine piloted by a spirit than any other standard pilot from any clan in their omni.

Ever looked at our Front Line RAT? Notice the sheer proportion of so-called "Second Line" 'mechs there?

[Guardsman]

I’m against XL Engines on principal. However, in universe, I think it would make sense for Second Line units to use them. Their lives are not as worthy as front line, so if they can draw some advantage from their genetic or temporal defects, then all power to them!

[Col.Hengist]

Ever looked at our Front Line RAT? Notice the sheer proportion of so-called "Second Line" 'mechs there?

 Sure have,its exactly what I was getting at  ;D

[Diablo48]

I’m against XL Engines on principal.

Why?  The Clan XLE is one of the greatest pieces of equipment in the game with tremendous weight savings for a minimal increase in vulnerability.  It is a little bit pricey, but considering the apparent ease with which the Clans can mass produce them I think that is more of an IS issue.

[Guardsman]

Why?  The Clan XLE is one of the greatest pieces of equipment in the game with tremendous weight savings for a minimal increase in vulnerability.  It is a little bit pricey, but considering the apparent ease with which the Clans can mass produce them I think that is more of an IS issue.

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my soldiers to be eternal. Also, I play Clan Smoke Jaguar, which means my 'Mechs usually end up with virtually no torso armour left. When you play that aggressively, that minimal vulnerability is amplified tenfold.

[Diablo48]

Call me old fashioned, but I prefer my soldiers to be eternal. Also, I play Clan Smoke Jaguar, which means my 'Mechs usually end up with virtually no torso armour left. When you play that aggressively, that minimal vulnerability is amplified tenfold.

The thing is, I would rather have the drastically improved speed, armor, or firepower than a little extra engine durability.  After all, that  engine vulnerability will not be a problem if you cut them down before they can chew through your armor.

[Guardsman]

The thing is, I would rather have the drastically improved speed, armor, or firepower than a little extra engine durability.  After all, that  engine vulnerability will not be a problem if you cut them down before they can chew through your armor.

I'm a Smoke Jaguar and you're a Ghost Bear. In this conversation, you're aggressive and I'm cautious. I think the cleaners might have mixed up our uniforms.

[IndyRI]

I think there's a place for both XLEs and SFEs in Clan doctrine, but I'm siding with Diablo on this one, Guardsman. It would take having both side torsos destroyed, critical hits aside, to kill an Clan mech with an XLE, and the amount of extra armor, weapons, speed, equipment you can mount for the weight savings will be worthwhile the majority of the time. There are a few designs which make the most of the cheaper SFE, and the extra zombie factor certainly doesn't suck, but it's hard to justify something that much heavier when the difference is relatively minute.

[Moonsword]

As noted before, role determines it for me.  An XLFE used well is not something I have issues justifying.  But for a lot of slower 'Mechs, a thoughtful employment of Clan technology can make an SFE 'Mech quite competitive and free up manufacturing resources for other uses.

[IndyRI]

As noted before, role determines it for me.  An XLFE used well is not something I have issues justifying.  But for a lot of slower 'Mechs, a thoughtful employment of Clan technology can make an SFE 'Mech quite competitive and free up manufacturing resources for other uses.

One of the reasons I love my Grizzly. 4/6/4 with good armor and weapons for all seasons. The SFE is just icing on the cake at that point.

[Moonsword]

Exactly.  But there are second-liners that use an XLFE to get a mix of firepower and speed you simply can't get with an SFE like the Solitaire or the Sphinx but still stack on armor to offset the engine's own vulnerability.

[Guardsman]

I think there's a place for both XLEs and SFEs in Clan doctrine, but I'm siding with Diablo on this one, Guardsman. It would take having both side torsos destroyed, critical hits aside, to kill an Clan mech with an XLE, and the amount of extra armor, weapons, speed, equipment you can mount for the weight savings will be worthwhile the majority of the time. There are a few designs which make the most of the cheaper SFE, and the extra zombie factor certainly doesn't suck, but it's hard to justify something that much heavier when the difference is relatively minute.

It has its advantages and its drawbacks. Some would trade the advantages, which are considerable, for the drawbacks. Now, let’s just line up my shot, ooh, critical to the left torso. Come on low number, papa needs a new kill.

[Guardsman]

One of the reasons I love my Grizzly. 4/6/4 with good armor and weapons for all seasons. The SFE is just icing on the cake at that point.

Sigh, so many Clans have cool 'Mechs. I wish the Jaguars were still around, producing 'Mechs and kicking butt.

[Col.Hengist]

Sigh, so many Clans have cool 'Mechs. I wish the Jaguars were still around, producing 'Mechs and kicking butt.

 I think the adders are still producing the ebon jaguar.

[Guardsman]

I think the adders are still producing the ebon jaguar.

Not the same! :(

[Col.Hengist]

Lol ok

[Guardsman]

Lol ok

I won't be happy until the three or four galaxies, and few warships that were unaccounted for show up, and declare themselves survivors of their so-called trial of annihilation.

[Stormfury]

As has been said in the past, those units either never existed, or did so only on paper.

[Guardsman]

As has been said in the past, those units either never existed, or did so only on paper.

Can't you at least let me dream? :'(

Guardsman dreams . o o ( Smoke Jaguar jackboots walking across Terra, after becoming the ilClan )

[IndyRI]

It has its advantages and its drawbacks. Some would trade the advantages, which are considerable, for the drawbacks. Now, let’s just line up my shot, ooh, critical to the left torso. Come on low number, papa needs a new kill.

Well that kill will need to follow other criticals. Knocking out a single side torso won't kill a mech with a Clan XLE. You need either both side torsos or an improbable number of engine crit hits. It's fairly unlikely, all things considered.

[Moonsword]

Well that kill will need to follow other criticals. Knocking out a single side torso won't kill a mech with a Clan XLE. You need either both side torsos or an improbable number of engine crit hits. It's fairly unlikely, all things considered.

Or one engine crit and a fried side torso.  If your armor levels aren't that high, it's not as uncommon as you might think.

[Guardsman]

Or one engine crit and a fried side torso.  If your armor levels aren't that high, it's not as uncommon as you might think.

I found it to be far too common for my liking, and by the way, nice Rabid Coyote avatar.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Indeed.  Verra Nice.

[Guardsman]

Indeed.  Verra Nice.

I'm actually thinking of colourising mine, but it'd be so inolved, plus, I have a funny feeling it'd make him even more sinister looking.

[Moonsword]

I'm actually thinking of colourising mine, but it'd be so inolved, plus, I have a funny feeling it'd make him even more sinister looking.

That's what you get for misappropriating a Nova Cat Khan's picture.

I found it to be far too common for my liking, and by the way, nice Rabid Coyote avatar.

Thanks.

[IndyRI]

Or one engine crit and a fried side torso.  If your armor levels aren't that high, it's not as uncommon as you might think.

It happens, but for the weapons and speed you get it's still a relatively rare negative trade-off. It does present pretty often with lighter designs with little armor, but at that point, if they're getting hit they aren't expecting to live much longer anyways.

[idea weenie]

Or one engine crit and a fried side torso.  If your armor levels aren't that high, it's not as uncommon as you might think.

A CXL engine saves ~15% of the Mech's mass, and needs 4 critical slots.  CF-F only saves you 3% of the Mech's tonnage, and uses up 7 critical slots.  If I had access to the factory, I'd take a Mech with CF-F, and swap it for CXLE.  This saves me 11-12% of the Mech's tonnage, and frees up 3 critical slots.  Even with a 20-tonner, that gives me 2 more tons to play with for extra stuff.  Including extra armor.

CF-F is a great Field refit for a Mech, so the Mech's protection can be increased much faster (or saving a ton or so and adding more ammo/weapons), but the CXLE is a wonderful thing, that has to be refitted at a Factory.

[Moonsword]

Not what I was getting at.  There's plenty of Clan XLFE 'Mechs that don't offset the vulnerability by armoring the torsos correctly, which was what I was getting at right there.  The Hellbringer is an excellent example.

There's also plenty of them that use that XLFE to become fast-moving, heavily-armed bricks.  The Stormcrow and Timber Wolf are the canonical examples of that for me.

[Guardsman]

Thanks.

What Cluster or Galaxy is that meant to be, or is just simple blue-grey Coyote?

[Moonsword]

It's Delta Galaxy and was based on the Rabid Coyote in that Galaxy in CamoSpecs.

[Guardsman]

It's Delta Galaxy and was based on the Rabid Coyote in that Galaxy in CamoSpecs.

Nicely done.

On a side note, which should not be a side note, I think my reluctance on the XL Engine is probably some bleed over from the Inner Sphere XL Engines. For the Clans, it’s not nearly as risky.

[IndyRI]

On a side note, which should not be a side note, I think my reluctance on the XL Engine is probably some bleed over from the Inner Sphere XL Engines. For the Clans, it’s not nearly as risky.

Likely the case. A lot of IS players tend to get a little sick to their stomachs at the sight of XLEs, largely due to the bad feeling fostered by the canonical designs that use it. Even IS XLEs have their uses, but it's such a vulnerability issue that you really have to make excellent use of that saved space to be worthwhile. In the Clans, it's possible to screw up and XLE, but it's far more forgiving by its very nature.

[Moonsword]

I don't get too bothered by IS XLFEs in general, personally.  What turns my stomach is the XXLFE (either tech base) or someone using an XLFE without stacking armor in front of it to mitigate the vulnerability as best you can.  Clan XLFEs aren't quite as bad right there but I prefer they're armored as well.  Since there's generally also other things in the side torso you don't want getting hit either (like, say, ammo), a certain level of armor seems well advised.

[IndyRI]

I don't get too bothered by IS XLFEs in general, personally.  What turns my stomach is the XXLFE (either tech base) or someone using an XLFE without stacking armor in front of it to mitigate the vulnerability as best you can.  Clan XLFEs aren't quite as bad right there but I prefer they're armored as well.  Since there's generally also other things in the side torso you don't want getting hit either (like, say, ammo), a certain level of armor seems well advised.

I don't have the instant turnoff to IS XLEs that many players do. But they definitely make me nervous. Used properly they give you enough firepower and equipment to make up the difference easily, but you do have to be more careful with terrain, placement,, coordination between units, etc. I think TRO: 3050 did a lot to permanently hurt their reputation though.

[Moonsword]

TRO3050 did a lot of damage to a lot of reputations.  Streak 2s and Narc didn't really make out well there either, as I recall, and the Panther is still trying to shake off the PNT-10K.

[Neufeld]

What turns my stomach is the XXLFE (either tech base)

QFT. Especially the way XXLFE seems to be the most common experimental tech in use.  [madflame] [soapbox] [metalhealth] [tickedoff]

[Guardsman]

I don't have the instant turnoff to IS XLEs that many players do. But they definitely make me nervous. Used properly they give you enough firepower and equipment to make up the difference easily, but you do have to be more careful with terrain, placement,, coordination between units, etc. I think TRO: 3050 did a lot to permanently hurt their reputation though.

What would you say was the best example of a pre-Jihad IS XLE?

[Arkansas Warrior]

QFT. Especially the way XXLFE seems to be the most common experimental tech in use.  [madflame] [soapbox] [metalhealth] [tickedoff]

About the only time I'll use one on a serious design is if it's the combination of XXLFE and Hardened Armor.  That way there's no worry of it getting TACed out, and dropping a torso will take a lot longer.

[Guardsman]

About the only time I'll use one on a serious design is if it's the combination of XXLFE and Hardened Armor.  That way there's no worry of it getting TACed out, and dropping a torso will take a lot longer.

Sell out! ;)

[Doug Glendower]

When I play Clan, my main ride is the Stupid Hawk.



Stooping. I said Stooping.

[Guardsman]

When I play Clan, my main ride is the Stupid Hawk.



Stooping. I said Stooping.

Now why would you go and say a thing like that about your own 'Mech? Somebody did not like the 'Mech he was assigned.

[IndyRI]

What would you say was the best example of a pre-Jihad IS XLE?

Well the Berserker is a surprisingly well-done one. Whole bunch of armor; makes the most of the XLE to get extra speed both to get its hatchet in range and to avoid fire; MASC for added effect; AMS and ECm for increased survivability to get 8it in close; Flamer for anti-infatry and firestarting. I can't give it the medal though, since it still uses a Hatchet. Awesome though they may be, they're a waste of space.

So my personal favorite use of the XLE prior to the Jihad, and this is just going off of memory, would be the Falconer. It's a 5/8/5 large heavy with both a Gauss Rifle and ER PPC, and a salvo of MLs for in-close work. It moves fast, hits hard, and has enough survivability to take msot hits that are thrown at it. It probably comes closest to approximating a Clan mech of any of the early IS reactionary-designs.

[Moonsword]

I lean toward the Dragon Fire but the Falconer is a good one.

[Doug Glendower]

Now why would you go and say a thing like that about your own 'Mech? Somebody did not like the 'Mech he was assigned.

Yeah, the name. The 'Mech is awesome. The name? Not so much. Besides, it's a touch of the reverse psychology. "Oh, he called it stupid! Wait. OW! OW! OW! OH GOD WHY WON'T IT DIE?! OW!"

[StCptMara]

What would you say was the best example of a pre-Jihad IS XLE?

The Sunder, the Raptor, the Venom, 3050 Book Charger

Best Jihad era use: Locust 6M.

[Crunch]

Well the Berserker is a surprisingly well-done one. Whole bunch of armor; makes the most of the XLE to get extra speed both to get its hatchet in range and to avoid fire; MASC for added effect; AMS and ECm for increased survivability to get 8it in close; Flamer for anti-infatry and firestarting. I can't give it the medal though, since it still uses a Hatchet. Awesome though they may be, they're a waste of space.

So my personal favorite use of the XLE prior to the Jihad, and this is just going off of memory, would be the Falconer. It's a 5/8/5 large heavy with both a Gauss Rifle and ER PPC, and a salvo of MLs for in-close work. It moves fast, hits hard, and has enough survivability to take msot hits that are thrown at it. It probably comes closest to approximating a Clan mech of any of the early IS reactionary-designs.

I'll second both the Falconer and the Berserker.

[Stormfury]

WVR-7K, TR1, LNX, etc do it well. The medium weight class gets the most- light enough to be fast, heavy enough to carry the firepower. Heavies and Assaults are subject to diminishing returns, and Lights are already struggling for mass.