How do you want your second-line mechs: XL or standard engine?

[Neufeld]

So, for those second-line non-omni mechs, what do you feel about using an XL-engine for them?
Can you justify the cost of an XL-engine or should those failures be happy to get a machine with a standard engine?
Overall what role do you envision for Clan non-omnis with XL-engines?

[Diablo48]

I would stick with an XLE most of the time because it dramatically improves performance, and more often than not you wind up using those "second-line" 'Mechs in front-line formations or getting them caught in heavy fighting on the defensive, so I find the extra cost of the engines to be acceptable.  Now, there are cases where a SFE is a good idea like the SFE Dire Wolf competitor I made that can actually meet that high bar thanks to FL armor.

[maddyfish]

I think in the modern era the distinction between front line and second line units has been blurred to some extent. Omni, being harder to construct, now that many Clans are in the IS, make second line units more important and more vital in front line actions. Really the only significant difference is omni or non omni, the unit will likely see heavy combat either way.

[Pa Weasley]

A good mech is a good mech, omni or not. If an XL engine is what helps make it so, I'm all for it. I'm just happy to see that the IS Clans at least are starting to field standard mechs in their front line forces. Admittedly it's partly due the desperate need to supply forces, but the Clans have built some fantastic "second line" mechs over the years. An XL engine standard mech is still cheaper and easier to get off the drawing board and into production than an XL omni.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

I prefer my second-liners to use standard engines. As was stated earlier, Second-line are mainly defensive formations IMO. Because of that, speed is less important. They should not have to move far to get to where they need to be. With that in mind they can afford to go slower, thus using smaller engines and making up the tonnage of the XL with that. They will either outlast their opponents by being a Zombie, or they will stay standing long enough for the Front-line forces to arrive and save the day.

[IndyRI]

I voted SFE but so long as it's a clan machine I can be comfortable either way. Cost is less a concern for me than is survivability and utlity. XLE allows for a faster machine or one with more weapons, but becomes dangerously hot in the case of a torso loss, and will typically go down slightly quicker. Overall, I like the heartier SFE, but Clan XLs are not nearly the liability that you find with the IS version. It's a simple matter of preference.

[Fatebringer]

It's hard to make a good machine cheap. XL Engines are the biggest contributor to raised costs. If you need it for the second line, it's the first thing I trim, either for a long range or short range package, the first thing I give up is some speed so I can keep the weapons packages up.

Increase your range with ER Large Lasers, and you'll get a decent fire support mech, or if it's supposed to be a city fighter, even better, the best thing about not having an XL engine is survivability, you can load it up with Heavy Lasers and a Tarcomp.

[Stormfury]

I think in the modern era the distinction between front line and second line units has been blurred to some extent. Omni, being harder to construct, now that many Clans are in the IS, make second line units more important and more vital in front line actions. Really the only significant difference is omni or non omni, the unit will likely see heavy combat either way.

Ditto. When chosing a force, I'm more concerned with flavour and then effectiveness. If it's in character and the machine is not a total liability (hello, Nightwolf)* I'm fine either way.

If I'm designing a machine or refit from the ground up, it depends on the era and role. If something is older, it is more likely to have a SFE. If it is intended to be cheap, likewise.

*Mainly I'm annoyed they didn't just begin manufacture of the Highlander IIC or something. Or anything, really, other than that :P

[IndyRI]

^Can you explain to me how the Nightwolf is a liability? The Mech of the Week thread covered pretty well that while it's not the most efficient mech in the world, it's perfectly usable, and becoems downright dangerous against combined arms.

[Stormfury]

It's an expensive assault 'Mech that lacks the firepower to take on machines in its class. Moderate changes would make it substantially more dangerous, and allow it to still be a machine for all occasions.

Dual Artemised LRM-15s, paired Plasma Cannon, an ER PPC and an ER Medium Laser would improve its ranged firepower while increasing the anti-vehicle and anti-infantry weaponry it has. It could even have dual LPLs, ATM-6s and  a Plasma Cannon.

I know the idea was along the lines of a Clan-tech Albatross, but designing and manufacturing a brand-new 90 tonner that really lacks the hitting power to threaten anything in its own range really rankles. Desperation is all well and good, but it's not like they didn't have other options- like reviving the Highlander IIC.

[vidar]

Really the question is more for heavy and assault mechs.  I went neko in a dress, because for light and medium mech XL engines are becoming a necessity.  For Heavy and Assault class mech cost of an XL figures in more.

[Neufeld]

I went neko in a dress, because for light and medium mech XL engines are becoming a necessity.

For lights, maybe. However, for the medium range there are several decent choices with std FE and 6/9/6 movement.
 

[wantec]

For me it's more about the speed of the mech, if it moves 5/8+ then an XL engine is good, if not I tend to avoid them on Clan designs.

[IndyRI]

It's an expensive assault 'Mech that lacks the firepower to take on machines in its class. Moderate changes would make it substantially more dangerous, and allow it to still be a machine for all occasions.

I know the idea was along the lines of a Clan-tech Albatross, but designing and manufacturing a brand-new 90 tonner that really lacks the hitting power to threaten anything in its own range really rankles. Desperation is all well and good, but it's not like they didn't have other options- like reviving the Highlander IIC.

Well paired Plasma Cannons are almost always a bad idea. It's a great weapon to tack on as a secondary catch-all response to anything other than a cool-running mech, but the 15 heat cap and the fact that it's so darned effective at countering combined arms make pairing it up a waste of tonnage most of the time.

As for the baseline Night Wolf, it's a quick, jumping assault with a lot of armor and the ability to deal 79 damage and up to 15 heat in close ranges. At a distance it suffers, capable of hitting for only 36 damage, but the main method of doing so is TCd, even if that only brings it down to even money. Overall it's a great city mech. Capable of demolishing combined arms of all sorts, and strong enough up close to destroy even larger mechs. Hell, the Daishi Prime can only deal 9 more damage without going Ultra with the ACs, and even then, 98 damage and no heat versus 79 damage and up to 15 heat isn't that much of a difference considering the weight difference. The Night Wolf is a mobile, ECM toting, AMS sporting, death machine in a city. It's not that versatile, but used right it can kill.

[Diablo48]

Well paired Plasma Cannons are almost always a bad idea. It's a great weapon to tack on as a secondary catch-all response to anything other than a cool-running mech, but the 15 heat cap and the fact that it's so darned effective at countering combined arms make pairing it up a waste of tonnage most of the time.

Honestly, you really do need the pairing to be able to insure that you connect with at least 1, and you need 2 hits to have a chance at capping the heat buildup because 2D6 heat is average 7 max 12, so 2 average hits will not reach the cap at 14.  Because of this, one gun is just not enough to really scare people because there are good odds it will miss completely, and even if it does hit it will probably not cause enough heat buildup to be an immediately problematic so you can ignore it until it actually hits and deal with the spike after the fact.  If you want to really bother 'Mechs, you need to be able to scare them enough to keep them from using some of their weapons which the Night Wolf is simply not capable of.

[IndyRI]

Well there honestly aren't many mechs I would gladly take a hit for 7 heat on, even so. I udnerstand the utility, but that's 6 tons plus ammo for strictly heat-generating equipment. I love the PC backing up other weapons, but that's a little too much dedication to a specific utility that's not going to directly damage the opponent. I do understand that excessive heat essentially denies your opponent a portion of his arsenal, but 6 tons plus space for ammo and the HS to handle 14 heat is rather much for me.

[Diablo48]

Well there honestly aren't many mechs I would gladly take a hit for 7 heat on, even so. I udnerstand the utility, but that's 6 tons plus ammo for strictly heat-generating equipment. I love the PC backing up other weapons, but that's a little too much dedication to a specific utility that's not going to directly damage the opponent. I do understand that excessive heat essentially denies your opponent a portion of his arsenal, but 6 tons plus space for ammo and the HS to handle 14 heat is rather much for me.

7 heat is annoying, but generally it will not start forcing shutdown or ammo explosion rolls which is why people will generally not worry about it until after it hits.  14 heat on the other hand can cause serious problems, so people will be reluctant to push the heat scale with that threat in position, and if used right you do not even need to fire the heaters most of the time because if you hold it to last in your attack declaration order the enemy will have to react to it and you can then instead use that dissipation to bracket in an ERPPC.  I have a configuration for my custom Bulwark (the Dire Wolf competitor I mentioned earlier) that takes this to the next level with 4 cannons and 2 ERPPCs so it can overheat two enemies simultaneously.

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=253.0

[IndyRI]

Well with twoe nemies you run into the "it's likely to miss" category all over again. I understand the philosophy behind it, and it can work in a purpose-built design, but I would rather not use an assault in that role. A lighter mech, low-end heavy or high-end medium, would be mobile enough to get into position to affect the most vulnerable andd/or vital heat targets, and would be a far more efficient use of what is largely a support design in the purest sense. Personal preference is all.

[snewsom2997]

In real life if planning a planetary militia, non-XL simply cheaper easier to maintain, in Universe fighting front line units, XL.

[Fatebringer]

I see the Nightwolf examples and have to point out the Dark Crow. Lots of our fellow Clanners were jumping on the, "It's Awesome!" bandwagon, but I stayed on the side of the road. To me, it just didn't have the firepower or speed to justify using an XL engine in the design. For 2nd Line mechs, there are plenty of mechs with the same kind of damage profile and no XL such as the Hellhound, or a mechs that capitolize on the extra tonnage such as the Vapor Eagle. At least the Goshawk II increased mobility when it decreased firepower and gave itself a new role when it added the infantry killers.

Eventually as more of the Clan started to USE them mech, they got off the bandwagon at the next stop. Still cool to have, new design, nice fluff etc. The dispossessed will never complain ;) With the amount of ammo they gave it, Give it a good pilot and put it on air support detail. Still, I think it's a waste of an XL engine.

[Diablo48]

Well with twoe nemies you run into the "it's likely to miss" category all over again. I understand the philosophy behind it, and it can work in a purpose-built design, but I would rather not use an assault in that role. A lighter mech, low-end heavy or high-end medium, would be mobile enough to get into position to affect the most vulnerable andd/or vital heat targets, and would be a far more efficient use of what is largely a support design in the purest sense. Personal preference is all.

Fair enough, I will admit that that configuration probably does go a little overboard with the plasma, although it can still throw an adequate 40 damage downrange while the FL plates and SFE let it absorb an incredible amount of punishment so it does not have terrible odds against 'Mechs.  Of course, while it is merely adequate against 'Mechs those Plasma Cannons make it incredibly lethal against just about anything else so it becomes far more useful in a combined arms environment.

[IndyRI]

Oh I see the merits, it just conflicts with my personal design and tactical philosophies. I think we've already established pretty solidly that we differ quite a bit in those two areas, Diablo  ;)

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

In a campaign where money is an issue, standard-engine mechs are much cheaper. I played a campaign where I was able to build or buy mechs like Shadow Hawk IIC, Rifleman IIC, Glass Spider, for half or even one-third the cost of an XL-engine mech.

Apart from that I don't really mind either way. Clan XL isn't as vulnerable as IS XL so it has a much better trade-off with the weight it saves. The Vapor Eagle is second-line and XL and it's one of the meanest mechs in the game.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Generally, speaking, I'd rather my 2nd Liners stayed with Endo and Ferro, but standard engine.  I do grant that XLs are preferable in certain cases, basically for light & speedy types, in which case I'd likely use all three.  The Pack Hunter's a good example.  With just Endo it's okay, add Ferro and it's good, switch ES/FF for an XL and it's very good(simply sinking spare tonnage into armor in both cases), but give it all three and you can make something great.
 
 
OTOH, you can just about make something Dire Wolf level with a standard engine, ES, and FF.  Runs a little short of crits if you're not careful though.

[Diablo48]

OTOH, you can just about make something Dire Wolf level with a standard engine, ES, and FF.  Runs a little short of crits if you're not careful though.

Honestly, I think that would crash and burn with both endo and FF.  I ran a design with FL armor which actually eats tonnage, and there is no way I could have made endo work on many of the configurations.

[Stormfury]

Trick is to use ballistics. Gauss Rifles and Class 10 A/Cs don't take that many crits, but they will eat up the tonnage. The range is OK and the damage solid. You only run out of crits if you need a lot of heat sinks.

I think Dire Wolf-level is a bit of a reach (not enough crits for things like the Widowmaker), but as an upgrade for the Kingfisher it might be worthwhile.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I was looking at it on a sheer tonnage basis, mostly.  The DW has 50.5/41, switching the XL to stanadrd and adding ES/FF you can get 49/31.  And that's without ditching the 3 fixed DHS.  So, significantly shorter on crits, but with only 1.5 tons less capacity.

[Diablo48]

Trick is to use ballistics. Gauss Rifles and Class 10 A/Cs don't take that many crits, but they will eat up the tonnage. The range is OK and the damage solid. You only run out of crits if you need a lot of heat sinks.

That kind of works, but it will hurt you in flexibility in ways that I really do not like and will wind up costing you utility on the field when you cannot effectively carry the best weapons in the Clan arsenal.

I think Dire Wolf-level is a bit of a reach (not enough crits for things like the Widowmaker), but as an upgrade for the Kingfisher it might be worthwhile.

The thing is I feel confident I manged to reach the bar set by the Dire Wolf on my Bulwark with 41 tons of pod space and 39 crits thanks to the dramatically increased protection of the FL armor with a rugged SFE.  If you want to look at it yourself, it is in the link below:

http://www.classicbattletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,253.0.html

[StCptMara]

As a Blood Spirit, my vote should be obvious.

Standard Engines, because of the durability. Remember, a proper 'mech maximized: Firepower, Endurance, and survivability while
minimizing cost.
Since an XL engine compromises survivability and endurance, it has no place on a proper 'mech.

[Fletch]

As any good horse will tell you, just bring more tanks!

For defensive rolls where you have to stand and deliver I would take mechs with a SFE.  For offensive rolls where you are chasing the dark caste etc and speed is king, XL's.