Super-Secondline mechs

[Iron Mongoose]

The "how do you like your second liners" got me to thinking:

Of the verious second line Clan mechs (which is to say, conventional, non-omni mechs) we know that some are better than others.  Some, like the Fire Scorpion, are quite bad.  Many are very good, like the Tundra Wolf or Stone Rhino.  The Great Wyrm is the best of all Clan mechs.

But a few are so good as to rank along side the best veriants of the best front line omni mechs in their class.  The Highlander IIC was debated about this honor in a recent thread, and many agreed that it was in the very top tier of Clan assualt mechs.

What other mechs are like this?  Which other second liners are not just good, but so good that they are at or above the level of not just any omnis, but of the very best ones?

[Neufeld]

Well, looking at the mechs with the highest BV/ton these seems to be candidates:

Light:
Incubus/Vixen 2, 1, 4
Pack Hunter 3, 2
Piranha 3
Howler/Baboon 3

Medium (the top seems to be dominated by omni configs):
Clint IIC 2

Heavy:
Glass Spider/Galahad 3
Rifleman IIC 8, 5, 1
Thresher 2, 1
Guillotine IIC 2
Black Python/Viper 1
Ha Otoko 2
Predator 2

Assault:
Marauder IIC 4, 7
Supernova 3, 4
Warhammer IIC 7, 6
Phoenix Hawk IIC 2
BattleMaster C
Cygnus 2
Canis 2
Highlander IIC 1, 2
Jupiter 2

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

As long as the ranges are short to medium, I would include the Kodiak.

[wackrabbit]

I don't see the Hellstar here.

[Neufeld]

I don't see the Hellstar here.

Because I have not gone through RS3085 The Cutting Edge yet.

[Daedalus]

I think the following Mechs are at least as good as the omni-mechs in their weight-class...

Light:
Incubus 1 & 2
Jenner IIC 2
Locust IIC 3
= Fast little basterds with a decent long range punch.

Medium:
Conjurer 1 & 4
Vapor Eagle 1
= Nice brawlers

Heavy:
Guillotine IIC
Rifleman IIC 1
Glass Spider 2
= the pulse-boats for the fire-star

Assault:
Marauder IIC
Warhammer IIC
Imp C
= standard engines, ErPPCs, lots of MedPls and enough heatsinks are always a strong and durable combination.

[Hellraiser]

Which other second liners are not just good, but so good that they are at or above the level of not just any omnis, but of the very best ones?

Locust-IIC
Vixen
HornedOwl
Jenner-IIC-2
Griffin-IIC
RabidCoyote
Conjurer
VaporEagle
GlassSpider-2
Rifleman-IIC
Guillotine-IIC
BlackPython
WarHammer-IIC
Shogun-C
StoneRhino
Imp-C

To name a few........

[Stormfury]

Light:

Vixen, Horned Owl, Solitaire, Pack Hunter

Medium:

Vapour Eagle, Conjurer, Arctic Wolf

Heavy:

Black Python, Rifleman IIC, Arcas, Burrock, Guillotine IIC, Orion IIC, Sphinx, Glass Spider

Assault:

Hellstar, BattleMaster C, BattleMaster Red Corsair, Blood Kite, Highlander IIC, Jupiter, Imp C, Bane (sometimes), Warhammer IIC, Marauder IIC.

[Skyth]

Definitely Incubus, Vapor Eagle, Black Python, and Kodiak :)

[ScottSR]

The "how do you like your second liners" got me to thinking:

Of the verious second line Clan mechs (which is to say, conventional, non-omni mechs) we know that some are better than others.  Some, like the Fire Scorpion, are quite bad.  Many are very good, like the Tundra Wolf or Stone Rhino.  The Great Wyrm is the best of all Clan mechs.

B

Perhaps silly question: what makes the great wyrm the best of all clan mechs?  Is it really powerful relative to its BV or something? 

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

It was made by the Mongooses.

Iron Mongoose is, by himself, the entirety of the official Clan Mongoose fan club.

[Guardsman]

It was made by the Mongooses.

Iron Mongoose is, by himself, the entirety of the official Clan Mongoose fan club.

Are they accepting new members?

[Deadborder]

I'd be reluctant to catagorise the Tundra Wolf as a second-line mech. Its place is in the front lines, supplemting the Omnimechs that Vlad's Wolves can no longer produce or replace.

On the other hand, if you want to class any clan Non-Omni mech as second line, then Blood Kite > all

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

Are they accepting new members?

Ask Iron Mongoose.   :P

[Fatebringer]

There are SOOO many good 2L mechs and the invasion of the IS has only improved the pool by implementing the "Lessons Learned" mentality. The following is my Short List of what I'd grab given the chance.

Light
Firelfy-C (I've taken down down multiple heavies in trials with this mech)

Medium
Vapor Eagle (Hard to mess with success, but I use a Ferro-Lamellar upgrade to this that rocks.)

Heavy
Rifleman IIC 6 (Fun with HAGs  :D )

Assault
Marauder IIC (It's not the Hellstar, but more Clans have access to it)

[Southern Coyote]

Ive used the Rabid Coyote and Grizzly both to great success.  The Grizzly is pretty tough...

[Guardsman]

I'd be reluctant to catagorise the Tundra Wolf as a second-line mech. Its place is in the front lines, supplemting the Omnimechs that Vlad's Wolves can no longer produce or replace.

On the other hand, if you want to class any clan Non-Omni mech as second line, then Blood Kite > all

Ah, the Tundra Wolf, such a marvellous 'Mech. I am certain, had the Jaguars survived, that they would have done to it what they did to the Dire Wolf.

[Col.Hengist]

Wow,this is such a hard one. There are so many 2L clan mech out there and I can't really think of any bad ones other than the great worm.My favs,in no order other than weight class are

Lights:Pirannah,vixen,jenners,locusts,commando IIc

Mediums: griffon IIc 4,Clint IIc,wyvern IIC,shad IIc 4

Heavies: matador,fire scorpion,guillotine IIc,black python,orion IIC

Assaults: Battlemaster C, highlander IIc, bane 3,phoenix hawk IIc 4,warhammer IIc,mad IIc,  Marauder II C, Bloodkite

[Alan Grant]

It was made by the Mongooses.

Iron Mongoose is, by himself, the entirety of the official Clan Mongoose fan club.

You forgot one. I've been a Mongoose fan for a long time. I'd definitely call Iron Mongoose "Fan Club President" however...

[Arkansas Warrior]

My personal favorites by weight class:
 
Light: Urbanmech IIC.  Yes, I went there.
 
Medium: Rabid Coyote
 
Heavy: Guillotine IIC
 
Assault: Imp C

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

What other mechs are like this?  Which other second liners are not just good, but so good that they are at or above the level of not just any omnis, but of the very best ones?

For Lights, the Incubus and most of the Locust IICs are as good as the omnis.

For Mediums, the Vapor Eagle, Clint IIC 2, Rabid Coyote and usually-overlooked Conjurer 4.

For Heavies, the Arcas, Arcas 2, Glass Spider (all versions), Rifleman IIC (1 and 4), Black Python, Blood Reaper, Tundra Wolf (all versions), Guillotine IIC.

For Assaults: Kodiak, Bane 3, Stone Rhino (all), Warhammer IIC, Imp C, Canis 2, Blood Kite



I'm mostly going tight by weight here. A Canis 2 is as good as a Gargoyle but not as a Dire Wolf.

Some of these mechs are good because they have an awesome configuration (like the Vapor Eagle), others because they combine a good config with a low BV (like the Glass Spider).

[E. Icaza]

Light:  Incubus
Medium:  Conjurer (although I also like the Great Wyrm a lot)
Heavy:  Guillotine IIC
Assault:  Warhammer IIC

[Fear Factory]

Urbanmech IIC.

Accept no substitutes.

[Pa Weasley]

The Supernova 3 and 4 - for when you really, really need to beat the snot out of someone at range.

[Istal_Devalis]

Sphinx, especially the Dark Age variant.  Yes, I AM going to harp on that until we get it. :D

[Marlin]

I wonder why nobody mentioned the Spirit yet?

It is hard to argue with the Incubi, but the Spirit is a total package. I would prefer it to the Hellion anyday. The Spirit is like a half sized Thunderbolt to me. Perfect.

And Incubus is one of the best of course.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The Spirit's just too much of a mishmash for me.  Lights shouldn't try to be that generalist.

[Guardsman]

The Spirit's just too much of a mishmash for me.  Lights shouldn't try to be that generalist.

I've had some fun with the Ha Otoko.

[Rainbow 6]

Meh, as long as the Ravens get to field them who cares  ;)

[ShadowRaven]

Guillotine IIC. One of the best heavy mechs ever

[Iron Mongoose]

When it comes to Clan Mongoose, Era Report Golden Age pretty much quintupled what we know about the Clan, so its as good a time as any to jump on board (I don't know how long that was out for, but no one told me, and I only recently stumbled onto it.  What the heck, guys?).  The Great Wyrm thing is generaly my little joke, since as far as I know its the only Mongoose mech, and its actualy pretty sub par, if eminantly usable.

As to the lists in general, what we're not looking for are mechs that are good.  What we're not looking for are mechs that you enjoy.

What we do want to see are mechs that, when you look at the omni kings, the mechs you've chousen are better.

The Incubus is one of my picks, so let's put it to that test.  The nearest very fast lights are either smaller like the Fire Moth, or slower like the Hellion.  The Phantom has the same speed, but it gains tonnage, and it still dosent manage to be better, unless you've got a tactical situation where you can make the brutal C work.  Even if you go to the Ice Ferret, which is still slower and much larger, you've got big gun veriants with either a PPC or ER LL, and the PPC one's got no secondaries.  I'd take the PPC Incubus over it, and the LPL model over either.  Against the Hellion, again the Incubus has the advantage in speed, and the best Hellion models tend to be geared twards more power in the middle ranges vs accurate power at range, so its a bit of a wash, but the combination of speed, accuracy and range is very compelling.  You can't easily point to a front line omni that is better, or even on par, with this second line mech.  Granted, the LPL is a big seller here, and a custom Ice Ferret or Hellion or whatever could mount its own LPL can top it, but they don't.  And even then, they'd still be slower.

Can this be said of some of the other mechs?  Is the Guillotine IIC, which is a very popular pick, better than the Night Gyr?  Or the Nova Cat?  Or the Timber Wolf?  Or is it just a good mech that's fun to use, but still overshadowed by its more powerful brothers?  People said that about the Shadow Hawk, you know.

[Guardsman]

One 'Mech I've found surprisingly useful is the Matador. Managed to take out a number of Omnis from a variety of weights using a star of them.

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

What we do want to see are mechs that, when you look at the omni kings, the mechs you've chousen are better.

Fair point on calling people out for just posting mechs they happen to like, but what you originally said was 'as good as or better', not just better.

Can this be said of some of the other mechs?  Is the Guillotine IIC, which is a very popular pick, better than the Night Gyr?  Or the Nova Cat?  Or the Timber Wolf?  Or is it just a good mech that's fun to use, but still overshadowed by its more powerful brothers?  People said that about the Shadow Hawk, you know.

Not better, but I'd put the Guillotine IIC in the same league as those mechs. Certainly in the same as the 70 tonners. It's about equal to a Nova Cat and better than a Summoner.

[E. Icaza]

When it comes to Clan Mongoose, Era Report Golden Age pretty much quintupled what we know about the Clan, so its as good a time as any to jump on board (I don't know how long that was out for, but no one told me, and I only recently stumbled onto it.  What the heck, guys?).  The Great Wyrm thing is generaly my little joke, since as far as I know its the only Mongoose mech, and its actualy pretty sub par, if eminantly usable.

My only real complaint about the Great Wyrm is that it only has 7 points of head armor, which means that a PPC, AC/10 or Clan ERLL can headshot the thing.  Then again, while you love it for the fact that it is the only known Mongoose 'Mech, I love it because of the paired UAC/2's.

[Hellraiser]

  The Great Wyrm thing is generaly my little joke, since as far as I know its the only Mongoose mech, and its actualy pretty sub par, if eminantly usable.

Are you kidding me ?
Bro, I'm pretty sure the Gooses were the original makers of the Locust-IIC.
Check out TRO3055U Project Phoenix for that info, IIRC.
Yep, I just went and pulled out PP from the bottom of the TRO stack.
Introduced by the Geese and taken from them by the Jags when they claimed their Circe enclave.


Edit.  Corrected TRO

[Hellraiser]

Then again, while you love it for the fact that it is the only known Mongoose 'Mech, I love it because of the paired UAC/2's.

I like it because it uses standard structure, engine, & armor, making it very easy to produce, just add clan tech weapons.

[Wolf Lancer 4]

Are you kidding me ?
Bro, I'm pretty sure the Gooses were the original makers of the Locust-IIC.
Check out TRO3055U Project Phoenix for that info, IIRC.
Yep, I just went and pulled out PP from the bottom of the TRO stack.
Introduced by the Geese and taken from them by the Jags when they claimed their Circe enclave.


Edit.  Corrected TRO

He is not talking about the Locust IIC.  He is talking about the Great Wyrm which was created by Clan Mongoose.


It holds a special place for me as well since I was the one that designed the Great Wyrm 2. :)

[Guardsman]

He is not talking about the Locust IIC.  He is talking about the Great Wyrm which was created by Clan Mongoose.


It holds a special place for me as well since I was the one that designed the Great Wyrm 2. :)

Did Clan Burrock create any 'Mechs? So far the only one I've found was the front line Executioner, and they only designed it. The Bears tweaked it before it went into production.

[Wolf Lancer 4]

Not sure off the top of me head.

[Hellraiser]

He is not talking about the Locust IIC.  He is talking about the Great Wyrm which was created by Clan Mongoose.

It holds a special place for me as well since I was the one that designed the Great Wyrm 2. :)

I know what he's talking about.
I'm TELLING HIM there is a SECOND mech designed by the Geese (CLAN MONGOOSE).
That would be the Locust-IIC.
Which I think is a much better machine than the Wyrm, and as such he should be even HAPPIER to have it in his stable than he already is about the Wyrm.

[Hellraiser]

Did Clan Burrock create any 'Mechs? So far the only one I've found was the front line Executioner, and they only designed it. The Bears tweaked it before it went into production.

Not sure about mechs but I do believe they created 1 or more Omnifighters.

[Wolf Lancer 4]

I know what he's talking about.
I'm TELLING HIM there is a SECOND mech designed by the Geese (CLAN MONGOOSE).
That would be the Locust-IIC.
Which I think is a much better machine than the Wyrm, and as such he should be even HAPPIER to have it in his stable than he already is about the Wyrm.

Ah it seems I misunderstood you.  I have never seen or even heard of Clan Mongoose being referred to as "geese."  When I read "geese" I thought of one of the bird Clans and thus thought you had gotten mechs mixed up.

[Hellraiser]

One Goose, Many Geese.

One Mongoose, Many Mongeese.   :D

No worries, my attempts at humor are often lacking and only recognized by me.  #P

[Iron Mongoose]

I feel like I knew about the Locust, somewhere in the back of my mind.  But even still, I don't have the over flowing love for it, in part because its a refit and not a new mech (well, sort of, since its based on the Dragon) and in part because its actualy pretty good, unlike the Wyrm, which is a hell of a lot better than people think it is, but people think its pretty damn useless (save me and Eric, who are a bit off). 

Though since the Mongeese invented the Clan tech Ultra AC and the Targeting Computer, I get to like mechs with thouse as well, which opens up some excelent possibilities.

[Hellraiser]

I like the both myself.
Sure, with not one but TWO of the weakest AC out there, the Wyrm is not optimized for the tonnage.
But, for the BV it can put a decent amount of damage down range every turn and with the lasers is no slouch up close either.
To many people use the most optimized designs and fail to see that all that optimization, while good on a tonnage basis is often painful on a BV scale.
When 90% of the games you play are balanced by BV, you start to look at where the real value is.




The Locust-IIC on the other hand, while not the best Zell mech, is one of my favorites of all time for a Non-Zell fight,  nothing can withstand the speed a massed small lasers of 3-5 of those things at once.  You litterally tear through a medium/heavy mech every turn with a pack of them.
And a big enough pack tears through a few bigger mechs.
I still remember taking a company of them (1st SLDF Regiment) against a Star Medium/Heavy star.
Turn 1, long range fire, minor armor damage to 5 Locusts.
Turn 2, the swarm hits 3 Omnis with a Lance each..... 1 Locust dies, 3 Omnis die.
Turn 3, remaining 11 Locusts eat last 2 Omnis, more Locust armor damage.
Turn 4, the "Plague" moves on to look for more omni stars.

[Wolf Lancer 4]

What do yall think of the Great Wyrm 2?

[E. Icaza]

What do yall think of the Great Wyrm 2?

 

Dunno.  What's it got and/or what book is it in?

[Wolf Lancer 4]

Its in 3060 Record Sheets Unabridged.

Its packing 3 Er Med lasers, HAG 20 with two tons of ammo, and an APGR with one ton of ammo.  The armor was also upgraded.

[E. Icaza]

Its in 3060 Record Sheets Unabridged.

Its packing 3 Er Med lasers, HAG 20 with two tons of ammo, and an APGR with one ton of ammo.  The armor was also upgraded.

I'm not that big a fan of the HAG and prefer the UAC2 version, but I'm all for upgrading the armor, especially on the Head.

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

I like it, it's a decent mid-range skirmisher. Better than the original for sure (not hard, it's a pretty terrible mech). Seems to be a Jihad-era Ghost Bear refit.

[Hellraiser]

Sounds interesting but I wonder about the overall loss of long range firepower.

The UA's hit farther out and add in the LRM10 for more damage than the Hag20 at long range

Still, sounds like a solid upgrade.

Is it still SFE, SA, SIS ?

[Dread Moores]

I'm a fan of the pretty much all the Cygnus variants. Then again, I'm weird as I like HAGs. :) With the rise of air assets in the last batch of games I played, I see enough value for them to stand apart from LRMs.

I always had success with the Ursus as well.

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

Sounds interesting but I wonder about the overall loss of long range firepower.

The UA's hit farther out and add in the LRM10 for more damage than the Hag20 at long range

The Great Wyrm 2 has a tiny bit more max potential damage. The Great Wyrm can do 18 max (2+2+2+2+10). It all probably averages out about the same due to the HAG cluster penalty for long-range shooting.

Is it still SFE, SA, SIS ?

Ferro armor now.

[Hellraiser]

The Great Wyrm 2 has a tiny bit more max potential damage. The Great Wyrm can do 18 max (2+2+2+2+10). It all probably averages out about the same due to the HAG cluster penalty for long-range shooting.

I was gonna say, yeah, at 17+ the HAG reduction means it can't do that full 20 IIRC so would be less over all damage.

[Wolf Lancer 4]

Overall the Great Wyrm 2 has a maximum damage potential of 2 more than the original Great Wyrm.

When we were tasked with making the variants we were told to use the new TW weapons.  As such I used the HAG and the APGR.

As for comparing the two weapons...

The HAG does less damage at range yes but more at short range.  It also explodes but it does not jam.

The UAC also has to have both shots hit for it to do its max damage.  It also jams but doesnt explode.

To me its personal preference on the weapon systems.  As well as 6 in one hand half a dozen in the other.

My two cents anyway.

[Johnny 'NKH' Leyland]

The UAC also has to have both shots hit for it to do its max damage.  It also jams but doesnt explode.

The UAC/2 won't explode but the ammo bin can!

[Wolf Lancer 4]

I knew that!  I uh....was....testing you.  Yeah thats right.  You passed!

You win a cookie.

[Hellraiser]

As for comparing the two weapons...

The HAG does less damage at range yes but more at short range.  It also explodes but it does not jam.

There is also the Gain AAA & AI, but Lose IDF.
Very similar over all but just a hint of different flavoring.
It works IMHO : )

[Daishi411]

can anyone tell me what clans get to use the predator 2?

[ShockaTime]

can anyone tell me what clans get to use the predator 2?

according to a Milspec on Battlecorp, the only example of the Predator 2 that they have seen is in the hands of the Diamond Sharks, although it's hard to say where it would be found in the homeworlds, if at all.

[Daishi411]

according to a Milspec on Battlecorp, the only example of the Predator 2 that they have seen is in the hands of the Diamond Sharks, although it's hard to say where it would be found in the homeworlds, if at all.

should've thought to check there, going there now, thanks

[Hawkeye Jim]

Not sure about mechs but I do believe they created 1 or more Omnifighters.

Burrock designed the Turk.

[Coyote_808]

Light 'Mech
Incubus of all walks.  Extremely quick, packs a huge punch for its size, and it's hard to argue with either for me.

Medium 'Mech
Rabid Coyote.  Period.  It's practically the yard stick of measure for most of us Coyote players when it comes to a Medium 'Mech, not because it is our own 'Mech design, but because it does its job so well of pummeling things into slag.

Heavy 'Mech
Guillotine IIC simply because it packs a huge amount of firepower with its ER PPC, twin Large Pulse, and for giggles I can toss in the SRM 6 rack.  Not to mention, it even has a pair of ER Mediums just because of how ubiquitous it is.

Assault 'Mech
Highlander IIC because it is the yard stick to which pretty much every other Clan Secondline (and even frontline) assaults are measured.  The Blood Kite is to the Highlander IIC like a metre is to a yard.  It's got that little bit more, but it's not something I would personally use.  ;)

As an aside, the plural to Mongoose is Mongooses.

[Reaver]

Conjurer, Vapor Eagle and Grizzly are my favorites.  They're really, really good machines that take advantage of Clan weight reductions.

[ShockaTime]

Highlander IIC, Grizzly, Incubus, Vapor Eagle, and most of all the Blood Kite (although this is still more of a front line unit) are all fantastic machines. I also really like the Great Wyrm as it is a Mongoose mech.

[Diablo48]

While there are tons of great second line machines, the three that stand out the most to me are the Solitaire, Kodiak, and Hellstar.  The Solitaire is heavily armed enough to seriously threaten even assault 'Mechs thanks to the HLL, fast enough to dictate the terms of engagement against just about anything, and durable enough to take the few hits that do connect.  The Kodiak is more specialized which can severely limit its options, but in its element it is nearly unbeatable which is why it earns a place for me.  The Hellstar really does not need explanation with good speed, great armor, 4 ERPPCs, and the DHS to use them.