Clan Warships - Who mans them?

[Southern Coyote]

Alright, so we have an Aerospace phenotype for fighters, and I imagine Jumpships are handled primarily by Freebirths/Merchants.  I also know that solahma elementals and the like will serve in a marine capacity aboard ships.  But who pilots the darned things?  I mean, who captains Warships specifically? 

IIRC, I read somewhere once that one of the clans (Cobra or Raven, can't remember) had a special phenotype for Warship/Jumpship captains and crew, but I could be mistaken.  So, help enlighten me, please?

Thanks in advance.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Based on my current reading, it would appear that most warship crewman are from the technician caste, officered by trueborns, mostly from the aerospace phenotype.

[Daishi411]

the ravens are the guys that have the naval phenotype, and its supposed to bring out intelligence and reflexes as its important traits as far as the rpg goes i think.

[Stormfury]

The Ravens have the Naval phenotype, which they use for the combat roles aboard vessels intended for such duties.

In other Clans, AeroSpace Fighter phenotypes who test into higher positions are assigned to command roles on board WarShips and DropShips. This effectively dead-ends their career, as WarShip-on-WarShip fights are rare even for the Clans.

Otherwise, any combat role on board- gunners, bridge crew, etc.- will be filled by a Warrior.

Technical and engineering duties are for the Technician caste.

Miscellaneous crew will be sourced from the Labourer caste.

Instrument work and so on may be handled by a Scientist, Technician, or Warrior... seems like a role that could overlap a bit.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Seems liike a place you might stick test-downs.  Sorry Joe, you didn't get a kill in your trial of position, but you gave a good effort, so we're going to give you a slot on a Warship gun crew."

[Hawkeye Jim]

With as many warships as the Clans have, you would think more time would have been spent designing crew phenotypes for them. Failed members of the type could be assigned to jumpships.

[Jaim Magnus]

Most Clans don't really use their warships though, so why bother making a specific phenotype for them?  Only the Snow Ravens do so, and most other Clans seem content to take a few members of the Naval phenotype abtakha now and then for the expertise (I'm looking at you Star Adders).

[Alan Grant]

In a game I played once, the warship captain (Star Commodore) was an older ASF pilot. His reflexes no longer up to the task of flying fighters (with so much competition from the younger fighter jocks), he made the transition to warships and genuinely enjoyed having so much firepower under his fingertips. He didn't view it as a failure at all and was hoping to make Star Admiral some day.

By that point in his life, he had already earned a bloodname and had a successful career as a pilot. As long as he stayed competent and in the Khan's good graces, he figured he could stay at the helm of that warship for years and relished being able to "settle down" a little, with less competition among the "fresh-out-of-the-sibko" warriors who weren't constantly challenging him for his command, while at the same time spending his evenings having dinner with his senior officers while they regaled each other in fighter pilot "glory days" stories.

It was an interesting character that this player created, and I thought it represented the best of a Clan Warship Captain. A man who viewed it as a natural next-stage in his life and genuinely enjoyed it.

[Arkansas Warrior]

With as many warships as the Clans have, you would think more time would have been spent designing crew phenotypes for them. Failed members of the type could be assigned to jumpships.

DropShips too.

[Southern Coyote]

That's what I was thinking. 

And since we're on the subject, why do the Clans even bother with warships if most of the clans don't use them?

[Alan Grant]

Would you want to be the Clan that doesn't have a warship fleet, when the others do?

Besides, the more we learn about Clan history, the more we learn that the idea that they never use their warships is somewhat of a myth. Even if ALL Clans aren't using them ALL the time, at any given period of Clan history at least one Clan is. Often it's more than one.

For example, until Era Digest: Golden Century, we didn't know there was a massive naval battle during the Mongoose Absorption. The biggest ever fought in fact, and we had no idea.

Operation Klondike revealed the details of warship involved in that era. That is when the Clan Warship fleets first appeared, and they've been maintained ever since.

They get used, just not as much as ground forces. And Trial rules have often worked in favor of preserving their fleets and minimizing the conflicts. They set the thing they are fighting over, and two warship captains decide that the victor will be the one who does a certain level of damage (or achieve some other pre-set objective). So they can fight, without outright destruction, and then declare the winner. Then both warships are pulled back and repaired.

[Jackmc]

Despite much protest, the Naval Phenotype has been RetConned out of the game as part of a certain PTB's on-going hate-on vs Warships. 

[Ok, I spoke harshly.  I was passionately disappointed with the developer's solution when ordered to make canonical Warship levels match those of Clickytech.  Regardless of how I feel about how he handled the order, it was an order.    -Jackmc]

ATOW allows for civvie clanners of the tech and labor caste to recieve Basic Naval Training as well as Ship's Crew training.  The latter is telling as it's the military equivalent of the Merchant Marine field.

-Jackmc

[Alan Grant]

Despite much protest, the Naval Phenotype has been RetConned out of the game as part of a certain PTB's on-going hate-on vs Warships. 

-Jackmc

Wait...what?    :o

[Jackmc]

Wait...what?    :o

The Naval phenotype is no more, you use the ASF pheno in its place.

-Jackmc

[Jaim Magnus]

Despite much protest, the Naval Phenotype has been RetConned out of the game as part of a certain PTB's on-going hate-on vs Warships. 

-Jackmc

First I've heard of this.

[Jackmc]

First I've heard of this.

It was heavily discussed during the beta, but for confirmation, look at the phenotype table on ATOW p. 122.  Your choices are: Normal Human, Elemental, MechWarrior, or Aerospace.

-Jackmc

[Hellraiser]

In other Clans, AeroSpace Fighter phenotypes who test into higher positions are assigned to command roles on board WarShips and DropShips. This effectively dead-ends their career, as WarShip-on-WarShip fights are rare even for the Clans.

Otherwise, any combat role on board- gunners, bridge crew, etc.- will be filled by a Warrior.

Technical and engineering duties are for the Technician caste.

Miscellaneous crew will be sourced from the Labourer caste.

Instrument work and so on may be handled by a Scientist, Technician, or Warrior... seems like a role that could overlap a bit.

1.  Do you have any quotes regarding a dead end carrear or those slots by caste?
I don't see being a Star Admiral as being a dead end, and as far as I've ever read the crew is technician caste, period.

[Hellraiser]

It was heavily discussed during the beta, but for confirmation, look at the phenotype table on ATOW p. 122.  Your choices are: Normal Human, Elemental, MechWarrior, or Aerospace.

-Jackmc

Was there ever a Naval Phenotype in the RPG though ?
I always read it as a variant of the Aero type and never saw it anywhere but the Snow Ravens entry of the FM:WC

[Jackmc]

and as far as I've ever read the crew is technician caste, period.

I've already sourced the general crew makeup from ATOW (p. 62 at the very end of the Clan Apprenticeship life module under the "NOTES" subsection); it's technician and labor caste.

-Jackmc

[Arkansas Warrior]

1.  Do you have any quotes regarding a dead end carrear or those slots by caste?
I don't see being a Star Admiral as being a dead end, and as far as I've ever read the crew is technician caste, period.

I don't think the Clans like any non-warriors firing weapons, period.  I'd assume that at least the gun crews are warriors.  ISTR readinbg somewhere that there was a tendency towards elemental helmsmen.  Something to do with the negative-feedback system on the 'wheel', and it taking someone who had some incredible strength to put a ship through comparatively sharp turns.

[Jackmc]

Was there ever a Naval Phenotype in the RPG though ?

Yes, it was from A MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans.

-Jackmc

[Jackmc]

I don't think the Clans like any non-warriors firing weapons, period.  I'd assume that at least the gun crews are warriors.

Everyone would be a warrior.  Clan sailors receive the Basic Training (Naval) and Ship's Crew career fields both of which specifically teach combat skills (both personal and ship-based).

-Jackmc

[Hellraiser]

I don't think the Clans like any non-warriors firing weapons, period.  I'd assume that at least the gun crews are warriors.  ISTR readinbg somewhere that there was a tendency towards elemental helmsmen.  Something to do with the negative-feedback system on the 'wheel', and it taking someone who had some incredible strength to put a ship through comparatively sharp turns.

In a 20th century era of fly by wire technology I find the idea of an elemental helmsman using strength to move the ship in the 30th century to be hilarious.
Ive heard of test downs going to marine crews but that's it.
It would be interesting to read up on this quote for sure.

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think it was something to do with feedback so that you knew you were stressing the ship.  After all, maneuvering too quick can damage the ship.  Even so, a strong and experienced helmsman could overcome the resistance and stress the ship to its limits.  Or, that was the idea.  I want to say it was in the Twilight of the Clans series, I'll have to see if I can find it.

[Jackmc]

I think it was something to do with feedback so that you knew you were stressing the ship.  After all, maneuvering too quick can damage the ship.  Even so, a strong and experienced helmsman could overcome the resistance and stress the ship to its limits.  Or, that was the idea.  I want to say it was in the Twilight of the Clans series, I'll have to see if I can find it.

It was and it was a "LOLWhut" moment when I read it.  Force feedback is fine, but force feedback that is so stiff that it cost extra precious seconds to use or robs a ship of its full manuverability is beyond criminally stupid, especially when the controls are digital "fly-by-wire" controls on a spaceship rather than mechanical linkages on a terrestrial vessel.

-Jackmc 

[Arkansas Warrior]

I think I found it.  in the BC download version of The Hunters, it's p.214-215.  It doesn't actually mention using elementals, that may have just been something I thought up when I read it.  But it does describe the artificial resistance more or less how I was remembering.  The pdf isn't letting me cpopy & paste, and I'm not going to copy two paragraphs by hand, but y'all can look it up if you've got it.

[Hawkeye Jim]

According to the FM:Crusaders, warship battles do occur. The Ice Hellions lost two warhips during their IS campaign against the Horses.

[Hawkeye Jim]

I'm inclined to think the warrior types might prefer a dropship posting to a warship one. Dropships see a lot more combat.

[Alan Grant]

I'm inclined to think the warrior types might prefer a dropship posting to a warship one. Dropships see a lot more combat.

Depends on the dropship. Troop Transport? No, Combat dropper? Sure. Something like a Noruff could be an assignment to be proud of.

I think the best summary of Clan attitudes towards warships can be found in both Field Manuals in their aerospace sections. For example on FM: CC, page 8.

"The Clan take great pride in their Warships. Nowhere else is so much raw military might concentrated in a single war machine. Though the nature of Warship combat makes it difficult for individual warriors to distinguish themselves, such fighting remains the calling of a specialized few."

[Stormfury]

1.  Do you have any quotes regarding a dead end carrear or those slots by caste?

Those who hold Galaxy command (or WarShip command) are the least likely to see combat. That rank is a mixed blessing; you're high in the command echelon, but your chances to add to your name are limited at best. If you have aspirations for a Khanship, Galaxy or naval command is pretty much the last place you want to be, as Star Colonels see more action, engage more with the troops, and are in general more likely to be elected to the Khanship.

For slots by caste, we know the military roles on ships are filled by warriors (The Hunters, Sword and Fire, Shadows of War, Endgame) and the repair/maintenance jobs are done by technicians (Exodus Road, etc).

In the second book of the Jade Falcon trilogy, Joanna's Broadsword is attacked and some crew are lost. Rather than giving their gunnery duties to other crew members, the Warrior caste on board are expected to take up the job.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Anyone trained as a mechwarrior or aerowarrior should know gunnery. It's probably not too much different no matter where the weapon is.

[Nibs]

Those who hold Galaxy command (or WarShip command) are the least likely to see combat. That rank is a mixed blessing; you're high in the command echelon, but your chances to add to your name are limited at best. If you have aspirations for a Khanship, Galaxy or naval command is pretty much the last place you want to be, as Star Colonels see more action, engage more with the troops, and are in general more likely to be elected to the Khanship.

For slots by caste, we know the military roles on ships are filled by warriors (The Hunters, Sword and Fire, Shadows of War, Endgame) and the repair/maintenance jobs are done by technicians (Exodus Road, etc).

In the second book of the Jade Falcon trilogy, Joanna's Broadsword is attacked and some crew are lost. Rather than giving their gunnery duties to other crew members, the Warrior caste on board are expected to take up the job.

The Snow Ravens elect only Galaxy Commanders and Star Admirals to Khanships, I believe, so there is a bit of a difference there.

As for the Twilight of the Clans series, it didn't really demonstrate much for warriors on the Ships beyond marines or the command position (or positions, if there is an XO)

[Jackmc]

Anyone trained as a mechwarrior or aerowarrior should know gunnery. It's probably not too much different no matter where the weapon is.

Actually the rules don't allow cross useage which sort of makes sense since a Naval Gunner takes his shot with no helm control where as a MW as a MW does and a ASFjock also does but has the advantage of multi-g thrusters to slew weapons around.  Where the distinction breaks down is with Dropships where you can have ASF-like acceleration and the DS pilot handling the guns.

-Jackmc

[Stormfury]

Yes, it was from A MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans.

Actually, there wasn't, game-wise. They maintain a seperate breeding program, but mechanically they were just an ASF variant, more akin to the Horses and Bears' Advanced Elemental track than a distinct phenotype.

It seems to me more like they just folded them in together and called it a day than anything else.

The Snow Ravens elect only Galaxy Commanders and Star Admirals to Khanships, I believe, so there is a bit of a difference there.

By tradition, yes. On the other hand, the Khan is essentially establishing their own line of succession as they appoint warriors to those positions and award the Order of the Raven. Plus they have a focus on ASF and naval warfare and a love affair with the associated phenotypes; in general, however, most of the Khans we know of were Star Colonels before being voted into that position.

As for the Twilight of the Clans series, it didn't really demonstrate much for warriors on the Ships beyond marines or the command position (or positions, if there is an XO)

We know that anyone who handled a martial role was a Warrior and anyone doing equipment maintenance was a Technician, and that Warriors made up the command staff.

Unsurprising, as even nominally civillian vessels have the same setup with regards to the warrior contingent.

[Jackmc]

Actually, there wasn't, game-wise. They maintain a seperate breeding program, but mechanically they were just an ASF variant, more akin to the Horses and Bears' Advanced Elemental track than a distinct phenotype.

Incorrect

The attribute thresholds for Naval bloodline characters - which replace those of the Fighter Pilot Phenotype - are...

Also

TOUR OF DUTY: SNOW RAVEN NAVAL OFFICER 
Clan Snow Raven affiliation only. Fighter Pilot or Naval Phenotype required.  ...

-Jackmc

[Stormfury]

... which is what I said. Mechanically and for lifestyle paths, they were an ASF variant rather than a distinct and different phenotype. In the interests of simplicity, they got folded in. Further supplements might change that, but the Naval phenotype is hardly a major part of the game.

[Jackmc]

... which is what I said. Mechanically and for lifestyle paths, they were an ASF variant rather than a distinct and different phenotype.

By that logic, the MechWarrior, Elemental and ASF phenotypes are all just variants of the Normal Human pheno rather than distinct and different phenos.

-Jackmc

[Stormfury]

Fighter pilots got STR-1, BOD -1, DEX +2, RFL +2 with the Glass Jaw and G-Tolerance traits.

The Naval Pilot phenotype get INT +1, DEX +2, RFL+1, STR-1, BOD-1 with the Glass Jaw and G-Tolerance traits.

The difference between the two is one point of Intelligence and one point of Reflexes, plus or minus a Life Path.

MechWarriors, Elementals, and ASF types, on the other hand, differ enough from the human norm to worthwhile.

This is for one phenotype, for one of the sixteen or seventeen Clans, of one of the thirty or so factions a character can come from. For the sake of brevity, folding them in with the standard ASF phenotype does not really strike me as that big a deal.

With regards to WarShips in general, they are rather like introducing chainsaws to a game of Scissors-Paper-Rock with the rule that chainsaws beat everything and you can use it to cut off your opponent's hands.

If there are too many WarShips around, every other combat branch- and BT is really about 'Mechs- become useless. It is recognition of that fact, rather than WOMG WE HATE TEH WRASHIPZ! driving their marginalisation. And, if nothing else, they go out swinging.

Kinda sucks to be the Ravens, but they are not one of the premier Clans, let alone factions. When AToW gets more supplements, they might get something then.

[Kit deSummersville]

Yes, it was from A MechWarrior's Guide to the Clans.

-Jackmc

That sounds like a supplement to the RPG. Do you think that there won't be any for AToW?

[Kit deSummersville]

And since we're on the subject, why do the Clans even bother with warships if most of the clans don't use them?

After what happened to the Jaguars, no one wants to risk them for mundane battles. Like the fine china, they just get brought out for special occasions.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Yeah, do you want to be the Star Colonel that has to tell the Khan you lost a WarShip?  No thanks, I'll bid it away in all but the most dire circumstances.  After all, if you win with a WarShip, the aero arm gets more credit, because it will tend to overshadow ground forces.  Most commanders aren't naval guys, and they would want their own arm to be the 'arm of decision'.

[Jaim Magnus]

Call me crazy but I see the uses of ALL the branches.  WarShips have their uses, but so does the ground arm.  Even with multiple fleets of warships, we'd still need mechs.  Warships are only good for leveling planets.  You want to take a world (reasonably) intact, then you need mechs and infantry.  My two cents.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Warships are mostly useful for deciding who gets in or out of the system. With the exception of the WoB, most everyone else tends to keep them away from planets.

[Coyote_808]

Warships are mostly useful for deciding who gets in or out of the system. With the exception of the WoB, most everyone else tends to keep them away from planets.

I agree with Jim here.  Warships tend to be the bouncer to the bar.  You want in, you gotta be in the good with the bouncer.  If not, then you better be in for one hell of a battle.

[Diablo48]

Warships are mostly useful for deciding who gets in or out of the system. With the exception of the WoB, most everyone else tends to keep them away from planets.

I agree with Jim here.  Warships tend to be the bouncer to the bar.  You want in, you gotta be in the good with the bouncer.  If not, then you better be in for one hell of a battle.

I fully agree with this.  If Clan Snow Raven decides they really do not want you to get into a system there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.  Even with Clan honor, the ability to effectively refuse to allow a trial to happen is extremely valuable and was probably used when the Ravens felt the situation called for it.

[Fatebringer]

I've looked thru aToW and from what I see, if you want to work on a Warship, the "Base" Phenotype is Aerospace, then you adapt to either "Aerospace or ProtoMech" for ASF pilots, or to "Aerospace-Naval"  by using the Caste module that costs no points to select. This is where you gain the extra INT that the Naval Phenotype is known for.

I love that you get the "Compulsion/Arrogance" with the module. With that, you KNOW they don't feel that they've been downgraded. Perhaps that's just for us Ravens though ;)

In regards to Warships Command, anyone who holds an upper rank has expereince coordinating multiple units and could make a claim that commanding a Warship Crew is no different. I think for most Clans they give the most prestigous Bloodlines first crack at the position instead of any particular phenotype, but if they don't have the skill, then they get replaced. I liken this to the great knights and lords taking a crack at pulling out excalibur before Arthur got his shot ;)

Despite the Ravens having two dedicated, exclusive Bloodnames for Naval, not all the commanders we have are of those Bloodlines. Those that do not make Star Commodore or Admiral are probably still trying to prove themselves. We only have so many ships and I would assume the second best thing they could hope for is a good fighter group command from the deck of an assault dropship. ;)

Tactical Air Command Wings attached to Raven vessels can range from 10 fighters to more then 75 plus Dropships. The position of being the TAC Wing Commodore is still a good title. James McKenna was the Wing Commander aboard the Mountbatten and see how he turned out ;)

[Jackmc]

That sounds like a supplement to the RPG. Do you think that there won't be any for AToW?

Based n Herb's comments during the Beta where he said it was gone, yes.  I guess it could be argued that Herb was intentionally misdirecting, but based on past performance if Herb doesn't want to give details, he gives the standard answer, he doesn't lie about it.

-Jackmc

[Hellraiser]

I fully agree with this.  If Clan Snow Raven decides they really do not want you to get into a system there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.  Even with Clan honor, the ability to effectively refuse to allow a trial to happen is extremely valuable and was probably used when the Ravens felt the situation called for it.

Well I wouldn't say NOTHING you can do about it.
Space is a very very large place.
There is always room to maneuver around outside of the range of warships.
That said, yes, what you can do is make it VERY difficult to get a complete force to a planet that stays together.
Instead of say, a force with 40%+ losses in transit and scattered all over the planet is small clumps.  Which is what you get when forced to deal w/ a blockading fleet.

[Hellraiser]

Those who hold Galaxy command (or WarShip command) are the least likely to see combat. That rank is a mixed blessing; you're high in the command echelon, but your chances to add to your name are limited at best. If you have aspirations for a Khanship, Galaxy or naval command is pretty much the last place you want to be, as Star Colonels see more action, engage more with the troops, and are in general more likely to be elected to the Khanship. 

So, that is your opinion then, and not a stated canon fact from a sourcebook.
A Galaxy Commander can bid himself into action any time he wants.
For that matter a Galaxy Commander has more authority to START said action and not be considered out of line for picking a fight w/ the clan next door.

For slots by caste, we know the military roles on ships are filled by warriors (The Hunters, Sword and Fire, Shadows of War, Endgame) and the repair/maintenance jobs are done by technicians (Exodus Road, etc).

We know that command & marine positions are filled w/ Warriors and that the Marines are often testdowns.
So again, do you have something that says all gunnery positions are filled by Warriors?

In the second book of the Jade Falcon trilogy, Joanna's Broadsword is attacked and some crew are lost. Rather than giving their gunnery duties to other crew members, the Warrior caste on board are expected to take up the job.

So, all the gunners were lost so her Mechwarriors were the only ones that can shoot....... or...... There were so many losses that everyone w/ naval training was keeping the ship in the air and Joanna had her Mechwarriors shoot because that was the only way they might contribute.
Having a little context to the situation would help...as well as knowing exactly what she said.

By tradition, yes. On the other hand, the Khan is essentially establishing their own line of succession as they appoint warriors to those positions and award the Order of the Raven. Plus they have a focus on ASF and naval warfare and a love affair with the associated phenotypes; in general, however, most of the Khans we know of were Star Colonels before being voted into that position.

Could that be because there are more Star Colonels than Galaxy Commanders ?
And not because Star Colonel is a more direct path ?

Unsurprising, as even nominally civillian vessels have the same setup with regards to the warrior contingent.

So Merchant Caste Mammoths assigned to bulk food transfer to inhospitable planets also have Warriors assigned to man those few laser bays ?

[ColonelCody]

So Merchant Caste Mammoths assigned to bulk food transfer to inhospitable planets also have Warriors assigned to man those few laser bays ?

Why not? In the 1st and 2nd World Wars the US and British navies both used military personnel to man the weapons on the various merchant transports they were using.  The Liberty ships are especially noted for having split crews, as it was considered a really crappy assignment for a naval seaman to be put on a liberty ship as a gunner or radioman.

[ColBosch]

Based n Herb's comments during the Beta where he said it was gone, yes.  I guess it could be argued that Herb was intentionally misdirecting, but based on past performance if Herb doesn't want to give details, he gives the standard answer, he doesn't lie about it.

But it's not gone; it's just treated as a variant of the Aerospace phenotype - as it should be, given that it's only a handful of generations old and appears among just one Clan. There's more on the Naval phenotype than there is on the Manei Domini in AToW...

[Jackmc]

But it's not gone; it's just treated as a variant of the Aerospace phenotype

The pheotype is gone, that's inarguable.  Granted you can still make a "Naval Caste" character, BUT as there is no pheno prerequ. it isn't the same thing.

- as it should be, given that it's only a handful of generations old and appears among just one Clan.

By that logic, we shouldn't have a Seeker life module then.

There's more on the Naval phenotype than there is on the Manei Domini in AToW...

Which makes sense since when the info on MD was released, it was specifically said that they were not intended to be PC's (JHS:3072 p. 119).


-Jackmc

[Frabby]

I think it was something to do with feedback so that you knew you were stressing the ship.  After all, maneuvering too quick can damage the ship.  Even so, a strong and experienced helmsman could overcome the resistance and stress the ship to its limits.  Or, that was the idea.  I want to say it was in the Twilight of the Clans series, I'll have to see if I can find it.

Having read the quoted section in "The Hunted", there seem to be two possible answers:

1) The artificial resistance put up by the helm controls is a slight pressure to indicate to the helmsman that he's moving towards dangerous maneuvering, but doesn't physically resist by any significant force, or

2) the "artificial" resistance is actually the g-force produced by turning the ship. Depending on your position on a 700-meter starship, the artificial gravity you're put through depends on your distance from the center of the ship's mass and the point around which it is being turned. You're effectively looking at a centrifuge with an arm length of (up to) 700 meters. Anything's possible from effectively zero centrifugal force in the mass center up to possibly lethal force of dozends of g's at a given point 700 meters away.

[Arkansas Warrior]

The pheotype is gone, that's inarguable.  Granted you can still make a "Naval Caste" character, BUT as there is no pheno prerequ. it isn't the same thing.


By that logic, we shouldn't have a Seeker life module then.


Which makes sense since when the info on MD was released, it was specifically said that they were not intended to be PC's (JHS:3072 p. 119).


-Jackmc

Considering ColBosch's status as a member of the PtB, I wouldn't discount what he's saying so quickly.

[Kit deSummersville]

Considering ColBosch's status as a member of the PtB, I wouldn't discount what he's saying so quickly.

He's a Probie, though.  }:)

[Stormfury]

So, that is your opinion then, and not a stated canon fact from a sourcebook.

It fits the canon facts from various sourcebooks and novels.

A Galaxy Commander can bid himself into action any time he wants.

In theory, yes. In practice, we only ever see them do so during situations where more than one Cluster is present and some-one needs to keep everyone pointed in the same direction.

For that matter a Galaxy Commander has more authority to START said action and not be considered out of line for picking a fight w/ the clan next door.

As can a Star Colonel, established over multiple novels.

So again, do you have something that says all gunnery positions are filled by Warriors?

Aside from the fact that the Clans (aside from the Blood Spirits) outright refuse to allow non-Warriors to use any kind of weapon?

So, all the gunners were lost so her Mechwarriors were the only ones that can shoot....... or...... There were so many losses that everyone w/ naval training was keeping the ship in the air and Joanna had her Mechwarriors shoot because that was the only way they might contribute.
Having a little context to the situation would help...as well as knowing exactly what she said.

The situation was as I presented it. That was the context.

Could that be because there are more Star Colonels than Galaxy Commanders ?
And not because Star Colonel is a more direct path ?

Or it could be because of what I have already said, and because Galaxy Commanders are typically from the same generation as the Khans and the Clans have this Thing about age.

So Merchant Caste Mammoths assigned to bulk food transfer to inhospitable planets also have Warriors assigned to man those few laser bays ?

Yes. Books like Invading Clans, the Wolf and Jade Falcon sourcebooks, and others all state that due to issues in the past where civilian vessels attempted to take advantage of the autonomy they were offered to leave the Clan or cause other sorts of trouble, a Warrior contingent was permanently assigned to them.

Having read the quoted section in "The Hunted", there seem to be two possible answers:

1) The artificial resistance put up by the helm controls is a slight pressure to indicate to the helmsman that he's moving towards dangerous maneuvering, but doesn't physically resist by any significant force, or

2) the "artificial" resistance is actually the g-force produced by turning the ship. Depending on your position on a 700-meter starship, the artificial gravity you're put through depends on your distance from the center of the ship's mass and the point around which it is being turned. You're effectively looking at a centrifuge with an arm length of (up to) 700 meters. Anything's possible from effectively zero centrifugal force in the mass center up to possibly lethal force of dozends of g's at a given point 700 meters away.

No, the control yoke resists incrementally depending on the speed and angle of vector changes. They found that people would press the wrong buttons, and it is implied that a regular control yoke without resistance would subject WarShips to even greater maneuvering stresses.

[Fatebringer]

Herb's Standard Answer #1: If it works for your game table, the answer you seek is whatever you wish it to be.

People will see things as they want to. For the purpsose of the game I'm in, I'll continue to RP the Naval phenotype. To me, the Phenotype Aerospace = Aerospace, not Aerospace Fighter Pilot.

"Wow, that is a nice shade of burgundy!"

"It's RED!"

[Fatebringer]

A large part of Warship combat is pulling levers and pushing buttons on automated systems. As long as the orders come from the bridge, I'll let the technicians do their thing :P

[notworthy]  [whipit]

In regards to that "No Weapons" comment, you mean to tell me they don't let the Paramilitary pack arms? I'm just sayin, 90 warriors to defend a city, (1 Nova Trinary) aren't looking to police some thousands of workers. You give the tools to the people that need them. ;)

[Stormfury]

The Paramilitary and Police are a (reviled) Warrior sub-Caste, however.

[Jackmc]

Considering ColBosch's status as a member of the PtB, I wouldn't discount what he's saying so quickly.

With respect to Bosch, he'd not one of the TPTB which are developers ie Herb and Randall and possibly Welsh, though again no disrepect to Joel, but even that's questionable.


-Jackmc

[Hawkeye Jim]

As far as letting technicians handle weapons, how many techs are failed warriors sent down? Wouldn't they be capable of handling warship guns?

[Stormfury]

Everyone is capable of it. Would they be allowed to, though?

The Clans (again, aside from the Blood Spirits) are quite rigid about caste duties. Warriors fight. Technicians do not fight. Merchants do not fight.

Even the members of the Clan equivalent to the Police are Warriors.

[Arkansas Warrior]

As far as letting technicians handle weapons, how many techs are failed warriors sent down? Wouldn't they be capable of handling warship guns?

Capable yes.  But the warriors have cultural issues with letting civilians do the shooting.  Hell, during Klondike the 40 from each Clan had issues letting their auxiliaries do anything but occupy territory.

[Hawkeye Jim]

But are technicians civilians? If they are attached to a military unit as part of that unit, they're military, not civilian.

[Alan Grant]

We know the Clans attach lower castes to warriors. For example on Tukayyid, lower caste combat engineers or the equivilant of were used (I think by the Jade Falcons). I have always wondered if those personnel carried small arms and could defend themselves.

Also the Snow Ravens use R-Teams to collect salvage, consisting of a mix of mechs/elementals and techs. The technicians are armed and can defend themselves. They are put directly in harm's way.

Ultimately though on the question of warship guns, we just don't know. I've heard the theories that gun crews are led by warriors, or consist of warriors, on these forums for at least a couple years. However I don't know if that is based on anything but player/community opinion. There is no canon literature evidence that I am aware of. So I have always taken that information with a degree of natural skepticism.

The Clans didn't seem to have any trouble with auxillaries or lower castemen firing the guns during Operation Klondike. The only "Clan Warriors" present commanded the warships from the bridge.

[ColBosch]

With respect to Bosch, he'd not one of the TPTB which are developers ie Herb and Randall and possibly Welsh, though again no disrepect to Joel, but even that's questionable.

This is correct. I may be doing some writing, editing, and handling the errata, but I am not a developer. Even if I was, this is General Discussion and my comments shouldn't be taken as carved-in-stone canon (though it'd be nice once in a while ;D ). Ultimately, if you want the final answer on this question, I suggest asking in Masters of the Universe.

[Fatebringer]

There's an App Thread for that.  :D

[HABeas2]

Hello,

With respect to Bosch, he'd not one of the TPTB which are developers ie Herb and Randall and possibly Welsh, though again no disrepect to Joel, but even that's questionable.

For clarification, the line developers for the BattleTech Game Line are as follows:
   Herbert A. Beas II - Line Developer
   Ben H. Rome - Assistant Line Developer

Joel Bancroft-Connors (AKA Welshman) was a Product Developer for TRO: 3085 and its PDF-exclusive Supplemental. A Product Developer is, as the title suggests, responsible only for a selected product.

Randall N. Bills is the Managing Developer for Catalyst Game Labs, and while that qualifies him for a higher rank over Line Developers, BattleTech is not his sole development focus.

Hopefully this helps clarify matters. You may now continue your discussion.

Thank you,

- Herbert Beas
  BattleTech
  Catalyst Game Labs

[Jackmc]

Ah, I totally forgot about Ben.  Thanks for the clarification Herb.

-Jackmc

[Kit deSummersville]

Of course, the Blood Spirits regularly give all their sub castes weapons and they all have some rudimentary combat training.

[Stormfury]

And that is something that sets them apart. It's also something they only did because they belived there was no other way to protect what they had left.

[Jackmc]

I think we're getting overly hung up on semantics.  From a techncial standpoint are Clan ship crews techs and laborors?  Yes.  From a cultural standpoint are they warriors?  Yes.  They recieve military-specific training which in Clan society is the exclsuive purview of the Warrior caste.

At the same time, in the majority of Clans, they are warriors that couldn't test into a "real" military profession so they are porbably in the same boat as the police and justice system warriors  ie.  one very short step from Solohama.  Still as things go, in the hell that would be real life Clan society, it's probably one of the nicer ways to live. 

-Jackmc