Canon Clan BA?

[St.George]

During last sundays game,a question arose from the clan faction section of the game table,,,"What Eley BA is available to the clans up to the post-jihad era?"Now we know of the standard Eley BA config's and some of the BA that was in the Clan FM's,but we hear theres been more coming out of clan space,so we are tryin to come up with a list of all suits.Thanks for any and all help.   ;D

[Stormfury]

I think you may have to be more specific.

'56: Gnome (Hell's Horses)
'58: Salamander (Fire Mandrill)
'59: Undine (Goliath Scorpion)
'60: Sylph (Snow Raven), Corona (Star Adder)
Early 60s: Resgate S&R PA(L) (Cloud Cobra)
'67: Aerie (Snow Raven), Afreet (Ice Hellion), Golem (Ghost Bear), "Rabid" (Nova Cat)
'73: Rogue Bear (Ghost Bear)
'77: Ironhold (Jade Falcon)

Elemental Battle Armour (Clan Wolf, 2868) is freely available but becoming steadily less common in all Clans due to attrition, HarJel issues, or simply being out of production or facilities for their construction lost or destroyed during the Jihad or seperation from the Homeworlds.

Any Clan with a feud running against the originators of new Battle Armour will probably have examples of it within two years. Those who have extensive trade links will also probably possess it in a similar time frame, perhaps even in greater quantities. Others are probably looking at 3-5 years, perhaps more, before they acquire such suits.

The only real exceptions to that are Rogue Bear and Ironhold armours, which are either too low quality (built to be used by Spheroid garrison troops...) or new and prized respectively to be seen in the hands of others just yet.

By 3090 or so, the Clans active in the Inner Sphere can probably be expected to have a point or two of non-Elemental BA per Binary they did not develop themselves. But unless they are the developers of the suit (or, like Clan Hell's Horses, which swiped the Golem have their own production facilities), probably no more than that if you want to stay realistic.

[St.George]

Thanks bro,,,we knew of the ones from the clan FM's,but kep' hearin' about the later ones that we didn't have info on,,,maybe this will keep the wolf player from killin' the Jade Falcon player   ;D

[Jaim Magnus]

'85 Sup - Thunderbird BA (Nova Cat)
'85 Sup - Warg Assault BA (Wolf)

[St.George]

thanks JM,though the gang is fightin' in the FC Civil War,,their gettin' anssy' about rebuilding their forces to compete with "ALL" the IS BA thats rolling off the lines,and I can't blame em after seeing my Ravens get pushed around by crappy IS BA,,,which lead our Wolf Rep to say"I was a Bully for 10 years (CBT) time,now I can't stop a IS rug-rat on a PA tri-cycle",,,,,,,though all clan rep's thought it was funny,we found out the hard truth.Thanks again   ;D

[Moonsword]

Also, after 3069, there's a new Elemental configuration, the APGR model.  I rather approve, personally.

[Istal_Devalis]

As is, unless the Clan in question is taking pains to keep it in Clan (Like the Cats and the Thunderbird), once the Diamond Sharks get their hands on it you can expect to see it spread everywhere.

[Hellraiser]

Also, after 3069, there's a new Elemental configuration, the APGR model.  I rather approve, personally.

Or Pre-69 where you put a LRR in the mount and call it a day  ;)
Who needs new toys anyway when the classics work  :D

[Moonsword]

I do when the classics leave me vulnerable to smartass FedCom jocks with MagShots (you do not want to have to burn your SRMs dissuading some joker in an Infiltrator II) and still don't let me kill 2d6 infantry every round.  The APGR put the Elemental back on top of the generalist medium BA dogpile where it belongs by neutralizing the IS range advantage that had crept up on them.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Before the APGR becomes available, the MiPL is fun.  It's practically identical to the regular SL, but with pulsy goodness.

[Stormfury]

once the Diamond Sharks get their hands on it you can expect to see it spread everywhere.

Not always. They acquired the schematics for the Undine, but have yet to put it into production.

I do when the classics leave me vulnerable to smartass FedCom jocks with MagShots (you do not want to have to burn your SRMs dissuading some joker in an Infiltrator II) and still don't let me kill 2d6 infantry every round.  The APGR put the Elemental back on top of the generalist medium BA dogpile where it belongs by neutralizing the IS range advantage that had crept up on them.

This. I would in fact go so far as to say that, in general, the Inner Sphere has a technological advantage over the Clans in the current era.

[Hellraiser]

This. I would in fact go so far as to say that, in general, the Inner Sphere has a technological advantage over the Clans in the current era.

Not....Even....Close.

The IS has Diversity, but they still don't even come close to clan tech in terms of Raw Effectiveness.

[Moonsword]

Agreed.  The most they can do is occasionally achieve a rough sort of parity, but they don't do it by meeting Clantech head on, they do it by getting tricksy.

[Stormfury]

On an item-by-item case, perhaps. Perhaps not.

The IS Plasma weapon is better; it at least deals damage with the heat. Aside from the ranges, the IS Rotary Cannon are better than the Clan models, and they aren't Experimental.

The Clans have no reply to the Capellan Thunder Munitions, Semi-Guided LRMs, Light and Heavy Gauss Rifles, the new Arrow munitions, Sub-Capital Lasers and Cannon, and a host of other technologies.

Not only that, while the Inner Sphere can obtain virtually any Clan technology they wish to employ, the reverse is not true.

Then you get into the designs themselves. The Inner Sphere machines, be they vehicle, BA, 'Mech, or what-have-you, are in general better constructed than comparable Clan models.

If you play Clan, you can do direct damage. Or, you can do direct damage. If you get really cunning, you can do... direct damage.

If you play Inner Sphere, you can do direct damage. Or, you can bedevil your opponent with Stealth armour. Or you can establish a C3 network. Or any one of a multitude of other tactics.

Play Clan, you have one option and one option only... and get to be derided as a "munchkin" because your weapons deal a bit more damage.

[Fear Factory]

The IS Plasma weapon is better; it at least deals damage with the heat. Aside from the ranges, the IS Rotary Cannon are better than the Clan models, and they aren't Experimental.

If I need to kill tanks and infantry I'll pull out machine guns, flamers, pulse lasers and LB-X autocannons.

The Clans have no reply to the Capellan Thunder Munitions, Semi-Guided LRMs, Light and Heavy Gauss Rifles, the new Arrow munitions, Sub-Capital Lasers and Cannon, and a host of other technologies.

Simply because the Clans don't need any of it.

Not only that, while the Inner Sphere can obtain virtually any Clan technology they wish to employ, the reverse is not true.

It really doesn't matter unless you play Clan Diamond Shark, who I believe, created the Clan RAC.  Clans don't need to waste their time refining inferior weapons based on barbaric war practices.

Then you get into the designs themselves. The Inner Sphere machines, be they vehicle, BA, 'Mech, or what-have-you, are in general better constructed than comparable Clan models.

How so?  The Nova Prime can spank almost any inner sphere design out there without breaking a sweat.  Heck, take any classic Viper variant.  There is no Inner Sphere design that will ever come close to these and they aren't even up there with the Timber Wolf A.

If you play Clan, you can do direct damage. Or, you can do direct damage. If you get really cunning, you can do... direct damage.

The Clans prefer to get in the face of their enemy and defeat them at all costs with honor.  Yeah it's direct, but it's lethal, mostly because the warrior is not concerned about surviving.

If you play Inner Sphere, you can do direct damage. Or, you can bedevil your opponent with Stealth armour. Or you can establish a C3 network. Or any one of a multitude of other tactics.

With the way they fight the Clans don't need any of this.  Again, like I said above, Clans don't need to waste their time refining inferior weapons based on barbaric war practices.

Play Clan, you have one option and one option only... and get to be derided as a "munchkin" because your weapons deal a bit more damage.

Not to mention they weigh less and have far more reach.  The weapons are more efficient in weight, damage and range. 

The Inner Sphere has a TACTICAL advantage and they will always have it as long as the Clans stick to their roots.  This will probably change come the Dark Age where everything is pretty much leveled off.

(Should probably start a new thread)

[Stormfury]

Simply because the Clans don't need any of it.

Clan designs are less likely to have ECM, and they lack Mine-Clearing ammo (among others) entirely. I also disagree on the naval technologies front, where the Clans have no Teleoperated Missiles (including the big Krakens), Screen Launchers, Mass Drivers, and other options, including fighter-delivered bombs.

Clans don't need to waste their time refining inferior weapons based on barbaric war practices.

The Inner Sphere has a basic-tech weapon that can unjam. The Clans do not.

The Nova Prime can spank almost any inner sphere design out there without breaking a sweat.

Not after '58, it couldn't. There are numerous assualts and heavies capable of finishing it with ease (Saggittaire, Stealth Pillager, Falconer...) and not a few mediums up to the job these days, too.

Heck, take any classic Viper variant.  There is no Inner Sphere design that will ever come close to these

DHS Venom, Raptor, Tarantula, Osiris, Ostscout, and Spector, all lighter than the Dragonfly, do. And as much as I like the Timber Wolf, the A is one of the few configurations that make appropriate use of the chassis. Whilst the Inner Sphere cannot match those dual PPCs, they have other ways of evening things up... like the Falconer.

The Inner Sphere has a TACTICAL advantage and they will always have it as long as the Clans stick to their roots.  This will probably change come the Dark Age where everything is pretty much leveled off.

The Inner Sphere has always had a strategic advantage in fluff, where the Clans excelled at tactics. In terms of the board game, the Clans were supposed to have a technological advantage, but this has been greatly diminished ever since 3058 and has, in the current era, swung the other way. The edge, in-game for the rules and setting, is now firmly in the hands of the Inner Sphere.

[Moonsword]

Clan designs are less likely to have ECM, and they lack Mine-Clearing ammo (among others) entirely. I also disagree on the naval technologies front, where the Clans have no Teleoperated Missiles (including the big Krakens), Screen Launchers, Mass Drivers, and other options, including fighter-delivered bombs.

You're not missing much on the mass drivers.

[Stormfury]

Gauss Rifles are cool. Asteroids are cool. Ergo, Gauss Rifles that fire asteroids are awesome.

Yeah, the rules aren't that flash. But still, another option the Clans lack...

[Moonsword]

The Clans don't have MRMs or rocket launchers, either, although a half-sized MRM 40 rack sounds kind of horrifying now that I think that comment through.

[Stormfury]

Yes and no. Clan LRMs take up the same weight and similar crits and heat to an MRM pack, and have a better range profile and no to-hit modifier. They could manufacture SLDF-era rocket launchers if they really wanted to, as well.

[Moonsword]

They take up less tonnage, actually.  As far as the rockets, if you copy the one design for them we have from that era (those used by the Periphery powers), you're actually losing out to the Marian version for effectiveness.

[Fear Factory]

The Clans don't have MRMs or rocket launchers, either, although a half-sized MRM 40 rack sounds kind of horrifying now that I think that comment through.

Rocket Launchers were utilized by the Pentagon Powers during Operation: Klondike.  The Clans operate differently and have no use for such systems, hence their extinction.

Clan designs are less likely to have ECM, and they lack Mine-Clearing ammo (among others) entirely. I also disagree on the naval technologies front, where the Clans have no Teleoperated Missiles (including the big Krakens), Screen Launchers, Mass Drivers, and other options, including fighter-delivered bombs.

Yeah, because ECM isn't useful considering the Clan style of fighting.  The other stuff I can't tell you because I'm not very familiar with the whole space combat side but I would assume it is for the same reasons.

The Inner Sphere has a basic-tech weapon that can unjam. The Clans do not.

Big deal.  The RAC5 is crap compared to common hard-hitting Clan weapons.

Not after '58, it couldn't. There are numerous assualts and heavies capable of finishing it with ease (Saggittaire, Stealth Pillager, Falconer...) and not a few mediums up to the job these days, too.

But look at what you have to use to stop the MEDIUM OmniMech.  The Nova has a 15 hex range throwing out a max of 42 damage per arm in 7 point clusters.  That is a very powerful punch for a small machine.  Why should you have to dedicate a heavy or assault BattleMech to combat a Clan Medium OmniMech?  Heck, this thing is a threat to the Timber Wolf A.

The Nova can tear up ANYTHING with ease.

DHS Venom, Raptor, Tarantula, Osiris, Ostscout, and Spector, all lighter than the Dragonfly, do. And as much as I like the Timber Wolf, the A is one of the few configurations that make appropriate use of the chassis. Whilst the Inner Sphere cannot match those dual PPCs, they have other ways of evening things up... like the Falconer.

The Ostscout has minimal weapons, the spector only moves 6/9/6 and can barely match Viper A and B, the Osiris is grossly outmatched by a Dragonfly A in pure firepower and range alone...

The Inner Sphere has always had a strategic advantage in fluff, where the Clans excelled at tactics. In terms of the board game, the Clans were supposed to have a technological advantage, but this has been greatly diminished ever since 3058 and has, in the current era, swung the other way. The edge, in-game for the rules and setting, is now firmly in the hands of the Inner Sphere.

The Clans have been using the same technology against the inner sphere for years and they still use it today.  This same technology is being supported by innovations like heavy lasers, ATM's, and HAG's.  Even new Clan tech can't replace the old because it is so efficient (or arguably broken in game terms).  Instead of matching the technology, the Inner Sphere innovated, creating and using technology that supports their tactics.  This is where their technology is superior and where I can agree with you.  Otherwise, the Clans come out on top.

[Maelwys]

The Clans also gained a space version of the Elemental suit in the 3085 Record sheets. They say "Star League Era" which is probably really wrong, but its possible they were around prior to 3067.

[Stormfury]

The other stuff I can't tell you because I'm not very familiar with the whole space combat side but I would assume it is for the same reasons.

It's not. The Inner Sphere has made big strides on the naval EW and weaponry front. The Clans have Sub-Capital Missiles, and that's it. In less than thirty years, the Inner Sphere went from not having any WarShips to having ones that make the Clan navies look like outmoded toys.

Big deal.  The RAC5 is crap compared to common hard-hitting Clan weapons.

18-hex range, 5-point clusters, 6 heat. It's not a U-A/C-20, nor is it meant to be.

But look at what you have to use to stop the MEDIUM OmniMech.

They were merely what sprang to mind. Against the Nova Prime and in a one-on-one situation, it can be a bit hairy. Unfortunately, the Nova has limited armour and is a one-trick pony. If it's not one-on-one, or if you are balancing by BV, it's not the best option.

Why should you have to dedicate a heavy or assault BattleMech to combat a Clan Medium OmniMech?

There are mediums that can get the job done. The WVR-7K, Enforcer III, Eyeleuka, Firestarter Omni, Hellspawn, Lynx, Starslayer and others can take the Nova on at its game and win. Depending on terrain, there are even Lights that are up to the job.

Heck, this thing is a threat to the Timber Wolf A.

Again, highly dependant on the terrain. If it can close and avoid the PPCs at range, it has a chance. Otherwise, it's going to get hammered at long range and chewed up in close.

The Nova can tear up ANYTHING with ease.

So can a Fireball. Theory does not necessarily equate to practical reality.

The Ostscout has minimal weapons,

As does the Viper in Configurations C and G.

the spector only moves 6/9/6

7/11/7, actually. There is also a 7/11(14) model with Stealth armour.

and can barely match Viper A and B

And yet it is lighter and still capable of doing so.

the Osiris is grossly outmatched by a Dragonfly A in pure firepower and range alone...

Not with 5 ER Mediums and a Medium Pulse, it isn't.

Instead of matching the technology, the Inner Sphere innovated, creating and using technology that supports their tactics.  This is where their technology is superior and where I can agree with you.  Otherwise, the Clans come out on top.

The problem here is that the designs the Inner Sphere has received since ~3058 have been employing those new forms of technology much more efficiently than the Clan models (rare exceptions aside) dating back as far as 3050. This is no longer Clan tech against 3025 machines and the abominations of 3050; it is the Clan designs as a whole against the upgraded and new machines now in use by the Inner Sphere, and the comparisons are not terribly equal.

Battle Armour is just one of the more glaring examples of the disparity there.

The Clans also gained a space version of the Elemental suit in the 3085 Record sheets. They say "Star League Era" which is probably really wrong, but its possible they were around prior to 3067.

Marine armour?

[Jaim Magnus]

Ooo, RS 3085 has the space elemental?  I'll have to pick that up :)

[Moonsword]

Consider this, please: If one is to be measured by the caliber of one's enemies, the Eisensturm is a very high compliment indeed.  The Clans are still capable of going out there and making it look like a chump, too.

The Clans are not innovating as rapidly as they perhaps should be.  But they're starting to smell the coffee in a lot of ways and we're seeing traditionally neglected, stagnant, or poorly utilized areas of the toumans waking up, taking stock, and starting to adapt to the situation they're in.  If the Clans have driven the Inner Sphere to great lengths by hanging the sword of Damocles over their heads (indeed, this was much of the reason that, in character, the Inner Sphere's WarShips are significantly better), the Inner Sphere is starting to push them the same way.  What Clantech is capable of doing in return if utilized as well as it can be, even without an embrace of the total warfare that would destroy everything the Clans have ever stood for, makes my inner Spheroid hide under the bed and beg for someone to make the bad men go away.

[Fear Factory]

18-hex range, 5-point clusters, 6 heat. It's not a U-A/C-20, nor is it meant to be.

Sure, but take the LRM-20 for example, two of those can throw out a max of 40 damage for the same weight with much more range plus no risk of jamming.  Two different classes of weapons, but game-wise they work just about the same.  Compairing it to other autocannons I can see your argument... Clan autocannons are only one or two tons smaller than their Spheroid counterparts with range as the primary bonus.  However, the RAC is very flexible, something the Inner Sphere needs.  Honestly the Clans do not need a RAC.

They were merely what sprang to mind. Against the Nova Prime and in a one-on-one situation, it can be a bit hairy. Unfortunately, the Nova has limited armour and is a one-trick pony. If it's not one-on-one, or if you are balancing by BV, it's not the best option.

With a 15 hex range it has a lot of power.  42 damage is what most inner sphere assault 'Mechs can probably do in one shot these days.  The nova can do this with EACH ARM and it has been around for a long time.  Old Clan Tech is still good tech.  Plus, it has max armor, so I can't agree with it having "limited armor."

There are mediums that can get the job done. The WVR-7K, Enforcer III, Eyeleuka, Firestarter Omni, Hellspawn, Lynx, Starslayer and others can take the Nova on at its game and win. Depending on terrain, there are even Lights that are up to the job.

They can get the job done.  However, they could never match the raw damage Nova Prime can put out per turn.  The only one I can agree with is the Starslayer because that machine is a beast, but even then, the nova has about 10 more large lasers (the Clan ER Medium is basically a standard large laser) with THE SAME range brackets.  It will be taking damage.  A lot of it.  And it will hurt.

Again, highly dependant on the terrain. If it can close and avoid the PPCs at range, it has a chance. Otherwise, it's going to get hammered at long range and chewed up in close.

The Timberwolf is probably going to take a beating too.

So can a Fireball. Theory does not necessarily equate to practical reality.

And so can a Jenner, which would have been a much better example, but come on.  The Nova Prime is almost guaranteed to hurt something or knock it down in one shot, Clan or IS.

As does the Viper in Configurations C and G.

Those are specialized and designed to combat infantry and battlearmor.  They don't need anything else.  The OST with light PPC's will have problems with a Viper.  Hell, a Viper will have problems with a Viper.  It is one of the most underestimated Clan OmniMechs in the game.

7/11/7, actually. There is also a 7/11(14) model with Stealth armour.

And yet it is lighter and still capable of doing so.

Oops.  :D

SO, then take a Hellion against it.  Same weight, and it can jump, if I remember correctly.

Not with 5 ER Mediums and a Medium Pulse, it isn't.

But your ER mediums are doing 5 damage with a 12 hex range for the same heat of a Clan version, which is doing about LARGE LASER damage and range.  That Osiris is going to be in a world of hurt if it falls after 3 Clan ER Medium Lasers smack it.  I'm sorry, Clan Tech is just superior with heat, damage, range and weight ratios.

The problem here is that the designs the Inner Sphere has received since ~3058 have been employing those new forms of technology much more efficiently than the Clan models (rare exceptions aside) dating back as far as 3050. This is no longer Clan tech against 3025 machines and the abominations of 3050; it is the Clan designs as a whole against the upgraded and new machines now in use by the Inner Sphere, and the comparisons are not terribly equal.

I know.  You are failing to see that the Inner Sphere can't match raw firepower with their weapons.  Clan weapon ratios are better.  This is why they rely on specialization and numbers.

Without bringing nuclear warheads and orbital bombardment into the question, if the Clans dropped all standards and just fought like the Spheroids (using mass fire for example), there would be a lot of carnage.  The Clans would tear them up.  Clan Ghost Bear's Omega Galaxy is known for this.

[Stormfury]

Sure, but take the LRM-20 for example, two of those can throw out a max of 40 damage for the same weight with much more range plus no risk of jamming.

And double the heat. And the ammo is more explosive. And so on and so forth.

Compairing it to other autocannons I can see your argument... Clan autocannons are only one or two tons smaller than their Spheroid counterparts with range as the primary bonus.

The killer for me is that the Inner Sphere went from having no rapid-fire AutoCannon at all to having rapid-fire AutoCannon that could un jam in the space of a few centuries. The Clans still have not solved the jamming/circuit burn-out issue, after centuries of weapon refinement and beginning at a higher tech base.

42 damage is what most inner sphere assault 'Mechs can probably do in one shot these days.

With a few exceptions, 40-50 is the maximum practical damage any 'Mech can lay down in a single turn without heat issues. There are IS Mediums (Komodo, Centurion, etc) that can pull the same stunt. And for the sake of comparison, a Devastator is delivering twin 15-point and 10-point attacks rather than the 7s of the Nova... from ~50% greater range.

The Nova Prime is a good 'Mech, as long as you can get your opponent to play your game and they aren't using one of the (many) IS 'Mechs capable of playing that same game just as well, if not better.

Plus, it has max armor, so I can't agree with it having "limited armor."

It is fifty tons and does not have maximum armour for the chassis in any case.

SO, then take a Hellion against it.  Same weight, and it can jump, if I remember correctly.

It doesn't.

I know.  You are failing to see that the Inner Sphere can't match raw firepower with their weapons.

They can. Nightstar. Thunder Hawk. Devastator. Even the lowly Akuma can fight like a Clan assualt. The Inner Sphere had rough parity design-wise by 3060. By 3067, they were overtaking the Clans.

If Clan designs were employing old and new technologies as effectively as the Inner Sphere designs from that period, things would be different. Not everyone plays games where customs designs are allowed, though.

Without bringing nuclear warheads and orbital bombardment into the question, if the Clans dropped all standards and just fought like the Spheroids (using mass fire for example), there would be a lot of carnage.  The Clans would tear them up.  Clan Ghost Bear's Omega Galaxy is known for this.

Omega Galaxy is also known for being ostracised by Clan Ghost Bear at large for their tactics since their inception, and for going rogue and essentially declaring independance from the Clan(s) in the Dark Age. Not the best example.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Play Clan, you have one option and one option only... and get to be derided as a "munchkin" because your weapons deal a bit more damage.

This is a great truth. I've seen this quite often myself. It doesn't matter that my Elemental Point and the Koshi they rode-in on just got Arrow IV'd to hell, or my Masakari just got plinked away by a Stealth 'Mech it couldn't generate a solid hit against, my Gauss Rifle weighs less and my LPL does 1 more damage at longer range so I need to STFU and deal with it. Kiss my what?

[Arkansas Warrior]

And double the heat. And the ammo is more explosive. And so on and so forth.

More explosive?  How's that?