Canon Clan BA?

[St.George]

During last sundays game,a question arose from the clan faction section of the game table,,,"What Eley BA is available to the clans up to the post-jihad era?"Now we know of the standard Eley BA config's and some of the BA that was in the Clan FM's,but we hear theres been more coming out of clan space,so we are tryin to come up with a list of all suits.Thanks for any and all help.   ;D

[Stormfury]

I think you may have to be more specific.

'56: Gnome (Hell's Horses)
'58: Salamander (Fire Mandrill)
'59: Undine (Goliath Scorpion)
'60: Sylph (Snow Raven), Corona (Star Adder)
Early 60s: Resgate S&R PA(L) (Cloud Cobra)
'67: Aerie (Snow Raven), Afreet (Ice Hellion), Golem (Ghost Bear), "Rabid" (Nova Cat)
'73: Rogue Bear (Ghost Bear)
'77: Ironhold (Jade Falcon)

Elemental Battle Armour (Clan Wolf, 2868) is freely available but becoming steadily less common in all Clans due to attrition, HarJel issues, or simply being out of production or facilities for their construction lost or destroyed during the Jihad or seperation from the Homeworlds.

Any Clan with a feud running against the originators of new Battle Armour will probably have examples of it within two years. Those who have extensive trade links will also probably possess it in a similar time frame, perhaps even in greater quantities. Others are probably looking at 3-5 years, perhaps more, before they acquire such suits.

The only real exceptions to that are Rogue Bear and Ironhold armours, which are either too low quality (built to be used by Spheroid garrison troops...) or new and prized respectively to be seen in the hands of others just yet.

By 3090 or so, the Clans active in the Inner Sphere can probably be expected to have a point or two of non-Elemental BA per Binary they did not develop themselves. But unless they are the developers of the suit (or, like Clan Hell's Horses, which swiped the Golem have their own production facilities), probably no more than that if you want to stay realistic.

[St.George]

Thanks bro,,,we knew of the ones from the clan FM's,but kep' hearin' about the later ones that we didn't have info on,,,maybe this will keep the wolf player from killin' the Jade Falcon player   ;D

[Jaim Magnus]

'85 Sup - Thunderbird BA (Nova Cat)
'85 Sup - Warg Assault BA (Wolf)

[St.George]

thanks JM,though the gang is fightin' in the FC Civil War,,their gettin' anssy' about rebuilding their forces to compete with "ALL" the IS BA thats rolling off the lines,and I can't blame em after seeing my Ravens get pushed around by crappy IS BA,,,which lead our Wolf Rep to say"I was a Bully for 10 years (CBT) time,now I can't stop a IS rug-rat on a PA tri-cycle",,,,,,,though all clan rep's thought it was funny,we found out the hard truth.Thanks again   ;D

[Moonsword]

Also, after 3069, there's a new Elemental configuration, the APGR model.  I rather approve, personally.

[Istal_Devalis]

As is, unless the Clan in question is taking pains to keep it in Clan (Like the Cats and the Thunderbird), once the Diamond Sharks get their hands on it you can expect to see it spread everywhere.

[Hellraiser]

Also, after 3069, there's a new Elemental configuration, the APGR model.  I rather approve, personally.

Or Pre-69 where you put a LRR in the mount and call it a day  ;)
Who needs new toys anyway when the classics work  :D

[Moonsword]

I do when the classics leave me vulnerable to smartass FedCom jocks with MagShots (you do not want to have to burn your SRMs dissuading some joker in an Infiltrator II) and still don't let me kill 2d6 infantry every round.  The APGR put the Elemental back on top of the generalist medium BA dogpile where it belongs by neutralizing the IS range advantage that had crept up on them.

[Arkansas Warrior]

Before the APGR becomes available, the MiPL is fun.  It's practically identical to the regular SL, but with pulsy goodness.

[Stormfury]

once the Diamond Sharks get their hands on it you can expect to see it spread everywhere.

Not always. They acquired the schematics for the Undine, but have yet to put it into production.

I do when the classics leave me vulnerable to smartass FedCom jocks with MagShots (you do not want to have to burn your SRMs dissuading some joker in an Infiltrator II) and still don't let me kill 2d6 infantry every round.  The APGR put the Elemental back on top of the generalist medium BA dogpile where it belongs by neutralizing the IS range advantage that had crept up on them.

This. I would in fact go so far as to say that, in general, the Inner Sphere has a technological advantage over the Clans in the current era.

[Hellraiser]

This. I would in fact go so far as to say that, in general, the Inner Sphere has a technological advantage over the Clans in the current era.

Not....Even....Close.

The IS has Diversity, but they still don't even come close to clan tech in terms of Raw Effectiveness.

[Moonsword]

Agreed.  The most they can do is occasionally achieve a rough sort of parity, but they don't do it by meeting Clantech head on, they do it by getting tricksy.

[Stormfury]

On an item-by-item case, perhaps. Perhaps not.

The IS Plasma weapon is better; it at least deals damage with the heat. Aside from the ranges, the IS Rotary Cannon are better than the Clan models, and they aren't Experimental.

The Clans have no reply to the Capellan Thunder Munitions, Semi-Guided LRMs, Light and Heavy Gauss Rifles, the new Arrow munitions, Sub-Capital Lasers and Cannon, and a host of other technologies.

Not only that, while the Inner Sphere can obtain virtually any Clan technology they wish to employ, the reverse is not true.

Then you get into the designs themselves. The Inner Sphere machines, be they vehicle, BA, 'Mech, or what-have-you, are in general better constructed than comparable Clan models.

If you play Clan, you can do direct damage. Or, you can do direct damage. If you get really cunning, you can do... direct damage.

If you play Inner Sphere, you can do direct damage. Or, you can bedevil your opponent with Stealth armour. Or you can establish a C3 network. Or any one of a multitude of other tactics.

Play Clan, you have one option and one option only... and get to be derided as a "munchkin" because your weapons deal a bit more damage.

[Fear Factory]

The IS Plasma weapon is better; it at least deals damage with the heat. Aside from the ranges, the IS Rotary Cannon are better than the Clan models, and they aren't Experimental.

If I need to kill tanks and infantry I'll pull out machine guns, flamers, pulse lasers and LB-X autocannons.

The Clans have no reply to the Capellan Thunder Munitions, Semi-Guided LRMs, Light and Heavy Gauss Rifles, the new Arrow munitions, Sub-Capital Lasers and Cannon, and a host of other technologies.

Simply because the Clans don't need any of it.

Not only that, while the Inner Sphere can obtain virtually any Clan technology they wish to employ, the reverse is not true.

It really doesn't matter unless you play Clan Diamond Shark, who I believe, created the Clan RAC.  Clans don't need to waste their time refining inferior weapons based on barbaric war practices.

Then you get into the designs themselves. The Inner Sphere machines, be they vehicle, BA, 'Mech, or what-have-you, are in general better constructed than comparable Clan models.

How so?  The Nova Prime can spank almost any inner sphere design out there without breaking a sweat.  Heck, take any classic Viper variant.  There is no Inner Sphere design that will ever come close to these and they aren't even up there with the Timber Wolf A.

If you play Clan, you can do direct damage. Or, you can do direct damage. If you get really cunning, you can do... direct damage.

The Clans prefer to get in the face of their enemy and defeat them at all costs with honor.  Yeah it's direct, but it's lethal, mostly because the warrior is not concerned about surviving.

If you play Inner Sphere, you can do direct damage. Or, you can bedevil your opponent with Stealth armour. Or you can establish a C3 network. Or any one of a multitude of other tactics.

With the way they fight the Clans don't need any of this.  Again, like I said above, Clans don't need to waste their time refining inferior weapons based on barbaric war practices.

Play Clan, you have one option and one option only... and get to be derided as a "munchkin" because your weapons deal a bit more damage.

Not to mention they weigh less and have far more reach.  The weapons are more efficient in weight, damage and range. 

The Inner Sphere has a TACTICAL advantage and they will always have it as long as the Clans stick to their roots.  This will probably change come the Dark Age where everything is pretty much leveled off.

(Should probably start a new thread)

[Stormfury]

Simply because the Clans don't need any of it.

Clan designs are less likely to have ECM, and they lack Mine-Clearing ammo (among others) entirely. I also disagree on the naval technologies front, where the Clans have no Teleoperated Missiles (including the big Krakens), Screen Launchers, Mass Drivers, and other options, including fighter-delivered bombs.

Clans don't need to waste their time refining inferior weapons based on barbaric war practices.

The Inner Sphere has a basic-tech weapon that can unjam. The Clans do not.

The Nova Prime can spank almost any inner sphere design out there without breaking a sweat.

Not after '58, it couldn't. There are numerous assualts and heavies capable of finishing it with ease (Saggittaire, Stealth Pillager, Falconer...) and not a few mediums up to the job these days, too.

Heck, take any classic Viper variant.  There is no Inner Sphere design that will ever come close to these

DHS Venom, Raptor, Tarantula, Osiris, Ostscout, and Spector, all lighter than the Dragonfly, do. And as much as I like the Timber Wolf, the A is one of the few configurations that make appropriate use of the chassis. Whilst the Inner Sphere cannot match those dual PPCs, they have other ways of evening things up... like the Falconer.

The Inner Sphere has a TACTICAL advantage and they will always have it as long as the Clans stick to their roots.  This will probably change come the Dark Age where everything is pretty much leveled off.

The Inner Sphere has always had a strategic advantage in fluff, where the Clans excelled at tactics. In terms of the board game, the Clans were supposed to have a technological advantage, but this has been greatly diminished ever since 3058 and has, in the current era, swung the other way. The edge, in-game for the rules and setting, is now firmly in the hands of the Inner Sphere.

[Moonsword]

Clan designs are less likely to have ECM, and they lack Mine-Clearing ammo (among others) entirely. I also disagree on the naval technologies front, where the Clans have no Teleoperated Missiles (including the big Krakens), Screen Launchers, Mass Drivers, and other options, including fighter-delivered bombs.

You're not missing much on the mass drivers.

[Stormfury]

Gauss Rifles are cool. Asteroids are cool. Ergo, Gauss Rifles that fire asteroids are awesome.

Yeah, the rules aren't that flash. But still, another option the Clans lack...

[Moonsword]

The Clans don't have MRMs or rocket launchers, either, although a half-sized MRM 40 rack sounds kind of horrifying now that I think that comment through.

[Stormfury]

Yes and no. Clan LRMs take up the same weight and similar crits and heat to an MRM pack, and have a better range profile and no to-hit modifier. They could manufacture SLDF-era rocket launchers if they really wanted to, as well.

[Moonsword]

They take up less tonnage, actually.  As far as the rockets, if you copy the one design for them we have from that era (those used by the Periphery powers), you're actually losing out to the Marian version for effectiveness.

[Fear Factory]

The Clans don't have MRMs or rocket launchers, either, although a half-sized MRM 40 rack sounds kind of horrifying now that I think that comment through.

Rocket Launchers were utilized by the Pentagon Powers during Operation: Klondike.  The Clans operate differently and have no use for such systems, hence their extinction.

Clan designs are less likely to have ECM, and they lack Mine-Clearing ammo (among others) entirely. I also disagree on the naval technologies front, where the Clans have no Teleoperated Missiles (including the big Krakens), Screen Launchers, Mass Drivers, and other options, including fighter-delivered bombs.

Yeah, because ECM isn't useful considering the Clan style of fighting.  The other stuff I can't tell you because I'm not very familiar with the whole space combat side but I would assume it is for the same reasons.

The Inner Sphere has a basic-tech weapon that can unjam. The Clans do not.

Big deal.  The RAC5 is crap compared to common hard-hitting Clan weapons.

Not after '58, it couldn't. There are numerous assualts and heavies capable of finishing it with ease (Saggittaire, Stealth Pillager, Falconer...) and not a few mediums up to the job these days, too.

But look at what you have to use to stop the MEDIUM OmniMech.  The Nova has a 15 hex range throwing out a max of 42 damage per arm in 7 point clusters.  That is a very powerful punch for a small machine.  Why should you have to dedicate a heavy or assault BattleMech to combat a Clan Medium OmniMech?  Heck, this thing is a threat to the Timber Wolf A.

The Nova can tear up ANYTHING with ease.

DHS Venom, Raptor, Tarantula, Osiris, Ostscout, and Spector, all lighter than the Dragonfly, do. And as much as I like the Timber Wolf, the A is one of the few configurations that make appropriate use of the chassis. Whilst the Inner Sphere cannot match those dual PPCs, they have other ways of evening things up... like the Falconer.

The Ostscout has minimal weapons, the spector only moves 6/9/6 and can barely match Viper A and B, the Osiris is grossly outmatched by a Dragonfly A in pure firepower and range alone...

The Inner Sphere has always had a strategic advantage in fluff, where the Clans excelled at tactics. In terms of the board game, the Clans were supposed to have a technological advantage, but this has been greatly diminished ever since 3058 and has, in the current era, swung the other way. The edge, in-game for the rules and setting, is now firmly in the hands of the Inner Sphere.

The Clans have been using the same technology against the inner sphere for years and they still use it today.  This same technology is being supported by innovations like heavy lasers, ATM's, and HAG's.  Even new Clan tech can't replace the old because it is so efficient (or arguably broken in game terms).  Instead of matching the technology, the Inner Sphere innovated, creating and using technology that supports their tactics.  This is where their technology is superior and where I can agree with you.  Otherwise, the Clans come out on top.

[Maelwys]

The Clans also gained a space version of the Elemental suit in the 3085 Record sheets. They say "Star League Era" which is probably really wrong, but its possible they were around prior to 3067.

[Stormfury]

The other stuff I can't tell you because I'm not very familiar with the whole space combat side but I would assume it is for the same reasons.

It's not. The Inner Sphere has made big strides on the naval EW and weaponry front. The Clans have Sub-Capital Missiles, and that's it. In less than thirty years, the Inner Sphere went from not having any WarShips to having ones that make the Clan navies look like outmoded toys.

Big deal.  The RAC5 is crap compared to common hard-hitting Clan weapons.

18-hex range, 5-point clusters, 6 heat. It's not a U-A/C-20, nor is it meant to be.

But look at what you have to use to stop the MEDIUM OmniMech.

They were merely what sprang to mind. Against the Nova Prime and in a one-on-one situation, it can be a bit hairy. Unfortunately, the Nova has limited armour and is a one-trick pony. If it's not one-on-one, or if you are balancing by BV, it's not the best option.

Why should you have to dedicate a heavy or assault BattleMech to combat a Clan Medium OmniMech?

There are mediums that can get the job done. The WVR-7K, Enforcer III, Eyeleuka, Firestarter Omni, Hellspawn, Lynx, Starslayer and others can take the Nova on at its game and win. Depending on terrain, there are even Lights that are up to the job.

Heck, this thing is a threat to the Timber Wolf A.

Again, highly dependant on the terrain. If it can close and avoid the PPCs at range, it has a chance. Otherwise, it's going to get hammered at long range and chewed up in close.

The Nova can tear up ANYTHING with ease.

So can a Fireball. Theory does not necessarily equate to practical reality.

The Ostscout has minimal weapons,

As does the Viper in Configurations C and G.

the spector only moves 6/9/6

7/11/7, actually. There is also a 7/11(14) model with Stealth armour.

and can barely match Viper A and B

And yet it is lighter and still capable of doing so.

the Osiris is grossly outmatched by a Dragonfly A in pure firepower and range alone...

Not with 5 ER Mediums and a Medium Pulse, it isn't.

Instead of matching the technology, the Inner Sphere innovated, creating and using technology that supports their tactics.  This is where their technology is superior and where I can agree with you.  Otherwise, the Clans come out on top.

The problem here is that the designs the Inner Sphere has received since ~3058 have been employing those new forms of technology much more efficiently than the Clan models (rare exceptions aside) dating back as far as 3050. This is no longer Clan tech against 3025 machines and the abominations of 3050; it is the Clan designs as a whole against the upgraded and new machines now in use by the Inner Sphere, and the comparisons are not terribly equal.

Battle Armour is just one of the more glaring examples of the disparity there.

The Clans also gained a space version of the Elemental suit in the 3085 Record sheets. They say "Star League Era" which is probably really wrong, but its possible they were around prior to 3067.

Marine armour?

[Jaim Magnus]

Ooo, RS 3085 has the space elemental?  I'll have to pick that up :)

[Moonsword]

Consider this, please: If one is to be measured by the caliber of one's enemies, the Eisensturm is a very high compliment indeed.  The Clans are still capable of going out there and making it look like a chump, too.

The Clans are not innovating as rapidly as they perhaps should be.  But they're starting to smell the coffee in a lot of ways and we're seeing traditionally neglected, stagnant, or poorly utilized areas of the toumans waking up, taking stock, and starting to adapt to the situation they're in.  If the Clans have driven the Inner Sphere to great lengths by hanging the sword of Damocles over their heads (indeed, this was much of the reason that, in character, the Inner Sphere's WarShips are significantly better), the Inner Sphere is starting to push them the same way.  What Clantech is capable of doing in return if utilized as well as it can be, even without an embrace of the total warfare that would destroy everything the Clans have ever stood for, makes my inner Spheroid hide under the bed and beg for someone to make the bad men go away.

[Fear Factory]

18-hex range, 5-point clusters, 6 heat. It's not a U-A/C-20, nor is it meant to be.

Sure, but take the LRM-20 for example, two of those can throw out a max of 40 damage for the same weight with much more range plus no risk of jamming.  Two different classes of weapons, but game-wise they work just about the same.  Compairing it to other autocannons I can see your argument... Clan autocannons are only one or two tons smaller than their Spheroid counterparts with range as the primary bonus.  However, the RAC is very flexible, something the Inner Sphere needs.  Honestly the Clans do not need a RAC.

They were merely what sprang to mind. Against the Nova Prime and in a one-on-one situation, it can be a bit hairy. Unfortunately, the Nova has limited armour and is a one-trick pony. If it's not one-on-one, or if you are balancing by BV, it's not the best option.

With a 15 hex range it has a lot of power.  42 damage is what most inner sphere assault 'Mechs can probably do in one shot these days.  The nova can do this with EACH ARM and it has been around for a long time.  Old Clan Tech is still good tech.  Plus, it has max armor, so I can't agree with it having "limited armor."

There are mediums that can get the job done. The WVR-7K, Enforcer III, Eyeleuka, Firestarter Omni, Hellspawn, Lynx, Starslayer and others can take the Nova on at its game and win. Depending on terrain, there are even Lights that are up to the job.

They can get the job done.  However, they could never match the raw damage Nova Prime can put out per turn.  The only one I can agree with is the Starslayer because that machine is a beast, but even then, the nova has about 10 more large lasers (the Clan ER Medium is basically a standard large laser) with THE SAME range brackets.  It will be taking damage.  A lot of it.  And it will hurt.

Again, highly dependant on the terrain. If it can close and avoid the PPCs at range, it has a chance. Otherwise, it's going to get hammered at long range and chewed up in close.

The Timberwolf is probably going to take a beating too.

So can a Fireball. Theory does not necessarily equate to practical reality.

And so can a Jenner, which would have been a much better example, but come on.  The Nova Prime is almost guaranteed to hurt something or knock it down in one shot, Clan or IS.

As does the Viper in Configurations C and G.

Those are specialized and designed to combat infantry and battlearmor.  They don't need anything else.  The OST with light PPC's will have problems with a Viper.  Hell, a Viper will have problems with a Viper.  It is one of the most underestimated Clan OmniMechs in the game.

7/11/7, actually. There is also a 7/11(14) model with Stealth armour.

And yet it is lighter and still capable of doing so.

Oops.  :D

SO, then take a Hellion against it.  Same weight, and it can jump, if I remember correctly.

Not with 5 ER Mediums and a Medium Pulse, it isn't.

But your ER mediums are doing 5 damage with a 12 hex range for the same heat of a Clan version, which is doing about LARGE LASER damage and range.  That Osiris is going to be in a world of hurt if it falls after 3 Clan ER Medium Lasers smack it.  I'm sorry, Clan Tech is just superior with heat, damage, range and weight ratios.

The problem here is that the designs the Inner Sphere has received since ~3058 have been employing those new forms of technology much more efficiently than the Clan models (rare exceptions aside) dating back as far as 3050. This is no longer Clan tech against 3025 machines and the abominations of 3050; it is the Clan designs as a whole against the upgraded and new machines now in use by the Inner Sphere, and the comparisons are not terribly equal.

I know.  You are failing to see that the Inner Sphere can't match raw firepower with their weapons.  Clan weapon ratios are better.  This is why they rely on specialization and numbers.

Without bringing nuclear warheads and orbital bombardment into the question, if the Clans dropped all standards and just fought like the Spheroids (using mass fire for example), there would be a lot of carnage.  The Clans would tear them up.  Clan Ghost Bear's Omega Galaxy is known for this.

[Stormfury]

Sure, but take the LRM-20 for example, two of those can throw out a max of 40 damage for the same weight with much more range plus no risk of jamming.

And double the heat. And the ammo is more explosive. And so on and so forth.

Compairing it to other autocannons I can see your argument... Clan autocannons are only one or two tons smaller than their Spheroid counterparts with range as the primary bonus.

The killer for me is that the Inner Sphere went from having no rapid-fire AutoCannon at all to having rapid-fire AutoCannon that could un jam in the space of a few centuries. The Clans still have not solved the jamming/circuit burn-out issue, after centuries of weapon refinement and beginning at a higher tech base.

42 damage is what most inner sphere assault 'Mechs can probably do in one shot these days.

With a few exceptions, 40-50 is the maximum practical damage any 'Mech can lay down in a single turn without heat issues. There are IS Mediums (Komodo, Centurion, etc) that can pull the same stunt. And for the sake of comparison, a Devastator is delivering twin 15-point and 10-point attacks rather than the 7s of the Nova... from ~50% greater range.

The Nova Prime is a good 'Mech, as long as you can get your opponent to play your game and they aren't using one of the (many) IS 'Mechs capable of playing that same game just as well, if not better.

Plus, it has max armor, so I can't agree with it having "limited armor."

It is fifty tons and does not have maximum armour for the chassis in any case.

SO, then take a Hellion against it.  Same weight, and it can jump, if I remember correctly.

It doesn't.

I know.  You are failing to see that the Inner Sphere can't match raw firepower with their weapons.

They can. Nightstar. Thunder Hawk. Devastator. Even the lowly Akuma can fight like a Clan assualt. The Inner Sphere had rough parity design-wise by 3060. By 3067, they were overtaking the Clans.

If Clan designs were employing old and new technologies as effectively as the Inner Sphere designs from that period, things would be different. Not everyone plays games where customs designs are allowed, though.

Without bringing nuclear warheads and orbital bombardment into the question, if the Clans dropped all standards and just fought like the Spheroids (using mass fire for example), there would be a lot of carnage.  The Clans would tear them up.  Clan Ghost Bear's Omega Galaxy is known for this.

Omega Galaxy is also known for being ostracised by Clan Ghost Bear at large for their tactics since their inception, and for going rogue and essentially declaring independance from the Clan(s) in the Dark Age. Not the best example.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Play Clan, you have one option and one option only... and get to be derided as a "munchkin" because your weapons deal a bit more damage.

This is a great truth. I've seen this quite often myself. It doesn't matter that my Elemental Point and the Koshi they rode-in on just got Arrow IV'd to hell, or my Masakari just got plinked away by a Stealth 'Mech it couldn't generate a solid hit against, my Gauss Rifle weighs less and my LPL does 1 more damage at longer range so I need to STFU and deal with it. Kiss my what?

[Arkansas Warrior]

And double the heat. And the ammo is more explosive. And so on and so forth.

More explosive?  How's that?

[ColBosch]

So...how many of these items can be mounted on Canon Clan Battle Armor?

[Stormfury]

More explosive?  How's that?

1 ton of R-A/C-2 ammo exploding: 90 damage.
1 ton of R-A/C-5 ammo exploding: 100 damage.
1 ton of LRM ammunition (any launcher) exploding: 120 damage.

And you tend to chew through R-A/C ammunition much more swiftly than LRM ammo.

[Urban Kufahl]

Yes after 3070 the IS power have some juicy toys but how many could be fielded ?

CL-BA vs IS-BA :
For clans the BA is the "basic" trooper for 1st line units and a lot of 2nd lines. For the IS BA is a rare stuff reserved to front line elite and in limited numbers.

[Moonsword]

Yes after 3070 the IS power have some juicy toys but how many could be fielded ?

CL-BA vs IS-BA :
For clans the BA is the "basic" trooper for 1st line units and a lot of 2nd lines. For the IS BA is a rare stuff reserved to front line elite and in limited numbers.

That's changing.  Look at FR: AFFS, for example.  Battle armor is the most intact production left to the AFFS, so it's getting much more common.

[Stormfury]

And in terms of raw numbers, from ~3060 onwards most Regiments have around as much BA support as a Cluster does.

[Urban Kufahl]

And in terms of raw numbers, from ~3060 onwards most Regiments have around as much BA support as a Cluster does.

It's what they planned but plan vs reallity  #P

Source : Lyran Alliance FM (3062)

1st Coventry Jaeger : 1 BA Platoon

8th Donegal Guards RCT, 311th Donegal Jump Regiment : 2 Fenrir BA Platoon
11th Donegal Guards RCT, 217th donegal Commando Regiment : 1 BA Platoon
14th Donegal Guards RCT, 8th Donegal Armored Infantry : 2 BA Companies

3rd Lyran Guards RCT, 62nd Lyran Jump Infantry Regiment : 1 BA Company
6th Lyran Guards RCT, 8th Lyran BAB : 1 BA Battalion
10th Lyran Guards RCT, 974th Fed-Com BAB : 1 BA Battalion

1st Royal Guards RCT, 1st Royal Guards BAR : 1 BA Regiment (stated as 6 month production)


1 Basic cluster = 1 BA Trinary (75 BA)

Clans are not fielding full cluster of BA (exept the CGB Galaxy) it's just because they don't want it.
IS powers are not fielding full BA regiment (ok 1 Rgt) it's because they can't do it

So maybe you want to "relook" your opinion ;)

[Urban Kufahl]

2nd points :

Clans are producing BA since +/- 100-150 years, now it's just a really basic stuff for them like another weapon. On the other hand for the Is forces it's still a brand new tech, hard to produce, maintain and replace.

[Sid]

2nd points :

Clans are producing BA since +/- 100-150 years, now it's just a really basic stuff for them like another weapon. On the other hand for the Is forces it's still a brand new tech, hard to produce, maintain and replace.

I.S BA was "brand new tech" back around 3052.  So was ER Medium and Small lasers, SSRM2s and 4s, Small and medium pulse lasers, LBx 2, 10, and 20 calibers etc.

Not to mention the more recent stuff such as RACs, Stealth Armour, C3 networks, etc. etc.

I remember reading somewhere that the issue was that the Inner Sphere was having trouble finding bodies to fill the suits- the Clans turn out Elementals in batches, while the I.S has to recruit heavy set, big, people.

On the other hand- you only need a BOD of 5 (IIRC) to pilot them in the RPG, as well as the fact that each I.S House seems to have at least half a dozen different unique BA suits they've created so...
 

[Kit deSummersville]

18-hex range, 5-point clusters, 6 heat. It's not a U-A/C-20, nor is it meant to be.

15 hex range, same as a Clan ERML.

Though I hasten to point out:

                              RAC 5                       HAG 30
Weight                    10                                13
Heat                         6                                  6
Jam                    4 or less                          None
Unjam               Gunnery+3                       None
Damage      30 max, 5 pt clusters   30 max, 5 pt clusters
Max Range              15                                  24
Min Range              None                               2
Ammo/ton               3.33                               4
Crits                          6                                  8

[Fear Factory]

And double the heat. And the ammo is more explosive. And so on and so forth.

It was a quick example with old Clan tech.  Do you forget that CASE comes standard so there is really no reason to worry about something like that?  Check kit's post about the HAG 30 for something new.  Don't even tell me that it's inferior to the Inner Sphere RAC.

The killer for me is that the Inner Sphere went from having no rapid-fire AutoCannon at all to having rapid-fire AutoCannon that could un jam in the space of a few centuries. The Clans still have not solved the jamming/circuit burn-out issue, after centuries of weapon refinement and beginning at a higher tech base.

It's a different gun.  They didn't fix anything.  No one fixed anything.  The Clans at least made it lighter and made it shoot much further.

With a few exceptions, 40-50 is the maximum practical damage any 'Mech can lay down in a single turn without heat issues. There are IS Mediums (Komodo, Centurion, etc) that can pull the same stunt. And for the sake of comparison, a Devastator is delivering twin 15-point and 10-point attacks rather than the 7s of the Nova... from ~50% greater range.

A 7 damage hit is nothing to shrug off.  Are you saying the Large Laser has no merit?

They pull the same stunts but have some significant flaws.  The Nova still out ranges the Komodo.  Plus, the Komodo is lighter and has an XL engine, so it has even worse armor on your standards.  And, with that armor you have the frail IS XL engine that is bad compared to the Nova's superior Clan XL.  Also, you're implying (IMO) that a 7 point hits lack power but you support a bunch of 5 point hits which are basically the same as an LRM hit?  Another example of a poor imitation of Clan tech is the Rakshasa.

Also, yeah the Devastator has more reach.  Again, the fact that you would have to resort to an Assault 'Mech to shoot down a Clan Medium OmniMech is the point here.  The inner sphere cannot match Clan technology nor create anything like it making their technology inferior.  The Clans can do what IS assaults can do with a Heavy chassis.  Heck, they can push it on the Medium with cheese...  like the Nova prime.

The Nova Prime is a good 'Mech, as long as you can get your opponent to play your game and they aren't using one of the (many) IS 'Mechs capable of playing that same game just as well, if not better.

Yeah, but come on.  It's not like you have to be within 5 hexes to get use out of a Nova prime.  Again, 15 is some good reach.

It is fifty tons and does not have maximum armour for the chassis in any case.

Really?  It's like 94% coverage.  That's a copout.

They can. Nightstar. Thunder Hawk. Devastator. Even the lowly Akuma can fight like a Clan assualt. The Inner Sphere had rough parity design-wise by 3060. By 3067, they were overtaking the Clans.

No.  Simply because nothing can fight like a Dire Wolf on the Inner Sphere side.  Ever.  The prime can match their firepower WITH ONE ARM.  Dire Wolf A is just scary.  Did you forget the Widowmaker?  And to make things worse, there are Clan Mediums and Heavies that can outclass the designs you proposed, AND one of them is the Nova prime.  Again, you are throwing out Assault 'Mechs but you are failing to throw out heavies or mediums that would make Clan pilots run the other direction.  It's not going to happen.

If Clan designs were employing old and new technologies as effectively as the Inner Sphere designs from that period, things would be different. Not everyone plays games where customs designs are allowed, though.

I'm not talking customs.

Omega Galaxy is also known for being ostracised by Clan Ghost Bear at large for their tactics since their inception, and for going rogue and essentially declaring independance from the Clan(s) in the Dark Age. Not the best example.

What does that have to do with anything?  They employ Clan Tech with Inner Sphere standards and it hurts.  A lot.  The dark age is a different story because everything basically levels out.

[Moonsword]

Really?  It's like 94% coverage.  That's a copout.

The context of that remark was in response to a claim by you that the 'Mech has maximum armor.  It doesn't.  Calling someone on an incorrect statement is not a cop out and terming it so verges on the disingenuous.  Further, the remark about chassis size is relevant when some of the proposed counters are much larger which means there's potentially significantly more armor in play.  It's an observation that the Clan machine's greater damage is going to get tied up burning through heavier armor.

Whether or not the point stands given the Nova's additional mobility over certain proposed counters is another issue but the remark is not a cop out.

[Fear Factory]

The context of that remark was in response to a claim by you that the 'Mech has maximum armor.  It doesn't.  Calling someone on an incorrect statement is not a cop out and terming it so verges on the disingenuous.  Further, the remark about chassis size is relevant when some of the proposed counters are much larger which means there's potentially significantly more armor in play.  It's an observation that the Clan machine's greater damage is going to get tied up burning through heavier armor.

Whether or not the point stands given the Nova's additional mobility over certain proposed counters is another issue but the remark is not a cop out.

Yeah, I did claim it.  I thought I was right.  I was wrong.  94% is just about there and it's armor is capable of taking a 15 point hit.  What's frustrating is when people complain about armor coverage like this, saying a medium with full armor is poor and frail simply because of the class restrictions it has to follow.  It can still take a beating and dish out more than what it can take.

(I'm not trying to insult or have an attitude)

[Fear Factory]

This is what basically started the whole argument before it became rock-paper-scissors:

I would in fact go so far as to say that, in general, the Inner Sphere has a technological advantage over the Clans in the current era.

What I'm really trying to say is that when it comes down to it, Inner Sphere technology is inferior to Clan Technology without a doubt.

There are maybe a handful of guns that the Inner Sphere have that can match the firepower of their Clan counterpart.  Gauss Rifle, LRM's, SRM's, Streak SRM's, Autocannons, Flamers and Machine Guns come to mind.  Everything but the Gauss Rifle has an increase in range (or loss of minimum range) which makes their weapons better if you play the range brackets.  The thing is, ALL of their weapons are much lighter allowing for much more.  Then you have Clan energy weapons which are just all-around better.

The Inner Sphere has tried to mimic Clan design concepts with the Rakshasa, Komodo, Penetrator, Black Hawk KU, and they all come up short (which is not me saying that the designs are not good) because of inferior weapons.  They are simply outclassed.  Fortunately, the Inner Sphere figured this out.  To take out Clan Tech, you have to use specialized machines filled with niche weapons and equipment, and this is where the Inner Sphere matches them if not outshines them.  They outnumber them and use weapons that fit their tactical doctrine (Different PPC's, Rotary AC's, C3, etc).  The technology is still inferior because any Clan weapon can replace it, however it is streamlined, which is something the Clans have failed to do for years.  Clan technology does not need to change it's their tactics and strategy that needs change.  This is where the Inner Sphere wins.

That's basically my opinion.  The Clans still have the technological advantage they just can't get their heads out of their butts.  #P

[Jaim Magnus]

This is starting to change however.  Strict adherence to zellbrigen is almost a thing of the past.  Once that goes out the window, all kinds of new tactics are possible for clan commanders. 

[Moonsword]

Yeah, I did claim it.  I thought I was right.  I was wrong.  94% is just about there and it's armor is capable of taking a 15 point hit.  What's frustrating is when people complain about armor coverage like this, saying a medium with full armor is poor and frail simply because of the class restrictions it has to follow.  It can still take a beating and dish out more than what it can take.

(I'm not trying to insult or have an attitude)

The armor is certainly fine for the size of the 'Mech, no arguing about that.  I'm just making the point that heavies are tougher, so if a Clan medium's dancing with them, the weapons advantage can be offset to a large degree.

[Stormfury]

So maybe you want to "relook" your opinion

The average Cluster has either an Elemental Trinary or a Supernova Binary and an Elemental Binary. 15-20 Points, for 75-100 Elementals.

In the 3060s, most Successor States are deploying two BA Companies (or the regional equivalent thereof) for 24 Squads apiece, leaving them with around 96 troopers per Regiment. Some have more, some have less. The Lyran Alliance were skimping on Battle Armour, but not everyone was.

I remember reading somewhere that the issue was that the Inner Sphere was having trouble finding bodies to fill the suits- the Clans turn out Elementals in batches, while the I.S has to recruit heavy set, big, people.

On the other hand, they have a population base hundreds, possibly even thousands of times larger than the Clans. As long as their recruitment protocols are allowing them to access those statistical outliers, filling the suits is not that much of a problem.

15 hex range, same as a Clan ERML.

I was talking about the Clan R-A/C-5, which I thought had a 6/12/18 profile. It has a 7/14/21 setup instead. My mistake.

Though I hasten to point out:

The HAG-30 requires at least 16 tons to be effective; the R-A/C-5 (Clan or IS) needs just 13. The HAG is, ultimately, another example of ATM-type technology; something new, but not better. The R-A/C, meanwhile, was both new and better than available weapons systems.

Do you forget that CASE comes standard so there is really no reason to worry about something like that?

You are more likely to have a location survive an R-A/C ammo explosion than to survive an LRM blowout due to the way ammo explosions work. This is a minor, but still significant point.

Don't even tell me that it's inferior to the Inner Sphere RAC.

It is an entirely different weapon system that does not add any new capacity to the existing Clan arsenal.

It's a different gun.  They didn't fix anything.  No one fixed anything.  The Clans at least made it lighter and made it shoot much further.

And in those 200 years, no-one thought to install backup circuits or a breach clearing mechanism, either or both of which are on the R-A/C?

A 7 damage hit is nothing to shrug off.  Are you saying the Large Laser has no merit?

No. That is what you are saying. Moonsword addressed the rest of this point, far more cordially than I am inclined to.

No.  Simply because nothing can fight like a Dire Wolf on the Inner Sphere side.  Ever.

Due to heat issues, the Akuma can deliver damage on par with the Dire Wolf Prime. The Devastator can tangle with the A and Widowmaker at range.

There are others (Pillager, Thunder Hawk, Emperor, etc) that also fit the bill, and which were manufactured within a decade of the Clans arriving.

What does that have to do with anything?  They employ Clan Tech with Inner Sphere standards and it hurts.  A lot.

The point is that it is one Galaxy, in a Clan that is supposed to have abandoned Zellbrigen against Inner Sphere forces any way. The simple fact that they have to be sequestered during battle and are ostracised any way is quite telling.

The Inner Sphere has tried to mimic Clan design concepts with the Rakshasa, Komodo, Penetrator, Black Hawk KU, and they all come up short (which is not me saying that the designs are not good) because of inferior weapons.

Of those examples, only the bolded two are correct. The Inner Sphere cannot copy the Timber Wolf's chassis or weapons load, but on the other hand only the Timber Wolf A is making full use of its capacities any way. The Komodo was designed specifically to wipe out Elementals, and its resemblance to the Nova is entirely coincidental. The Penetrator was intended to be a high-intensity fighter capable of extended operations, and an all-energy heavy is hardly a new concept (Marauder-3D, Lancelot, Flashman, etc). The Black Hawk KU is actually an improvement over the Nova chassis-wise, with better armour coverage and more pod space. While it does lose out on range and weapon mass efficiency, I would quite happily back the Black Hawk KU Prime against the Nova Prime.

What I'm really trying to say is that when it comes down to it, Inner Sphere technology is inferior to Clan Technology without a doubt.

On an item-by-item case, yes. In terms of design application or force-wide, the Inner Sphere is out in front by some distance.

This is starting to change however.  Strict adherence to zellbrigen is almost a thing of the past.  Once that goes out the window, all kinds of new tactics are possible for clan commanders. 

Even in the Dark Age, Zellbrigen (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) is the norm for the Clans, not the exception.

[Jaim Magnus]

Even in the Dark Age, Zellbrigen (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) is the norm for the Clans, not the exception.

Hence the use of 'almost.'

[Fear Factory]

The HAG-30 requires at least 16 tons to be effective; the R-A/C-5 (Clan or IS) needs just 13. The HAG is, ultimately, another example of ATM-type technology; something new, but not better. The R-A/C, meanwhile, was both new and better than available weapons systems.

Now that I think of it, the HAG-20 would probably be a better comparison.  While it can't cause the same max damage, if I remember correctly, it weighs the same and has decent ammo per ton and is probably up there with average damage.  HAG's can eat infantry too, I believe?

And in those 200 years, no-one thought to install backup circuits or a breach clearing mechanism, either or both of which are on the R-A/C?

Apparently not.   :D

No. That is what you are saying. Moonsword addressed the rest of this point, far more cordially than I am inclined to.

Ok.  (For the record, I'm not saying that 7 point hits are more effective than 15 and 10 point hits.  I am a fan of concentrated damage)

Due to heat issues, the Akuma can deliver damage on par with the Dire Wolf Prime. The Devastator can tangle with the A and Widowmaker at range.

There are others (Pillager, Thunder Hawk, Emperor, etc) that also fit the bill, and which were manufactured within a decade of the Clans arriving.

Of those examples, only the bolded two are correct. The Inner Sphere cannot copy the Timber Wolf's chassis or weapons load, but on the other hand only the Timber Wolf A is making full use of its capacities any way. The Komodo was designed specifically to wipe out Elementals, and its resemblance to the Nova is entirely coincidental. The Penetrator was intended to be a high-intensity fighter capable of extended operations, and an all-energy heavy is hardly a new concept (Marauder-3D, Lancelot, Flashman, etc). The Black Hawk KU is actually an improvement over the Nova chassis-wise, with better armour coverage and more pod space. While it does lose out on range and weapon mass efficiency, I would quite happily back the Black Hawk KU Prime against the Nova Prime.

The Akuma comes close but I'm still willing to bet that the Dire Wolf will come out on top almost every time.  God forbid the Dire Wolf rides the heat scale...  it packs a lot of power.  The only way the Inner Sphere can bring their raw power is by getting in point blank range, using C3 or spamming gauss rifles (Pillager, Devastator, etc).  Now they have a plethora of niche weapons that are just efficient as hell.

Considering your other examples, Clan OmniMechs usually have some decent backup for the Gauss (ER PPC or ER Large) which do outclass any of the backup weapons on any Inner Sphere design.  I wouldn't waste my time sniping at them though.  It's why I would be crazy enough to risk a Nova Prime or other powerful infighter up close against a chunker like the Devastator.

Also, the Black Hawk KU could be an improvement.  Only to do it they had to make it 10 tons more, 5 million more, complete with a frail IS XL engine and around half of the total firepower.  I'll shun the price tag cop-out because the Clans really don't pay attention to that.  While it's heavier and has more armor, it's more frail, due to its XL.  The Clan Nova can lose a side location and function a little bit longer.  There are much better applications of an IS XL engine, the Wraith being one of them.

The only real improvement is with Battle Value.  You can probably field two of them to take on one Nova Prime with standard Clan skills.  That's where the Nova will have trouble and it's an abstraction of the kind of tactics Clans have to deal with.  Even against other Inner Sphere powerhouses you listed, I'll have to consider the other targets, more than likely outnumbering me, that are going to stop me in my tracks.

On an item-by-item case, yes. In terms of design application or force-wide, the Inner Sphere is out in front by some distance.

Which is what I'm trying to say.  Clan weapons are just better, the problem is they can't figure out how to use them correctly.  This isn't their fault, however.  They just have a different fighting style.

[Moonsword]

Calling the Gauss rifle a niche weapon is a trifle harsh.  The only things it doesn't do are slice bread and kill infantry efficiently.

[Fear Factory]

Calling the Gauss rifle a niche weapon is a trifle harsh.  The only things it doesn't do are slice bread and kill infantry efficiently.

I wasn't referring to the gauss rifle.  More like the Snub-nose PPC and other new weapons.

[Stormfury]

Now that I think of it, the HAG-20 would probably be a better comparison.  While it can't cause the same max damage, if I remember correctly, it weighs the same and has decent ammo per ton and is probably up there with average damage.

No. It has 6 shots per ton of ammunition, meaning you still need at least two (I would prefer three or four) tons of ammunition to be safe. The average damage per shot across the range brackets is 12.77, which the R-A/C-5 can match at triple rate.

HAG's can eat infantry too, I believe?

No. They are a DB weapon, which means that they kill one trooper per cluster that hits.

Apparently not.

Which just strikes me as stupid beyond belief. It was OK as a conceit of the setting or game balance mechanism prior to the introduction of the R-A/C... now it doesn't make sense at all for either tech base.

The Akuma comes close but I'm still willing to bet that the Dire Wolf will come out on top almost every time.  God forbid the Dire Wolf rides the heat scale...  it packs a lot of power.  The only way the Inner Sphere can bring their raw power is by getting in point blank range, using C3 or spamming gauss rifles (Pillager, Devastator, etc).

The Inner Sphere is still more than capable of delivering equivalent damage to existing Clan designs. Yes, their weapons are not as effective... but the designs they have been producing use them in a far more optimum fashion than those of the Clans. For every really good Clan machine, the Inner Sphere has a number to counter with. And that's per House, not total.

Also, the Black Hawk KU could be an improvement.  Only to do it they had to make it 10 tons more, 5 million more, complete with a frail IS XL engine and around half of the total firepower.

That "frail" engine is better protected than the Nova's thanks to being 10 tons heavier. The price is rather irrelevant, given the fact that the Clans don't trade that way and the Inner Sphere pays a mark-up of between 3 and 5 times the base cost of the chassis and have trouble maintaining it. Although the overall firepower is lower, the Black Hawk KU can safely and repeatedly drop up to 54 damage per turn on its opponent, without overheating. Slightly more than the Nova Prime.

There's also the question of access to the design. The Nova is a rare machine for the Clans, out of production for over a century and never terribly popular in-character despite the frequency you see the Prime, S, or H on the tabletop at. The Black Hawk KU is in production at multiple factories and is popular to boot.

The only real improvement is with Battle Value.  You can probably field two of them to take on one Nova Prime with standard Clan skills.

At standard skills, yes. However, as I said, I would back a Black Hawk KU Prime one-on-one against the Nova Prime regardless.

hich is what I'm trying to say.  Clan weapons are just better, the problem is they can't figure out how to use them correctly.  This isn't their fault, however.  They just have a different fighting style.

It's not a tactical issue. It's a design issue. The Clans have gone three or four TRs without getting designs that make the kind of use of their technology the IS has been squeezing out of theirs.

There's a reason machines like the Nova Prime and S, Rifleman IIC and Dire Wolf A are being seen with increasing frequency in-game; those are the kinds of designs that need to be employed in order to attain parity with what the Inner Sphere is fielding, never mind superiority.

[Moonsword]

We're not seeing 'Mechs necessarily (although the Spheroid willing to tackle a Hellstar lightly is a complete idiot), but their tanks are getting significantly tougher in general (the Chalchiuhtotolin is an exception) and one (the Carnivore) is the kind of solid heavy MBT they've never had before.

As I said before, what the Clans can do if they choose to makes my inner Spheroid hide under the bed and weep in terror.

[Istal_Devalis]

Oh, we're definitely seeing mechs made to exploit Clan tech these days.

The Sphinx?: "Hey, let's exploit ERML spam while actually giving it enough heat sinks to fire all of them"

The Hellstar: "How many ERPPC's can we get a mech to safely fire in a turn?"

Getting some REALLY solid vehicles too.
The Balac is going to be FUN to use with a decent crew.  ER missiles on a speedy VTOL?  Most AA fire isnt going to be able to get it in range.

[Moonsword]

I suggest being very careful about positioning if you're doing that.  Several weapons - including ones commonly used for returning fire at sniper VTOLs - either can or can get close.  Most of them can get flak bonuses one way or another, which goes a long way to cutting your speed bonus back to size.  Since the usual offender right there is cluster ammo, which skips merrily past the rotor hit damage nerf (as does an SB Gauss), errors in positioning have a way of going wrong fast.

You're absolutely right that it's not going to be fun to deal with and a Balac (either the ATM 6 or the LRM 15 model) has an impressive throw weight.  I'm just advising due consideration be given to the weaknesses as well as the strengths of the type.

[Urban Kufahl]

The average Cluster has either an Elemental Trinary or a Supernova Binary and an Elemental Binary. 15-20 Points, for 75-100 Elementals.

In the 3060s, most Successor States are deploying two BA Companies (or the regional equivalent thereof) for 24 Squads apiece, leaving them with around 96 troopers per Regiment. Some have more, some have less. The Lyran Alliance were skimping on Battle Armour, but not everyone was.

What state ? Its not the LCAF, not the DCMS, not AFFC........FWLM ? they start production in 3059  :D

[Stormfury]

The Free Worlds League had standard-type Battle Armour by 3054 at the latest. In '55 they had the Achileus, and by '57 the Longinus. They are one of the largest producers of Battle Armour. It appears they were planning on 20 squad Companies (80 suits) to be attached to each front-line unit.

The Draconis Combine was attaching battalion-sized units of Battle Armour (36 Platoons, 144 suits) to front-line forces by '59, and units like the Izanagi Warriors were supported by full regiments (108 Platoons, 432 suits)) of Battle Armour.

The Federated Suns was attaching a Company (16 Squads, 64 suits) at minimum to their many RCTs, with other units receiving a Battalion (64 Squads, 256 suits).

Only the Lyrans and CapCon were deploying less, and even they were attaching double-digit troopers to most, if not all, Regiments.

[Carbon Elasmobranch]

On the subject of Clan Tech and its use in Battle Armor... was there a reason that Bearhunter Superheavy ACs were used in battlesuits when HMGs seem to be just as effective, if not a bit more so?

[Fear Factory]

On the subject of Clan Tech and its use in Battle Armor... was there a reason that Bearhunter Superheavy ACs were used in battlesuits when HMGs seem to be just as effective, if not a bit more so?

It's a weapon that shines in the RPG, not the board game, from what I understand.  However, I think it does 3d6 damage to infantry where the HMG does 2d6 because it is treated as a flamer.  Gives it some merit.

[Moonsword]

It's a weapon that shines in the RPG, not the board game, from what I understand.  However, I think it does 3d6 damage to infantry where the HMG does 2d6 because it is treated as a flamer.  Gives it some merit.

A bit, yes, but not a whole lot given the accuracy issue.

[Stormfury]

The Flamer and HMG both deliver 3D6 damage.

However good it may be in the RPG, BT-wise you are substantially better off with a Heavy Machine Gun instead of a Bearhunter, and if you can spare the 50kgs, the APGR puts both to shame.

[Fear Factory]

The Flamer and HMG both deliver 3D6 damage.

I don't know much about the RPG, however, in TW:

Burst Fire Weapons vs. Conventional Infantry Table

On BattleMechs/Protos/Vehicles, the HMG does 3d6 and the Flamer does 4d6.
On Battle Armor, the HMG does 2d6 and the Flamer does 3d6.  The Bearhunter (which would be exclusively in this category) is treated as a Flamer meaning it causes 3d6.

So if you are comparing the Bearhunter to the BattleMech/Proto/Vehicle HMG then you are correct.

[Moonsword]

Fear Factory is correct about the BA performance.

[Stormfury]

Ah. Was looking at the 'Mech-scale table.

[Carbon Elasmobranch]

Huh.  Never caught the effectiveness against infantry.

[Diplominator]

I think the idea that the clans had better technology but by and large didn't use it well was more or less true until 3085. The Carnivore, Flamberge (especially the 2 and 3), the Sphinx, and a lot of the Phoenix IICs are incredibly powerful compared to Inner Sphere units and make full use of all the clan advantages. The Ironhold is particularly relevant to the discussion. You can have a suit that is reasonably mobile for an assault, tough to kill, and well armed. Or, you can have a suit that is slow, but with twice the firepower and immunity to fire. A point of Ironhold (fire) suits will be slow without a dedicated transport, to be sure, but when they get where they are going nothing can ignore them safely. 

Inner Sphere suits can't match that. They might have the firepower, but not the range. They might have the firepower and the range, but certainly not the armor.

In addition, one reason it might seem like the IS has gotten all the good new suits is that the Clans essentially got it right on the first try. Once they tripled the range with the APGR, the Elemental was pretty much the best generalist suit possible. They tried improving it with the Thunderbird, and IMO it falls short.

[St.George]

No matter how I look at it,,Clan suits seem to have it over their IS counterparts(granted I'm no expert) there's just to many well made points to say otherwise.

[Moonsword]

Ah. Was looking at the 'Mech-scale table.

As a note, the APGR actually uses that table on BA.

[wantec]

There was a pretty good discussion going before the crash, but I found most (if not all of it) in the forum archives http://www.classicbattletech.com/forumarchive/index.php/topic,71774.0.html

[Sid]

It's a weapon that shines in the RPG, not the board game, from what I understand.  However, I think it does 3d6 damage to infantry where the HMG does 2d6 because it is treated as a flamer.  Gives it some merit.

I haven't checked the recent version for the Bearhunter yet, but in 3rd Edition, the Bearhunter had a much higher penetration rating over the HMG.  It's similar to comparing the old Rifles with the BAR rating to modern ACs.  Sure, the old rifles can deal damage, if it doesn't simply bounce off the armour due to being unable to penetrate the BAR rating. 

Harjel is also much more useful in the RPG.  Every time a suit is penetrated (damaged), it's armour rating (think BAR) degraded.  The lower the rating, the easier it was to hit and deal damage.  I.e, the more damage a suit took, the easier it was to damage.

Harjel eliminated the armour degration entirely.

Of course, you ran into issues where the larger weapons (Large lasers, PPCs, AC5 and 10s etc.) had such a high penetration value that they'd cut through the suits like a hot knife through butter.  I think it was 1 BT damage point equaled 1 Penetration value- so anything that dealt ten or more damage completely ignored the suit's armour values (the max armour was 10.  I think a Kanazuchi was 9/9/9/9 for Ballistic, Fire, Explosive etc.).

In other words, while a Kanazuchi could take a Gauss Rifle hit and continue along in the board game without seeming to be affected at all, in the RPG, the pilot was turned to ground hamburger.

No idea how it works in 4th Edition, however.

[Moonsword]

In other words, while a Kanazuchi could take a Gauss Rifle hit and continue along in the board game without seeming to be affected at all, in the board game, the pilot was turned to ground hamburger.

If by "without seeming to be affected at all" you mean "mother naked to so much as a five year old with a Kalashnikov", yes.

[Sid]

If by "without seeming to be affected at all" you mean "mother naked to so much as a five year old with a Kalashnikov", yes.

I mean the pilot isn't harmed.  There's no consciousness checks, no reduction in ability, the BA can still fire its medium laser or SRMs without penalty.

While vehicles can have their crew stunned or killed, and 'mech pilots can be wounded and knocked unconscious or killed, in the board game BA pilots are immune to damage until that last box is scratched out.

The same isn't true in the board game.  However, if you prefer, we can use an AC10 round instead of a Gauss Rifle for the example.  A Kanazuchi shot with an AC10 in the board game loses 66% of it's armour.  In the RPG, the pilot is turned into chunky salsa.

[Moonsword]

It's abstracted heavily to avoid having to track it individually for every member of the squad, which would rapidly turn into a pain in the neck due to varying fire modifiers or possibly breaking the squad up.  The board game doesn't exist on the same scale and therefore doesn't keep track of these things.

In addition, it sounds like it makes the heavier armor of suits like the Kanazuchi and even the Elemental pointless in the face of heavy weapons when a large part of what makes them so fearsome is that they can take hits like that and keep on coming.

[Urban Kufahl]

The Free Worlds League had standard-type Battle Armour by 3054 at the latest. In '55 they had the Achileus, and by '57 the Longinus. They are one of the largest producers of Battle Armour. It appears they were planning on 20 squad Companies (80 suits) to be attached to each front-line unit.

The Draconis Combine was attaching battalion-sized units of Battle Armour (36 Platoons, 144 suits) to front-line forces by '59, and units like the Izanagi Warriors were supported by full regiments (108 Platoons, 432 suits)) of Battle Armour.

The Federated Suns was attaching a Company (16 Squads, 64 suits) at minimum to their many RCTs, with other units receiving a Battalion (64 Squads, 256 suits).

Only the Lyrans and CapCon were deploying less, and even they were attaching double-digit troopers to most, if not all, Regiments.

Sorry not in 3060-3062
And a RCt = 1 Mech Rgt, 3 Armor Rgt, 5 infantry Rgt, 1 Wing and 1 Arty Btn  :D

Force the Izanagi's Warrior the BA regiment was on shedule for 3063

[Stormfury]

Although I appreciate that English is not your first language, I suggest you have a look at what I posted and what the source material says.

I said "during the 3060s", not "in 3062-63."

FM: FS has an in-universe date of 3062, and p. 22 says that "the High Command has assigned most infantry regiments attached to an RCT at least a company of battle armour, and several RCTs even field independant battalions. A number of independant Regular Army 'Mech regiments have also been assigned battle armour support..."

The AFFS is primarily composed of RCT formations.

FM: DC has an in-universe date of 3059, and p. 81 notes that the Izanagi Warriors will have their BA support by 3060, within a year.

No matter how I look at it,,Clan suits seem to have it over their IS counterparts(granted I'm no expert) there's just to many well made points to say otherwise.

In terms of killing other infantry (armoured or otherwise), Clan BA is generally better. In terms of supporting other units or general usefulness, IS BA has it all over the Clans.

[Fear Factory]

The Elemental?  First battle armor design produced by the Clans and it is still going strong.

[St.George]

you got that right,,,the standard BA can still hold it's own againts alot of newcomers.

[Moonsword]

you got that right,,,the standard BA can still hold it's own againts alot of newcomers.

One reason I think the APGR option was smart - it handed the Elemental the tools to secure that position for a long time to come.

[Urban Kufahl]

Although I appreciate that English is not your first language, I suggest you have a look at what I posted and what the source material says.

I said "during the 3060s", not "in 3062-63."

FM: FS has an in-universe date of 3062, and p. 22 says that "the High Command has assigned most infantry regiments attached to an RCT at least a company of battle armour, and several RCTs even field independant battalions. A number of independant Regular Army 'Mech regiments have also been assigned battle armour support..."

The AFFS is primarily composed of RCT formations.

FM: DC has an in-universe date of 3059, and p. 81 notes that the Izanagi Warriors will have their BA support by 3060, within a year.

In terms of killing other infantry (armoured or otherwise), Clan BA is generally better. In terms of supporting other units or general usefulness, IS BA has it all over the Clans.

When you read carefully the deployement tables you can't find any trace of so much BA forces. Of course when you remove the "if" and the "planned" of the equation everything become possible  ;)

Izanagi Warrior's 3067 = 1 BA Btn it's still far from a full Rgt

[Sid]

When you read carefully the deployement tables you can't find any trace of so much BA forces. Of course when you remove the "if" and the "planned" of the equation everything become possible  ;)

Izanagi Warrior's 3067 = 1 BA Btn it's still far from a full Rgt

Well I'm convinced.

[Stormfury]

When you read carefully the deployement tables you can't find any trace of so much BA forces.

Because only units deviating from the norm established in the Force Composition section of each Field Manual receive notes in their full listings.

Izanagi Warrior's 3067 = 1 BA Btn it's still far from a full Rgt Izanagi Warrior's 3067 = 1 BA Btn it's still far from a full Rgt

And they were involved in Bulldog, between which and the Fominion War the Combine lost something like 20 Regiments of pure force.

There is no if or planned about it; the average IS Regiment is deploying around as much BA support as the average Clan Cluster.

[Fear Factory]

you got that right,,,the standard BA can still hold it's own againts alot of newcomers.

Heck yes.  Not to mention, if you really want to tear up enemy OmniMechs, pack some Gnomes.  The Clans may not have assault armor with dual medium lasers but they know what they need to do to get the job done.  Case in point, the Sylph is just MEAN against other battle armor due to the Bomb Rack.  Not to mention the powerful Corona and Golem...  who boy.

[Moonsword]

The Ironhold's variant does an excellent job of meeting the Kopis's challenge in my opinion.  Not quite as concentrated as the twin MLs but the APGRs will also shred infantry and the armor is a heck of a lot better.

[Stormfury]

The Corona's MPL is nice, but its speed and armour are inferior to similar IS armours like the Tengu or Grenadier. The Golem could have been infinitely better without the Bearhunters.

The potential is there, but it is largely unrealised. The primary advantage of Elemental suits over IS medium battle armour is their jump movement withe the SRM and a point of armour, but an increasing number of IS BAs are using Stealth armour.

[wantec]

The Corona's MPL is nice, but its speed and armour are inferior to similar IS armours like the Tengu or Grenadier. The Golem could have been infinitely better without the Bearhunters.

The potential is there, but it is largely unrealised. The primary advantage of Elemental suits over IS medium battle armour is their jump movement withe the SRM and a point of armour, but an increasing number of IS BAs are using Stealth armour.

In this case the pulse modifier of the MPL will help the Corona counter the Stealth/Mimetic armors on IS suits, and the range advantage is huge, most IS suits can't reach out past 6 hexes, much less 8 or 12. While it may not have a lot of armor, a 7 point hit will take out some IS suits and all except the most armored assault suits will go down to a second MPL hit.

[St.George]

Heck yes.  Not to mention, if you really want to tear up enemy OmniMechs, pack some Gnomes.  The Clans may not have assault armor with dual medium lasers but they know what they need to do to get the job done.  Case in point, the Sylph is just MEAN against other battle armor due to the Bomb Rack.  Not to mention the powerful Corona and Golem...  who boy.

I've used the Sylph a couple times and it just kicks ass with a full bomb load,,,clears out a nice LZ    ;D

[Hellraiser]

Sorry not in 3060-3062
And a RCt = 1 Mech Rgt, 3 Armor Rgt, 5 infantry Rgt, 1 Wing 2+ Wings and 1 Arty Btn  :D

There fixed that for you.
Also, FYI, the MM RCTs are short tanks since they only use 2 Regiments & a single company of Arty.
Not that it matters in relation to BA but nice to remember they are a tad smaller.

[Hellraiser]

FM: FS has an in-universe date of 3062, and p. 22 says that "the High Command has assigned most infantry regiments attached to an RCT at least a company of battle armour, and several RCTs even field independant battalions. A number of independant Regular Army 'Mech regiments have also been assigned battle armour support..." 

So I want to clarify.
Per that statement, each infantry REGIMENT (5 per RCT) has a full company of BA ?
So a "Typical" RCT will have 5 companies of BA as well as a the possibility of a full independant battalion.
Which would be a total of 9 companies of BA or a full regiment for some factions (Merc/DC ?)

Now I'm seeing how the LCT's were able to come up with full BA Regiments to use.

[St.George]

aye Hell,,,also depends on what equipment that RCT has,,,,,a Arm unit might have to swaped out with other units(such as lt armor or apc's) and arty,,,,seems to allways some kind of replacment if siad equipment isnt on-hand.
your numbers on the BA stand correct,,,but to field all that BA in one area would take some doin',,,even if your comanding officer let you have that many assets to throw into one pitched battle

[Davion_Boy_74]

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before in this topic thread, I recall that it was mentioned that there were "older" (Clan) Battle Armor suit designs that were specialized for specific combat roles and environments, - see field manual : warden clans page 186 for full text.

I do not ever recall seeing this mentioned again perhaps it was a "throw away line" or it has been forgotten / over looked. I certainly would like to see these Battle Armor units even if they are just over specialized Elemental suits, and again I would love to see the early Clan Goliath Scorpion under water industrial exoskeleton suits that were developed into the elemental suit design.

Dave.

[Stormfury]

I suspect those would have been along the lines of Marine battle armour and things like the Undine, with the odd BA trading in Jump packs for additional weapons and ground MP. The Clans don't seem to have built anything larger than the Elemental suit, with the first known Heavy and Assault BAs being of Inner Sphere manufacture.

[Moonsword]

I do not ever recall seeing this mentioned again perhaps it was a "throw away line" or it has been forgotten / over looked. I certainly would like to see these Battle Armor units even if they are just over specialized Elemental suits, and again I would love to see the early Clan Goliath Scorpion under water industrial exoskeleton suits that were developed into the elemental suit design.

Dave.

It's revisited in Golden Century but again without any particular details.  The implications are that they're basically specialists to the Elemental's generalist design, perhaps not as advanced.

[Davion_Boy_74]

OH Thanks I'll did my copy of that out off my HD & have another closer read, I missed that first time read.

Dave.

[ColBosch]

I had thought that they were likely slightly modified Nighthawks, but no, there's no canonical stats (or names, or even descriptions) yet.

[Moonsword]

I had thought that they were likely slightly modified Nighthawks, but no, there's no canonical stats (or names, or even descriptions) yet.

I'm... not entirely sure I'd go down that path.  They're apparently derived from the Scorpion exoskeletons.  I suspect those exoskeletons may be derived in turn from some of the advances in the Nighthawk program, but the degree of separation imposed by differing roles/environments and no need for stealth may be part of what pushed the early armors toward the path that wound up with a larger, more generalist suit design.

[St.George]

Don't know where I read it from,,,but wasn't most early suits that was derived from the GS deepwater Exo-siut just specialized BA,,,,until the Wolfs made the standard suit?   ???
Now that's there special BA for Eley's,,isn't it just remakes from past designs that was put-a'side in the early days?   ;D

[Moonsword]

The Wolves made the first battle armor based on those deep water exoskeletons, and then the concept proliferated until all the Clans basically settled on the generalist Elemental suit.  After that, Clan battle armor development basically stagnated until the Invasion and you start seeing things like the Star Adders pushing the curve a bit with the Corona program and the Scorpions had evidently been tinkering with the underlying concepts for the Undine for some time.