Canon Clan BA?

[Fear Factory]

The Flamer and HMG both deliver 3D6 damage.

I don't know much about the RPG, however, in TW:

Burst Fire Weapons vs. Conventional Infantry Table

On BattleMechs/Protos/Vehicles, the HMG does 3d6 and the Flamer does 4d6.
On Battle Armor, the HMG does 2d6 and the Flamer does 3d6.  The Bearhunter (which would be exclusively in this category) is treated as a Flamer meaning it causes 3d6.

So if you are comparing the Bearhunter to the BattleMech/Proto/Vehicle HMG then you are correct.

[Moonsword]

Fear Factory is correct about the BA performance.

[Stormfury]

Ah. Was looking at the 'Mech-scale table.

[Carbon Elasmobranch]

Huh.  Never caught the effectiveness against infantry.

[Diplominator]

I think the idea that the clans had better technology but by and large didn't use it well was more or less true until 3085. The Carnivore, Flamberge (especially the 2 and 3), the Sphinx, and a lot of the Phoenix IICs are incredibly powerful compared to Inner Sphere units and make full use of all the clan advantages. The Ironhold is particularly relevant to the discussion. You can have a suit that is reasonably mobile for an assault, tough to kill, and well armed. Or, you can have a suit that is slow, but with twice the firepower and immunity to fire. A point of Ironhold (fire) suits will be slow without a dedicated transport, to be sure, but when they get where they are going nothing can ignore them safely. 

Inner Sphere suits can't match that. They might have the firepower, but not the range. They might have the firepower and the range, but certainly not the armor.

In addition, one reason it might seem like the IS has gotten all the good new suits is that the Clans essentially got it right on the first try. Once they tripled the range with the APGR, the Elemental was pretty much the best generalist suit possible. They tried improving it with the Thunderbird, and IMO it falls short.

[St.George]

No matter how I look at it,,Clan suits seem to have it over their IS counterparts(granted I'm no expert) there's just to many well made points to say otherwise.

[Moonsword]

Ah. Was looking at the 'Mech-scale table.

As a note, the APGR actually uses that table on BA.

[wantec]

There was a pretty good discussion going before the crash, but I found most (if not all of it) in the forum archives http://www.classicbattletech.com/forumarchive/index.php/topic,71774.0.html

[Sid]

It's a weapon that shines in the RPG, not the board game, from what I understand.  However, I think it does 3d6 damage to infantry where the HMG does 2d6 because it is treated as a flamer.  Gives it some merit.

I haven't checked the recent version for the Bearhunter yet, but in 3rd Edition, the Bearhunter had a much higher penetration rating over the HMG.  It's similar to comparing the old Rifles with the BAR rating to modern ACs.  Sure, the old rifles can deal damage, if it doesn't simply bounce off the armour due to being unable to penetrate the BAR rating. 

Harjel is also much more useful in the RPG.  Every time a suit is penetrated (damaged), it's armour rating (think BAR) degraded.  The lower the rating, the easier it was to hit and deal damage.  I.e, the more damage a suit took, the easier it was to damage.

Harjel eliminated the armour degration entirely.

Of course, you ran into issues where the larger weapons (Large lasers, PPCs, AC5 and 10s etc.) had such a high penetration value that they'd cut through the suits like a hot knife through butter.  I think it was 1 BT damage point equaled 1 Penetration value- so anything that dealt ten or more damage completely ignored the suit's armour values (the max armour was 10.  I think a Kanazuchi was 9/9/9/9 for Ballistic, Fire, Explosive etc.).

In other words, while a Kanazuchi could take a Gauss Rifle hit and continue along in the board game without seeming to be affected at all, in the RPG, the pilot was turned to ground hamburger.

No idea how it works in 4th Edition, however.

[Moonsword]

In other words, while a Kanazuchi could take a Gauss Rifle hit and continue along in the board game without seeming to be affected at all, in the board game, the pilot was turned to ground hamburger.

If by "without seeming to be affected at all" you mean "mother naked to so much as a five year old with a Kalashnikov", yes.

[Sid]

If by "without seeming to be affected at all" you mean "mother naked to so much as a five year old with a Kalashnikov", yes.

I mean the pilot isn't harmed.  There's no consciousness checks, no reduction in ability, the BA can still fire its medium laser or SRMs without penalty.

While vehicles can have their crew stunned or killed, and 'mech pilots can be wounded and knocked unconscious or killed, in the board game BA pilots are immune to damage until that last box is scratched out.

The same isn't true in the board game.  However, if you prefer, we can use an AC10 round instead of a Gauss Rifle for the example.  A Kanazuchi shot with an AC10 in the board game loses 66% of it's armour.  In the RPG, the pilot is turned into chunky salsa.

[Moonsword]

It's abstracted heavily to avoid having to track it individually for every member of the squad, which would rapidly turn into a pain in the neck due to varying fire modifiers or possibly breaking the squad up.  The board game doesn't exist on the same scale and therefore doesn't keep track of these things.

In addition, it sounds like it makes the heavier armor of suits like the Kanazuchi and even the Elemental pointless in the face of heavy weapons when a large part of what makes them so fearsome is that they can take hits like that and keep on coming.

[Urban Kufahl]

The Free Worlds League had standard-type Battle Armour by 3054 at the latest. In '55 they had the Achileus, and by '57 the Longinus. They are one of the largest producers of Battle Armour. It appears they were planning on 20 squad Companies (80 suits) to be attached to each front-line unit.

The Draconis Combine was attaching battalion-sized units of Battle Armour (36 Platoons, 144 suits) to front-line forces by '59, and units like the Izanagi Warriors were supported by full regiments (108 Platoons, 432 suits)) of Battle Armour.

The Federated Suns was attaching a Company (16 Squads, 64 suits) at minimum to their many RCTs, with other units receiving a Battalion (64 Squads, 256 suits).

Only the Lyrans and CapCon were deploying less, and even they were attaching double-digit troopers to most, if not all, Regiments.

Sorry not in 3060-3062
And a RCt = 1 Mech Rgt, 3 Armor Rgt, 5 infantry Rgt, 1 Wing and 1 Arty Btn  :D

Force the Izanagi's Warrior the BA regiment was on shedule for 3063

[Stormfury]

Although I appreciate that English is not your first language, I suggest you have a look at what I posted and what the source material says.

I said "during the 3060s", not "in 3062-63."

FM: FS has an in-universe date of 3062, and p. 22 says that "the High Command has assigned most infantry regiments attached to an RCT at least a company of battle armour, and several RCTs even field independant battalions. A number of independant Regular Army 'Mech regiments have also been assigned battle armour support..."

The AFFS is primarily composed of RCT formations.

FM: DC has an in-universe date of 3059, and p. 81 notes that the Izanagi Warriors will have their BA support by 3060, within a year.

No matter how I look at it,,Clan suits seem to have it over their IS counterparts(granted I'm no expert) there's just to many well made points to say otherwise.

In terms of killing other infantry (armoured or otherwise), Clan BA is generally better. In terms of supporting other units or general usefulness, IS BA has it all over the Clans.

[Fear Factory]

The Elemental?  First battle armor design produced by the Clans and it is still going strong.

[St.George]

you got that right,,,the standard BA can still hold it's own againts alot of newcomers.

[Moonsword]

you got that right,,,the standard BA can still hold it's own againts alot of newcomers.

One reason I think the APGR option was smart - it handed the Elemental the tools to secure that position for a long time to come.

[Urban Kufahl]

Although I appreciate that English is not your first language, I suggest you have a look at what I posted and what the source material says.

I said "during the 3060s", not "in 3062-63."

FM: FS has an in-universe date of 3062, and p. 22 says that "the High Command has assigned most infantry regiments attached to an RCT at least a company of battle armour, and several RCTs even field independant battalions. A number of independant Regular Army 'Mech regiments have also been assigned battle armour support..."

The AFFS is primarily composed of RCT formations.

FM: DC has an in-universe date of 3059, and p. 81 notes that the Izanagi Warriors will have their BA support by 3060, within a year.

In terms of killing other infantry (armoured or otherwise), Clan BA is generally better. In terms of supporting other units or general usefulness, IS BA has it all over the Clans.

When you read carefully the deployement tables you can't find any trace of so much BA forces. Of course when you remove the "if" and the "planned" of the equation everything become possible  ;)

Izanagi Warrior's 3067 = 1 BA Btn it's still far from a full Rgt

[Sid]

When you read carefully the deployement tables you can't find any trace of so much BA forces. Of course when you remove the "if" and the "planned" of the equation everything become possible  ;)

Izanagi Warrior's 3067 = 1 BA Btn it's still far from a full Rgt

Well I'm convinced.

[Stormfury]

When you read carefully the deployement tables you can't find any trace of so much BA forces.

Because only units deviating from the norm established in the Force Composition section of each Field Manual receive notes in their full listings.

Izanagi Warrior's 3067 = 1 BA Btn it's still far from a full Rgt Izanagi Warrior's 3067 = 1 BA Btn it's still far from a full Rgt

And they were involved in Bulldog, between which and the Fominion War the Combine lost something like 20 Regiments of pure force.

There is no if or planned about it; the average IS Regiment is deploying around as much BA support as the average Clan Cluster.

[Fear Factory]

you got that right,,,the standard BA can still hold it's own againts alot of newcomers.

Heck yes.  Not to mention, if you really want to tear up enemy OmniMechs, pack some Gnomes.  The Clans may not have assault armor with dual medium lasers but they know what they need to do to get the job done.  Case in point, the Sylph is just MEAN against other battle armor due to the Bomb Rack.  Not to mention the powerful Corona and Golem...  who boy.

[Moonsword]

The Ironhold's variant does an excellent job of meeting the Kopis's challenge in my opinion.  Not quite as concentrated as the twin MLs but the APGRs will also shred infantry and the armor is a heck of a lot better.

[Stormfury]

The Corona's MPL is nice, but its speed and armour are inferior to similar IS armours like the Tengu or Grenadier. The Golem could have been infinitely better without the Bearhunters.

The potential is there, but it is largely unrealised. The primary advantage of Elemental suits over IS medium battle armour is their jump movement withe the SRM and a point of armour, but an increasing number of IS BAs are using Stealth armour.

[wantec]

The Corona's MPL is nice, but its speed and armour are inferior to similar IS armours like the Tengu or Grenadier. The Golem could have been infinitely better without the Bearhunters.

The potential is there, but it is largely unrealised. The primary advantage of Elemental suits over IS medium battle armour is their jump movement withe the SRM and a point of armour, but an increasing number of IS BAs are using Stealth armour.

In this case the pulse modifier of the MPL will help the Corona counter the Stealth/Mimetic armors on IS suits, and the range advantage is huge, most IS suits can't reach out past 6 hexes, much less 8 or 12. While it may not have a lot of armor, a 7 point hit will take out some IS suits and all except the most armored assault suits will go down to a second MPL hit.

[St.George]

Heck yes.  Not to mention, if you really want to tear up enemy OmniMechs, pack some Gnomes.  The Clans may not have assault armor with dual medium lasers but they know what they need to do to get the job done.  Case in point, the Sylph is just MEAN against other battle armor due to the Bomb Rack.  Not to mention the powerful Corona and Golem...  who boy.

I've used the Sylph a couple times and it just kicks ass with a full bomb load,,,clears out a nice LZ    ;D

[Hellraiser]

Sorry not in 3060-3062
And a RCt = 1 Mech Rgt, 3 Armor Rgt, 5 infantry Rgt, 1 Wing 2+ Wings and 1 Arty Btn  :D

There fixed that for you.
Also, FYI, the MM RCTs are short tanks since they only use 2 Regiments & a single company of Arty.
Not that it matters in relation to BA but nice to remember they are a tad smaller.

[Hellraiser]

FM: FS has an in-universe date of 3062, and p. 22 says that "the High Command has assigned most infantry regiments attached to an RCT at least a company of battle armour, and several RCTs even field independant battalions. A number of independant Regular Army 'Mech regiments have also been assigned battle armour support..." 

So I want to clarify.
Per that statement, each infantry REGIMENT (5 per RCT) has a full company of BA ?
So a "Typical" RCT will have 5 companies of BA as well as a the possibility of a full independant battalion.
Which would be a total of 9 companies of BA or a full regiment for some factions (Merc/DC ?)

Now I'm seeing how the LCT's were able to come up with full BA Regiments to use.

[St.George]

aye Hell,,,also depends on what equipment that RCT has,,,,,a Arm unit might have to swaped out with other units(such as lt armor or apc's) and arty,,,,seems to allways some kind of replacment if siad equipment isnt on-hand.
your numbers on the BA stand correct,,,but to field all that BA in one area would take some doin',,,even if your comanding officer let you have that many assets to throw into one pitched battle

[Davion_Boy_74]

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before in this topic thread, I recall that it was mentioned that there were "older" (Clan) Battle Armor suit designs that were specialized for specific combat roles and environments, - see field manual : warden clans page 186 for full text.

I do not ever recall seeing this mentioned again perhaps it was a "throw away line" or it has been forgotten / over looked. I certainly would like to see these Battle Armor units even if they are just over specialized Elemental suits, and again I would love to see the early Clan Goliath Scorpion under water industrial exoskeleton suits that were developed into the elemental suit design.

Dave.

[Stormfury]

I suspect those would have been along the lines of Marine battle armour and things like the Undine, with the odd BA trading in Jump packs for additional weapons and ground MP. The Clans don't seem to have built anything larger than the Elemental suit, with the first known Heavy and Assault BAs being of Inner Sphere manufacture.