The Go vote

[joechummer]

Something I've been thinking about:

Long before the arrival of the Outbound Light at Huntress in 3048, all of the Clans were pretty evenly split across Warden/Crusader lines.  However, when the Grand Council vote to invade the Inner Sphere came, 32 of the Khans voted for the motion, and only the 2 Wolf Khans went against the grain.  What I'd like to know is why all of the many Warden-leaning Clans voted FOR an invasion their political beliefs told them was wrong?  I can think of a few possible justifications, (such as the Diamond Sharks looking to tap new markets in the Inner Sphere, or the Steel Vipers hoping to enact their unique plan for the Star League's rebirth), but that's about it.

Any thoughts?

[Stormfury]

Leo Showers claimed that the Federated Commonwealth would re-establish the Star League before the Clans had the opportunity to do so and that the Inner Sphere either knew where the Homeworlds were or would in the very near future.

In the end, he sold it to the other Khans as their best or only chance to fulfill Kerensky's vision.

[Rainbow 6]

True enough, the other Khans probably thought all the clans would take part in the invasion as well.

[Jaim Magnus]

Basically, like many good politicians, Leo Showers used fear tactics to get what he wanted.

[SteveRestless]

Well, I suspect the Golliath Scorpions could have been persuaded that it presents a chance to Seek.

[Alan Grant]

Leo Showers claimed that the Federated Commonwealth would re-establish the Star League before the Clans had the opportunity to do so and that the Inner Sphere either knew where the Homeworlds were or would in the very near future.

In the end, he sold it to the other Khans as their best or only chance to fulfill Kerensky's vision.

This was the canon stated reason. Particularly the threat of discovery by the Inner Sphere. Leo Showers created this feeling in the air that Clan society might be discovered at any time. The clock had run out and they needed to move. It was fear-mongering 101.

[Iron Wolf]

What I'd like to know is why all of the many Warden-leaning Clans voted FOR an invasion their political beliefs told them was wrong?

The Warden ideology was always full of nonsense. The Wardens sat on their hands and lectured the Crusaders while the Successor States annihilated each other. All that talk about protecting and guiding the IS from the outside went south as soon as there was a perceived threat to the home worlds.

[Jaim Magnus]

When you get right down to it, both the Crusader and Warden philosophies are ridiculous.
The Clans are a warrior society.  They NEED battles.  That's their PURPOSE.
Attacking the Inner Sphere, or opposing those who do, leads to more battles and justifies their existence.

[Alan Grant]

Philosophy goes out the window when you feel threatened. Pulling the fear card makes even enemies come together. It causes people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. That's human nature in general, not just the Clans. Leo Showers understood this and used it.

[joechummer]

Okay, so what about the Coyotes?  They follow the Wolves around (politically) like lost puppies, and the Wolf/Coyote bloc dominated the Grand Council for most of Clan history.  Yet, even THEY voted for the invasion.  What gives?

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

I will note that the Scorpions, per their FM entry, voted based on a coin toss.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

Okay, so what about the Coyotes?  They follow the Wolves around (politically) like lost puppies, and the Wolf/Coyote bloc dominated the Grand Council for most of Clan history.  Yet, even THEY voted for the invasion.  What gives?

well by this time the 'yotes had lost a lot of power, so they probably voted with the Crusaders so that they could look good, and maybe get back into a position of power. The last thing a weak(er) clan wants to do is be unpopluar.

[SteveRestless]

I think the real reason is that when the fact about the wolves being the only resistance was set, is because none of the home clans had received a lot of detail yet. the part about the coyotes following the wolves came after

[Stormlion1]

I think the real reason is that when the fact about the wolves being the only resistance was set, is because none of the home clans had received a lot of detail yet. the part about the coyotes following the wolves came after

It was probably done this way to make the Wolves look better and all the Clans that voted yes to look more warlike. It made the Wolves more likable and more of the white hat.

[Blacknova]

CLOUD COBRAS
FM:WC p.23
"Khan Din Steiner steadfastly refused to hear Cobra warriors who longed for a return to the Inner Sphere.  SaKhan Leighton Khatib...believed that the way led with the Jaguar Khan...In the end,the saKhan prevailed. The trus way made itself known to our Khan..."

Sounds like the Cobras came over due to internal politicking and point scoring.

COYOTES
FM:WC p.23 and and 43
From the CC section:
Seeing this change of heart [by the cobras]most of the few Khans who doubted, voted in favour of the invasion.

From the Coyote Section
The Warden's power in the Grand Council finally crumbleded, allowing showers invasion motion to pass.

It would appear that the Coyotes lost heart and gave up the fight after the other Wardens turned.

GOLIATH SCORPION
FM:WC p.107
The Scorpions caste thier vote with a coin toss to show thier disdain for showers' political brinkmanship.

SNOW RAVEN
FM:WC p.120
...if one vessel could chance upon the homeworlds, others could surely do so. Therefore, even though we cared little for the Crusaders' irrational conviction that easily defeat and subsume the Inner Sphere, we had little choice but to support Leo Shower's call for invasion. To do otherwise risked the arrival of Inner Sphere armies in our territory.

Based on later events, this may have just been a pragmatic shot at seeing the chance to rent out the fleet.

STEEL VIPER
FM:WC p.138
With the apparent discovery of our homeworlds by forces of the Inner Sphere, our Khans chose to support the call for invasion.

[Nibs]

When you get right down to it, both the Crusader and Warden philosophies are ridiculous.
The Clans are a warrior society.  They NEED battles.  That's their PURPOSE.
Attacking the Inner Sphere, or opposing those who do, leads to more battles and justifies their existence.

I think Jaim's on the right track. Beneath any Warden exterior, they are still warriors, and they still need to fight. Even the slightest of justifications would have provoked thoughts of a war enough to sate every Clan warrior.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Basically, like many good politicians, Leo Showers used fear tactics to get what he wanted.

It was fear-mongering 101.

It's not like there was much to do. The Clan intel mission stopped reporting back in 3019, and thus the Clans on the whole were ignorant of the Federated Commonwealth, the mauling that state delivered on the Confederation, and one attempt to give the same to the Combine in 3039. The possibility of a Steiner-Davion First Lord was a very real concern. Combine that with teh interrogations of the ComStar crew, who certainly revealed that they were part of an organization called the Explorer Corps- and there were likely to be more intrusions, and #@%& just got real for the Clans, son.

[Neufeld]

Make me wonder if the invasion had been less likely to get votes if the Dragoons had kept sending intelligence reports.

[Stormfury]

Considering that only Clans Wolf and Star Adder were actually paying attention to them?

I doubt it. The Adders were Crusaders, wanted in and took it seriously. The Wolves were never going to change their vote.

It took the Outbound Light to act as a catalyst for the renewed Invasion calls. I don't think the formation of the FedCom would have been enough in and of itself to trigger the Invasion, though the War of 3039 might have put them on high alert. Even then they are not likely to have acted before 3049.

[joechummer]

I doubt it. The Adders were Crusaders, wanted in and took it seriously. The Wolves were never going to change their vote.

If the Adders "wanted in and took it seriously," why did they purposely bid low in the placement trials for invasion theaters just so they could stay home?

[Jaim Magnus]

If the Adders "wanted in and took it seriously," why did they purposely bid low in the placement trials for invasion theaters just so they could stay home?

Because they were one of the few Clans who expected that a greater number of forces would be needed.  They were unwilling to bid lower than they felt was necessary.

[joechummer]

Because they were one of the few Clans who expected that a greater number of forces would be needed.  They were unwilling to bid lower than they felt was necessary.

So you're saying they bid low because they thought the Clans that went would just destroy themselves because they weren't sending enough troops?

I though they bid low because they wanted to stay home and consolidate their power in the homeworlds while the big dogs were away?

[Jaim Magnus]

Technically they bid high.  They were unwilling to lower their bid to the levels of the other Clans.  Consolidating power in the homeworlds was something that came after the Burrock absorption.  Over a decade AFTER the go vote.

[Stormfury]

Per FM: CC, the Star Adders bid high because they knew more force would be needed than otherClans were sending to have a realistic chance at achieving the aims of Revival. At the time they were only a mid-sized Clan.

When they were eliminated during the bidding, they decided to consolidate their Homeworld position, culminating in the Burrock Absorbtion and their late-50s strength.

[joechummer]

When they were eliminated during the bidding

Er, didn't all of the Clans -- except the Wolves -- participate in the placement trials for invasion theaters?

If this is not the case, then who didn't even make it to the actual combat rounds of the placement trials?

[Stormfury]

No. There was a round of bidding to determine who would get into the combat trials. We have no firm data on who else was in the trials (apart from the Invading Clans and the Nova Cats, Diamond Sharks, and Steel Vipers), only that the Star Adders were eliminated during the bidding process that preceeded the trials.

[Alan Grant]

The Cloud Cobras withdrew themselves from the Trials, despite voting yes to invasion.

[joechummer]

No. There was a round of bidding to determine who would get into the combat trials. We have no firm data on who else was in the trials (apart from the Invading Clans and the Nova Cats, Diamond Sharks, and Steel Vipers), only that the Star Adders were eliminated during the bidding process that preceeded the trials.

I know the Mandrills fought in a few rounds at least.  And they fought with 'Mechs that were still battle-damaged from their inter-Kindraa war that took place right after the go vote.  They won skirmishes here and there but were (obviously) beaten overall.

I wonder how well they would've done if given the chance to fully repair their equipment before taking to the field...

[joechummer]

My biggest curiosity was how the placement trials were conducted -- questions along the lines of:

1) Was it a double-elimination seeded tournament, a round-robin, or something else entirely?
2) How many rounds were there?  We know there were at least two, based on the FM:CC description of how the Ice Hellions were knocked out in the second round. Does this mean there were only two rounds?
3)  What were the requirements for winning or being taken out of the competition?  Using the previous reference, did the Hellions lose in the second round because they didn't score high enough to continue?  Or was it because all of their units had been destroyed and couldn't continue to subsequent rounds?
4) How big were the forces committed to the placement trials?
5) Were the forces fielded in the trials proportional to the forces bid for the invasion (e.g. A Clan bids 5 Galaxies and fights in a given round using 5 Clusters or 5 Trinaries, or maybe just 5 Stars...?)

[Stormfury]

Well, aside from the factually correct but generally unhelpful "we don't know?"

The Clans do not use double-elimination or round robin tournaments for anything. All Trials, for Position, Bloodright, or whatever else, are winner-takes-all.

As with the Cloud Cobras, some Clans, probably the Wardens, would have deliberately thrown the bidding and avoided the trials entirely. Given that seven Clans wound up in the Sphere, I would expect somewhere between ten and fourteen of the remaining 17 Clans to have been involved in the battle round(s), with one round fought to determine who the Invaders would be and a second round fought by the winners to determine corridors. At the same time as that second round, the losers of the first may have had a go at obtaining a reserve slot, which apparently the Vipers occupied.

I would expect that the forces dispatched would have come from the Clans' most elite Cluster or Keshik, and to have been no more than a Cluster in size at most. Probably on the order of two Binaries or Trinaries, really.

[joechummer]

Well, aside from the factually correct but generally unhelpful "we don't know?"

The Clans do not use double-elimination or round robin tournaments for anything. All Trials, for Position, Bloodright, or whatever else, are winner-takes-all.

As with the Cloud Cobras, some Clans, probably the Wardens, would have deliberately thrown the bidding and avoided the trials entirely. Given that seven Clans wound up in the Sphere, I would expect somewhere between ten and fourteen of the remaining 17 Clans to have been involved in the battle round(s), with one round fought to determine who the Invaders would be and a second round fought by the winners to determine corridors. At the same time as that second round, the losers of the first may have had a go at obtaining a reserve slot, which apparently the Vipers occupied.

I would expect that the forces dispatched would have come from the Clans' most elite Cluster or Keshik, and to have been no more than a Cluster in size at most. Probably on the order of two Binaries or Trinaries, really.

ER, you mean 8 Clans  ;D  Don't forget that ONE Goliath Scorpion Star led by the Scorpions' saKhan that fought alongside the Steel Vipers... and then vanished without a trace during the fighting on Tukayyid *cue creepy music*

Honestly, I'd think that such a momentous prize as an invasion theater would involve a trial between more than just a handful of 'Mechs, especially if I don't trust my opponents to fight a 100% completely honorable battle.

Also, by "double-elimination" I meant that a Clan that lost in the first round would get a second chance to (possibly) redeem themselves and win a reserve spot before being eliminated from the running entirely.  Something akin to a second Trial of Position like the Horses, Vipers, etc. have.  Fail once and you lose the grand prize; fail a second time and you don't even get the consolation prize.

I also think the notion of a Clan getting a bye in a given round is humorous.  It's like winning a trial without actually fighting.

[Stormfury]

There was an ilKhan to oversee the Trials. Anyone acting up could expect to be seriously censured, possibly Absorbed or even Annihilated. For the right to Invade, you're going to be on your best behaviour.

As to the second, the Clans abhor waste. Throwing entire Galaxies into a meat grinder would only disrupt their plans to Invade. A Cluster or less can easily be replaced within the time frame required. Massive losses would leave them further understrength.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

In Clan Ghost Bear, the Warriors of the 3rd Bear Guards cluster were the ones that won us the place in the Invasion.

[joechummer]

Where is that mentioned? I recently read through their entry in FM:WC and don't recall seeing that.  I'm not doubting you:  I just like looking up stuff.

Regardless, was it the entire Cluster or just elements of it?

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

It mentions it in the fluff for the 3rd Bear Guards themsleves

[joechummer]

Well that explains it.  I'm terrible at remembering fluff for all the individual units, especially when it comes to a Touman the size of the Bears....

[joechummer]

Okay.  I am so confused now.

I'm (re)reading through Invading Clans for the first time in forever, and in the Ghost Bear section, it says there were 3 rounds of bidding before the placement trials, and it makes it sound like only the 6 Clans that actually won places (Falcons, Jags, Bears, Vipers, Cats, and Sharks) fought combat engagements in the actual placement trials.

Later on, however, in the Diamond Shark section it says that ALL 17 Clans fought in the placement trials, and that the Sharks placed 6th out of 17.

Now, we know the Fire Mandrills fought in the trials (per FM:CC), and we know that the Cloud Cobras removed themselves from the bidding (per FM:WC, if I'm not mistaken), and the Star Adders dropped out after the first round of bidding (per FM:CC).  So according to the Ghost Bear section in IC, the Mandrills never fought in the trials, yet the Shark section in IC hints that both the Cobras AND the Adders fought in the actual combat trials for invasion theaters but just didn't make it into the top 4 (or top 6, after the Cats' and Sharks' Trials of Refusal).

Now, granted, I can excuse the details about the home Clans' participation in the bidding and trials being fuzzy since they hadn't been entirely fleshed out yet, but the Ghost Bear and Diamond Shark sections seem to contradict each other.

Am I just reading or interpreting this wrong, or did I find some continuity snafu?

[Alan Grant]

If placement trials INCLUDE bidding, then it makes a little more sense.

Truthfully, I think it's just one area of Clan history that hasn't been adequately fleshed out, and various sources offer various interpretations.

Operation Klondike used to be similar. At times we had slightly inconsistent pieces of information. The book put all the pieces together.

It's pretty clear that the process that decided which Clans participated in the invasion is unique, even among the Clans. They saw the lack of a system to determine that, so they created one. No other bidding/Trial process is quite the same, or has quite as many variables to consider. So even Clan fans are going to have a lot of question marks about this one. We can guess and speculate, but ultimately the writers have the last word on how it went down.

[joechummer]

I was actually thinking that might be the case, as that's the only thing that makes complete sense:  1st round of bidding, 1st round of combat; 2nd round of bidding, 2nd round of combat; 3rd and final round of bidding, 3rd and final round of combat.

The competition for the invasion theaters has recently become a major point of interest for me, and I'd love to be able to piece together an accurate picture of what occurred in this somewhat blurry period of Clan history.  I've got opening (1st round) and final (3rd round) bids for a few of the Clans, and an ordered list of where the winning/runner-up Clans placed, but that's about it.

[Trajan Helmer]

I was actually thinking that might be the case, as that's the only thing that makes complete sense:  1st round of bidding, 1st round of combat; 2nd round of bidding, 2nd round of combat; 3rd and final round of bidding, 3rd and final round of combat.

About two years ago, my little group recreated our 'version' of what the combat trials resolved using some of your reasoning above. To prevent unnecessary waste, we decided a binary would be sufficient to determine ranking. Most of the Clans participated directly in the combat but, iirc, 2 Clans eliminated themselves by bidding too high. (Scorpions, Cobras) The next round eliminated the Vipers, Coyotes, Hellions, Ravens, and Sharks. The Bears and Spirits barely won their fights. Based on how well the victorious Clans won, they were reseeded for the last round. The Falcons trounced the Cats, the Jaguars beat the Adders and the Spirits managed a clear victory over the Burrocks. Horses and Bears then fought to determine precedence as a reserve Clan. The Bears won their grudge match and became the our first reserve Clan. Because the Adders suffered fewer casualties than the Cats and Burrocks but suffered more than Bears and Horses in their engagement, they were pronounced the 3rd reserve Clan.

We suspended our Operation: REVIVAL campaign 8 months ago pending the eventual release of Interstellar Operations