The Go vote

[joechummer]

Well, aside from the factually correct but generally unhelpful "we don't know?"

The Clans do not use double-elimination or round robin tournaments for anything. All Trials, for Position, Bloodright, or whatever else, are winner-takes-all.

As with the Cloud Cobras, some Clans, probably the Wardens, would have deliberately thrown the bidding and avoided the trials entirely. Given that seven Clans wound up in the Sphere, I would expect somewhere between ten and fourteen of the remaining 17 Clans to have been involved in the battle round(s), with one round fought to determine who the Invaders would be and a second round fought by the winners to determine corridors. At the same time as that second round, the losers of the first may have had a go at obtaining a reserve slot, which apparently the Vipers occupied.

I would expect that the forces dispatched would have come from the Clans' most elite Cluster or Keshik, and to have been no more than a Cluster in size at most. Probably on the order of two Binaries or Trinaries, really.

ER, you mean 8 Clans  ;D  Don't forget that ONE Goliath Scorpion Star led by the Scorpions' saKhan that fought alongside the Steel Vipers... and then vanished without a trace during the fighting on Tukayyid *cue creepy music*

Honestly, I'd think that such a momentous prize as an invasion theater would involve a trial between more than just a handful of 'Mechs, especially if I don't trust my opponents to fight a 100% completely honorable battle.

Also, by "double-elimination" I meant that a Clan that lost in the first round would get a second chance to (possibly) redeem themselves and win a reserve spot before being eliminated from the running entirely.  Something akin to a second Trial of Position like the Horses, Vipers, etc. have.  Fail once and you lose the grand prize; fail a second time and you don't even get the consolation prize.

I also think the notion of a Clan getting a bye in a given round is humorous.  It's like winning a trial without actually fighting.

[Stormfury]

There was an ilKhan to oversee the Trials. Anyone acting up could expect to be seriously censured, possibly Absorbed or even Annihilated. For the right to Invade, you're going to be on your best behaviour.

As to the second, the Clans abhor waste. Throwing entire Galaxies into a meat grinder would only disrupt their plans to Invade. A Cluster or less can easily be replaced within the time frame required. Massive losses would leave them further understrength.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

In Clan Ghost Bear, the Warriors of the 3rd Bear Guards cluster were the ones that won us the place in the Invasion.

[joechummer]

Where is that mentioned? I recently read through their entry in FM:WC and don't recall seeing that.  I'm not doubting you:  I just like looking up stuff.

Regardless, was it the entire Cluster or just elements of it?

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

It mentions it in the fluff for the 3rd Bear Guards themsleves

[joechummer]

Well that explains it.  I'm terrible at remembering fluff for all the individual units, especially when it comes to a Touman the size of the Bears....

[joechummer]

Okay.  I am so confused now.

I'm (re)reading through Invading Clans for the first time in forever, and in the Ghost Bear section, it says there were 3 rounds of bidding before the placement trials, and it makes it sound like only the 6 Clans that actually won places (Falcons, Jags, Bears, Vipers, Cats, and Sharks) fought combat engagements in the actual placement trials.

Later on, however, in the Diamond Shark section it says that ALL 17 Clans fought in the placement trials, and that the Sharks placed 6th out of 17.

Now, we know the Fire Mandrills fought in the trials (per FM:CC), and we know that the Cloud Cobras removed themselves from the bidding (per FM:WC, if I'm not mistaken), and the Star Adders dropped out after the first round of bidding (per FM:CC).  So according to the Ghost Bear section in IC, the Mandrills never fought in the trials, yet the Shark section in IC hints that both the Cobras AND the Adders fought in the actual combat trials for invasion theaters but just didn't make it into the top 4 (or top 6, after the Cats' and Sharks' Trials of Refusal).

Now, granted, I can excuse the details about the home Clans' participation in the bidding and trials being fuzzy since they hadn't been entirely fleshed out yet, but the Ghost Bear and Diamond Shark sections seem to contradict each other.

Am I just reading or interpreting this wrong, or did I find some continuity snafu?

[Alan Grant]

If placement trials INCLUDE bidding, then it makes a little more sense.

Truthfully, I think it's just one area of Clan history that hasn't been adequately fleshed out, and various sources offer various interpretations.

Operation Klondike used to be similar. At times we had slightly inconsistent pieces of information. The book put all the pieces together.

It's pretty clear that the process that decided which Clans participated in the invasion is unique, even among the Clans. They saw the lack of a system to determine that, so they created one. No other bidding/Trial process is quite the same, or has quite as many variables to consider. So even Clan fans are going to have a lot of question marks about this one. We can guess and speculate, but ultimately the writers have the last word on how it went down.

[joechummer]

I was actually thinking that might be the case, as that's the only thing that makes complete sense:  1st round of bidding, 1st round of combat; 2nd round of bidding, 2nd round of combat; 3rd and final round of bidding, 3rd and final round of combat.

The competition for the invasion theaters has recently become a major point of interest for me, and I'd love to be able to piece together an accurate picture of what occurred in this somewhat blurry period of Clan history.  I've got opening (1st round) and final (3rd round) bids for a few of the Clans, and an ordered list of where the winning/runner-up Clans placed, but that's about it.

[Trajan Helmer]

I was actually thinking that might be the case, as that's the only thing that makes complete sense:  1st round of bidding, 1st round of combat; 2nd round of bidding, 2nd round of combat; 3rd and final round of bidding, 3rd and final round of combat.

About two years ago, my little group recreated our 'version' of what the combat trials resolved using some of your reasoning above. To prevent unnecessary waste, we decided a binary would be sufficient to determine ranking. Most of the Clans participated directly in the combat but, iirc, 2 Clans eliminated themselves by bidding too high. (Scorpions, Cobras) The next round eliminated the Vipers, Coyotes, Hellions, Ravens, and Sharks. The Bears and Spirits barely won their fights. Based on how well the victorious Clans won, they were reseeded for the last round. The Falcons trounced the Cats, the Jaguars beat the Adders and the Spirits managed a clear victory over the Burrocks. Horses and Bears then fought to determine precedence as a reserve Clan. The Bears won their grudge match and became the our first reserve Clan. Because the Adders suffered fewer casualties than the Cats and Burrocks but suffered more than Bears and Horses in their engagement, they were pronounced the 3rd reserve Clan.

We suspended our Operation: REVIVAL campaign 8 months ago pending the eventual release of Interstellar Operations