The Go vote

[joechummer]

Something I've been thinking about:

Long before the arrival of the Outbound Light at Huntress in 3048, all of the Clans were pretty evenly split across Warden/Crusader lines.  However, when the Grand Council vote to invade the Inner Sphere came, 32 of the Khans voted for the motion, and only the 2 Wolf Khans went against the grain.  What I'd like to know is why all of the many Warden-leaning Clans voted FOR an invasion their political beliefs told them was wrong?  I can think of a few possible justifications, (such as the Diamond Sharks looking to tap new markets in the Inner Sphere, or the Steel Vipers hoping to enact their unique plan for the Star League's rebirth), but that's about it.

Any thoughts?

[Stormfury]

Leo Showers claimed that the Federated Commonwealth would re-establish the Star League before the Clans had the opportunity to do so and that the Inner Sphere either knew where the Homeworlds were or would in the very near future.

In the end, he sold it to the other Khans as their best or only chance to fulfill Kerensky's vision.

[Rainbow 6]

True enough, the other Khans probably thought all the clans would take part in the invasion as well.

[Jaim Magnus]

Basically, like many good politicians, Leo Showers used fear tactics to get what he wanted.

[SteveRestless]

Well, I suspect the Golliath Scorpions could have been persuaded that it presents a chance to Seek.

[Alan Grant]

Leo Showers claimed that the Federated Commonwealth would re-establish the Star League before the Clans had the opportunity to do so and that the Inner Sphere either knew where the Homeworlds were or would in the very near future.

In the end, he sold it to the other Khans as their best or only chance to fulfill Kerensky's vision.

This was the canon stated reason. Particularly the threat of discovery by the Inner Sphere. Leo Showers created this feeling in the air that Clan society might be discovered at any time. The clock had run out and they needed to move. It was fear-mongering 101.

[Iron Wolf]

What I'd like to know is why all of the many Warden-leaning Clans voted FOR an invasion their political beliefs told them was wrong?

The Warden ideology was always full of nonsense. The Wardens sat on their hands and lectured the Crusaders while the Successor States annihilated each other. All that talk about protecting and guiding the IS from the outside went south as soon as there was a perceived threat to the home worlds.

[Jaim Magnus]

When you get right down to it, both the Crusader and Warden philosophies are ridiculous.
The Clans are a warrior society.  They NEED battles.  That's their PURPOSE.
Attacking the Inner Sphere, or opposing those who do, leads to more battles and justifies their existence.

[Alan Grant]

Philosophy goes out the window when you feel threatened. Pulling the fear card makes even enemies come together. It causes people to do things they wouldn't otherwise do. That's human nature in general, not just the Clans. Leo Showers understood this and used it.

[joechummer]

Okay, so what about the Coyotes?  They follow the Wolves around (politically) like lost puppies, and the Wolf/Coyote bloc dominated the Grand Council for most of Clan history.  Yet, even THEY voted for the invasion.  What gives?

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

I will note that the Scorpions, per their FM entry, voted based on a coin toss.

[Ghostbear_Gurdel]

Okay, so what about the Coyotes?  They follow the Wolves around (politically) like lost puppies, and the Wolf/Coyote bloc dominated the Grand Council for most of Clan history.  Yet, even THEY voted for the invasion.  What gives?

well by this time the 'yotes had lost a lot of power, so they probably voted with the Crusaders so that they could look good, and maybe get back into a position of power. The last thing a weak(er) clan wants to do is be unpopluar.

[SteveRestless]

I think the real reason is that when the fact about the wolves being the only resistance was set, is because none of the home clans had received a lot of detail yet. the part about the coyotes following the wolves came after

[Stormlion1]

I think the real reason is that when the fact about the wolves being the only resistance was set, is because none of the home clans had received a lot of detail yet. the part about the coyotes following the wolves came after

It was probably done this way to make the Wolves look better and all the Clans that voted yes to look more warlike. It made the Wolves more likable and more of the white hat.

[Blacknova]

CLOUD COBRAS
FM:WC p.23
"Khan Din Steiner steadfastly refused to hear Cobra warriors who longed for a return to the Inner Sphere.  SaKhan Leighton Khatib...believed that the way led with the Jaguar Khan...In the end,the saKhan prevailed. The trus way made itself known to our Khan..."

Sounds like the Cobras came over due to internal politicking and point scoring.

COYOTES
FM:WC p.23 and and 43
From the CC section:
Seeing this change of heart [by the cobras]most of the few Khans who doubted, voted in favour of the invasion.

From the Coyote Section
The Warden's power in the Grand Council finally crumbleded, allowing showers invasion motion to pass.

It would appear that the Coyotes lost heart and gave up the fight after the other Wardens turned.

GOLIATH SCORPION
FM:WC p.107
The Scorpions caste thier vote with a coin toss to show thier disdain for showers' political brinkmanship.

SNOW RAVEN
FM:WC p.120
...if one vessel could chance upon the homeworlds, others could surely do so. Therefore, even though we cared little for the Crusaders' irrational conviction that easily defeat and subsume the Inner Sphere, we had little choice but to support Leo Shower's call for invasion. To do otherwise risked the arrival of Inner Sphere armies in our territory.

Based on later events, this may have just been a pragmatic shot at seeing the chance to rent out the fleet.

STEEL VIPER
FM:WC p.138
With the apparent discovery of our homeworlds by forces of the Inner Sphere, our Khans chose to support the call for invasion.

[Nibs]

When you get right down to it, both the Crusader and Warden philosophies are ridiculous.
The Clans are a warrior society.  They NEED battles.  That's their PURPOSE.
Attacking the Inner Sphere, or opposing those who do, leads to more battles and justifies their existence.

I think Jaim's on the right track. Beneath any Warden exterior, they are still warriors, and they still need to fight. Even the slightest of justifications would have provoked thoughts of a war enough to sate every Clan warrior.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Basically, like many good politicians, Leo Showers used fear tactics to get what he wanted.

It was fear-mongering 101.

It's not like there was much to do. The Clan intel mission stopped reporting back in 3019, and thus the Clans on the whole were ignorant of the Federated Commonwealth, the mauling that state delivered on the Confederation, and one attempt to give the same to the Combine in 3039. The possibility of a Steiner-Davion First Lord was a very real concern. Combine that with teh interrogations of the ComStar crew, who certainly revealed that they were part of an organization called the Explorer Corps- and there were likely to be more intrusions, and #@%& just got real for the Clans, son.

[Neufeld]

Make me wonder if the invasion had been less likely to get votes if the Dragoons had kept sending intelligence reports.

[Stormfury]

Considering that only Clans Wolf and Star Adder were actually paying attention to them?

I doubt it. The Adders were Crusaders, wanted in and took it seriously. The Wolves were never going to change their vote.

It took the Outbound Light to act as a catalyst for the renewed Invasion calls. I don't think the formation of the FedCom would have been enough in and of itself to trigger the Invasion, though the War of 3039 might have put them on high alert. Even then they are not likely to have acted before 3049.

[joechummer]

I doubt it. The Adders were Crusaders, wanted in and took it seriously. The Wolves were never going to change their vote.

If the Adders "wanted in and took it seriously," why did they purposely bid low in the placement trials for invasion theaters just so they could stay home?

[Jaim Magnus]

If the Adders "wanted in and took it seriously," why did they purposely bid low in the placement trials for invasion theaters just so they could stay home?

Because they were one of the few Clans who expected that a greater number of forces would be needed.  They were unwilling to bid lower than they felt was necessary.

[joechummer]

Because they were one of the few Clans who expected that a greater number of forces would be needed.  They were unwilling to bid lower than they felt was necessary.

So you're saying they bid low because they thought the Clans that went would just destroy themselves because they weren't sending enough troops?

I though they bid low because they wanted to stay home and consolidate their power in the homeworlds while the big dogs were away?

[Jaim Magnus]

Technically they bid high.  They were unwilling to lower their bid to the levels of the other Clans.  Consolidating power in the homeworlds was something that came after the Burrock absorption.  Over a decade AFTER the go vote.

[Stormfury]

Per FM: CC, the Star Adders bid high because they knew more force would be needed than otherClans were sending to have a realistic chance at achieving the aims of Revival. At the time they were only a mid-sized Clan.

When they were eliminated during the bidding, they decided to consolidate their Homeworld position, culminating in the Burrock Absorbtion and their late-50s strength.

[joechummer]

When they were eliminated during the bidding

Er, didn't all of the Clans -- except the Wolves -- participate in the placement trials for invasion theaters?

If this is not the case, then who didn't even make it to the actual combat rounds of the placement trials?

[Stormfury]

No. There was a round of bidding to determine who would get into the combat trials. We have no firm data on who else was in the trials (apart from the Invading Clans and the Nova Cats, Diamond Sharks, and Steel Vipers), only that the Star Adders were eliminated during the bidding process that preceeded the trials.

[Alan Grant]

The Cloud Cobras withdrew themselves from the Trials, despite voting yes to invasion.

[joechummer]

No. There was a round of bidding to determine who would get into the combat trials. We have no firm data on who else was in the trials (apart from the Invading Clans and the Nova Cats, Diamond Sharks, and Steel Vipers), only that the Star Adders were eliminated during the bidding process that preceeded the trials.

I know the Mandrills fought in a few rounds at least.  And they fought with 'Mechs that were still battle-damaged from their inter-Kindraa war that took place right after the go vote.  They won skirmishes here and there but were (obviously) beaten overall.

I wonder how well they would've done if given the chance to fully repair their equipment before taking to the field...

[joechummer]

My biggest curiosity was how the placement trials were conducted -- questions along the lines of:

1) Was it a double-elimination seeded tournament, a round-robin, or something else entirely?
2) How many rounds were there?  We know there were at least two, based on the FM:CC description of how the Ice Hellions were knocked out in the second round. Does this mean there were only two rounds?
3)  What were the requirements for winning or being taken out of the competition?  Using the previous reference, did the Hellions lose in the second round because they didn't score high enough to continue?  Or was it because all of their units had been destroyed and couldn't continue to subsequent rounds?
4) How big were the forces committed to the placement trials?
5) Were the forces fielded in the trials proportional to the forces bid for the invasion (e.g. A Clan bids 5 Galaxies and fights in a given round using 5 Clusters or 5 Trinaries, or maybe just 5 Stars...?)

[Stormfury]

Well, aside from the factually correct but generally unhelpful "we don't know?"

The Clans do not use double-elimination or round robin tournaments for anything. All Trials, for Position, Bloodright, or whatever else, are winner-takes-all.

As with the Cloud Cobras, some Clans, probably the Wardens, would have deliberately thrown the bidding and avoided the trials entirely. Given that seven Clans wound up in the Sphere, I would expect somewhere between ten and fourteen of the remaining 17 Clans to have been involved in the battle round(s), with one round fought to determine who the Invaders would be and a second round fought by the winners to determine corridors. At the same time as that second round, the losers of the first may have had a go at obtaining a reserve slot, which apparently the Vipers occupied.

I would expect that the forces dispatched would have come from the Clans' most elite Cluster or Keshik, and to have been no more than a Cluster in size at most. Probably on the order of two Binaries or Trinaries, really.