Author Topic: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated  (Read 9432 times)

Drewbacca

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So this one has potential to go deep into Clan societal workings of to become a dumpster fire, please let's try to keep it the former.

I will start with this change in the timeline. The other clans, while still jealous of the Wolverines and dealing with their own problems are not stupid and see through Karrige's scheming. Nicky K censured the Wolverines enough to bring them back in line but does not go for the throat. We have had by this point 2 khans now out in non-combat ways with Kinneson and Kuhfal, so Karrige is quietly removed, say a training accident.

Do you think the Wolverines would eventually been targeted anyway? Would there Widowmakers have been scapegoat to unite the clans? (To be honest, I get the feeling the other Khans still held a bridge against them come the Widowmaker Absorbtion and probably made sure that happened.) Would the Blood Spirits have been tagged?

Would the "arms race" started by the Wolverines have accelerated clan weapon developement?

Would Clan society have loosened up or been more restrictive? If it loosened up would that have been good or bad for the clans as a whole?

RifleMech

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #1 on: 09 December 2019, 08:25:10 »
I think even if things hadn't been pushed as far as they were in canon, I think it'd only be delaying the inevitable. All the Clans were conspiring against the Wolverines and the Wolverines knew it. The trials weren't going to stop. They were doing something right and everyone was gunning for them for it. And I don't think anything at that point that Nicky could have done to breach the trust. The Wolverines no longer trusted him or the other Clans. Eventually, they'd be pushed too far and make a break for it.

I think any appeasement Nicky made would only delay canon events a year or so. At that point the fuse was already set. It's just a matter of time before the powder keg goes off.

At best, the Wolverines have more time to plan their escape, possibly get real "unofficial" allies, win their Trial of Refusal against Nicky and depart unmolested as the other Clans are too busy dealing with Nicky's breakdown. At worst, everyone starts throwing nukes.

Frabby

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #2 on: 09 December 2019, 09:15:34 »
The funny part is that the twenty original Clans were created as separate entities specifically to instigate competition or outright conflict, so that the best one might prevail. Only when one Clan got ahead of the others during Nicholas' lifetime, he whacked them for it. Or for not evolving in exactly the brainwarped fashion he envisioned.

Let's be honest here: The inter-Clan balance of power should never have lasted as long as it did, because it inverts the law of diminishing returns. When another Clan is weaker than you, you can beat them more easily and incorporate their stuff into your own Clan until it is virtually risk-free to absorb them. It follows that as soon as any one Clan appears a bit weak, every other Clan would have to descend on them like jackals not only to get themselves a piece of the cake, but also to prevent others from having that same piece of the cake and outdo you.
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #3 on: 09 December 2019, 10:06:13 »
+1 to above.  There should have been no more than four clans by the end of the Golden Century, likely Adder, Wolf, Falcon, and Coyote

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #4 on: 09 December 2019, 11:08:23 »
Nicki, per my reading of fiction, always intended to sacrifice one Clan as a example . . . Karriage did not so much as manipulate Kerensky as Kerensky allowed Karriage to scheme and plot because it fed into his own goals to steer them further to his new society by breaking someone who was positive about the past or showed the least desire to click heals.  Its sort of like when new leadership arrives in government, they will sweep out the ministries & departments of appointees of the previous government.  Immediately after the successful conclusion of Operation Klondike would have been the weakest moment for Nicki's new society- the regimented demanding life they had lived to build up to re-established control and save the people they left behind has been accomplished.  The people of the Clans could relax, loosen up and maybe revert to something people recognize from a earlier time- exactly what Nicki did not want since he was out to revolutionize civilization and break cycle of the wheel (sure, it always ends in fire, see below).  To further it . . . who might have legitimately challenged Nicki's actions after Op Klondike?  who could have been a alternate source of leadership with the same authority?  Andrey Kerensky . . . who conveniently died at the end of Op Klondike.

If it was not the Wolverines, Nicki had other opportunities to target a Clan since several had problems that could have been blown up.  The Falcon's Culling could have been a opportunity . . . instead it offered another solution for his effort to change the society by killing off those who voiced dissent and punished those who followed/listened to them.  The Viper's original Khan Kinnison's obsession with Nicki & murder plot of Jennifer could have been a point to hammer home the change.

The Clans before 3045 were a closed environment which is part of why they were able to maintain their system of controls & combat (besides fiat).  When they became a open system with power flowing out of and into the Homeworlds, it allowed alterations in the power equations resulting in now nodes of political power.  The Wars of Reaving, or something like it were always going to be the result of any military invasion of the Inner Sphere- even if the whole of the Clans espoused the Crusader philosophy.

Ritualistic combat can be found through out history and is part of propping up the power structure of a closed environment.  When something from the outside breaks the containment of the closed environment (Spanish conquistadors, invading Mongols, etc) the ritualistic combat is abandoned for pragmatic efficiency- its not longer to support the power structure or bleed of pressure on it, but rather a question of surviving.  The Clans could have survived up to that point without collapsing down to a handful, though you do see the feeding frenzy raise its head during the Mongoose absorption, it is not a prevalent them.  Honestly the Fire Mandrills should have been gone sometime after Kerensky died, their fragmented nature invited it.  Nicki's social conditioning for conformity and consensus were supports to the status quo to keep the Trials from spiraling out of hand towards consolidation.  Though in another manner, the Clans DID consolidate before the Invasion b/c you had the Warden vs Crusader debate that became the focus of their factionalism.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #5 on: 11 December 2019, 18:36:14 »
I agree with the above: if it wasn’t the Wolverines being Annihilated it would have been the Vipers, Falcons, or Widowmakers.

The Wolverines in your example would have been beaten down to the capabilities of the Blood Spirits post Burrock Absorbation. They would have been weak until they rebuilt but still on the fringe of Clan society .

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #6 on: 15 December 2019, 15:32:12 »
Honestly my reading of Betrayal of Ideals it seemed Nicky K approved initially of the Wolverines jumpstart on development and growing strength. His response of 'just trial them more' and 'grow stronger' seem to point at that. In many ways I think Nicky wanted the Clans to follow in Wolverine lead. The reasons I figure this as well is that initially Nicky K wasn't aware of the Wolverines more liberal ways until the Widowmaker Khan reported to him on the subject. That could have gone differently with Kerensky being angered at the Widowmakers unClanlike spying.

We once wargamed out the Wolf-Wolverine Trial. Gave each side what we considered there full strength at that time and without the nuke at Dehra Dun. Three Galaxys made up of forty warriors each piloting Star League era Royals and Armor on several open maps. No warships as none of us were ready for that little fight. Took several weekends and in the end we finished with the Wolverines winning (Pulverizers and Wolverine II's are nasty!) by a tiny margin. Khan Winson and SaKhan Robertson both were killed in the fighting and we called it when Kerenskys Atlas II was dropped by a Marauder with a series of rear shots. I still wish I had those pictures!

Honestly we joked that with the Wolverine win it just pointed out that they were right and Kerensky was wrong. Which by the Way of the Clan's made them Top Dog. Then we figured both Clans would get savaged by the remaining Clans who hadn't taken part. Long term I figure the Wolverines would be like the Coyotes always coming up with new technologys and Battlemech designs with a very Blood Spirit like brotherhood among the castes.

« Last Edit: 15 December 2019, 15:34:51 by Stormlion1 »
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #7 on: 16 December 2019, 02:36:56 »
Frankly I found the whole Betrayal of Ideas typical of the revisionism floating around at the time.

The Wolverines weren't evil. They were misunderstand. They weren't just misunderstood, they were actively conspired against. They weren't just actively conspired against they were the coolest bestest Clan, so awesome even Nicky's overpowered fiat protected Wolves were so threatened and jealous they could not be allowed to exist. And they still got away. And have a Warship.

Look I don't mind a bit of revision. But that one went overboard.

Mohammed As`Zaman Bey

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #8 on: 16 December 2019, 07:05:14 »
Would the "arms race" started by the Wolverines have accelerated clan weapon developement?
  Doubtful. Clan tech development was always coincidental -Why sacrifice effort and resources on something that you could capture by fighting? Any non-combat competition, such as an arms race, is contrary to Clan culture and is also reflected in their refusal to research and develop better living conditions and resource gathering.

RifleMech

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #9 on: 16 December 2019, 11:57:24 »
I've wondered what would happen if the Wolverines won their trial against Nicky.  I think the other clans would be shocked and if Nicky were captured or killed, they'd be rather, annoyed. To put it politely. With his cult personality they'd want to rescue or avenge him and after the such a trial, I don't think the Wolverines could have stopped them. Depending on the clan they'd be Absorbed or Annihilated. I also think the Wolves would also have been open to Absorption.


As for Betrayal of Ideas in a way it makes sense and answers why they're such boogie men to the Clans. By getting away they beat  Nicky and they have a warship. Plus they know what realy happened. If they showed up and started telling their side of things, people might listen. And if they listen they might not like that their leaders  conspiring and covering things up. l

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #10 on: 16 December 2019, 12:17:44 »
Frankly I found the whole Betrayal of Ideas typical of the revisionism floating around at the time.

The Wolverines weren't evil. They were misunderstand. They weren't just misunderstood, they were actively conspired against. They weren't just actively conspired against they were the coolest bestest Clan, so awesome even Nicky's overpowered fiat protected Wolves were so threatened and jealous they could not be allowed to exist. And they still got away. And have a Warship.

Look I don't mind a bit of revision. But that one went overboard.

Sure, its a pro-Wolverine propaganda piece but IIRC the earliest sources merely hinted at what was done but instead played up the 'unnameable evil' trope- history is written by the winners and with Rule 4 in effect I cannot really drag out most of the historical examples where 'pop history' tells you why events occurred and who the good guys were in the past.  Least controversial one that comes to mind is Henry the VIII which gets a sentence in most history classes about how horrible he was to divorce wives in search of a male heir, which reflects modern revisionist attitudes about the politics of why Henry took such actions.  Especially when it has to get jammed into a single sentence on the way to introduce Elizabeth.

With the more we got about Nicki being a control freak, what came along makes sense . . . and while I dislike the 'gray fallacy' in this case I think it will apply.  Even then, the Wolverine Khan comes off as naive and bluntly a bad leader.  The other side of the story is where did the Society's propaganda start rewriting the historical tale?  IMO it would be when the Wolverines started bailing out of the Kerensky Cluster.

I stand by my point- Nicki (as presented in material now) was always going to kill one of the Clans as an example to the others.  The Wolverines just happened to be the unfortunate gopher that stuck its head up first in the arcade game.
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Maingunnery

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #11 on: 16 December 2019, 14:25:42 »
Even then, the Wolverine Khan comes off as naive and bluntly a bad leader.
That was one of the main things that I got from it, if they had a political savy leader then another Clan would have likely ended up as the scapegoat.
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #12 on: 16 December 2019, 16:48:47 »
Would the "arms race" started by the Wolverines have accelerated clan weapon developement?

So... umm... about that... The wolverines didn't start an arms race. Various clans were already innovating new technologies even before operation Klondike, as per Interstellar Operations.

The notion presented in Betrayal of Ideals that the wolverines were the only ones developing new weapons is canonically false.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #13 on: 16 December 2019, 16:49:42 »
They could have been the only ones openly developing . . . or it could have been a bit of that Society propaganda.
Colt Ward
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #14 on: 16 December 2019, 17:10:17 »
They could have been the only ones openly developing . . . or it could have been a bit of that Society propaganda.

That's the problem, we don't know which is which.

Personally I'm hesitant to take any of the contradictions in Betrayal of Ideals at face value because everything that conflicts seems to do so with the intent of making the Wolverines look cool and progressive and their adversaries stupid, hidebound*, and spiteful. It smacks of either propaganda or just lazy writing.

*The hidebound part really bugs me because these traditions the Wolverines' opposition were clinging to were practically brand new. Technically, the Wolverines were the conservatives in this dispute, holding on to some of their Star League era roots. It gives the feel that Nicholas snapped his fingers and everyone else fell in line with his all new fully formed alien traditions, while the accounts in Operation Klondike show that the clan practices developed gradually over time.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Maingunnery

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #15 on: 16 December 2019, 17:15:48 »
They could have been the only ones openly developing . . . or it could have been a bit of that Society propaganda.
Well the Enhanced ERPPC could be seen as a halfway job, while the other Clans were busy developing full on Clan tech in the background.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #16 on: 16 December 2019, 17:21:32 »
They fell in line while they were under the pressure of preparing to take back the Exodus worlds.  With the pressure off, the reason for the austerity/authoritarian measures declined- but Nutty Nicki did not want to let society fall back into its old ruts, which is why I said he was always going to find example to force the others to follow the 'new' track.  The death of Clan Wolverine showed that even in the Clans' victory there was no going back to what was before- embrace & further the new normal or else suffer the fate of the Not-Named.  Its why the temporary measure of the trueborns became mainstream, b/c from a social engineering practice its perfect.

Wiping out a Clan was Nicki burning everyone's ships, it was a clear signal there would be no returning to what was before.

I mean, I feel this is what Nicki's office looked like when Andrey or Jennifer visited . . .
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #17 on: 16 December 2019, 17:48:14 »
I don't mean just falling in line with your leader, I mean the traditions the clans put into place emerging fully formed.

There's a scene in Betrayal of Ideals where Kerensky criticizes the Wolverines for not fighting one on one during operation Klondike.

The operation Klondike historical indicates the clans didn't fight that way during the campaign, in fact it was inspired partly by some of the opponents they faced. Nukes were abhorent and unused in Betrayal of Ideals. In the historical, they were used with no objection to reduce stubborn defensive positions.

The other clans considered it offensive that the Wolverines might be experimenting with new technologies and mechs, but most if not all of the clans were engaged in weapon research the whole time.

If we accept Betrayal of Ideals as the true account, and the historical book and other later sources as the revisionist history, then we're assuming that the later generations rewrote their history to make their sacred founders and Nicolas Kerensky himself out to be somehow less paragons of the clan way. That's not how you revise history. You do it to puff up your leaders and make them into larger than life paragons, not humanize them.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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Colt Ward

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #18 on: 16 December 2019, 17:59:27 »
And earlier sources had the Ward founder (Jal?) whipped at the direction of the Wolf saKhan for taking infantryman Icaza's declared target.

Dueling gets attributed to IIRC . . . De Chavlier's death before Kerensky's followers went to Strana Mechty by the Falcons, or Andrey's death at 4-1 odds prompting Kerensky to declare it.

more later- out of time
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Stormlion1

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #19 on: 17 December 2019, 18:20:21 »
The Clans were just adopting the Zelbriggen we would know and recognize around that point of time. Physical Combat was still allowed if frowned upon and massed fire was the same way. It wasn't until after the Wolverines fall that I think Nicky K was able to force the issue and the Clans were more ready to accept it else they meet the same fate as the Wolverines.
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #20 on: 18 December 2019, 07:02:40 »
I think one of the best iterations of a Wolverines surviving and the Clans being changed is this

https://www.ourbattletech.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Kapteyn-Universe-Field-Manual-Clans.pdf

But it requires a surviving Andre to help temper Nicky K's worst impulses and decisions (IE most of them) with Andre working as a moderator and Loremaster which in turn helps give the position of Loremaster a lot more power.
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #21 on: 18 December 2019, 10:40:09 »
I think one of the best iterations of a Wolverines surviving and the Clans being changed is this

https://www.ourbattletech.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Kapteyn-Universe-Field-Manual-Clans.pdf

But it requires a surviving Andre to help temper Nicky K's worst impulses and decisions (IE most of them) with Andre working as a moderator and Loremaster which in turn helps give the position of Loremaster a lot more power.

Must read the entirety of this later.

Sarah McEvedy wasn’t a bad leader, she just wasn’t the leader the Wolverines needed until the Trials came. She was a mother figure, a beacon, a spiritual leader NOT a politician. If she was a military leader she was the kind that cares about every single one of the soldiers in their command and would do what it took to keep the majority safe. Franklin Hallis was a warrior pure and simple: he was the General.

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #22 on: 20 December 2019, 18:05:42 »
Must read the entirety of this later.

Sarah McEvedy wasn’t a bad leader, she just wasn’t the leader the Wolverines needed until the Trials came. She was a mother figure, a beacon, a spiritual leader NOT a politician. If she was a military leader she was the kind that cares about every single one of the soldiers in their command and would do what it took to keep the majority safe. Franklin Hallis was a warrior pure and simple: he was the General.

Something to note. History may have been very different if SaKhan Dwight Robertson had survived. He seemed to be a very effective backup to McEvedy where she could now use Hallis as a Galaxy Commander. The other spot history could have been different is if Nicky K had actually accepted Hallis as SaKhan when he showed up in the Council Chamber. His refusal to accept Hallis was one of the driving forces that set Operation Switchback into motion. Nicky K had in the early part of the story seemed to be relatively neutral to the various issues but by recognizing Hallis as SaKhan he would have given the Wolverines a minor win that would have put the antagonistic Clans on the backfoot somewhat.
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #23 on: 20 December 2019, 18:58:37 »
I cannot picture any scenario that lets the Wolverines live unless they are re-written as completely bland and without character.

Different is BAD in the Clans; well you can be different...but only if you are all different in the same ways.

Had Nicky lived longer; I think he might have stomped on the Horses and Ravens and possibly others for emphasizing non-mech capabilities.
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #24 on: 21 December 2019, 13:55:06 »
Frankly I found the whole Betrayal of Ideas typical of the revisionism floating around at the time.

The Wolverines weren't evil. They were misunderstand. They weren't just misunderstood, they were actively conspired against. They weren't just actively conspired against they were the coolest bestest Clan, so awesome even Nicky's overpowered fiat protected Wolves were so threatened and jealous they could not be allowed to exist. And they still got away. And have a Warship.

Look I don't mind a bit of revision. But that one went overboard.

I largely agree...

There is a limit to how far "the victor writes the histories" should be taken in a story. and BoI basically invalidated years of fiction - and was ignored affterwards. Look at the Mongoose write up - they hated the Wolverines because the Wolverines cheated at Trials, rewriting the conditions after a loss. That story is more in line with the original Wolverines, out of touch with those in BoI, and an example of what is wrong with writing a secret history that noone knows about. Noone can use it or build upon it and authors have to pretend it doesn't exist.

That is why I like the idea that BoI is canon only in that it is the book released by the Society to stir up trouble amongst the lower castes. It "reverts" the history to keep it valid, keeps the BoI as canon and opens the possibility that some of what is in BoI is the truth while allowing the authors the freedom to write using the existing canon and known history as if it were true...because it laregly is. That it also, IMO, gives the Wolverines more flavour and story potential (should it be needed) is a further bonus.
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #25 on: 21 December 2019, 19:43:25 »
I personally like Betrayal of Ideals. It shows that the Clans weren't monolithic in the early years but full of internal conflicts. It also showed the insanity of Kerensky at the time and how readily the Clan had its early history rewritten and forgotten. It showed that at one time the Clans main moderating influences were crushed to show Kerenskys willingness to do anything, including wholesale slaughter of a part of his own population to maintain his power and influence.
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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #26 on: 22 December 2019, 02:28:29 »
This did just occur to me today: if they didn’t get Annihilated one of the key points could have been the Trial against the Widowmakers. Say McEvedy got really lucky and managed to take out those two King Crabs yet SaKhan Robertson died they might have cooled down a bit for a while and things could have proceeded onwords. Perhaps the Widowmakers messed up and got Annihilated first and the Wolverines limped on aided by the Nova Cats, Snow Ravens, maybe the Blood Spirits and some other Clans.

Either way I think for my AU I’m going to go that way in the story and work from there. If you guys want to throw ideas all that direction feel free (I’ll credit where due of course) but it will be a longer project of course.

Talen5000

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #27 on: 22 December 2019, 02:40:50 »
I personally like Betrayal of Ideals. It shows that the Clans weren't monolithic in the early years but full of internal conflicts. It also showed the insanity of Kerensky at the time and how readily the Clan had its early history rewritten and forgotten. It showed that at one time the Clans main moderating influences were crushed to show Kerenskys willingness to do anything, including wholesale slaughter of a part of his own population to maintain his power and influence.

Regardless of how well it is or isn't written, it still has problems. That the writers cannot build upon it or use it because it IS a secret history that noone knows about is, IMO, quite a big one. That it largely invalidates large sections of Clan history published both before and after it is another. Ohers have pointed out other issues with it - some of which, but not all, can be explained away by the"Victors write the history" storyline.

Reverting to the truth that the published stories are correct, with the Wolverines simply airbrushed out, solves a lot of issues. That also frees up the authors and opens up a lot more creative room for the Wolverines in the (highly unlikely at best) circumstance they return and by stating that the BoI book is a copy of the book published by the Society, then the explanation that it is canon still holds. One could even argue that parts of it are true.

But a book that authors cannot use or reference, which they must even actively ignore when writing in universe stories and explanations, and which contradicts, in letter and spirit, the sources and statements that they can use and reference and build upon is not a source that I think people should rely upon. And, as I have said elsewhere, IMO, doing so also offers up a Clan Wolverine that has so many more opportunities for character and development that would be more benenficial for them as a faction - again, in the unlikely event they did return. Which I do not believe will ever happen, barring a reboot of the storyline.

Let us suggest for example that they were the Minnesota Tribe...what we have would be a small handful of well equipped survivors and troops who picked up tens of thousanbds of Combine citizens. What does this mean? It means that the Clan Wolverine just became a Kuritan offshoot. Now, if the MT were a lost SLDF division, or even a Clan pursuit force, then it woudln't matter. One would likely adopt the Kuritan identity as its own, the other would place the kuritans in amongst the general populace and absorb them.

But for the Wolverines, it means there is probably nothing worthwhile to bring back. The Trial system wasn't fixed or fully formed. Assuming BoI, there were only a handful of them left following Barbados. The Kuritans would provide bodies and possibly skills for labour but with the majority of their supplies lost at Barbados, returning to the type of society they had left behind would be impossible. You could posit a fusion of societies, but it would still be overwhelmingly Kuritan.

If we want a Kuritan society, we can play the Combine.

Which then brings us the the central problem of adding the Wolverines, of bringing them back.

What would they add to the game? What coudl they do that an existing faction could not do at least as well?
The answer is....nothing.

Now - as to the original question, what if the Wolverines were not Annihilated, you need to first ask "Which Wolverines"?
The BoI Wolverines were (in Jellicos words) "The coolest bestest Clan, so awesome even Nicky's overpowered fiat protected Wolves were so threatened and jealous they could not be allowed to exist."

Assume these Wolverines were the true Wolverines, but then posit they escaped Annihilation.
First question - at what point was this managed? Did they defeat the Clan Wolf? Survive the ToA?

Option One: Surviving not being an option (cos then they'd be dead), they win the ToA.Then they'd be weakened, and would become everyones favourite whipping boy. They and the Wolves would be subject to immediate Trials of Possession for most of their enclaves. Nicholas, not wanting to see his society riven apart so soon, would probably have stepped in and imposed some limits on the fighting to ensure both Clans had a chance of long term survival, in effect codifying that Trials could only be waged against a Clan able to Absorb the damage unless it was subject to a Trial of Annihilation or Absorption.

Clan Wolf and Clan Wolverine would still exist, but they would be shadows of their former selves/

Option 2: McEvedy prevents the ToA taking place.
How? Maybe she doesn't nuke Dehra Dun...or prevents its nuking.
Maybe she doesn't point a gun at the Grand Council.
Maybe she accepts that her Clan lost the Trial and doesn't pursue it any further

Nicholas might still find her and her Clan guilty of various crimes and would require forgiveness and penance of some form. Surkai. What form would such penance take? McEvedy and the saKhan would likely be required to step down, with a new leadership installed. Sacrifices of territory, personnel, equipment might be expected. Nicholas might enact a new punishment such as temporary exile - confine the Clan to a harsh planet for a certain amount of time, which would give the Wolverines their own homeworld but stunt their growth.

3: McEvedy doesn't antagonise the other Clans

In all these cases, the Wolverines survive,  the Clans still grow, but the Wolverines end up much weaker than they are shown in BoI, but with an opportunity to regrow. Depending on the situation, other Clans would also end up weaker. Without the Wolverines assets, Clan Wolf would not become the powerhouse it did but it would have a larger fleet. A number of feuds which began due to the Annihilation - a factor against BOI - would not have started and interClan relationships might be more cordial. Clan Wolfs Absorption of Clan Widowmaker might not have happened, or it might have gone to a different Clan.










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RifleMech

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #28 on: 22 December 2019, 04:27:06 »
The writers could write a story for the Wolverines that has no impact on the rest of the universe like Far Country. That would allow them to reference Betrayal of Ideals. It happens but its so far removed there's no impact. Or the story could have an impact yet no one knows about it. It could even be confirmed by some of the Khans in secret but since its in secret nothing changes.


Tens of thousands? I know the Minnesota Tribe took a lot of Kuritans with them but I don't think they had the room for that many people. I do think they would have imparted a Kuritan influence on the society. They wouldn't be completely Kuritan though any more than the Wolverines were completely Clan or SLDF. They'd be something new.

Frabby

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Re: Early Clan Hypothetical: The Wolverines are not annihilated
« Reply #29 on: 22 December 2019, 07:06:47 »
I'm one of those people who think Betrayal of Ideals is one of the best BattleTech stories.
And I'm not saying this because I'm a Pardoe/Wolverines/whatever fanboi - I regard Forever Faithful as a much weaker book precisely because of its rampant Trent fanboyism which totally ruined the character arc for me. But let's not go there.

Instead, I'll try - against my better judgement - to defend Betrayal of Ideals. Bear with me. :)

Regardless of how well it is or isn't written, it still has problems. That the writers cannot build upon it or use it because it IS a secret history that noone knows about is, IMO, quite a big one.
My mileage varies on this. A lot.
I disagree with the notion that the writers cannot build upon this history. They have, pretty much from the onset. And misinformation is rampant within the universe, and has always been.

I think what is really the issue here is that you are unhappy about discovering that certain in-universe knowledge was revealed as blatantly false when you as a player/reader took it at face value. (This also seems to be a main point of contention brought against the whole Jihad era and its "as it happened" narrative approach via sourcebooks with outright misinformation and lots of stuff hidden between the lines.)

I can understand the sentiment, but I don't share it. Personally, I enjoy breadcrumb trails and plot twists very much. Yes they can be overdone, but I don't see that with the Wolverines. Clan Wolverine had been dead for over 200 years when the Clans were introduced to the game. Their "role" was to be dead, so I guess I fail to see how the exact circumstances matter in a meta-sense.

That it largely invalidates large sections of Clan history published both before and after it is another. Ohers have pointed out other issues with it - some of which, but not all, can be explained away by the"Victors write the history" storyline.
Again, how is that a problem? By the same logic, finding out that the Star League era was not really a golden age of peace and that the Reunification War was not nice should be equally problematic. They always said it was great and all, and then newer sourcebooks suddenly invert that and say there was scheming and hidden wars beneath the veneer all along. Shocking. Not to mention that Jerome Blake/Conrad Toyama thing.
But what difference does it make?

Reverting to the truth that the published stories are correct, with the Wolverines simply airbrushed out, solves a lot of issues. That also frees up the authors and opens up a lot more creative room for the Wolverines in the (highly unlikely at best) circumstance they return and by stating that the BoI book is a copy of the book published by the Society, then the explanation that it is canon still holds. One could even argue that parts of it are true.
BattleTech has too many factions already. I don't think the Wolverines can come back. Heck, the Smoke Jaguars were kinda-sorta dragged back from their well-deserved grave, so that stunt has been pulled already. Any surviving Wolverines would have evolved to the point of being unrecognizable now.

But a book that authors cannot use or reference, which they must even actively ignore when writing in universe stories and explanations, and which contradicts, in letter and spirit, the sources and statements that they can use and reference and build upon is not a source that I think people should rely upon. And, as I have said elsewhere, IMO, doing so also offers up a Clan Wolverine that has so many more opportunities for character and development that would be more benenficial for them as a faction - again, in the unlikely event they did return. Which I do not believe will ever happen, barring a reboot of the storyline.
We seem to agree that it's unlikely the Wolverines will come back. It's even unlikely that they have any lingering relevance or impact on the current political situation in BattleTech. The net result being that while anyone in living memory can and will assume the fake history as accurate, it will make no difference at all.

As for the writers, I think you massively overestimate the relevance of the Wolverines or Betrayal of Ideals for BattleTech history. I think there are only two writers who delved into this corner of (Clan) history - and that's Pardoe and Bills. The latter wrote Nicholas as a murderous psychopath and sect leader, and the former maintains that he always considered his earlier pieces on Wolverine history to be whitewashed lies, the joke being on the fans who took the propaganda at face value.
(I'd rant a bit here if not for Rule 4.)

Let us suggest for example that they were the Minnesota Tribe...what we have would be a small handful of well equipped survivors and troops who picked up tens of thousanbds of Combine citizens. What does this mean? It means that the Clan Wolverine just became a Kuritan offshoot. Now, if the MT were a lost SLDF division, or even a Clan pursuit force, then it woudln't matter. One would likely adopt the Kuritan identity as its own, the other would place the kuritans in amongst the general populace and absorb them.
It's confirmed they were the Wolverines. And whatever became of them, Shades and Spirits from ISP3 suggests they're history. Word of Blake and/or the Green Ghosts may known things and have an agenda somehow informed by the Wolverines; but as a faction, the Wolverines are still as dead as they were when the Clans first showed up.

But for the Wolverines, it means there is probably nothing worthwhile to bring back. The Trial system wasn't fixed or fully formed. Assuming BoI, there were only a handful of them left following Barbados. The Kuritans would provide bodies and possibly skills for labour but with the majority of their supplies lost at Barbados, returning to the type of society they had left behind would be impossible. You could posit a fusion of societies, but it would still be overwhelmingly Kuritan.

If we want a Kuritan society, we can play the Combine.
But that's the point, isn't it? They're dead. They've always been dead. You seem to be arguing that the story narrating how they (really) died was somehow wrong, but since they are and remain dead I feel it is a moot point and I thought the story was well-told.

Which then brings us the the central problem of adding the Wolverines, of bringing them back.

What would they add to the game? What coudl they do that an existing faction could not do at least as well?
The answer is....nothing.
Exactly. The Wolverines weren't added and aren't going to be brought back.

Now - as to the original question, what if the Wolverines were not Annihilated
From a writing standpoint, that question is backwards. Right from the onset, Clan culture was described to be so rigid as to have destroyed a Clan that went against it. It does make sense to me that Nicholas would have deliberately singled out and sacrificed one Clan to use them as a deterrent against resistance to his vision, and to galvanize the others or rally them behind his agenda.
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