Bidding for a Trial of Absorption

[joechummer]

One thing I've never understood is why a Clan subject to a Trial of Absorption bids anything.  Absorption is an all-or-nothing deal, and the Absorption target isn't exactly bidding AGAINST someone else for their own defense.  So is there something I've missed?  is there any reason a Clan targeted for Absorption wouldn't bid their entire Touman? And who are they even bidding against anyway?

[Coyote_808]

If I recall, the actual bidding isn't between the target of the trial and the absorbing clan, but between the various clans for the right to absorb.  Or at least, that's how it should work.

[Alan Grant]

Correct, it's for the right to absorb.

You go into it assuming the target is going to fight back with everything they have. So you base your cut down on the Clan's total known strength.

[Hawkeye Jim]

If the Clan who's supposed to do the absorbing loses, do they get absorbed by the Clan they're trying to absorb instead...........?

[Coyote_808]

If the Clan who's supposed to do the absorbing loses, do they get absorbed by the Clan they're trying to absorb instead...........?

No, the target has proven they are still worthy to exist in Clan culture by defending against a "superior" opponent.

[Hawkeye Jim]

If the attacking Clan loses badly enough, maybe they should be absorbed....

[jklantern]

If the Clan who's supposed to do the absorbing loses, do they get absorbed by the Clan they're trying to absorb instead...........?

I really hope something like this happens during the Wars of Reaving.

[Hawkeye Jim]

The War of Reaving sounds more like a multiple trial of annihilation.

[jklantern]

The War of Reaving sounds more like a multiple trial of annihilation.

It sounds like just a cluster of things that go horribly wrong.  I think it would be hilarious if part of it involved one Clan trying to absorb another and in the process getting absorbed.  But, we'll have to see.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Go try to smash all of your enemies. When you're done, collect what's left and called them "absorbed".

[Kit deSummersville]

That's the best way to get yourself absorbed. That's part of playing the Clan politics, you can't be too threatening or the rest will turn on you. Or likewise, too weak.

[Stormfury]

Unless you're the Star Adders, who have been carrying on a de facto Absorbtion/Annihilation for quite some time now.

[Kit deSummersville]

But they can never complete it until they win over enough votes in the council, which is unlikely.

[Hawkeye Jim]

Something sure set them off to start the War of Reaving. I bet the council didn't vote to allow that.

[Moonsword]

I thought the starting point was the Coyotes basically throwing down the gauntlet with the wave of attacks the Pariah was in...?

[jklantern]

Unless you're the Star Adders, who have been carrying on a de facto Absorbtion/Annihilation for quite some time now.

That's not an Annihilation.  That's a training exercise!

[joechummer]

If I recall, the actual bidding isn't between the target of the trial and the absorbing clan, but between the various clans for the right to absorb.  Or at least, that's how it should work.

I was reading over the Burrock Absorption as detailed in FM:CC, and it says Burrock Khan Jocelyn Siddiq bid 3 frontline Galaxies and 4 secondline Galaxies -- the entire Burrock Touman.

So does this bid actually mean anything, or is it simply customary or ceremonial?  That she enumerated her forces rather than simply saying "I bid everything, you worthless stravags!" suggests to me that she could have bid less than the Burrocks' total strength if she wanted to.

[Alan Grant]

Standard Batchall stuff.

"With what forces do you defend this world?"

You don't have to bid everything. But in most Trials of Annihilation, I think it's the accepted norm.

I could see some unit commanders trying to spare their unit outright destruction when the situation is obviously hopeless. In fact we have canon examples of that. The Wolves in Exile claimed a Jaguar Dragoons cluster in such a manner, only the trinary commanders fought, and the rest were claimed as Isorla. I think it may have happened during the Burrock Absorption but I don't have the books in front of me.

[joechummer]

A batchall is usually only for one objective; at the time of the Absorption, the Burrocks had forces across five worlds.  I that comparison still valid?

Also, this wasn't an Annihilation. Annihilation is all-or-nothing -- all elements are hunted down --whereas Absorption allows elements of the Absorbed Clan to survive. Big difference.

What if Khan Siddiq had chosen to bid only part of her Touman for the trial? The Burrock Absorption resulted in a lot of proxy battles by unit commanders who wanted to prevent warriors from being killed because of a treachery conducted by their Khan, but even those who did not fight ended up being Absorbed into Clan Star Adder.  If Khan Siddiq had only bid half her Touman, would those who weren't included in the bid still be Absorbed?

[Fear Factory]

A batchall is usually only for one objective; at the time of the Absorption, the Burrocks had forces across five worlds.  I that comparison still valid?

And what if she had chosen to bid only part of her Touman? The Burrock Absorption resulted in a lot of proxy battles by unit commanders who wanted to prevent warriors from being killed because of a treachery conducted by their Khan, but even those who did not fight ended up being Absorbed into Clan Star Adder.  If Khan Siddiq had only bid half her Touman, would those who weren't included in the bid still be Absorbed?

Here's my take from what I've gathered.

The warriors of Clan Burrock did not agree with their own Clan at all.  SO, you have a pissed off Clan Burrock.  They are prepared to defend themselves to the death and prove their worth and honor by defeating their enemy.  After the bidding, Clan Star Adder shoots the Burrock reinforcements out of space.  Then, Clan Blood Spirit, who has dishonored them for years, gets involved to basically screw Clan Burrock out of their existence making the scenario on the brink of becoming a trial of annihilation.  The Burrocks then had to accept their fate which is basically where all the proxies started.  The whole proxy thing took place after both Clans fought together to push Clan Blood Spirit out of the scenario.  When the Blood Spirits were out, Carlos Hutchinson and Khan N'Buta fought each other, and Carlos lost.  Other commanders did the same thing which not only saved what was left of Clan Burrock but boosted the Star Adder touman up a Galaxy.  IMO, Burrock successfully trolled Clan Blood Spirit, lack of a better way to put it.

So, bidding probably happens, but in this case the Khan didn't want to go down no matter what.  When the Khans were killed, Hutchinson stepped up and did what he could to get the Clan out of an "annihilation" situation.

A batchall is usually only for one objective; at the time of the Absorption, the Burrocks had forces across five worlds.  I that comparison still valid?

What if Khan Siddiq had chosen to bid only part of her Touman for the trial? The Burrock Absorption resulted in a lot of proxy battles by unit commanders who wanted to prevent warriors from being killed because of a treachery conducted by their Khan, but even those who did not fight ended up being Absorbed into Clan Star Adder.  If Khan Siddiq had only bid half her Touman, would those who weren't included in the bid still be Absorbed?

I only gathered info on 4 worlds.  Those who weren't bid would simply have to accept their fate into their new Clan if the other Clan wins, IMO, or probably face annihilation.


If you guys are interested grab the FM:CC Supplement in my sig.  I cover Burrock's history based on canon references.

[joechummer]

The only way it could've been an Annihilation is if the Grand Council vote (minus the Burrocks) is unanimous.  However, if the Adders and/or Spirits had turned it into a de facto Annihilation without the Grand Council's approval, then the responsible party would be censured.

Regarding 5 worlds: FM:CC pg 115: "...it took the Adders a mere two weeks to Absorb Clan Burrock and its holdings in five systems." Now I know the Burrocks had enclaves on Albion, Dagda, Hoard, and Priori, but I can't find any data on the 5th world.  I'm sure that their Strana Mechty enclave doesn't count, since the planet is shared equally by all extant Clans?

[Stormfury]

Tanite Worlds? EDIT: They also shared the Krakau/Paxton system with the Adders.

But they can never complete it until they win over enough votes in the council, which is unlikely.

Or they can just rely on nobody else caring enough to intervene. It might not be in accordance with a traditional Absorbtion/Annihilation, but since no-one appeared interested in stopping it, the result would have been the same, absent their apparent breakout assualt and the forthcoming Wars of Reaving.

[joechummer]

Those were garrisoned by Burrocks, not owned, and there are three if them. If the Adders fought them there (assuming they even knew where they were, which I believe the Cobras kept their location secret), that would be seven worlds, not five. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the Burrock reinforcements that got shot down over Albion were Tanite garrison troops ordered by their Khan to come to the aid of the Clan.

Krakau was just a gas giant, not a habitable system.  Where did you read about Paxton regarding the Burrocks? Don't recall that one.

[Fear Factory]

The only way it could've been an Annihilation is if the Grand Council vote (minus the Burrocks) is unanimous.  However, if the Adders and/or Spirits had turned it into a de facto Annihilation without the Grand Council's approval, then the responsible party would be censured.

It was Clan Blood Spirit who got involved and that's where things started to go downhill.  They were more focused on destroying Clan Burrock, instead of Clan Star Adder, who wanted to absorb them.  The Burrocks were forced to fight two battles while Clan Star Adder was basically ticked off at the huge dishonor Clan Blood Spirit showed by interfering.  So after Burrock made their offer, the Adder's accepted, then both Clans focused on Clan Blood Spirit.  Clan Burrock was just worried about being annihilated because, IMO, what started as an absorption literally became way out of line by their mortal enemy.  Who knows what would have happened if it pressed on that way.

Regarding 5 worlds: FM:CC pg 115: "...it took the Adders a mere two weeks to Absorb Clan Burrock and its holdings in five systems." Now I know the Burrocks had enclaves on Albion, Dagda, Hoard, and Priori, but I can't find any data on the 5th world.  I'm sure that their Strana Mechty enclave doesn't count, since the planet is shared equally by all extant Clans?

Same as I which is why I cut out the 5th world from my supplement.  I was thinking that it could have been a small presence due to their expeditions...

Tanite Worlds? EDIT: They also shared the Krakau/Paxton system with the Adders.

I guess that kind of supports my suspicions. *shrug*

[Stormfury]

Krakau was just a gas giant, not a habitable system.  Where did you read about Paxton regarding the Burrocks? Don't recall that one.

Xi Provisional Galaxy writeup. Paxon (I misremembered the name) is apparently in the same system as Krakau, as the Burrocks are described as "also" garrisoning the system since its dicovery.

Either way, that would be the fifth system.

[Fear Factory]

Xi Provisional Galaxy writeup. Paxon (I misremembered the name) is apparently in the same system as Krakau, as the Burrocks are described as "also" garrisoning the system since its dicovery.

Either way, that would be the fifth system.

THANK YOU!!!!   :D

[Hawkeye Jim]

The Burrocks had garrisons in the Tanite Worlds, or at least one of them, but did they have civilians there?

[Fear Factory]

The Burrocks had garrisons in the Tanite Worlds, or at least one of them, but did they have civilians there?

Yep, they shared it with Clan Cloud Cobra.  Unsure about civilians though...

[joechummer]

The Burrocks would at least have a military base on all of the Tanite worlds they garrisoned, but it's 100% clear that the Cobras controlled all 3 planets.  The Burrocks were only there to guard the systems and thus did not count as owning an enclave. So long as it didn't violate any clause in their agreement, the Cobras could theoretically ask the Burrocks to leave at any time and replace them with another Clan's units. If the Burrocks actually own a Tanite enclave, the Cobras would have to fight them off the planet if they wished to replace their services with someone else's.

[Hellraiser]

Joe,  here are a few things to think about.

1.  Burrock Khan fought hard and so bid everything, its pretty much the norm response.
BUT, she didn't have too.  Perhaps for some reason she might have wanted to loose and so bid less force.  The more likely reason is to bid down to one uber-elite unit.

For instance Ulric could defend any challenge by naming Natasha as his defender.
No "Honorable" enemy will assign an entire Star to kill her so it comes down hoping your Best pilot can take her and that just isn't going to happen, she was "The Widow" after all.

Now, a Clan who didnt care about honor could say fine, they bid down to 1 cluster from the entire touman, who cares, we still sick 10 galaxies on it. 
But they in turn would be questioned for dishonorable tactics by the grand council, and that is a quick way to get your own ability to rule questioned and have an absorption declared against you.

2.  As stated Krakau is just 1 world in the Paxton system and there is a habitable world there that 4 clans have settlements on.  The Adders/Burroks shared the gas giant for mining germanium for ship building but that isn't the main settlement.  The info is in the Adder right up about shared exploration in the golden century w/ follow up info in the Galaxy right up listed above.