Re: So the TC doesn't build the Rommel, what do they build?

[Taurianspy]

 Something like this

         BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
                      VALIDATED

Type/Model:    Manticore Heavy Tank TC Variant
Tech:          Inner Sphere / 3025
Config:        Tracked Vehicle
Rules:         Level 1, Standard design

Mass:          60 tons
Power Plant:   240 Pitban Fusion
Cruise Speed:  43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type:    ArcShield Maxi II Standard
Armament:     
  1 LRM 10
  1 Medium Laser
  1 Autocannon/20
Manufacturer:  TechniCorp / Jalstar Aerospace
  Location:    ? / Armistar
Communications System:  O/P R Janxiir
Targeting & Tracking System:  TargiTrack 717

Type/Model:    Manticore Heavy Tank TC Variant
Mass:          60 tons

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  30 pts Standard               0      6.00
Engine:        240 Fusion                    0     11.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment:          0      6.00
    Cruise MP:   4
     Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:     10 Single                    0       .00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      3.00
Crew: 4 Members                              0       .00
Turret Equipment:                            0      1.50
Armor Factor:  144 pts Standard              0      9.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                     6         43
   Left / Right Sides:        6      29/29
   Rear:                      6         19
   Turret:                    6         24

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 LRM 10                 Front    0   12     2      6.00
1 Medium Laser           Turret   3          1      1.00
1 Autocannon/20          Turret   0   10     2     16.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                           3          5     60.00
Items & Tons Left:                          12       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        2,620,000 C-Bills
Battle Value 2:    884 (old BV = 566)
Cost per BV:       2,963.8
Weapon Value:      541 / 541 (Ratio = .61 / .61)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 23;  MRDmg = 8;  LRDmg = 3
BattleForce2:      MP: 4T,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 6
                   Damage PB/M/L: 3/3/1,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: GH;  Point Value: 9
                   Specials: if

[tomaddamz]

Why the 60 ton range?  why not build at 65 tons where there is an engine available and in production?

[Stormfury]

It was meant to be based on the Manticore.

As I said on the other thread, just because the Concordat is constructing 260-rated fusion engines does not mean it has the capability to manufacture them in the numbers required to field a new MBT. Every 260 they retask for a Rommel remake is one less for the Thunderbolt lines and reserve pools for repairs.

[tomaddamz]

Now I want to be careful here not to apply too much ThreadKill®, as I fear I may have done in  the periphery thread.  I do feel that the question should be asked though...

To go specifically to your stipulation that Fusion Engines are prioritized to Mech and AeroSpace production, why would a limited power set up a production line dedicated to Vehicle Power Plants ( the 240 SFE), when it would be in their interest to expand production of engines already in production for more Mech and AeroSpace units?

I realize that asking questions about FASAnomics can lead to CarpetBombing cities of CatGirls with Colossal Nukes, but some minor cleansing may be useful here.  Doctrine should drive design, there has to be a reason to make the investment of resources in weapons we are creating.

[Taurianspy]

Tommaddanz,

Stormfury is adamantly stuck on the aspect that the TC has an issue with supplying the fusion engines that are used for battlemechs and the engines are not available.  I was just trying to appease him, and move forward while addressing his issues.  Bring forth your own arguments, because at this time, we have been unable to pursuade him to budge from his interpetation and change his opinion.  We have brought forth several counter arguemnets by multiple people, and he will not concede the position.

The example above was a quick conversion from what I do use in my personal game.  My TC 'Rommel similiar' is below.

Type/Model:    65 Ton 'Rommel similiar' Tank (3025)
Mass:          65 tons
Construction Options:  Fractional Accounting

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  35 pts Standard               0      6.50
Engine:        260 Fusion                    0     13.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment:          0      6.75
    Cruise MP:   4
     Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:     10 Single                    0       .00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      3.25
Crew: 5 Members                              0       .00
Turret Equipment:                            0      1.45
Armor Factor:  136 pts Standard              0      8.50

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                     7         41
   Left / Right Sides:        7      27/27
   Rear:                      7         18
   Turret:                    7         23

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Autocannon/20          Turret   0   20     2     18.00
1 LRM 10                 Front    0   12     2      6.00
1 Machine Gun            Turret   0  100     2      1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                           0          6     64.95
Items & Tons Left:                          12       .05

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        2,956,662 C-Bills
Battle Value 2:    878 (old BV = 565)
Cost per BV:       3,367.5
Weapon Value:      432 / 432 (Ratio = .49 / .49)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 19;  MRDmg = 7;  LRDmg = 3
BattleForce2:      MP: 4T,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 6
                   Damage PB/M/L: 3/3/1,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: GH;  Point Value: 9
                   Specials: if

Check the Periphery boards, the Rommel issue is eating up a lot of TC postings.  Several TC faction members are pushing for a replacement for the Retcon'd Rommel.

[Taurianspy]

Stormfury,

Fact:  The Rommel is currently Retcon'd

Fact:  The TC supports production capabilities for the equipment that would allow a Rommel to be built.

Fact:  The TC has shown the ability to build, rebuild, upgrade or reconfigure production without outside help.

Contention:  Does the TC have the production capability to supply the fusion engines that would support the Production?

Argument 1:  TC production does have the capability to support a large contingency of mercenary logistical needs including the purchase of repair equipment that includes the Vlar 260 and the Magna 260 Fusion engines.  If the production capabilities were strained, the TC would not be able to supply these engines for the mercenary interests  (Point is obviously based on a canon generalization of TC industries capabilities to sell equipment to Mercenaries, unlike the counter arguemnet that is clearly stated as a Hesperus local issue specific to the number of specific engines available to support the number of specific tanks produced.  If following a logical path, and the engine availability was a global issue, could it be assumed Hesperus would seek additional engines from other sources, including TC manufacturers, and ensueing negotiations could validate the TC's ability to produce the Rommel at Taurus.  Support of negotiations between the TC and the Lyrans is already canon).  As the rule applies every day to Taurians, be careful what you wish for, lol.

Argument 2:  Current production level are not an indicator of maximum production capability.  When Jeffery Calderon took over leadership of the TC, he implimented an increase of production to support his military reforms.  Furthermore, both production facilities on Taurus are Star League era production facilities.  The importance of that is they were built to support production capabilities based on military needs that were based on military divisions (roughly 10 times the regimental size).  I am not saying that the TC has 10 times the capability of production, only that they are not utilizing the maximum capabilities they do have.  As I supplied supportive statements about Oshkosh Truck in another forum, non-war time capabilities in comparison to war time capabilities is measured in multiples, not a pervcentage base below 100%.

Argument 3:  Research suggests (admitingly speculation) that the reconfiguration of TTI was in part funded by Earthwerks, the largest contributer to the SDLF.  The link of Magna to Earthwerks and its placement of its engine production facility in proxcimity of TTI on Taurus is a strong contributer to the validation of this speculation.  In support of this, speculation on the recent production of Magna ER Lasers in the TC would logically suggest that production lines not in use by Magna were restarted, upgraded, refurbished, etc.  Production in another location would not be logical, because as a point you put forth in another forum, then licencing would become an issue unless there was a licence in place.  Although your arguement on licencing should not apply between a TC company and a Lyran company based on the limited legal authority and capability to enforce that authority by either government outside of a corperate financial link or a trade agreement, a licencing issue would apply between two companies based in the TC because the TC would have authority and the capability to enforce the regulation.  If you would like to continue supporting a licencing agreement in place, you may not like the Lyran concessions to the TC needed to support that license.  (see arguement 1 above)

[Stormfury]

Stormfury is adamantly stuck on the aspect that the TC has an issue with supplying the fusion engines that are used for battlemechs and the engines are not available.

It is the Magna 260 fusion engine that sets the Rommel/Patton apart from the ICE powered vehicles usually deployed by the armies of the Inner Sphere. The fusion engine also proved to be the biggest stumbling block the Lyrans had to overcome before the tank could be manufactured in the numbers required. The supply of fusion engines was limited, and and what was being produced was earmarked for BattleMechs and AeroSpace Fighters.

The supply of fusion engines was an issue for the richest Great House with the heaviest manufacturing in the Inner Sphere, with two manufacturing lines for 'Mechs using the Magna 260. No matter which way you look at it, the Taurian Concordat does not have an economy, technological expertise, or industry at the same level as the Lyran Commonwealth, let alone all three.

Even if they have the technical expertise to design a brand-new Heavy tank (the Rommel/Patton was notable for this, indicating how unusual that in and of itself was), they then face the monolithic task of securing enough fusion engines to build them in numbers large enough to be a true MBT. The Free Rasalhague Republic had excellent trade relations with its neighbours, both of which were building machines running the Magna 260 (two Crusader lines for the Lyrans, already noted for having supply issues for the tank, and the Catapult and JagerMech in the Draconis Combine) and ComStar support. They were still unable to source enough fusion engines to make supply of the Rommel/Patton they wanted feasible for at least ten years (3027-3037) resulting in the Axel ICE knock-off.

The Concordat does not have the domestic production or trade relationships necessary to deploy a new fusion engine tank, be it the Rommel/Patton or otherwise.

The J. Edgar's entry (p. 30, TR: 3039) also makes note of the difficulty supplying fusion engines for vehicles and how damaged engines were often replaced with ICE models.

If the Lyrans were going to co-produce the Rommel/Patton with anyone, it would be the Federated Suns or Free Rasalhague Republic. The former is their FedCom partner, and the latter was in fact supplying the Lyrans with the tank chassis and weapons into the 3050s. Even the Wolf Dragoons would rank higher on a likely partner list than a nation on the other side of the Sphere necessitating lengthy transit periods and which has a history of belligerance against their FedCom ally.

Several TC faction members are pushing for a replacement for the Retcon'd Rommel.

The only voice agitating for that is your own. Other Taurian posters are in fact saying there is no need for such a tank.

Fact:  The TC has shown the ability to build, rebuild, upgrade or reconfigure production without outside help.

Actually, it has not. The only new machine it put into production during the Succession War era was the Drillson. The Maultier post-dates the era in question and could be only imperfectly copied until the Taurians stole the technical data required to manufacture the equipment it used (p. 169, FM: P). Everything else required something similar or outside assistance, from its Trinity Alliance partners.

Taurian supply of the mercenary market is a 3050+ phenomenon, not a Succession Wars phenomenon.

[tomaddamz]

There has been too much violence. Too much pain. But I have an honorable compromise. Just walk...

So once again we are not addressing one of the central questions of both threads, that is...is there a need for this tank?  what does this tank bring in a tactical/operational sense.  Is this tank a brick that takes hits and dishes damage back out, speedy flanker with good firepower, a compromise design that does neither well?  Make a case for the design decisions, what does the tank do, and how does that fit into a role for a unit that that has to do a job on the battlefield that conceivably will have to get done.

[Stormfury]

The other problem is that the Concordat has actually never had the Rommel any way, so replacing it is kind of a non-starter. What they need is something to back up the Vedette that comprises the bulk of their (and everyone else's) tank forces.

[tomaddamz]

The other problem is that the Concordat has actually never had the Rommel any way, so replacing it is kind of a non-starter.  What they need is something to back up the Vedette that comprises the bulk of their (and everyone else's) tank forces.

And I am going to copy something over from the Periphery thead to get this all in one place for right now.

The manticore with it's main PPC and support LRM designate Long Range Fire Support.  An AC 20 heavy tracked vehicle would in most cases need a fusion engine to match the speed of the Manticore, a vehicle already implimented because of its speed to better pace with lighter mech forces (in comparison to ICE models).  In the case of the indicated Commandos , although they are a lighter mech force, and their force composition supports their response role, they do use heavy vehicles (the manticore).  Also supported, is a need for a vehicle that can support their change in role to a more static defensive role.  In the role of static defense, they are more likely to be the target of assault (atleast in the Taurian mindset).  When mated with the Manticore, the heavy AC20 model vehicle supported by a LRM forces an opposing force to close or endure modest long range fire support.  When closing, the AC 20 becomes an effective delaying tool, allowing Manticores to better maintain effective range.  In the situation above, it enforces a speculation that without other options, the Plainsman was implimented and the Plainsman/Manticore pair did not have the capabilities to delay the assault forces.  Although the TC has a similiar capability in pairing SRM/LRM Carriers, these vehicles movement and armor limitations deem them practically useless outside of urban environments.   

We are getting somewhere, I believe we have identified the need for a heavy tank.  The Taurian Concordant tank formations are too light in firepower to prevent them from being overrun,  thereby costing causing artillery units to be overrun and therefore lost.

Since this is the design thread...feel free to post the design that you feel best addresses the defect in force composition.  The only constraints are ...

1).  Domestic manufacture of parts for the majority of units produced, variants may use limited foreign parts.

2).  Weight of 60 to 75 tons; Bonus points for using parts already in production...but if the part can conceivably be produced in the Concordant, go for it.

3).  Not substantially outperformed by a medium chassis doing the same job...though I am prepared to relax that restraint somewhat with good fluff.

EDIT:  The objective is, of course is to build a unit that is less likely to get overrun.

[Stormfury]

Type: Minotaur
Class: Tracked Combat Vehicle
Role: Main Battle Tank
Mass: 75 Tons
Technology Base: Inner Sphere
Introduction Date: 3035
Power Plant: VOX 225 ICE
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Flank Speed: 54.0 kph
Armour: ProtecTech 6
Armament
1 Pontiac 50 AutoCannon
2 Delta Dart LRM Packs
4 M100 Machine Guns
Targeting and Tracking System: Evil Eye
Communications System: Cyclops 1
Manufacturer: Pinard Protectorates, Limited
Primary Factory: Perdition

OVERVIEW

Whilst the Concordat has deployed the ubiquitous Vedette Medium Tank for decades, its forces have lacked a heavier counterpart suited to supporting it and engaging enemy vehicles or 'Mechs. With the arrival of troops from Little Richard's Panzer Brigade, the Concordat had access to data and examples of modern Spheroid vehicles, particularly the Rommel/Patton pairing that could be assumed to form the backbone of heavy tank forces for the Federated Suns in the future.

Ever paranoid of the Suns, Protector Thomas Calderon issued instructions for Taurian military manufacturers to provide proposals for a new heavy tank capable of facing its most likely foes with at least an equal chance of destroying them.

CAPABILITIES

Topping out at 75 tons, the Minotaur represents the upper edge of what the Concordat's most advanced military production facilities feel is a reasonable target for mass-production; lighter vehicles lack the heavy protection of its frame and firepower, whilst heavier chassis would place too great a strain on the TDF's logistical divisions.

Analysing the information made available to them, Pinard Protectorates Ltd. concluded that the tank's main opponents would be the Vedette, Bulldog, Manticore, and Von Luckner, with the Federated Suns expected to deploy the Rommel/Patton in increasing numbers as time wore on. With all VLAR 300 fusion engines spoken for by the MAD-3R production line, Pinard elected to produce the VOX 225 ICE for use on their new tank, providing it with a movement profile matching the equal-weight Von Luckner, though slower than the Manticore and Rommel/Patton.

Making up for this, however, is the well-planned weapons array. Centred around a Pontiac 50 AutoCannon, the Minotaur's main gun is a match for the Patton's main gun, surpasses the Bulldog's Large Laser, and equals the Manticore's PPC for raw damage if not range. Whilst still not as damaging as the Rommel's Defiance 'Mech Hunter, it is more useful at range and has the advantage of local production to recommend it. The Pontiac is supported at long range by a pair of Delta Dart LRMs, the same model in use by the Griffin produced at Illushin. The net result is a main array capable of equalling or bettering all vehicles in its class at ranges over 270 metres, and still dangerous inside that envelope. The Minotaur also carries a quartet of M100 Machine Guns intended for anti-infantry duties. Two are carried in the turret with the LRMs and AutoCannon, with the remaining Machine Guns mounted in a sponson on either side of the tank.

The remaining twelve tons of mass are devoted to armour, providing the vehicle with thicker skin than the Bulldog, Von Luckner, Manticore, and Rommel; only the Patton (which the Minotaur has double the firepower of) employs heavier protection. Even the Demolisher's armoured hull is less well provided for, virtually assuring the Minotaur of the chance to employ its heavy weaponry.

DEPLOYMENT

The first production run of fifty vehicles has recently been completed, with the vehicles split relatively evenly between the TDF Corps. Another run is currently underway, with Pinard hoping to manufacture between 75 and 100 per annum.

VARIANTS

A planned variant for TDF units stationed on urbanised worlds will trade the LRM-10s for paired SRM-6s, using the freed mass to incorporate an infantry compartment capable of holding a Platoon of either Jump or Foot infantry. The so-called "Minotaur Guard" will be deployed as a shock vehicle in heavy urban combat or to protect vital sites in constricted environments.

Minotaur

Technology Base: Inner Sphere, 3035

Motive System: Tracked
Mass: 75 tons

Internal Structure: 7.5
Engine: 20
Control Systems: 4
Armour: 12
1 AutoCannon 10: 12
2 tons of AutoCannon 10 Ammuntion: 2
2 LRM-10s: 10
2 tons of LRM-10 Ammunition: 2
4 Machine Guns: 2
1 ton of Machine Gun Ammunition: 1
Turret: 2.5

Armour Factor: 192

Front: 40
R/L Side: 40
Rear: 32
Turret: 40

A/C-10, 2 LRM-10s, 2 Machine Guns: Turret
1 Machine Gun: Left Side
1 Machine Gun: Right Side
2 tons A/C-10 Ammunition, 2 tons LRM-10 Ammunition, 1 ton Machine Gun Ammunition: Body

BV: 997
Cost: 2, 951, 813 C-Bills

Minotaur Guard

Technology Base: Inner Sphere, 3035

Motive System: Tracked
Mass: 75 tons

Internal Structure: 7.5
Engine: 20
Control Systems: 4
Armour: 12
1 AutoCannon 10: 12
2 tons of AutoCannon 10 Ammuntion: 2
2 SRM-6s: 6
2 tons of SRM-6 Ammunition: 2
4 Machine Guns: 2
1 ton of Machine Gun Ammunition: 1
Turret: 2.5
Infantry Compartment: 4

Armour Factor: 192

Front: 40
R/L Side: 40
Rear: 32
Turret: 40

A/C-10, 2 SRM-6s, 2 Machine Guns: Turret
1 Machine Gun: Left Side
1 Machine Gun: Right Side
2 tons A/C-10 Ammunition, 2 tons SRM-6 Ammunition, 1 ton Machine Gun Ammunition, Infantry Compartment: Body

BV: 927
Cost: 2, 871, 313 C-Bills

Overall, the BV is not that much greater than the Axel, although price is up by a third. Speed is maybe a concern, but if 3/5 is acceptable for other MBTs of the era, should not be too big a concern.

[XaosGorilla]

After a number of instances in which planetary militias were forced to abandon fuel, ammo, and supply depots to raiders. Taurian planetary garrisons were clamoring for a reasonably affordable tank with enough firepower to make most light and medium mech pilots think twice before attacking.
When Taurian Central Command performed a unit inventory, it discovered that no such tank was being produced.  In order to save costs, the specifications for a versatile heavy tank with enough close range firepower to deter opposing mechs was issued to any engineering company/group that wanted to submit a recommendation. The winning design to be produced by the manufacturer most able to well, produce said design.  A group of recent graduates from the University of Taurus formed an engineering company "Taurian Applied Research and Development" and won! Named after an alias of the Hindu god Krishna, the Govinda proved to be a tough, powerful, if not extremely mobile heavy tank that is cheaper than a most, if not all, light mechs.

Govinda G-20
Tank: 60t
BV: 904(est)
Cost: 1,361,600 C-bills(est)
Movement: 3/5, Tracked
Engine: 180 ICE, 14t
Control Components:3t
Turret: 2t
Internal: 6t, 30
Armor: 11.5t, 184
     Internal  Armor 
Front:   6      42
Right:   6      35
Left:     6      35
Rear:    6      30
Turret:  6      42

Weapons            Loc    Heat
Autocannon/20   Tu      7
LRM 10                Tu      4
Machine Gun       Tu      0

Ammo                  Loc    Shots
AC/20                   Bd       5
AC/20                   Bd       5
LRM 10                 Bd       12
1/2 Machine Gun  Bd       100
1/2 Machine Gun  Bd       100

Govinda G-10
Tank: 60t
BV:889 (est)
Cost: 1,349,700 (est)
Movement: 3/5, Tracked
Engine: 180 ICE, 14t
Control Components:3t
Turret: 2t
Internal: 6t, 30
Armor: 11.5t, 184
     Internal  Armor 
Front:   6      42
Right:   6      35
Left:     6      35
Rear:    6      30
Turret:  6      42

Weapons            Loc    Heat
Autocannon/10   Tu      3
LRM 15                Tu      5
Machine Gun       Tu      0

Ammo                 Loc    Shots
AC/10                  Bd       10
1/2 AC/10            Bd       5
LRM 15                 Bd       8
LRM 15                 Bd       8
1/2 Machine Gun  Bd       100

Notes:
    I realize this tank is more or less an ICE powered Rommel clone, but its cheap and it works.

[tomaddamz]

Here is what I consider to be a Really Bad Ideaâ„¢.  It is 1 dimensional but satisfies all of the criteria that I had hoped it would and could potentially be confused for the Rommel if the Intelligence Officers and analyst was not paying attention to details that didn't add up... though as I write more fluff, I am starting to like it more...

Code: [Select]

Kléber  Heavy Gun Carriage

Mass: 62 tons
Power Plant: Locom-Pack 250 I.C.E.
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: StarSlab/7
Armament:
   1 Pontiac 100 Autocannon 20
Manufacturer: Pinard Protectorates Limited
   Primary Factory: Perdition
Communications System: Neil 5000
Targeting and Tracking System: TracTex Alpha-1



Technology Base: - I.S. Tracked Vehicle - Level 2 - 62 tons

Equipment                                                  Mass
Internal Structure:                                          6.5
Engine:                   250 I.C.E.                        25
    Cruising MP:           4
    Flank MP:              6
Power Amplifier:                                             0
Heat Sinks:             0 - Single                           0
Control Equipment:                                           3.5
Suspention:                                                  0
Turret:                                                      1.5
Armor Factor:         136 - Standard                         8.5

                   Internal    Armor
                  Structure    Value
Front                 7         31     
Left                  7         30     
Right                 7         30     
Back                  7         20     
Turret:               7         25     

Weapons, Ammo, and Equipment         Location     Space   Tonnage
Autocannon 20                         Turret        1       14
Ammo (AC/20 - HEAP) 15                 Body         1        3


Cost: 1,264,950



OVERVIEW
For many years it was assumed that Pinard Protectorate Limited somehow was copying the  Rommel series heavy tank from the Lyran Commonwealth.  Intelligence correctly identified that the components needed were either available or could be substituted with functional replacements, that while not the equal in quality to the Steiner built Tank, they would be adequate.  What actually follows is how assumptions inferred from capability do not always arrive to the same logical conclusion that one would expect oneself to arrive at; simply put, Intelligence mirrored their own biases onto the information that was actually reported and arrived at an erroneous conclusion.  While some Rommel "clones" were undoubtedly built, the majority of actual sightings were now believed to be the Kléber series tanks, which while visually similiar, are not the same as the  Rommel in firepower, range or durability.

History

For some time Taurian armor commanders knew that without substantial Mech support, their tanks were too lightly armed to be very effective against all but the lightest threats; while Hover units like the Plainsman could dictate the time and to some degree where they would engage opposing units, tracked units driving Vedettes often could not control the range nearly as well, and suffered heavily as a result.  With the arrival of Richards Panzer Brigade to the Concordant, what was thought was the answer arrived as well in the form of the Rommel heavy tank.

Development

With the component technical evaluation done, it was concluded that indeed, the ability to duplicate the Rommel was available, but nowhere near have the quantities that were needed to equip all of the armor commands with adequate numbers to be “self sufficient combat commands”.  The Lyran tank, while effective, was simply unaffordable. The thing that “ended the honeymoon” with the Rommel was surprisingly the only weapon system that could inflict damage out past 300 meters.  The Coventry LRM system was reliable and well made, but after a while seemed schizophrenic in the fact that it was ineffective where the main gun was at its best.  The words of Marshall Bruno Turgidson perhaps sum the feelings of the General Staff best “We feel that while the Lyran have a knack for buildings things well; they lack sense of why they are building them.  Look at this LRM they carry around, it barely scratches paint on a real Mech, yet crews are naturally slowing down to use them effectively and  getting shot all to Hell in the process, it defeats the purpose of the big gun.”With those words the concept was crystal clear, get the big gun in range as quickly as possible, anything that delayed that event from taking place comprised the mission.

With the words of Marshall Turgidson still in thieir heads, began months of contentious debate,  even more months of computer modeling, followed up by running prototypes of all manner of shapes and sizes all trying to achieve the goal that was set out before them.

Deployment

The choice of the Taurian Command to name the Kléber a Heavy Gun Carriage and not a Heavy Tank was by no means an accident.  With the single big gun and limited ammo there is only one logical job for this vehicle to perform, to keep enemy Mech and Vehicles at a distance or kill them.   Most critics like to point out that the Pontiac 100 is a poor anti-infantry choice (Edit: this was before Flechette Ammo was available), and essentially would be at the mercy of any infantry in close terrain.  This would be true if the Kléber were operated in isolation from supporting units, and in fact is thought of more as a support unit, and not an independent tank to be operated alone if that can be helped.  Ideally the Kléber will be operated in mixed lances with units that have both the staying power and more importantly, cover the weak anti infantry firepower, Ideally a Capellan Po, though more often than not it’s is the humble Vedette.  In fact this mixing of units within other conventional armor units did much to conceal the actual capabilities of the Kléber , as it was assumed that all I.C.E. fuels were simply going to the other conventional units; that and the turret, while lighter and smaller than it’s Lyran descendant, was appropriately styled to appear identical thus preserving the illusion.  Only recently was this illusion pierced when a sample was salvaged and information of the deception made more widely available.

Variants

Engineering studies with alternative armaments have been proposed, from a Taurian Gauss Rifle ( a copy of the Shengli Arms Zhi-Tong-Yao to be produced by Sterope Defense Industries called the Anodyne) to Marik Light Gauss rifles and a Capellan Plasma Cannon.  So far none these appear to have been prototyped, let alone built.

[Lord Cameron]

Even if they have the technical expertise to design a brand-new Heavy tank (the Rommel/Patton was notable for this, indicating how unusual that in and of itself was), they then face the monolithic task of securing enough fusion engines to build them in numbers large enough to be a true MBT.
The Concordat does not have the domestic production or trade relationships necessary to deploy a new fusion engine tank, be it the Rommel/Patton or otherwise.

Magna TC may well be importing fusion engines from Magna FWL.  :-\

I do think that an AC/10 is better than an AC 20 (perhaps with an added ML or 2)

[XaosGorilla]

@Tom: Not bad, do like the extra speed, and the extra ac ammo.  Also, it does exactly what it is expected too. No more, no less. Personally, if i have only one gun, I'd rather it be the most versatile one i can get my hands on. But that's me, not you. Kudos! Especially for the fluff which explains the "Rommel" sightings in the TC.

@Lord Cameron: Thank you for that information... i think... ;) 
My other thought is: JOKE/SARCASM MODE ON: OMG!! Now they are retconning the Magna 260! Seems like 1/2 TPTB wont be happy until us poor Taurians are fighting battlemechs with fire sharpened spears! And the other 1/2 will be arguing that the Taurians don't have the brains to master FIRE! JOKE/SARCASM MODE OFF.
Logically, i know that the above comment is not true...  but sometimes my fan pride makes it feel that way. :)
No offense is intended.

[tomaddamz]

They could also build The Moloch...

[tomaddamz]

Or the The Exael...

[tomaddamz]

If you can find a way to run an MBT on a 145 or 175 power plant, sure. Knock yourself out.

it's actually not that hard with the 175 Fusion.

Code: [Select]

Patroklos Main Battle Tank

Mass: 43 tons
Power Plant: Magna 175 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Wyatt Coresteel Standard
Armament:
   1 Magna Hellstar PPC
   1 Shannon Six-Shooter SRM 6
   1 Voelkers 200 Machine Gun
Manufacturer: Vandenberg Mechanized Industries
   Primary Factory: New Vandenberg

Type: Patroklos Main Battle Tank

Technology Base: - I.S. Tracked Vehicle - Level 2 - 43 tons

Equipment                                                  Mass
Internal Structure:                                          4.5
Engine:                   175 Fusion                        10.5
    Cruising MP:           4
    Flank MP:              6
Power Amplifier:                                             0
Heat Sinks:            10 - Single                           0
Control Equipment:                                           2.5
Suspention:                                                  0
Turret:                                                      1
Armor Factor:         184 - Standard                        11.5

                   Internal    Armor
                  Structure    Value
Front                 5         40     
Left                  5         39     
Right                 5         39     
Back                  5         26     
Turret:               5         40     

Weapons, Ammo, and Equipment         Location     Space   Tonnage
PPC                                   Turret        1        7
SRM 6                                 Turret        1        3
Ammo (SRM 6) 15                        Body         1        1
Ammo (SRM 6 - Inferno) 15              Body         1        1
Ammo (MG) 100                          Body         1        0.5
Machine Gun                           Front         1        0.5


Cost: 1,455,263


It's a Rommel/Myrmidon hybrid ( Rommel armor and movement/Myrmidon armament with better anti Infantry firepower). I'd take it to war.

[Psyckosama]

How about this?

Add 5 tons, up the weapons, use the same SFE as the Tbolt

Code: [Select]

          BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
                      VALIDATED

Type/Model:    Moloch II Heavy Tank
Tech:          Inner Sphere / 3041
Config:        Tracked Vehicle
Rules:         Level 1, Standard design

Mass:          65 tons
Power Plant:   260 Magna Fusion
Cruise Speed:  43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type:    StarSlab/6 Standard
Armament:     
  1 Magna Hellstar PPC
  1 Shannon Six-Shooter SRM 6
  1 Delta Dart LRM 15
  4 Sperry Browning Machine Guns
Manufacturer:  Vandenberg Mechanized Industries
  Location:    New Vandernberg
Communications System:  O/P COMSET
Targeting & Tracking System:  O/P 1500 ARB

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Moloch II Heavy Tank
Mass:          65 tons

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  35 pts Standard               0      6.50
Engine:        260 Fusion                    0     13.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment:          0      7.00
    Cruise MP:   4
     Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:     10 Single                    0       .00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      3.50
Crew: 5 Members                              0       .00
Turret Equipment:                            0      2.00
Armor Factor:  160 pts Standard              0     10.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                     7         40
   Left / Right Sides:        7      30/30
   Rear:                      7         25
   Turret:                    7         35

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 PPC                    Turret  10          1      7.00
1 SRM 6                  Turret   0   15     2      4.00
1 LRM 15                 Turret   0   16     2      9.00
2 Machine Guns           Turret   0  100     3      1.50
2 Machine Guns           Front    0          2      1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                          10         10     65.00
Items & Tons Left:                           8       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        3,133,625 C-Bills
Battle Value 2:    1,010 (old BV = 655)
Cost per BV:       3,102.6
Weapon Value:      780 / 780 (Ratio = .77 / .77)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 22;  MRDmg = 14;  LRDmg = 6
BattleForce2:      MP: 4T,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 7
                   Damage PB/M/L: 3/3/2,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: GH;  Point Value: 10

[tomaddamz]

How about this?

Add 5 tons, up the weapons, use the same SFE as the Tbolt

{snipped it's up above}

I think the answer to that my friend is what would be the better use of a 260 Fusion engine; the Moloch II or the Thunderbolt TDR-5S or even a Thunderbolt TDR-7M?  If the major limiting factorâ„¢ is the lack of Fusion Engine production, and not something like Gyroscopes or money...then what would you rather have on the battlefield?

[Psyckosama]

{snipped it's up above}

I think the answer to that my friend is what would be the better use of a 260 Fusion engine; the Moloch II or the Thunderbolt TDR-5S or even a Thunderbolt TDR-7M?  If the major limiting factorâ„¢ is the lack of Fusion Engine production, and not something like Gyroscopes or money...then what would you rather have on the battlefield?

Shockingly enough, throughout the Succession Wars, the Taurian Concordant had a stronger Industrial Base than some SUCCESSOR STATES.

I doubt its a problem, and even if it was... what's better... to put a second line to producing 260 fusion engines for tanks or to start a whole second line building engines usable for only one vehicle?

[Liam's Ghost]

Shockingly enough, throughout the Succession Wars, the Taurian Concordant had a stronger Industrial Base than some SUCCESSOR STATES.

Source? The only thing I know of that even hinted that was combat operation's inner sphere in flames rules, which 1) are intended for game play, and 2) demonstrably flawed in spots.

(of course the notion that the largest and most industrialized periphery state of the succession wars era wouldn't see the value of producing fusion engines for conventional vehicles when itself and its weaker neighbor already were is pretty questionable to. This whole WHOAH, FUSION ENGINES IS RARE is way overblown in my opinion. It's not like we're talking outfitting hundreds, or even dozens of regiments here.)

If I were to build a main battle tank for the Taurians, it'd probably look like this:

Code: [Select]

Mass:          50 tons
Power Plant:   250 Magna Fusion
Cruise Speed:  54.0 km/h
Maximum Speed: 86.4 km/h
Armor Type:    Standard
Armament:     
  1 PPC
  1 SRM 6
  1 Machine Gun
Manufacturer:  (Unknown)
  Location:    (Unknown)
Communications System:  (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System:  (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model:    Untitled
Mass:          50 tons

Equipment:                                 Items    Mass
Int. Struct.:  25 pts Standard               0      5.00
Engine:        250 Fusion                    0     12.50
Shielding & Transmission Equipment:          0      6.50
    Cruise MP:   5
     Flank MP:   8
Heat Sinks:     10 Single                    0       .00
Cockpit & Controls:                          0      2.50
Crew: 4 Members                              0       .00
Turret Equipment:                            0      1.50
Armor Factor:  160 pts Standard              0     10.00

                          Internal    Armor
                          Structure   Value
   Front:                     5         48
   Left / Right Sides:        5      32/32
   Rear:                      5         21
   Turret:                    5         27

Weapons and Equipment    Loc  Heat  Ammo   Items    Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 PPC                    Turret  10          1      7.00
1 SRM 6                  Turret   0   15     2      4.00
1 Machine Gun            Turret   0  100     2      1.00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS:                          10          5     50.00
Items & Tons Left:                          10       .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost:        1,992,500 C-Bills
Battle Value 2:    885 (old BV = 518)
Cost per BV:       2,251.41
Weapon Value:      488 / 488 (Ratio = .55 / .55)
Damage Factors:    SRDmg = 15;  MRDmg = 7;  LRDmg = 2
BattleForce2:      MP: 5T,  Armor/Structure: 0 / 6
                   Damage PB/M/L: 2/2/1,  Overheat: 0
                   Class: GM;  Point Value: 9

Something that offers more firepower to the armor, and can also keep pace with the Vendettes and Hunters.

[Psyckosama]

Source? The only thing I know of that even hinted that was combat operation's inner sphere in flames rules, which 1) are intended for game play, and 2) demonstrably flawed in spots.

Still count as a canon resource...

(of course the notion that the largest and most industrialized periphery state of the succession wars era wouldn't see the value of producing fusion engines for conventional vehicles when itself and its weaker neighbor already were is pretty questionable to. This whole WHOAH, FUSION ENGINES IS RARE is way overblown in my opinion. It's not like we're talking outfitting hundreds, or even dozens of regiments here.)

I agree. Though if you note the date I put the introduction of these in the early 3040s as a reaction to the fact that the Davions were getting more Rommels and Pattons from the Lyrans.

[Stormfury]

Still count as a canon resource...

Before the forums got fried, Herb confirmed those entries were in error and did not indicate the Concordat's military-industrial complex's strength, correctly or otherwise.

of course the notion that the largest and most industrialized periphery state of the succession wars era wouldn't see the value of producing fusion engines for conventional vehicles when itself and its weaker neighbor already were is pretty questionable to. This whole WHOAH, FUSION ENGINES IS RARE is way overblown in my opinion. It's not like we're talking outfitting hundreds, or even dozens of regiments here.

Yes and no.

If the Taurians already had a line for some fusion-powered heavy tank that wasn't an MBT type and re-fitted it, that would be one thing. Establishing a new plant to do that, on the other hand, is a reach.

Then there are the numbers involved. You probably want to supply a company or so per Regiment soon after introduction, which is still going to be ~170 hulls. If you use a 240, you're sacrificing the power plants for that many Riflemans, Awesomes, Stingrays, and so on. Use a 260, and you give up that many Crusaders, Thunderbolts, and  Shilones. Employ a 280 and your WarHammers are in trouble. Or you could use a 300, endangering your Marauders.

The simple fact of the matter is that the surplus engines are not available; the Concordat is already doing things with them. In the Magistracy's case, they have a dedicated (possibly black box-type) facility producing an engine not used for any other domestic product.

The reality is that until some time in the 3060s, it's ICE or bust.

[tomaddamz]

Before the forums got fried, Herb confirmed those entries were in error and did not indicate the Concordat's military-industrial complex's strength, correctly or otherwise.

Yes and no.

If the Taurians already had a line for some fusion-powered heavy tank that wasn't an MBT type and re-fitted it, that would be one thing. Establishing a new plant to do that, on the other hand, is a reach.

I would imagine this to be correct, why incur the development risk of a new powerplant ( that may be sole purpose), it would be simpler to expand known designs.  There would have to be a very big benefit to this.

Then there are the numbers involved. You probably want to supply a company or so per Regiment soon after introduction, which is still going to be ~170 hulls. If you use a 240, you're sacrificing the power plants for that many Riflemans, Awesomes, Stingrays, and so on. Use a 260, and you give up that many Crusaders, Thunderbolts, and  Shilones. Employ a 280 and your WarHammers are in trouble. Or you could use a 300, endangering your Marauders.

Does the TC have a 240 fusion plant in production?  I was not aware of  Rifleman, Awesome, or Stingray type units in production in the TC? Nor Crusader production..am I missing something?

The simple fact of the matter is that the surplus engines are not available; the Concordat is already doing things with them. In the Magistracy's case, they have a dedicated (possibly black box-type) facility producing an engine not used for any other domestic product.

The reality is that until some time in the 3060s, it's ICE or bust.

  While not explicitly stated in canon, I get the feeling that this would be somewhat correct up until 3060. 

New Question::  IF you were to incur the development risk of a new engine (ICE, Fuel Cell, Standard Fusion), what size or sizes of Powerplant would you develop?

[Stormfury]

Does the TC have a 240 fusion plant in production?  I was not aware of  Rifleman, Awesome, or Stingray type units in production in the TC? Nor Crusader production..am I missing something?

They don't have those in production, no. But those are the existing designs (with varying degrees of deployment numbers) that do make use of such engines. So not only are those fusion engine ratings unavailable domestically, you'd be seriously cutting into your ability to do anything with the 60-ton designs and/or your Awesome supply. Plus whatever else you've got (Vulcan, Hermes II, Clint etc) using a 240-rated engine.

If you could increase local production, I'd go for the 300 SFE. That would give you the option of a 10/15 30-tonner, a 6/9 50-tonner, a 5/8 60-tonner, a 4/6 75-tonner, or you can go all out and deploy a 3/5 100-tonner.

[Psyckosama]

Looking back... probably just be easiest to give them a Manticore.

[XaosGorilla]

        The Taurian High Command issued a performance specification for a heavy tank capable of keeping pace with Taurian heavy battlemechs, while having the firepower to destroy, deny or delay and survive contact with enemy forces until friendly reinforcements arrive.
   So the people at Taurian Applied Research and Development went to the drawing board, and came up with a heavy tank. Unfortunatly, in order to meet the weapons requirements for a heavy defensive tank, speed had to be sacrificed.  Most other designers came to the same conclusion.  One design sacrificed all other forms of firepower to get the heavy cannon up to the speed desired.
   None of these designs were accepted by the Taurian High Command, however, the design order wasn't retracted.  So it was back to the drawing board for the engineers.
   The engineers spent a long time working on the problem and came up with only one viable solution.  A fusion powered  tank.  The problem with this is that the SFE power plant raised production costs by more than 1 million C-bills per unit.  Simply not acceptable for a machine that is supposed to be built in quantity.  With the team at a standstill, they decided (while they could still bill the company for it) to go get a drink.  A former special forces officier with a knack for PsyOps overheard them talking(drunkly) and asked a question.  "Which is more important, to actually produce all these tanks with this high-speed engine, or to make the enemy THINK we have produced all these tanks that way?  Where exactly the break even point is on the cost/benefit line can be figured out.  That's what you number crunchers are for."
   The idea simply put, is to design 2 tanks to appear identical. Exact same tonnage, armor, weapons, even the inclusion of a noise maker to ensure the tanks sound the same, and a "heated exhaust" system if necessary.  The difference being that a small number (between 1in 8 and 1in 4) being built with SFE power plants, the rest ICE.  Then, if the mobility of the fusion powered tanks is demonstrated to an enemy, it becomes easy for that same enemy to imagine that the rest of the tanks (that look the same) have the same mobility.  Prompting opponents to fight all the tanks more as if they are fusion powered.  This creates a greater Perceived Force than Actual Force, the greater Perceived force causes the enemy to be more conservative, creating more opportunity for the defender to win.
   After that, this man (at the insistence of the team) was handed an application, and an Identification 10-t form to complete his hire as a creative/military consultant/liasion. The engineers at Taurian Applied Research and Development designed two pairs of tanks to fit the concept, and submitted the new proposal to the Taurian High Command, which has yet to accept or reject it.

Govinda G-20-F
60Tons
BV: 850
Cost: 2,516,100 C-Bills

Movement:4/6(Tracked)
Engine: 240

Internal: 30
Armor: 160
            Internal   Armor
Front         6         37
Right         6         29
Left           6         29
Rear          6         28
Turret        6         37

Weapons          Loc    Heat
Machine Gun      TU      0
Autocannon/20    TU     7
LRM 5                TU     2
SRM 2               TU      2

Ammo                               Loc      Shots
Half Machine Gun Ammo     BD       100
AC/20 Ammo                      BD         5
AC/20 Ammo                      BD         5
LRM 5 Ammo                     BD         24
Half SRM2 Ammo               BD         25

Govinda G-10-F
60 Tons
BV: 799
Cost: 2,440,000 C-Bills

Movement:4/6(Tracked)
Engine: 240

Internal: 30
Armor: 160
            Internal   Armor
Front         6         37
Right         6         29
Left           6         29
Rear          6         28
Turret        6         37

Weapons          Loc    Heat
Machine Gun      TU       0
Autocannon/10   TU        3
LRM 5                TU       2
SRM 4               TU        3

Ammo                                 Loc        Shots
Half Machine Gun Ammo       BD          100
Half Machine Gun Ammo       BD          100
AC/10                                  BD            10
AC/10                                  BD            10
LRM 5                                  BD            24
SRM 4                                 BD            25

Govinda G-20-I
60 tons
BV: 841
Cost: 1,348,800

Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 180 ICE

Internal: 30
Armor: 160
            Internal   Armor
Front         6         37
Right         6         29
Left           6         29
Rear          6         28
Turret        6         37

Weapons          Loc    Heat
Machine Gun      TU      0
Autocannon/20    TU     7
LRM 5                TU     2
SRM 2               TU      2

Ammo                               Loc      Shots
Half Machine Gun Ammo      BD       100
AC/20 Ammo                      BD          5
AC/20 Ammo                      BD          5
AC/20 Ammo                      BD          5
LRM 5 Ammo                      BD         24
LRM 5 Ammo                      BD         24
SRM 2 Ammo                     BD         50

Equipment                            Loc
Extended Fuel Tank (1 ton)     BD

Govinda G-10-I
60 tons
BV: 790
Cost: 1,292,800 C-bills

Movement: 3/5 (Tracked)
Engine: 180 ICE

Internal: 30
Armor: 160
            Internal   Armor
Front         6         37
Right         6         29
Left           6         29
Rear          6         28
Turret        6         37

Weapons          Loc    Heat
Machine Gun      TU      0
Autocannon/10    TU      3
LRM 5                TU      2
SRM 4                TU      3

Ammo                             Loc    Shots
Half Machine Gun Ammo   BD      100
A/C10                              BD        10
AC/10                              BD        10
AC/10                              BD        10
LRM 5                              BD       24
LRM 5                              BD       24
SRM 4                             BD        25
SRM 4                             BD        25

Equipment                            Loc
Extended Fuel Tank (1 ton)     BD

[tomaddamz]

Looking back... probably just be easiest to give them a Manticore.

Or a Bulldog, it's primitive compared to a Manticore...

Easy...yes...opens host of new complaining...well, same old here on the boards.

To me it just lacks elegance, one size fits none; though in all fairness, the Manticore is a pretty solid tank. 

A tank such as this can be done as local project, with existing local materials at hand in canon.  To me it would be more in keeping with the Taurian character to design and build at home.  We have seen a few promising designs (on this board where it should be, and yes I had to look and see I wasn't in the Periphery thread), definitely different ways to look at the problem.  The idea of scarcity, using only what is or was demonstrated to be within their capability, and the necessity of this same design to perform a given task on the battlefield.  To use a real life example, it can be argued the ultimate expression of the MBT is the M1A3 Abrams, if that argument is true, why are countries like Israel not fielding them?  There is a different thought going on here, a different set of design priorities, simply buying someone elses' design does not solve that, not nearly as well as thinking it through yourself.

[Stormfury]

I'd been meaning to have a look at a Fuel Cell engine version of the design I posted before. Basically, unless you have energy weapons, a Fuel Cell engine is an excellent choice on any vehicle until XLs are available- they weigh slightly more than a Fusion engine, but you don't need to add shielding equipment, which helps a lot.

Better still, they are just unpopular on combat vehicles (ie, they are a new item retrofitted to the BT universe...) and used extensively on civilian vehicles still. 

225 Fuel Cell Engine               12
Internal Structure               7.5
Control Equipment               4
Armour               12.5
A/C-10 (Turret)               12
A/C-10 Ammunition (Body)               3
2 SRM-4s (Turret)               4
SRM Ammunition (Body)               2
2 LRM-10s (Turret)               10
LRM Ammunition (Body)               4
2 Machine Guns (1 per side)               1
Machine Gun Ammunition (Body)               0.5
Turret               2.5
               
BV               1238.4
               
Cost               2198437.5
               
Armour Factor               200
Front               45
Sides               40
Rear               35
Turret               40

And there we go. A Close-range punch equal to that of the Rommel (if less concentrated), plus the ability to load Infernos.