Author Topic: More clan Aero questions  (Read 5270 times)

Sjhernan3060

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More clan Aero questions
« on: 30 March 2020, 19:05:59 »
Hello all I am stumped on something esp for aero focused units. So I have been focused on the kindraa mick kreese of the fire mandrills. The lead unit is an all aero unit which is almost exclusively used for void or upper atmosphere engagements so here is my questions:

  • if you have an elite aero unit why would you ever bid it away?
how is honor and goals set up? Would the mission be to destroy all droppers or perhaps a certain amount?
  • can aero units capture droppers that they beat up?
    /li]

Colt Ward

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #1 on: 01 April 2020, 12:16:29 »
Well . . . you do not request/grant Safcon, unless doing so garners you something more- you want to invite them to meet you in the void where your skills outperform.

Sure, Aeros could declare a dropship isorla . . . but IMO you would have had to pull the teeth and break the legs.  Probably not that far b/c aero Trials are designed to preserve the assets though you would have to look at the Ravens for more details on how that is accomplished.  Basically the Nova Cat's Trial of Grievance/Possession against the Bears  that was a WWE is what Clan Naval trials are built to avoid.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #2 on: 06 April 2020, 07:26:31 »
So a canny clan officer esp on the defense could design a trail that really favors aero say a star vs star void battle?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #3 on: 14 April 2020, 08:16:16 »
Also while I love a well painted drop ship wouldn’t repeated atmospheric rentrey burn off that paint???

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #4 on: 14 April 2020, 11:09:22 »
Only if you assume that the next 1,000 years of spaceflight never resulted in some truly magnificent paint formulas.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #5 on: 20 May 2020, 03:33:56 »
As aero forces were often bid down or away entirely during the invasion such as at luthien if a unit is beaten does the portion of the unit which was bid away get sparred the loss of honor for a defeat?

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #6 on: 20 May 2020, 04:11:39 »
As aero forces were often bid down or away entirely during the invasion such as at luthien if a unit is beaten does the portion of the unit which was bid away get sparred the loss of honor for a defeat?
Individually, possibly. It shouldn't go on their record since they weren't involved.So might not effect their standing in the eugenics program or promotions.
But they'd be subject to the loss of reputation experienced by the unit as a whole. If the defeat is bad enough, this might harm their individual standing due to biases on the part of the other people involved.

Ruger

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #7 on: 20 May 2020, 05:55:21 »
Also while I love a well painted drop ship wouldn’t repeated atmospheric rentrey burn off that paint???

Did it on the Space Shuttle?

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glitterboy2098

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #8 on: 20 May 2020, 19:42:11 »
Did it on the Space Shuttle?

Ruger
no, but only because the Space Shuttle did not use paint. it used special pigmented glass coatings on the insulation tiles that made up the outer skin. the coatings on the underside were lost during reentry, intentionally so as part of the ablative heat shielding it used.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #9 on: 24 May 2020, 13:40:44 »
Individually, possibly. It shouldn't go on their record since they weren't involved.So might not effect their standing in the eugenics program or promotions.
But they'd be subject to the loss of reputation experienced by the unit as a whole. If the defeat is bad enough, this might harm their individual standing due to biases on the part of the other people involved.

And so if an elite aero unit felt that it was consistently being poorly used one if their officers could take it up in the circle of equals with the commander?

Sjhernan3060

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #10 on: 13 July 2020, 14:37:00 »
Hello all I am stumped on something esp for aero focused units. So I have been focused on the kindraa mick kreese of the fire mandrills. The lead unit is an all aero unit which is almost exclusively used for void or upper atmosphere engagements so here is my questions:

  • if you have an elite aero unit why would you ever bid it away?
how is honor and goals set up? Would the mission be to destroy all droppers or perhaps a certain amount?
  • can aero units capture droppers that they beat up?
    /li]

Just to clarify: upper atmosphere engagement does that mean they were tasked with knocking out droppers?

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #11 on: 13 July 2020, 15:33:27 »
It would refer to any engagement at high-altitude, such as bringing down enemy units(DropShips included), escorting friendly units through that zone, as well as other nonspecified duties, like recon overflights.
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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #12 on: 13 July 2020, 16:33:06 »
  • if you have an elite aero unit why would you ever bid it away?
how is honor and goals set up? Would the mission be to destroy all droppers or perhaps a certain amount?
  • can aero units capture droppers that they beat up?
    /li]
1.  Just because they excel in that role doesn't mean they don't get used in other ways.
   You could grant Safecon & still use them for attacks once they are grounded.
   Or you don't grant it & attack them as they are coming in.
   But be aware that your HQ Trinary is probably facing a full Trinary of Vet ASF as well as the Droppers on the way in.
   No one is going to come in with just a bunch of eggs to be popped, they will have a full wing of escorts.

2.  Look up the Dragon Roars scenario of in Wave-2 for Lutyen(sp) for scenario rules on an attacking force having to bypass a defending force to still make planet fall.

3.  If you really want to capture them your going to want some other units, like BA included in the Bid, IMHO.
And if you completely disable them you have to then CATCH them since in 0-G they are likely now out of control & flying into Deep Space or getting caught up in the Gravity Well of the planet & plummeting to a fiery death via crash landing.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #13 on: 25 July 2020, 16:04:54 »
Even before they lost two warships in the absorption war debacle the spirits knew they needed more warships to protect transport convoys for raw materials etc. which got me wondering did most warships patrol as convoy escorts as a show of force? I mean Pre - WOR they would not expect to fight but if I convoy did not have armed escorts it would be inviting attack right?

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #14 on: 25 July 2020, 16:23:16 »
Makes sense to have them patrolling.

Even if its nothing more than escorting DS to/from planet/jumppoint for cargo ships.

Sitting around doing nothing is a big waste of time unless someone actively is attacking that planet on the reg.

Exceptions might be permanently stationed at a Shipyard or at the Capital obviously.



I did a custom-homebrew clan years ago & the 5 Warships that didn't have collars or were Destroyer or smaller in sized were part of the "Naval Reserve" and spent their time doing just the above.

IIRC it was 2x Essex, 2x Carrack, 1x Vincent, and they each escorted a star of regular Jumpers with their own stars of droppers.
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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #15 on: 26 July 2020, 20:18:11 »
Even before they lost two warships in the absorption war debacle the spirits knew they needed more warships to protect transport convoys for raw materials etc. which got me wondering did most warships patrol as convoy escorts as a show of force? I mean Pre - WOR they would not expect to fight but if I convoy did not have armed escorts it would be inviting attack right?

Well, there is still Dark/Bandit Castes to worry about. A transport ship with materials and no defenders would be a perfect target.

Sjhernan3060

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #16 on: 26 July 2020, 21:52:57 »
Well, there is still Dark/Bandit Castes to worry about. A transport ship with materials and no defenders would be a perfect target.
Right! Duh I totally forgot that and perhaps that is where a lot of warships got actually fighting done? Fighting off raiders?

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #17 on: 26 July 2020, 22:03:30 »
Right! Duh I totally forgot that and perhaps that is where a lot of warships got actually fighting done? Fighting off raiders?

Yes.  That's the primary source of warship battles throughout most of Clan history.   

There are reasons that the Snow Ravens tended to do internal trials by simulator.  Warships are too expensive to lose in a trial of position for a Naval commander.  Likewise, most other Clans avoided warship battles.  Bandits and dark caste were it for a long time.  (And even then, bandits were not hunted too efficiently.  After all, let just enough go, and they repopulate so there is always more bandits for young Clan warriors to hunt.)

Until the Wars of Reaving.   
« Last Edit: 26 July 2020, 23:18:38 by rebs »
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Colt Ward

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #18 on: 27 July 2020, 12:22:35 »
Yes.  That's the primary source of warship battles throughout most of Clan history.   

There are reasons that the Snow Ravens tended to do internal trials by simulator.  Warships are too expensive to lose in a trial of position for a Naval commander.  Likewise, most other Clans avoided warship battles.  Bandits and dark caste were it for a long time.  (And even then, bandits were not hunted too efficiently.  After all, let just enough go, and they repopulate so there is always more bandits for young Clan warriors to hunt.)

Until the Wars of Reaving.

Sort of . . . the Clans will fight Trials with warships and dropships but they do not fight to destruction like mechs, ASF, Elementals & armor.  We are told at least once they fight to things like until internal damage is scored or a weapon gets crit.
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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #19 on: 27 July 2020, 14:48:40 »
If that is the case then clearly they changed their tune when it comes to facing IS WS.

Serpent v/s G-Bears & Serpent v/s Jags both had the clan ships fighting till destroyed IIRC.

Also the G-Bear & N-Cat battle over Alshain? was anything but kind to those ships too.

I think the Vipers v/s Ravens in the 60's also had ships destroyed at Lum didn't they?

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Colt Ward

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #20 on: 27 July 2020, 15:45:57 »
Serpent captured the Bear's Whirlwind, and had two warships along with the JS flotilla at Huntress- Streaking Mist and one destroyer sized ship.

But what you are citing were critical actions.  It is in the fluff that historically warship trials were to light damage and the Ravens held a lot of their internal trials through simulators.

Lum with Ravens vs Vipers was a grudge match- safcon was not granted so destruction was assured.
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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #21 on: 27 July 2020, 16:49:05 »
The idea of Clan warships fighting limited trials comes from a small bit of text in FM: WC, in the Clan Snow Raven section. It basically says that most Trials involving warships are limited to some criteria short of complete destruction.

It's clear that that in this reference that it's referring to fairly routine and small scale Trials of Possession. E.g. I want to fight you for that dropship and its cargo. I want to fight you for the rights to mine this asteroid.

Keep in mind the Ravens had greater incentive over the generations to use their warships in combat than most other Clans. They had a lot of them, they had some big shipyards for repair/construction, they specifically bred warriors of the Naval Bloodlines for that purpose and they trained their warship crews to a particularly elite pedigree. You can't expect a Sukhanov bloodnamed warrior to go their entire warrior career having never fought in a live fire Trial from their warship.

That's very different from the other Clans which used aerospace pilots. So the warriors got to get some battles in from a cockpit before making the transformation into warship officer. At that point, especially if they already had a bloodname, they had a solid codex and could shift their emphasis from achieving as many battlefield victories as possible to something more strategic like command of one or more warships, which is a big responsibility.

I think it's entirely possible that the Ravens were one of the few Clans routinely going around issuing Trials of Possession via a warship on something like a regular basis.

So the Ravens had this down to a science, on how to use their warship fleet in combat without decimating it. The other Clans maybe not to their extent but forced to play the Ravens game (and sometimes borrowing pieces of the Ravens' playbook). They might have played it a little faster, a little looser, more easily skewing toward either bidding away the warships from the upcoming Trial, or throwing them into a very destructive battle with no limitations. If the two Clans were in "feuding" status this became more likely, such as between the Blood Spirits and the Star Adders.

FM: WC, page 31 gives us another good reference to a limited Trial in the Clan Cloud Cobra section. It tells us of a 3-warship Smoke Jaguar fleet showing up in Cloud Cobra territory trialing for repairs from a Cloud Cobra recharge station, the Cobras sent in a single Liberator-class warship and some assault dropships. Ten minutes later the Jaguars accepted hegira, left behind a Fredasa warship and Miraborg dropship as isorla and left. It's a very brief reference but its an excellent case in the kind of limited Trials warships sometimes fight.

Engagements against Spheroids don't follow Clan Trial procedures so that didn't apply. Even then we did see a Whirlwind surrender to Taskforce Serpent, the Clan warrior commanding the warship declared that his ship was damaged and unable to continue to fight effectively (sounds a lot like a Clan style Trial in mentality actually...)

As Colt said, the Ravens and Vipers got real nasty and bitter and tended toward a more destructive mentality.

At Alshain, the Ghost Bears overreacted. The Nova Cats showed up for an orderly Trial but the Ghost Bears refused the Trial, took it as something much more Spheroid-like (aka an invasion) and just went to attack speed and opened fire. The Ghost Bear commander later did the Surkai thing (rite of forgiveness). So we just don't know exactly how the Nova Cats might have tried to conduct the Trial, with what specific ships, what conditions etc. The normal bidding did not take place. According to the Nova Cat commanding officer on-site the other warships were just coming to watch the Trial. That being said a fight to the death of some number of warships (whether 1-v-1 or a few more than that) is still probable here because the prize (a Leviathan) was so big and valuable, it was not an insignificant objective to fight over.

When we get into the Wars of Reaving era, limited Trials go out the window and Clan warships start blowing up left and right. Keep in mind with so many Trials of Abjurement and Annihilation going on, that changes the stakes from a limited Trial of Possession to a true life or death situation for the warrior, unit or Clan. Plus when it came to eliminating the "tainted" Clans nothing like Zell was applied, it was scorched earth tactics, even orbital bombardment was used frequently.

The Wars of Reaving were all the way on one extreme but we do have at least one meaningful precedent for that kind of full-fleet mobilization. When Clan Smoke Jaguar went to absorb Clan Mongoose, it resulted in at least one major naval battle above Circe involving like 30 warships in a death struggle. So when it's not a small objective, when its a major objective, a big deal and particularly life-or-death for the Clan as a whole, all the warship nastiness seems to come out. Which makes sense, if you are on the receiving end of a Trial of Abjurement or Absorption or Annihilation, you are going all-in on the upcoming fight.

« Last Edit: 27 July 2020, 17:12:03 by Alan Grant »

Sjhernan3060

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #22 on: 18 August 2020, 21:46:59 »
I am building a kindraa mick kreese force which is noted for being aero and zero g combat focused. This kindraa also had a Potemkin warship. With that kind of flavor would a unit like that do a lot of convoy protection and or convoy raiding?

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #23 on: 18 August 2020, 22:20:46 »
Protection. The Potemkin isn't a raider, it's a one-ship convoy.
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Colt Ward

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #24 on: 18 August 2020, 23:48:46 »
Yeah, its basically a heavy cruiser or even a battlecruiser armament that can load two dozen DS and a crap ton of cargo.
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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #25 on: 19 August 2020, 09:48:20 »
The Diamond Sharks were noted for putting some troops/units on their Potemkins and even a few combat dropships on their Potemkins, which could serve as a ready reserve even when the Potemkin was acting primarily as merchant dropship carriers. I could see something similar at work here for what that Potemkin could be doing much of the time.

I wouldn't completely rule out raiding, but it would be rare, more limited to larger scale operations and more like the Potemkin just acting as a support/command/control vessel than participating.

An example would be using it to carry a full Cluster to a different solar system. Where they fight a Trial of possession over something sizable. Or a whole bunch of dropships and their cargo sitting there. If the Kindraa win the Trial, the Potemkin has the dropship collars to bring the force, the isorla and the target of the Trial all back under respectable security.

But in most cases it would be better to use jumpships so you aren't potentially moving a single valuable warship out of being able to protect your enclaves. But its not out of the question, and the Kindraa does have that aero/space focus, so they may be more inclined to use the Potemkin that way from time to time to exploit that expertise. The Fire Mandrills don't seem like they have a lot of resources, I always got the impression that being aggressive with other Kindraa and other Clans was just their norm to get what they needed to survive and thrive.

The problem with having just 2 warships, a Potemkin and a Lola III in this case, is that they just can't cover all the places you need them to protect at once. That means moving the Potemkin away from your enclaves is a big deal and a big risk and so you can't do it very frequently. Or you risk another Kindraa or another Clan showing up with a large force and instantly having air/space superiority over your enclaves. Even with following proper Trial/Batchall procedures, yielding the air and space to such a force can mean they just park themselves there and gain an excellent command/control/surveillance position over your enclaves while they plan out a sequence of proper Trials expected to last weeks and months.

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #26 on: 19 August 2020, 11:01:20 »
Do the Kindraa each own more than one Enclave?

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #27 on: 19 August 2020, 11:43:36 »
Yes, as of FM: CC Kindraa Mick-Kreese have clusters deployed on both Atreus and Shadow.

Their 4th Elemental Assault Force is actually showed a being deployed on the Jungle Heat (The Potemkin).

All of the Kindraa seem to have Clusters split up among at least 2 worlds.
« Last Edit: 19 August 2020, 11:46:31 by Alan Grant »

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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #28 on: 19 August 2020, 12:54:19 »
I love it!  Fire Mandrill space marines permanently stationed on their most valuable WarShip.
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Re: More clan Aero questions
« Reply #29 on: 19 August 2020, 13:02:50 »
As far as i understand the time where warships are used in active combat are long gone. Even the clans haven't enough yards to repair massiv combat damage on a lot of ships or rebuild lost contingents. We heard much about lacking experience when they had to fight IS warships.
That in mind all warships are limited to escort service (against whom?) or reduced to simple jumpship duty i guess.