Upcoming Releases Volume XV: Pitter Patter Let's Get At'er

[Scotty]

I'd be happy with (and buy all of) 5-12 new 'Mechs (with at most 2-3 variants) a year if they sprang fully formed into my FLGS from Ray's head like Athena from Zeus.

Any more than that and how the hell is anyone supposed to know what X or Y new mech is or does?

[BirdofPrey]

I'd be happy with (and buy all of) 5-12 new 'Mechs (with at most 2-3 variants) a year if they sprang fully formed into my FLGS from Ray's head like Athena from Zeus.

Any more than that and how the hell is anyone supposed to know what X or Y new mech is or does?

I think it's a careful balance.

We need some new mechs and variants and other new things to keep people engaged and give them things to buy, but not so much to flood and not sell and scare new people.

Where that balance is? I don't pretend to know.

That's about where I sit.

I ABSOLUTELY think we need new units to move the timeline forward, but I think it needs to be a fairly limited number.  The first obvious reason is simply to control the bloat to a point where people can actually remember what the new mechs are, but more than that is for minis.
Granted BT isn't WYSIWYG, so it's not super critical, but it's still nice to be able to see a nice new design that you like and be able to field it without waiting a super long time which happens when IWM has dozens of units to make molds for, and fewer minis also leaves room for game stores to actually carry miniatures.

As far as in general, I've said it several times that I think a slight retconning might be in order to, each era, trim out a few older units as newer designs come on the field so that, for any given era and faction, there's a manageable list of units to choose from rather than to just keep adding and adding until trying to pick a heavy mech for a Marik force means scrolling through a list of a hundred mechs.

Few can remember that many mechs or parse such a list which is why you tend to see the same couple dozen designs used by any given player.  Humans simply aren't equipped to deal with that much more.

Also, again, I think the TROs by era is still a good idea: it's MUCH easier to parse, I am looking for a Clan Invasion mech so I'll look at TRO:CI than trying to search through 4 separate tomes (yes, I know there's only 3 set in that era, but a few designs in later books are said to be from around the Invasion era).  It's just that the execution was lacking a bit due with CI having some earlier designs.

[Wrangler]

It does make you wonder. Since the introduction of the era themed TROs. It makes you think there could be a couple more to me is kind of I don't know. I don't like the idea. Probably a book for the Civil War era then the Jihad era in the Dark Age Era.

Were stuck in this "pause" in stories and movement franchise story.
Likely, were not going to see much until KS out of the way..

[Sartris]

As far as in general, I've said it several times that I think a slight retconning might be in order to, each era, trim out a few older units as newer designs come on the field so that, for any given era and faction, there's a manageable list of units to choose from rather than to just keep adding and adding until trying to pick a heavy mech for a Marik force means scrolling through a list of a hundred mechs.

they took a softer version of this route. the era-based TROs don't include everything - CI, less than half of 3050-55-58-60. it's not a retcon, but a consciousness prune. it should be pretty clear by now that they don't intend to recon any units out (and my Daikyu mini thanks them for this).  the decision to take a broad rather than narrow force building approach will always cause headaches in that regard. the combat manual availability tables that reigned in some of the firehose effect the MUL can dump on the unintitatied are perhaps what i miss most about that series.   

a very unheralded piece from Turning Points: Vega (3039) was the inclusion of standard lances for steiner and davion (pg11) - a take on the same sort of organization found in the back of NAIS 4th Succession War Atlas vol 2 (pg 98), but to CampOps unit building standards. i'd certainly like to see more of these for more factions in various eras


the problem with the line as it stands is the poor scaffolding to usher people from one era to another. from a business perspective, ineffective funneling of players into the far end of the timeline means a smaller customer base for where any new TROs (read as not era compilations) or any other sourcebooks are going to be situated. the boxes help with this. i think they could be far more explicit about product branching, but it's a step in the right direction. the addition of clear signposts toward more modern (or at least in-print products) that provide setting details in addition to mechs adds some substance, rather than regarding a new era merely as an equipment expansion pack. this flow has been neglected for a long, long time so building it up is going to take some real effort (and years). they were right to do what they did with refocusing on the core game experience and it's going to take some time to mend the foundation before adding on too many more floors.

[Cubby]

Well. I missed some stuff in this thread.

the problem with the line as it stands is the poor scaffolding to usher people from one era to another.

This is basically the reason (as far as I'm aware, but I'm pretty aware) why the newer "reprint" TROs have been titled to era and not year. It's a marketing thing.

For a new player / customer, "3050" versus "3075" means nothing. They're numbers. Yes, to you, the experienced smartypants, those numbers instantly register as "initial Clan Invasion" and "depths of the Jihad."

Recent sourcebooks have all borne the various era logos, with the era in which that book is set (more or less) highlighted. It's not applied  perfectly, but that's the guidepost for a new customer to understand what they're looking at. Same reason that most of those books carry a page explaining each era, next to that era's same logo.

In a perfect, more organized world, there would be better funnels built to guide new customers where to go. At the moment, the best we can do is try to be matchy-matchy with era naming conventions.

When we were devising Chaos Campaign: Succession Wars, I suggested that as the name, because it plugs in "correctly" with TRO: Succession Wars and Record Sheets: Succession Wars. We want to avoid customers having to know things that aren't intuitive. "Oh, I see, this book I'm holding is "TRO: 3025," and I know that year is the Fourth Succession War." It's too much. Even the reprint TRO 3025 put "The Succession Wars" on the cover. TRO 3050 put "The Return of Kerensky" on its cover. And so on.

[Sartris]

The newest version of the primer is the best effort in a while. I understand the reticence to point to too many established products (ca 2007-2015)  as they don’t play nicely with the post 2017-18 restructure. I ran into a similar problem when writing my own guide when pointing to stuff like HTP: Mallory’s World as there were a lot of elements (especially old map sheets) that would rank on the bad end of the “get it cheaply” scale.

At this point it seems the revival of the base game experience continues to be a fruitful avenue. Once the full range of KS stuff hits store shelves, the entry point seems much more clear

[RifleMech]

The name "Succesion Wars" doesn't mean anything to a new player until they read the back cover. And then say they're including mechs from the Age of War to the Succession Wars? For an experienced player that's 500+ years. For the newbie that's how many eras shoved into one book? ??? And then reading the entries it talks about things that happen long past the Succession Wars. That makes it more confusing as it covered even more time.

It's like buying a  book on Vietnam Era Tanks and finding it full of WWII tanks, with information about their variants from the late 1990s and even a Mark IV thrown in just for fun. It's all over the place. As a big generic compilation TRO, it's good. A single era TRO, not so much.

Dates TROs don't mean much to new players either. At least not until they pick up the book and read the back cover and introduction page. There they'd learn about where the book and how the units within fit into things. It isn't difficult to understand. The Upgrade ones could be a bit since it talks about things far after the TRO's date. I wish they were called Updates instead since the stats aren't for Upgraded variants. I know that's more a pet peeve but when the first Upgrade came out I was looking forward to upgraded units. Like how TRO:3050 upgraded units from TRO:3025. They're still good, just not what I'd hoped. Oh well.

And there's got to be new TROs. You can't go forward or backward without a TRO to show new units or variants. Going forward, I don't know that every existing unit needs to be updated. At least not officially. After all we have been given the tools to do it ourselves. That'd also reflect unpopular lines, or those with expired licenses, shutting down and being retooled to produce all new designs. It's a natural process and would keep the number of designs in production down. However as the designs are not extinct players can still use them. Which is why older books should remain available without having to spend hundreds on them. So players can have access to them.

That said, revised editions allows for new information to be added, such as corrections to Comstar/WoB misinformation. Which of course leaves the door open for such misinformation in the first place. Other chances can included correcting errors, adding possible down grades in the variant section and extinctions, or presumed extinctions. They could also include new art if needed as being a version produced by a different factory. Also stats could be revised to include things we didn't have rules for originally such as full head ejection systems and quirks.

[Scotty]

The name "Succesion Wars" doesn't mean anything to a new player until they read the back cover. And then say they're including mechs from the Age of War to the Succession Wars? For an experienced player that's 500+ years. For the newbie that's how many eras shoved into one book? ??? And then reading the entries it talks about things that happen long past the Succession Wars. That makes it more confusing as it covered even more time.

These distinctions, much like the tank example after this paragraph, mean very little to a new player.  They are examples fundamentally born of viewing the presentation through the lens of 10-30+ years of information that you find personally relevant.  For the new player who recognizes the name "BattleTech" and picks up a book titled "Technical Readout: The Succession Wars", it's pretty evident that they're reading a book full of 'Mech designs that were used during the Succession Wars.  It is really that simple.  Quibbling "but it's not technically just the Succession Wars![/i]" is unnecessary obfuscation.

[RifleMech]

These distinctions, much like the tank example after this paragraph, mean very little to a new player.  They are examples fundamentally born of viewing the presentation through the lens of 10-30+ years of information that you find personally relevant.  For the new player who recognizes the name "BattleTech" and picks up a book titled "Technical Readout: The Succession Wars", it's pretty evident that they're reading a book full of 'Mech designs that were used during the Succession Wars.  It is really that simple.  Quibbling "but it's not technically just the Succession Wars![/i]" is unnecessary obfuscation.

These distinctions, much like the tank example after this paragraph, mean very little to a new player.  They are examples fundamentally born of viewing the presentation through the lens of 10-30+ years of information that you find personally relevant.  For the new player who recognizes the name "BattleTech" and picks up a book titled "Technical Readout: The Succession Wars", it's pretty evident that they're reading a book full of 'Mech designs that were used during the Succession Wars.  It is really that simple.  Quibbling "but it's not technically just the Succession Wars![/i]" is unnecessary obfuscation.

I don't have to be a long time fan to read.
From the rear cover.

this volume features some of the most common ’Mechs from the Age of War to the Succession Wars.

That in itself makes the name misleading. Reading is even more so. Not only are there mechs that didn't get to the Succession Wars much less through them but it talks about events and variants that take place after the Succession Wars. And that's with through the lens of experience. Think about new players.

The very first mech, the Flea, starts off with it being scrapped and then resurrected during the Fourth Succession War. The first date in Deployment is 3032 and goes up from there. As a new player does that mean the Forth Succession War continued past 3041 when the Dragoon's contract expires?   ??? It must right since the Flea was resurrected during that War.

When does the Fourth Succession War end? The Mercury fluff says it disappeared during the Succession Wars but that it comes back mid 31st century. That means its available during the Fourth Succession War? It also means that WoB won the Succession Wars  in 3054 after they took Terra from Comstar and recreated Star League, right? Why was their Second Star League blighted? Is that when the Clans invaded or did the Clans work for WoB?

[Adrian Gideon]

If y’all want to boil this debate into a simple question, I might try to definitively answer it, if it means putting an end to it. But otherwise I’ll have to ask that it all goes elsewhere. Thanks.

[Wrangler]

Is there anything coming out? We really don't have much to talk about.  This discussion was about upcoming releases we know nothing about them now what was mentioned maybe last year.

[Adrian Gideon]

Yes, everything in the Kickstarter.

[SteveRestless]

Personally, I disagree with the notion that there are too many mechs. Particularly on the clan side during the invasion era. If you only ever play at the start to trinary level, it's harder to notice, but when you build units at the cluster/galaxy/touman scale, you notice that with only the classic invasion omnis, things start looking really same-y.

A Big Reason I'm looking forward to the eventual possibility of TRO:GC, because more pre-invasion-era mechs means more that I can bring forward into a revised campaign depicting a more fleshed out Operation REVIVAL. One where there's less overlap between wolf, falcon, jaguar and bear.

[Fat Guy]

Anything not in the Kickstarter coming anytime before spring?

[Sartris]

It would be a bonus / surprise

[Colt Ward]

Personally, I disagree with the notion that there are too many mechs. Particularly on the clan side during the invasion era. If you only ever play at the start to trinary level, it's harder to notice, but when you build units at the cluster/galaxy/touman scale, you notice that with only the classic invasion omnis, things start looking really same-y.

A Big Reason I'm looking forward to the eventual possibility of TRO:GC, because more pre-invasion-era mechs means more that I can bring forward into a revised campaign depicting a more fleshed out Operation REVIVAL. One where there's less overlap between wolf, falcon, jaguar and bear.

Huh?  TRO3055, 58, 60 & 67 ALL had mechs that were backdated to be available during the Invasion- Bears could take a Stooping Hawk, Falcons could have had a Battle Cobra, the Jaguars a Kingfisher, and the Wolves could have used a Lupus -granted stats came later, but it was referenced.  I think it gets more interesting where you run into things like for a while the Nova Cats did not list the Nova Cat D on their configs- it was a Ghost Bear config using isorla Omnis.

[SteveRestless]

Even with those, you don't really start getting enough variety to have truly unique forces by clan until the 3145 TROs. Especially since many of the additions the clans get in those mid-game TROs aren't Omnis, but second line machines. TRO:GC would be unlikely to expand omni options as far as I'd like, but any expansion of options is welcome in my book.

[RifleMech]

Personally, I disagree with the notion that there are too many mechs. Particularly on the clan side during the invasion era. If you only ever play at the start to trinary level, it's harder to notice, but when you build units at the cluster/galaxy/touman scale, you notice that with only the classic invasion omnis, things start looking really same-y.

A Big Reason I'm looking forward to the eventual possibility of TRO:GC, because more pre-invasion-era mechs means more that I can bring forward into a revised campaign depicting a more fleshed out Operation REVIVAL. One where there's less overlap between wolf, falcon, jaguar and bear.

I'd agree that there's never too many mechs. Or anything other units. I'm of mixed feeling about their being same-y though. OMNIs have lots of different known configurations plus all the custom ones players can make. We actually had more with the improved weapons from TRO:3050. Their being made extinct limits things a bit, Still the fronline forces could still vary wildly. More so when you bring up units from the second line. More so than the frontlines.

[Sartris]

If y’all want to boil this debate into a simple question, I might try to definitively answer it, if it means putting an end to it. But otherwise I’ll have to ask that it all goes elsewhere. Thanks.

[SteveRestless]

More so when you bring up units from the second line. More so than the frontlines.

That's part of the dilemma on the clan front, with the whole Prestige and Honor issues associated with using Pure Omni formations rather than shuffling in static battlemechs. We're told they didn't really do much of that during REVIVAL in frontline units.

[Scotty]

So it's not actually an issue of not enough variery, it's an issue of being unable to sufficiently tailor this straitjacket of your own creation with the materials you want to use.

[SteveRestless]

Attempting to adhere to canon practices and attitudes is important to me. I appreciate when the game makes that easier, and chafe when the game makes that harder.

[Colt Ward]

We have 3 to 5 of every Omni that is available in the Invasion with different configs.  I have played with some of the Invasion forces from the telephone book of WCSB . . . IF I went straight with what they had listed for say a Trinary . . . yeah, I may have 6 Gargoyles- but that means I can have a Prime, A, C and D without having to embrace the awful B.  It leaves me with two that will be duplicates without getting into say a Star Captain's tailored ride or selecting something like the Gargoyle Connal.  Timber Wolf?  Prime, A, C, D, S, and Pryde.  TPTB have noticed that problem IMO and besides getting the Omnis that could have also been present we have also gotten other 3050 compatible designs.

[SteveRestless]

and for those, for whom that is sufficient, that's great.

I'm just saying, there's a perspective from which more design choices is a welcome thing.

[Weirdo]

Hey, y'all remember when the Battletech Line Developer asked you to take all that to a new thread?

Consider it to have a ++mod notice++ behind it now.

[klarg1]

<posted before reading the rest of the thread and LD/mod updates>

Mods: Please delete if appropriate.

[Cubby]

A quick note here, since someone might see it and freak out: I just went through the Coming Releases page and removed the already-released stuff from there, and made a few other minor tweaks.

I realize that doesn't leave a lot of upcoming product on there....except the massive, massive pile of KS stuff we're making that's not currently reflected on that page. I need to think through (and ask management) how to tackle that. Most likely, I won't add any KS-related products to the Coming Releases page unless/until I have some clarity on when they're hitting general retail. The Coming Releases page is part of the public website and not the KS, after all, so I think there needs to be a separation of church and state, based on dates of availability.

[NeonKnight]

Cool - thanx!

[Sartris]

I realize that doesn't leave a lot of upcoming product on there....except the massive, massive pile of KS stuff we're making that's not currently reflected on that page.

REG: They've bled us white, the bastards. They've taken everything we had, and not just from us, from our fathers, and from our fathers' fathers.

LORETTA: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers.

REG: Yeah.

LORETTA: And from our fathers' fathers' fathers' fathers.

REG: Yeah. All right, Stan. Don't labour the point. And what have they ever given us in return?!

XERXES: The aqueduct?

REG: What?

XERXES: The aqueduct.

REG: Oh. Yeah, yeah. They did give us that. Uh, that's true. Yeah.

COMMANDO #3: And the sanitation.

LORETTA: Oh, yeah, the sanitation, Reg. Remember what the city used to be like?

REG: Yeah. All right. I'll grant you the aqueduct and the sanitation are two things that the Romans have done.

MATTHIAS: And the roads.

REG: Well, yeah. Obviously the roads. I mean, the roads go without saying, don't they? But apart from the sanitation, the aqueduct, and the roads--

COMMANDO: Irrigation.

XERXES: Medicine.

COMMANDOS: Huh? Heh? Huh...

COMMANDO #2: Education.

COMMANDOS: Ohh...

REG: Yeah, yeah. All right. Fair enough.

COMMANDO #1: And the wine.

COMMANDOS: Oh, yes. Yeah...

FRANCIS: Yeah. Yeah, that's something we'd really miss, Reg, if the Romans left. Huh.

COMMANDO: Public baths.

LORETTA: And it's safe to walk in the streets at night now, Reg.

FRANCIS: Yeah, they certainly know how to keep order. Let's face it. They're the only ones who could in a place like this.

REG: All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

XERXES: Brought peace.

REG: Oh. Peace? Shut up!

[Daryk]

ROFL!  Good one, Sartris!  ;D