Author Topic: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen  (Read 217908 times)

Hythos

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #900 on: 26 May 2018, 13:07:56 »
Highly unfortunate both quirks and SPAs lack proper balancing methods.
Interesting stuff, but some of them have massive impact on things, both positively and negatively.
AToW balances things if between two freshly made pilots of equal XP...
Just as record sheets & AS cards don't show the formulas to build the unit, these pilot cards aren't showing the character's full MW stats. Yes, RS's can be extrapolated, but because characters improve through play, balance is not a thing between skilled/advanced/played/XP'd pilots.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2018, 13:11:35 by Hythos »
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #901 on: 26 May 2018, 13:10:12 »
AToW balances things if between two freshly made pilots of equal XP...
Just as record sheets & AS cards don't show the formulas to build the unit, these pilot cards aren't showing the character's full MW stats. Yes, RS's can be extrapolated, but because characters improve through play, balance is not a thing between pilots.

They're not using ATOW.  ATOW has prerequisites (other SPAs, skill levels, etc) that aren't used for these.  There's no ATOW "behind the scenes" on these, so it's not balancing them.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #902 on: 26 May 2018, 16:15:07 »
I don't do ATOW, and i don't think RPG systems work as the kind of balancing system i'm thinking here in any case.

The problem with separate SPA budget is that it doesn't take units into account. For example, the "PPC specialist" boosts value of an Awesome way more than it boosts a BattleMaster, and is worthless in PPC-less 'Mech. Yet you pay the same cost all the same. (Yes, i notice the pilots with that SPA aren't in the box sets, but the same principle applies to other abilities as well.)

I figure the pilot cards and SPAs for them are pretty good addition to a box set. But i am very concerned whether i can use them practically.

Same thing with quirks. Like the concept, especially now that BMM included quirks for most 'Mechs that were missing them. But the quirks cannot be balanced really, not since there is BV-modifiers for them or something like that. Some are really good, others are crippling.

I'm not keen on "gut-feeling" balancing for non-RPG games.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #903 on: 26 May 2018, 16:44:07 »
A guy i used game with modded Shadow Run 5 system, it works fine.

I wish CGL would consider using that system. No disrespect to herb but it was funner experience for me.  I like rolling more than pair of 2 siders.  It does need be adjusted for Battletech but it does work good.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #904 on: 26 May 2018, 17:16:04 »
As for piloting abilities, I would assume a player would tailor the piloting abilities to the mechs they're assigning them to. So a Battlemaster would probably have weapon specialist medium laser instead, or more likely some physical combat abilities.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #905 on: 26 May 2018, 17:23:02 »
Even if abilities are tailored, their value depends a lot on the unit overall.


Are the pilot cards as they are intended to be used with the 'Mech in the card?

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #906 on: 26 May 2018, 19:40:40 »
Has anyone actually played heavily with pilot abilities or are we just worrying endlessly about shit in theory that may or may not be a problem?

In my campaigns I allow players to buy abilities as the campaign goes on and balancing against them by point values vs point values works ok. Sometimes you get boned, yeah. Like the time a guy with Weapon Specialist: UAC/20 went and got his blitzkrieg cored and it took months to find a new ride.  You occasionally have a situational disadvantage where abilities aren’t optimal, sure, but it’s not nearly as bad as paying for a C3 network and end up facing a wall of ECM or running LRM boats on a shoebox-sized map

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #907 on: 26 May 2018, 21:11:30 »
Raising gunnery skill raises BV quite a bit (lowering, you know what i mean :P). Effectively raising gunnery skill via SPAs should have similar effect. For an Awesome, Danny Hubbard's ability is effectively raising his gunnery by 2. OK, that is actually pretty simple to account in BV. But even having limited number of weapons with better gunnery has effect on things, just like TarComp or AES or integral to-hit bonuses do.

Effectiveness of things varies, of course. Speed Demon is a trade-off in itself, so it probably doesn't need to modify BV. Then again, you have Forest Ranger, that in right map can have quite significant effect but might not. Jumping Jack is always massively beneficial when jumping, and jump capability increases BV, so shouldn't even better jumping capability do that so as well?

I play BV exclusively BV balanced games, so yeah, stuff like this matters to me. And yes, i'd be interested in using Pilot Cards SPAs (and quirks) because they add much to pilots who are otherwise just stats on paper.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #908 on: 26 May 2018, 21:17:43 »
If spas are situational how do you cost them

Try playing cost vs cost it’s not as awful as you imagine.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2018, 21:20:49 by Sartris »

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #909 on: 26 May 2018, 21:26:58 »
I am hoping game developers would come up with a system for that. Considering BT has rules for some really, really... inane things, i'd say proper balancing rules for quirks and SPAs would fit right in, hell they'd probably be more used than many, many optional rules.
Even if some things are situational, they can be extremely powerful when the right situation comes by.
And there are costs for situational things in BT already. Such as MASC/Jump jet combo that makes unit cost more than it is really worth because both cannot be used at once (effectively you pay for situational versatility).

Ideally there should be some kind of dynamic costing system.

EDIT It isn't that cost vs cost can't work. It is that i prefer more accuracy than that. Tonnage vs tonnage works for introtech games, but i very much prefer BV for greater accuracy even for just introtech.
« Last Edit: 26 May 2018, 21:35:26 by Empyrus »

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #910 on: 26 May 2018, 21:43:23 »
As a counter point you don't adjust the BV of a 1G Battlemaster if it is forced to fight on open terrain nor does a FS9-H Firestarter if there is a bunch of infantry on the board.

SPAs do have their own point cost, like design quirks.  So if one side gets 10 points of SPAs so should the other side.  It seems to work well enough for all the other arbitrary numbers that Battletech uses that are just as situational, if not more so.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #911 on: 26 May 2018, 21:46:25 »
BV is far from perfect, it’s just the imperfect system you’ve adjusted for.

Spa points for points is fine in my experience outside of a few horrendously abusive combos like range master long + oblique attacks

If you’ve got some real experience playing with them heavily, we can talk about that but I im done dancing in circles imagining how something might work

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #912 on: 26 May 2018, 21:52:40 »
Just go snuggle with him. He can't use that Small Laser like Aiden Pryde.

Yeah, but a base 4 four kicking, with that -2 mod... He's still a better close combatant than your standard pilot, let alone any green pilot.



That said, when are we going to see a little more from the pending Field Manual: Noble, Mercs and Militias - Oh, My(!)? In a lot of the older field manuals, all we get are the front line 'Stars' of the setting, but a lot of game-play seems to be regulated to small-time merc bands, local Nobles with their retinues, and maybe militia formations. While I like to see the standard military break-down for the house elites, I'd love to at least see blurbs and standards for nobility on any given planet, how militia determine what's available to them, and how many small merc bands are on retainer that don't leave a given system at any given time?

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #913 on: 26 May 2018, 21:54:48 »
Current;y I do not believe that SPAs have a BV cost associated with them. Do remember though that the SPAs are also an optional rule so you don't have to use it.

I did run specialist weapons through the Heavy Metal BV calculator in the custom weapons page, and there was a slight mark-up. There is some kind of formula. With something like that, it's not hard to make the change, and even have a note on the custom sheet that it's pilot is a specialist in the weapon.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #914 on: 26 May 2018, 21:55:32 »
We already have rules for determining the militia strength of any given world, in the Objectives series.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #915 on: 26 May 2018, 22:20:25 »
There is also the old Hot Spots books that give numbers on creating random garrison or raid opfors iirc. Or maybe it was Brush Wars.... I know it is in an older set of books.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #916 on: 26 May 2018, 22:22:35 »
So, it's in the Objectives series, and is a new player directed there from the core box materials? I haven't the BMM, yet, so someone with would have to enlighten me.
 8)  ^-^

But, I'm asking for a touch more than just Militia here in this book, Mercs here in this book, nobles here in the RPG book, though it's a good starting point.

I've read through the FM:Mercs, and a lot of the others, and there are little blurbs in their about the breakdown of forces, and 'average compositions' if they get a mention. (FM: Lyran Alliance and Free Worlds League were pretty good about this.)  I've even read the setting primer out of the prior Boxed set, and even though a lot is said about units in general, there's a lot missing that I would have loved as a beginner:

- How do you get started as a merc unit? A lot of wonderful accounting systems to get you started, but not a lot of context for generating the story. And, if someone comes up with something, how do you know it's kosher BattleTech?

- What kind of unit allowance do you get as a particular rank of noble? You don't have to be a Merc, or a house regular, to have Mechs that see actions. As a noble, you get the benefit of having a Mech. Or, is it as a Mechwarrior, you get the benefits of holding a title and land, and protecting it from predators? When do you get to muster with other Knights if all you have is one? How big a retinue do you have access to if you're anything higher? (I am taking this particular thought to a new thread.)

- Do you really see a lot of action as a Minuteman?  A lot of what we read is history of the line units, but the House FMs pointed out that militia were generally the first line of defense, stalling until the heavy hitters could arrive in a true invasion. Raids are not invasions, so I doubt that you'd be calling in the Davion Assault Guards in a timely fashion on Timbuktu if there isn't a lance or company there on a Flag-bearing tour.

I don't need hard and fast numbers, but a rough idea would be lovely. I know that 'If it works in your games' is a big rule for these forums, and the game in general. (You might want to lead the rules with that in the box set.)  But, if the general player trend is to run a merc unit before committing to a house, how much interstellar action is there? Or, is each planet truly an island?

I"d finally like to see this introductory aspect to Mechwarrioring and Mech Commandering giving a real stab by the Powers-that-be.

Doesn't have to be an honest FM, though. But, something in a new introductory look at the universe and getting started in the story would be awesome.









As for SPAs costs, maybe one should consider paying for each instance where the cost applies? So, pilot in an awesome with the PPC specialist pays for each weapon it applies to, which is normally 3? What if he starts the game with pre-existing damage and one PPC is out? Same pilot in a BMaster pays only once? Same pilot in a different mech with no PPCs pays nothing for the ability.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #917 on: 26 May 2018, 22:30:06 »
Not every player will run campaigns. I often see games played as one and done. Build a force with X BV/PV and play the game to its resolution. I have never seen anyone play aToW and don't often see anyone playing a story campaign. Thats not to say it doesn't happen.

The issue with point costs and SPAs or even unit quirks etc. isn't really something to discuss in this thread though in the detail that has taken place. Best to give it its own thread me thinks. Lest we annoy the mods :P

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #918 on: 26 May 2018, 22:40:21 »
I guess I came into the game more of an RPGer than I realized. I looked at BattleTech as a nice fusion of GI Joes and Transformers, where the human GI Joe pilot could have Transformer levels of impact on a battle. The whole thing about pilot experience across games just leads to at least a guantlet approach for pilots, and eventually a string of games that make a larger story and battle.

But, yeah, I get what you say. A lot of people have probably glossed that over, especially in the newer rules, which don't pay as much attention to that. In the 2nd and 3rd (and probably 4th) it was one of the first things you read about, experience and how to accrue it and spend it to improve skill values.

Still, where is a lot of the combat, really? Is it the smaller nameless guys that do a lot of the real fighting? Or is it really boring until a Lyran Guards unit decides to conduct a cross-border raid into the Free Worlds League?  I would personally still like a keener insight into the scale of the conflicts, the number of raids, and so on.  Is there a turn-over rate? Is it among the front line units, or elsewhere?

A lot of 4x4 BattleTech games, played to the last side with Mechs standing, are pretty damn decisive, and can end pilot careers, if not lives.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #919 on: 27 May 2018, 01:46:53 »
The issue with point costs and SPAs or even unit quirks etc. isn't really something to discuss in this thread though in the detail that has taken place. Best to give it its own thread me thinks. Lest we annoy the mods :P

Its something we were seeing as part of a new release . . . they take enough liberty moving stuff for BS reasons, do not invite more.

My problem is we have products that are supposed to be intro intro . . . but hey, we introduced SPAs on these nifty cards coincidentally that match the mechs in the box so when a player deals out the cards to divide the forces they look at it, pilot is 2/4 "And my PPCs get a -2!"
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #920 on: 27 May 2018, 10:40:02 »
I do like the Mechwarrior cards giving the pilots little more to them when it's appropriate. As long things don't get too crazy.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #921 on: 28 May 2018, 08:20:17 »
I do like the Mechwarrior cards giving the pilots little more to them when it's appropriate. As long things don't get too crazy.

This is where I'm at, too.  We've spent 30 years being told how Mechwarriors are the elite of the elite and the Inner Sphere equivalent of nobles who inherit their equipment as it os passed down the family tree and how they attend pretigious training academies and so-on and so-on.  All that has usually translated to, though, is a hastily made up name and a pair of numbers that, on a good day, gives the supposed elite of the elite a slight better-than-average chance of hitting a slow moving target. 

Pilots NEED to be more interesting.  They need skills that make sense in the context of personal, customized equipment and years of training.  Their piloting and gunnery skills need to reflect the fact that they are actually competent professionals and not a bunch of random conscripts who were assigned to a mech by random chance.  Honestly, I feel like MOST mech pilots should have an effective gunnery skill closer to 0.

From a real-world perspective, abilities like this mean that players will be able to hit things more frequently, which means they will be able to kill things more quickly, which translates to games that don't drag on for hours.  I think this is a very good compromise between the "keep the game the same" crowd and the "this game needs to go faster" crowd.

Besides, as I am often reminded when I ask whether or not the game really needs twelve different flavors of medium lasers, the SPAs are optional, so just use what works for your table. 
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #922 on: 28 May 2018, 08:39:40 »
From a real-world perspective, abilities like this mean that players will be able to hit things more frequently, which means they will be able to kill things more quickly, which translates to games that don't drag on for hours.  I think this is a very good compromise between the "keep the game the same" crowd and the "this game needs to go faster" crowd.
Especially in the pre-Clan eras, before the advent of XL engines and DHS turned 'Mechs into much nastier gun platforms than before.  Armor didn't change, but firepower sure did, and that made it much easier to killinate in the later games.  Earlier, not so much...so this will definitely help!
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #923 on: 28 May 2018, 08:52:57 »
XL engines was a very easy costly way of making a lot of firepower into a mech, some mechs you get can get 10 or more tons of firepower.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #924 on: 28 May 2018, 12:06:35 »
Besides, as I am often reminded when I ask whether or not the game really needs twelve different flavors of medium lasers, the SPAs are optional, so just use what works for your table.

Except that this intro product with all the advanced equipment that can also speed up a game and make it easier to hit were left out.  It's KISS
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #925 on: 28 May 2018, 12:13:00 »
XL engines was a very easy costly way of making a lot of firepower into a mech, some mechs you get can get 10 or more tons of firepower.
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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #926 on: 28 May 2018, 19:20:42 »
I like the SPAs on the cards; basically, you can tell new comers: hey, just use the cards for the gunnery and piloting.  Oh, those special pilot abilities?  Try the red pill; see how far the rabbit hole goes.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #927 on: 01 June 2018, 09:28:32 »
We can has more previews?? Paaaleeeeease ;)

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #928 on: 01 June 2018, 11:59:59 »
I would rather have some new products, TtS, TP, Spotlight on, XTRO.... anything. It has been a long time since we got something new. Something completely new. Not just a compilation of some units I already know about from older TROs which were only copy-ed over like TRO: SW was.

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Re: New and Upcoming Releases Volume XII: Baker's Dozen
« Reply #929 on: 12 June 2018, 11:11:52 »
Just checking in again: any news on the scheduling of a What’s up with Catalyst event at GenCon? I’m still trying to leave Thursday night open as that SEEMS to be the most likely time slot, but I’d prefer to know for sure! Thanks.

 

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