Author Topic: The Curse of the Calderon's  (Read 12112 times)

wookiebear

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The Curse of the Calderon's
« on: 18 February 2011, 10:26:47 »
Was reading through sources for fun and noticed a trend.  The Calderon family has had a rough couple of generations recently

First Thomas basicly looses it and is deposed as Protector
Edward, the eldest son, dies in a Dropship accident in 3034 (incidentally, this is a major factor in his fathers instability in canon)
 Janice Calderon contracts Brisbane virus in 3038, making her unable to rule though she was considered a worthy successor, sane and responsible
In 3042 IIRC, Ian left the Concordat.  He was eaten by a Thraxan Devourer while with the Green Mountain Boys in Canopian space in 3048 or so.
Felix (possibly the smartest one) bailed and was "lost" in the deep Periphery in 3046
Jeffrey, the youngest, became Protector and was doing a wonderful job, making decisions that aided the Concordat economically and militarily.  He was killed in a crossfire during  a rescue mission by Cappellan and Canopian forces when he and the Majestrix were held hostage on Detroit

That whole generation seemed to be cursed and the only "known" heirs are not much better off

Erik Martens-Calderon is now head of the splinter Calderon Protectorate, responsible by birth for the splitting of the TC

Another possible heir is Thomas Everett of the Green Mountain Boys, but nobody is talking

Richard Calderon, son of Felix, was found by Lorelei Centrella in the Deep Periphery, but they both died on their way back to the TC, killed by pirates

Felix may still be alive and there may be more heirs, but if I were them I am not sure I wouldn't change my name and live on in obscurity

Makes you wonder if their is more going on here don't it

(I do so love conspiracy theories, especially in the BattleTech universe 'cause sometimes they turn out to be true :D )

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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #1 on: 18 February 2011, 11:53:49 »
It's clearly all the Davions' fault.
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #2 on: 18 February 2011, 12:47:15 »
In 3042 IIRC, Ian left the Concordat.  He was eaten by a Thraxan Devourer while with the Green Mountain Boys in Canopian space in 3048 or so.


Nom, nom, nom.
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wookiebear

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #3 on: 18 February 2011, 13:22:56 »
Nom, nom, nom.

ya know when I first read that it caught me off guard....... and still does when I think about it   ;D

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #4 on: 18 February 2011, 14:15:56 »
It's clearly all the Davions' fault.

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Kit deSummersville

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #5 on: 18 February 2011, 14:32:52 »
Protector: Tell me what you have found.
Director of Intelligence: Not much, the devourer had the remains of Ian and a quarter ton of salmon in it's stomach. We....
Protector: Salmon?
DoI: Yes sir, salmon. We....
Protector: Didn't your report last month mention that the Federated Suns had decreased their salmon trading volume by 3%?
DoI: Yes, you do have an excellent memory. As I was say...
Protector: That's it! Those tricksey Davions bribed the beast to assassinate our dear Ian.
DoI: Who would have your job right now if he were alive. Any way, salmon were introduced to Thraxa in...
Protector: Are you saying they didn't bribe the devourer?
DoI: Of course not, it's a dumb beast that fed on native fish. Why...
Protector: Davion mole! <Pulls gun, shoots DoI> Reporter, let it be shown that I was forced to dispatch this Davion agent trying to cover up the truth. Put out a news report about their treachery.
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #6 on: 18 February 2011, 16:38:26 »
 ;D  [applause]

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #7 on: 18 February 2011, 19:59:19 »
Protector: Tell me what you have found.
Director of Intelligence: Not much, the devourer had the remains of Ian and a quarter ton of salmon in it's stomach. We....
Protector: Salmon?
DoI: Yes sir, salmon. We....
Protector: Didn't your report last month mention that the Federated Suns had decreased their salmon trading volume by 3%?
DoI: Yes, you do have an excellent memory. As I was say...
Protector: That's it! Those tricksey Davions bribed the beast to assassinate our dear Ian.
DoI: Who would have your job right now if he were alive. Any way, salmon were introduced to Thraxa in...
Protector: Are you saying they didn't bribe the devourer?
DoI: Of course not, it's a dumb beast that fed on native fish. Why...
Protector: Davion mole! <Pulls gun, shoots DoI> Reporter, let it be shown that I was forced to dispatch this Davion agent trying to cover up the truth. Put out a news report about their treachery.

 ;D [notworthy]
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #8 on: 19 February 2011, 01:33:19 »
Protector: Tell me what you have found.
Director of Intelligence: Not much, the devourer had the remains of Ian and a quarter ton of salmon in it's stomach. We....
Protector: Salmon?
DoI: Yes sir, salmon. We....
Protector: Didn't your report last month mention that the Federated Suns had decreased their salmon trading volume by 3%?
DoI: Yes, you do have an excellent memory. As I was say...
Protector: That's it! Those tricksey Davions bribed the beast to assassinate our dear Ian.
DoI: Who would have your job right now if he were alive. Any way, salmon were introduced to Thraxa in...
Protector: Are you saying they didn't bribe the devourer?
DoI: Of course not, it's a dumb beast that fed on native fish. Why...
Protector: Davion mole! <Pulls gun, shoots DoI> Reporter, let it be shown that I was forced to dispatch this Davion agent trying to cover up the truth. Put out a news report about their treachery.

 [watch]
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #9 on: 19 February 2011, 01:42:46 »
Protector: Tell me what you have found.
Director of Intelligence: Not much, the devourer had the remains of Ian and a quarter ton of salmon in it's stomach. We....
Protector: Salmon?
DoI: Yes sir, salmon. We....
Protector: Didn't your report last month mention that the Federated Suns had decreased their salmon trading volume by 3%?
DoI: Yes, you do have an excellent memory. As I was say...
Protector: That's it! Those tricksey Davions bribed the beast to assassinate our dear Ian.
DoI: Who would have your job right now if he were alive. Any way, salmon were introduced to Thraxa in...
Protector: Are you saying they didn't bribe the devourer?
DoI: Of course not, it's a dumb beast that fed on native fish. Why...
Protector: Davion mole! <Pulls gun, shoots DoI> Reporter, let it be shown that I was forced to dispatch this Davion agent trying to cover up the truth. Put out a news report about their treachery.
[applause]
Sunrise is Coming.

All Hail First Prince Melissa Davion, the Patron Saint of the Regimental Combat Team, who cowed Dainmar Liao, created the Model Army, and rescued Robinson!  May her light ever guide the sons of the Suns, May our daughters ever endeavour to emulate her!

Dirk Bastion

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #10 on: 19 February 2011, 05:19:53 »
The successors of Zarantha are among of the most unlucky of Calderons, indeed.

Stormfury

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #11 on: 19 February 2011, 05:40:17 »
To be honest, the Calderon line has always been marked by a propensity towards paranoia (and/or xenophobia), from Samantha on down.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
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Dirk Bastion

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #12 on: 19 February 2011, 06:14:44 »
Yes, we all know being paranoid is all the Calderons are good for.

Quote
from Samantha on down.
Please provide a source for that statement.

Stormfury

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #13 on: 19 February 2011, 07:13:07 »
She chose the Hyades Cluster for its remoteness and difficulty to navigate. The idea was to stay away from the other, expansionist, emerging proto-nations for as long as possible (H: MPS, p. 14).

By the time you get to the Malagrotta Incident, it's fairly well ingrained.

Not saying that Samantha didn't have reason to want to get away, just that it got ramped up with each succeeding generation.
« Last Edit: 19 February 2011, 07:20:52 by Stormfury »
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

Dirk Bastion

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #14 on: 19 February 2011, 07:39:30 »
She chose the Hyades Cluster for its remoteness and difficulty to navigate. The idea was to stay away from the other, expansionist, emerging proto-nations for as long as possible (H: MPS, p. 14).
(...)
Not saying that Samantha didn't have reason to want to get away, just that it got ramped up with each succeeding generation.
If she has actual reasons instead of unreasonable fear, then that's not really paranoia. ???

Quote
By the time you get to the Malagrotta Incident, it's fairly well ingrained.
Both Capellans and Suns have had a history of border conflicts and outright wars with the Concordat by that point. And then you had things like the Pollux proclamation. What is, in your opinion, the difference here between being prepared and paranoia? Because, really, I'm not seeing it, and it keeps getting brought up again and again.

I'm not contesting Thomas and Grover, btw. I just think that the whole history of the Concordat is being flanderized in their image, much to the amusement of witty posters.

Stormfury

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #15 on: 19 February 2011, 08:29:44 »
Quote
If she has actual reasons instead of unreasonable fear, then that's not really paranoia.

Reason to want to get away from Aix-la-Chapelle, yes. Reason to hare off to a far-away star cluster that claims colony ships and then establish a nation that exibits the same isolationism, paranoia, and xenophobia she developed, maybe not so much.

Quote
Both Capellans and Suns have had a history of border conflicts and outright wars with the Concordat by that point.

Per H: MPS and FM: P the CapCon and Suns started fighting each other in space claimed by the Concordat. Of course, neither even knew the Concordat existed. To try and ensure that remained the case, Taurian forces attacked both sides, with at least the Suns concluding they were fighting some kind of pirate entity they would rather ignore to focus on the CapCon.

The paranioa kicks into overdrive after Santiago, at which point the Taurians begin a major military build-up and begin deliberately antagonising the Federated Suns.

The next five centuries are more of the same- the dread spectre of the Federated Suns looms over the Concordat, which must be ready at a moment's notice to repel them.

Or something.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

FedSunsBorn

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #16 on: 19 February 2011, 11:08:04 »
Reason to want to get away from Aix-la-Chapelle, yes. Reason to hare off to a far-away star cluster that claims colony ships and then establish a nation that exibits the same isolationism, paranoia, and xenophobia she developed, maybe not so much.

Per H: MPS and FM: P the CapCon and Suns started fighting each other in space claimed by the Concordat. Of course, neither even knew the Concordat existed. To try and ensure that remained the case, Taurian forces attacked both sides, with at least the Suns concluding they were fighting some kind of pirate entity they would rather ignore to focus on the CapCon.

The paranioa kicks into overdrive after Santiago, at which point the Taurians begin a major military build-up and begin deliberately antagonising the Federated Suns.

The next five centuries are more of the same- the dread spectre of the Federated Suns looms over the Concordat, which must be ready at a moment's notice to repel them.

Or something.

Hah, the Federated Suns thought the Taurians were just pirates at first. Hilarious.  ;D

Davion Admiral: "Their not Capellan?"
Davion Officer: "No sir, we think they are pirates of some kind..."
Taurian Admiral: "We are NOT pirates! YOU are trespassing in Taurian space! Leave now or be destroy..."
Davion Admiral: "Cut that crap off. Ive got enough problems dealing with the Capellan menace. Onward to Sian!"
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Stormfury

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #17 on: 19 February 2011, 11:16:21 »
Well, the Taurians were taking pains to make sure nobody knew who or where they were.

If they'd just stayed hidden rather than going on the offensive, they could have had a lot more time to themselves.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
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Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

Solarmech

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #18 on: 19 February 2011, 12:18:21 »
The TC does it's best to hide from everyone. Then when someone wanders into thier territory because they don't know anyone has claimed it, they get mad. Does that make sense to anyone? sm

Dirk Bastion

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #19 on: 20 February 2011, 04:33:22 »
Yes, you can really feel the double-standards in here.

Reason to want to get away from Aix-la-Chapelle, yes. Reason to hare off to a far-away star cluster that claims colony ships and then establish a nation that exibits the same isolationism, paranoia, and xenophobia she developed, maybe not so much.
Okay, so your response to Samantha's "hey guys, it's not working out here with the Alliance collapsing and Marik-sponsored pirates attacking everything left, right, and center, let's just go somewhere else" is "wow, she's paranoid and xenophobic".

Yeah, no. Sorry, doesn't fly. Or is everyone else who went AWOL from the Alliance around that time also paranoid and xenophobic? Like the guys on Freedom, who actually instigated an uprising? Or Hector Rove? Or (as per H:MPS page 15) the people who fled Shiro Kurita, the FWL, and the Lyran Commonwealth later on? You're acting like the nutball Samantha Calderon was acting in isolation, when she was just one of the precursors to the big outward refugee colonisation drives of the late Terran Alliance/the early Age of War.

Quote
Per H: MPS and FM: P the CapCon and Suns started fighting each other in space claimed by the Concordat. Of course, neither even knew the Concordat existed. To try and ensure that remained the case, Taurian forces attacked both sides, with at least the Suns concluding they were fighting some kind of pirate entity they would rather ignore to focus on the CapCon.
That's a pretty gross distortion of what actually happened. You seem to enjoy blaming the Concordat for merely existing.
According to FM:P, the Davions did think they were fighting pirates, but I'm not seeing how you can reasonably blame that on the Concordat, as they were the ones under attack. As for the Capellans, they were later on happily invading Taurian planet after Taurian planet, so I'm not seeing how fighting back against an invader is "paranoid".

Quote
The paranioa kicks into overdrive after Santiago, at which point the Taurians begin a major military build-up and begin deliberately antagonising the Federated Suns.
So, when the newly formed Star League started saber rattling about bringing the Periphery states into the realm, a military build-up to resist this is paranoia? In your opinion, were Canopus, the Outworlds Alliance, and the rioters in the Rim World Republic also paranoid, or just evil? Do you think the OA is responsible for the Santiago Massacre, too?

Quote
The next five centuries are more of the same- the dread spectre of the Federated Suns looms over the Concordat, which must be ready at a moment's notice to repel them.

Or something.
Yes, or something, like giving support to the Far Lookers in the late 30th/early 31st century. Case in point of the ridiculous flanderization the Concordat has undergone. Every Calderon is a Thomas, and every thread about the Concordat is worth derailing into "lol paranoid cow country".


The TC does it's best to hide from everyone. Then when someone wanders into thier territory because they don't know anyone has claimed it, they get mad. Does that make sense to anyone? sm
The Concordat was attacked by actual warships and troops. That's not just wandering.

Stormfury

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #20 on: 20 February 2011, 05:33:23 »
Quote
Okay, so your response to Samantha's "hey guys, it's not working out here with the Alliance collapsing and Marik-sponsored pirates attacking everything left, right, and center, let's just go somewhere else" is "wow, she's paranoid and xenophobic".

I think it's pretty clear that she was traumatised by the loss of her family. That is understandable, but the rest of the nation adopting her outlook, particularly successive generations of her line, is paranoid and xenophobic.

Quote
According to FM:P, the Davions did think they were fighting pirates, but I'm not seeing how you can reasonably blame that on the Concordat, as they were the ones under attack. As for the Capellans, they were later on happily invading Taurian planet after Taurian planet, so I'm not seeing how fighting back against an invader is "paranoid".

Federated Suns and Capellan Confederation forces were fighting each other in Taurian space. The Taurian response was to attack both. Had they not done so, neither side would have even known they were there... which is what the whole idea was supposed to be.

Quote
Yes, or something, like giving support to the Far Lookers in the late 30th/early 31st century. Case in point of the ridiculous flanderization the Concordat has undergone. Every Calderon is a Thomas, and every thread about the Concordat is worth derailing into "lol paranoid cow country".

There has been no flanderisation. The Concordat has always been that way.

The rest of your post is either you trying to put words in my mouth or create straw men. You wanted sources and have been given them.
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Dirk Bastion

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #21 on: 20 February 2011, 06:24:44 »
I think it's pretty clear that she was traumatised by the loss of her family. That is understandable, but the rest of the nation adopting her outlook, particularly successive generations of her line, is paranoid and xenophobic.
I will ask again: what is the difference between Samantha Calderon picking her stuff and going off into the unknown and everybody else doing the same (or rising up against the Alliance), other than your assessment of her mental instability? I'm simply not seeing it.

Quote
Federated Suns and Capellan Confederation forces were fighting each other in Taurian space. The Taurian response was to attack both. Had they not done so, neither side would have even known they were there... which is what the whole idea was supposed to be.
That's neither in FM:P or H:MPS. How do you come to that conclusion?
In fact, I have not found anything of the first contat between the three powers' military in H:MPS. F:MP states:
Quote from: Field Manual: Periphery, page 47
In 2368, fighting between the Davions and House Liao spilled over into Concordat space, bringing the Federated Suns into direct conflict with the Taurians. Though ill-equipped to take on the full might of a Great House, (...) the Concordat's Defense Forces claimed an astounding victory from its first real military engagement.
It seems pretty clear what happened: Davion and Liao were fighting a full-on conflict in their space, some Davion forces stumble upon a Concordat Defense Fleet, attack it, and the Concordat won.

Quote from: Field Manual: Periphery, page 47
For two years following the battle, the Federated Suns forced the Taurians into a series of costly naval battles, although House Davion thought they fought only an "organized band of pirates".
In other words, the FedSuns continued to attack what they believe to be pirates, not the other way around, as you claim.

Quote from: Field Manual: Periphery, page 47
(...) the knowledge of having been discovered by the Federated Suns continued to spike fear of a coming invasion throughout the Concordat. The next battle, however, found the Taurian Defense Force fighting against House Liao, not the Davions.
I guess this is where your "paranoia" statement comes from: after having been attacked by a FedSun anti-pirate fleet for two years, the Concordat is afraid they're going to invade. I'm not sure what you expect the Taurian reaction to be, frankly. Leaning back and disarming, which - in face of an attack by House Liao means bowing down to the Celestial Throne?

Quote from: Field Manual: Periphery, page 47
As House Liao fought to expand the Capellan realm, they looked upon the planets that made up the Concordat as easy prey, discounting the Taurian Defense Force as they tried to push the local defenders aside. Brutal battles ensued (...) that introduced the Taurians to a new level of savagery in warfare. (...) Cruelty to Taurian prisoners-of-war and massacres of the civilan population were but a few of the harsh punishments (...) the Taurians pitched back with greater resistance and forced a Pyrrhic victory onto the Confederation
So, to sum it up: Liao forces invade, routinely commit atrocities, until they finally win the war with devastating losses.
This is directly counter to your claim that the Taurians attacked both sides. 

Quote from: Field Manual: Periphery, page 47
A century and a half of peaceful coexistence followed these early military encounters
So yes (I guess Arianna's War was too inconsequential for FM:P, though).

Quote
There has been no flanderisation. The Concordat has always been that way.
And that's simply not true, unless you twist the actual sources really hard.

Quote
The rest of your post is either you trying to put words in my mouth or create straw men. You wanted sources and have been given them.
I have disagreed and provided sources as well, which you tend to dismiss out of hand in favor of your unexplainable conclusions.
« Last Edit: 20 February 2011, 06:27:49 by Dirk Bastion »

Stormfury

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #22 on: 20 February 2011, 07:41:14 »
If I am right, the Concordat has been behaving consistently since its inception; no flanderisation.

If you are right, the Concordat has only recently changed, and there is no retconning or flanderisation then either.

P. 46, FM: P- "The Taurian Defence Force, activated in 2360, was designed to answer the menace posed by the nearby House Davion. Though they remained unnoticed by the Federated Suns, the Calderon family knew they could escape notice only so long."

With regards to the Capellan invasion, in the words of Samantha herself on p. 47: "Morals are one thing. Survival is everything."
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
Tali'Zora vas Normandy: *Facepalm*

vaderi

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #23 on: 20 February 2011, 11:00:38 »
From what I can see, FM:P is pretty damn unclear. I can easily read it either way, Davions blundering into Concordat forces and attacking or Davions intruding into Concordat space and the Concordat military responding.

Samantha surely ran as far as others but settling in a system with a very defensive asteroid belt is a bit hyper vigilant (expecting attacks when nobody else knows where you are). Especially when just getting there costs you 8 of your colony ships. But Star League and afterwards not much in the way of paranoia by the rulers until Thomas. But I think that the Taurian people are far more paranoid than their rulers have been.
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Dirk Bastion

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #24 on: 20 February 2011, 13:59:00 »
If I am right, the Concordat has been behaving consistently since its inception; no flanderisation.
That is correct.

Quote
If you are right, the Concordat has only recently changed, and there is no retconning or flanderisation then either.
No, my point was that they are flanderized on this board, not in the sourcebooks. The sourcebooks are in my eyes still pointing out that the Concordat completely went to the crappers with Shraplen's clique and even Thomas eventually had most of the populace against him.
This board, however, has adopted the eternally slobbering and paranoid Calderon as a mascot to the point where even the second post of this thread (which was about Thomas' children's lack of longevity) amounts to "lol, Davionsdidit".

Also, can I take you not actually adressing my quotes as conceding that I am correct after all?

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P. 46, FM: P- "The Taurian Defence Force, activated in 2360, was designed to answer the menace posed by the nearby House Davion. Though they remained unnoticed by the Federated Suns, the Calderon family knew they could escape notice only so long."
Ah, yes, here we are going somewhere. This quote is - taken in isolation - an indication of not only paranoia, but also precognition, considering the first contact with the FedSun military came years later.

However, let's take a step back and look at Periphery 1st edition, which in this case has not been overwritten by anything (AFAIK), where the whole reason for the formation of the TDF is elaborated on.

Quote from: Periphery 1st edition, page 17
In July 2357, Reynard Davion (...) announced his intention to scrap the Acala Pact, a mutual nonagression treaty, that he had negotiated with the neighboring Tikonov Union and Sarna Supremacy in 2355. That same year,  a Davion strike force overran the Sarna garrison on the border world of Bell, (...) capturing over 15,000 civilans. (...) The Sarna garrison was transported as cheap labor to the Davion world of Tentativa, which was located near Richard Calderon's Concordat. In 2360, a Taurian explorer, Tracy Ashton Pendleton, accidentally discovered the missing Bellites (...) Acting on her own initative, Pendleton organized a revolt of the captive workers (...) This incident sent shockwaves throughout the Concordat.(...) With the aid of the Bell survivers (... Richard) began to construct the Concordat's first warships and to recruit the Taurians' first standing army.
So, to sum it up: the TDF was founded after one Taurian explorer busted Reynard Davion's forced labor camp, which was set up after he tossed out a non-agression treaty with his immediate neighbours and attacked the Sarna Supremacy, forcing several thousand civilans into slavery. Without provocation.
I'm not sure how you think this is supposed to show paranoia, especially since Reynard Davion's forces did attack the Concordat later, which actually proved Richard Calderon right.

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With regards to the Capellan invasion, in the words of Samantha herself on p. 47: "Morals are one thing. Survival is everything."
That's supposed to show what exactly? That the Liaos have a right to invade what they consider weak targets? Wouldn't it make sense to prepare against an attack?

Samantha surely ran as far as others but settling in a system with a very defensive asteroid belt is a bit hyper vigilant (expecting attacks when nobody else knows where you are). Especially when just getting there costs you 8 of your colony ships.
Where's the 8 from? Periphery 1st edition says 2, and FM:P doesn't say anything.

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But I think that the Taurian people are far more paranoid than their rulers have been.
Considering that Thomas had almost the entire Concordat against him at the end, to the point where there were at least two coup attempts, and Shraplen was in the mid to late term of his reign heavily opposed, I disagree.
It was only after Shraplen took power that the mood slowly began to shift (with the Urukhai attack and - I assume - WoB meddling) and the Taurians went rabid only after they thought the Davions lobbed asteroids on their capital - which they in fact did have evidence for, except that the WoB expertly faked it.

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #25 on: 20 February 2011, 18:06:43 »
Quote
No, my point was that they are flanderized on this board, not in the sourcebooks.

Then that is what you ought to have said. In any case, that is an accurate depiction of the recent Calderon scions and/or leadership, so I still do not see what the problem is.

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Also, can I take you not actually adressing my quotes as conceding that I am correct after all?

That depends. Are you David Strassman?

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This quote is - taken in isolation - an indication of not only paranoia, but also precognition, considering the first contact with the FedSun military came years later.

It came eight years later and at the instigation of the Concordat, which attacked Suns and Capellan forces. Neither of which had any idea the Concordat even existed at that point, much less were interested in opening a conflict with them.

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That's supposed to show what exactly? That the Liaos have a right to invade what they consider weak targets? Wouldn't it make sense to prepare against an attack?

That the Concordat has always taken a flexible approach to battlefield ethics. When they do it, it is fine... when others do it, it is not. The books detail a number of such Taurian activities, and Taurian fans here almost invariably point to them not signing the Ares Conventions and gloating about how they can and should nuke any opponent into dust.

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... and the Taurians went rabid only after they thought the Davions lobbed asteroids on their capital - which they in fact did have evidence for, except that the WoB expertly faked it.

Or, you know, had been for quite some time. At the very least since the Fourth Succession War, culminating in them again attacking the Federated Suns without provocation to try and reclaim worlds that had belonged to the Suns for centuries and which were entirely uninterested in becoming Concordat holdings. And doing so with WMDs and another round of civilian genocides.

Frankly, there would be much less "flanderisation" going on if the Concordat and its fans were not behaving in a predictable fashion.
« Last Edit: 20 February 2011, 18:11:50 by Stormfury »
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #26 on: 20 February 2011, 18:09:52 »
Flanderization? We're trying to change the Taurians into left handed bible-thumpers?
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #27 on: 20 February 2011, 18:17:05 »
Quote
Quote
    Samantha surely ran as far as others but settling in a system with a very defensive asteroid belt is a bit hyper vigilant (expecting attacks when nobody else knows where you are). Especially when just getting there costs you 8 of your colony ships.

Where's the 8 from? Periphery 1st edition says 2, and FM:P doesn't say anything.

An accident  :-\, H:MPS states that the nebula & asteroid field claimed several of the 25 ships and on the next line it states that there were 8 star systems behind the asteroid fields. I mixed that up but my point stands.

Quote
Considering that Thomas had almost the entire Concordat against him at the end, to the point where there were at least two coup attempts, and Shraplen was in the mid to late term of his reign heavily opposed, I disagree.
It was only after Shraplen took power that the mood slowly began to shift (with the Urukhai attack and - I assume - WoB meddling) and the Taurians went rabid only after they thought the Davions lobbed asteroids on their capital - which they in fact did have evidence for, except that the WoB expertly faked it.

Consider this, H:MPS says that Shraplen was got elected because he was suspicious of foreign elements and the Urukhai attack didn't even look like it was Davion instigated. Frankly I figure they are paranoid (the Taurians) but you don't have too.
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #28 on: 20 February 2011, 23:06:39 »

 [copper]

All right.  Things are getting a little heated throughout this thread.  Everybody settle things down and consider your posts a little more carefully.

/  [copper]
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #29 on: 21 February 2011, 02:53:27 »
Then that is what you ought to have said. In any case, that is an accurate depiction of the recent Calderon scions and/or leadership, so I still do not see what the problem is.
I did say that, and it is accurate of Thomas and Shraplen, not retroactively the entire Concordat's history, like you have repeatedly claimed.

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That depends. Are you David Strassman?
Concession accepted.

Quote
It came eight years later and at the instigation of the Concordat, which attacked Suns and Capellan forces. Neither of which had any idea the Concordat even existed at that point, much less were interested in opening a conflict with them.
As I have quoted above (with page numers), you are incorrect. Please stop trying to push your own personal fanon as canon.
 
Quote
That the Concordat has always taken a flexible approach to battlefield ethics. When they do it, it is fine... when others do it, it is not. The books detail a number of such Taurian activities, and Taurian fans here almost invariably point to them not signing the Ares Conventions and gloating about how they can and should nuke any opponent into dust.

Or, you know, had been for quite some time. At the very least since the Fourth Succession War, culminating in them again attacking the Federated Suns without provocation to try and reclaim worlds that had belonged to the Suns for centuries and which were entirely uninterested in becoming Concordat holdings. And doing so with WMDs and another round of civilian genocides.
Stop trying to move the goalpost please. We weren't discussing the Shraplen clique, we were debating your claims as to the Concordat prior to Thomas. As to the nebulous nuke-happy "Taurian fans" - well, if there's any here, they've been quite drowned out by the endless harassing.

Quote
Frankly, there would be much less "flanderisation" going on if the Concordat and its fans were not behaving in a predictable fashion.
There wasn't a single Concordat fan in here save maybe the op when the whole "lol paranoid cow country" routine started up again.
« Last Edit: 21 February 2011, 02:56:05 by Dirk Bastion »

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #30 on: 21 February 2011, 03:39:49 »
Quote
I did say that, and it is accurate of Thomas and Shraplen, not retroactively the entire Concordat's history, like you have repeatedly claimed.

Paranoia and xenophobia, of varying levels, has always been a part of the Taurian national character.

Quote
Concession accepted.

David Strassman is a ventriloquist. Again, you are putting words into my mouth.

Quote
As I have quoted above (with page numers), you are incorrect. Please stop trying to push your own personal fanon as canon.

FM: P notes that the TDF was established prior to the Suns even being aware of their existence. It also states that the Federated Suns and Capellan Confederation began fighting each other in space claimed by the Taurian Concordat (which, again, neither knew existed) and that Taurian forces engaged them, not that the Suns and Capellans began to attack the Taurians.
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #31 on: 21 February 2011, 04:09:14 »
Quote
David Strassman is a ventriloquist. Again, you are putting words into my mouth.
Well, if you don't actually address my points, quotes, and sources, instead of bringing up your interpretations again and again, I might as well talk to a ventriloquist's dummy.

Quote
FM: P notes that the TDF was established prior to the Suns even being aware of their existence.
I have given you quotes and page numbers explaining why that happened, which you did not actually address.

Quote
It also states that the Federated Suns and Capellan Confederation began fighting each other in space claimed by the Taurian Concordat (which, again, neither knew existed) and that Taurian forces engaged them, not that the Suns and Capellans began to attack the Taurians.
I've given you quotes and page numbers of FM:P to the contrary, which you have neither addressed nor disputed.
Apparently, not even the source text itself is enough to dissuade you from ceaselessly pushing your fanon. Therefor, further debate from my side is apparently pointless - good day to you.

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #32 on: 21 February 2011, 04:32:20 »
Quote
Well, if you don't actually address my points, quotes, and sources, instead of bringing up your interpretations again and again, I might as well talk to a ventriloquist's dummy.

It is not a matter of interpretation; the quotes I provided were from the very same source, sometimes even from the same page.

FM: P, p. 46-47: "The Taurian Defence Force, activated in 2680, was designed to answer the menace posed by nearby House Davion. Though they remained unnoticed by the Federated Suns, the Calderon family knew they could escape notice only so long... In 2368, fighting between the Davions and House Liao spilled over into Concordat space, bringing the Federated Suns into direct conflict with the Taurians... the knowledge of having been discovered by the Federated Suns continued to spike fear of a coming invasion throughout the Concordat... This tendancy to assign the Federated Suns the most malicious intentions is an example of the "Davion bogeyman complex" I've [Brenda Calderon] warned you about..."

As I said, the Concordat began as somewhat paranoid and xenophobic, perhaps even with good reason to be so. Over time, however, that became detrimental to their continued survival- rather than staying out of the way, they exposed their existence to the same forces they were worried about, neither of which knew or cared about them at the time. Had they not done so, they would have been left well alone- the Capellans and Suns were focused on each other.

After that period, the Concordat spirals further and further in that regard until the Malagrotta Incident, where they were so certain the Suns intended to invade that they rather counter-productively caused them to invade.
Mordin Solus: We need a plan to stop them.
John Shepard: We fight or we die. That's the plan.
Ashley Williams: Wow. That's the plan? Is it just me, or did Shepard have better plans before he died?
Urdnot Wrex: Silence! This is the best plan anyone, anywhere has ever had!
Garrus Vakarian: Yes! I AM SO THERE I AM THERE ALREADY!
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #33 on: 21 February 2011, 05:27:51 »
*lurks, waiting for the threadlock*
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #34 on: 21 February 2011, 06:53:00 »
Should be any time now  :)

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #35 on: 21 February 2011, 07:33:39 »
*Grins evilly* No worries, I have purloined the keys
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #36 on: 21 February 2011, 14:17:04 »
 :'( twas a good thread  ;)
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #37 on: 21 February 2011, 14:30:12 »
But a cursed thread.
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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #38 on: 21 February 2011, 14:50:11 »
Those are the best

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Re: The Curse of the Calderon's
« Reply #39 on: 25 February 2011, 20:30:14 »
The Calderon curse strikes again. }:)
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