Author Topic: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?  (Read 11609 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #60 on: 03 June 2020, 07:43:27 »
His defence of the Phillipines and his lack of preparation for war, his bungled defence of the region say otherwise. He was a man who promoted sycophantic yes men into positions of power and ran the islands almost as his own personal fife. Getting the Medal of Honour is of course nothing to be sneered at and you can't discount his personal bravery and courage, but there's also the clamp down on the Pension Protests post WW1 which he commanded, and how poorly he managed the defence of Korea for the most part although Inchon was a great success, he then also totally ignored warning signs of PRC was looking at getting involved. And he wanted to carpet nuke the Chinese/North Korean border to create a radiation zone so men and supplies couldnt get through as well as ignored his president.

A brave man, for sure, but I'd question his competence as a military commander, especially for the role he was put in. Yes he was one of the few 5 Star Generals, but how much of that was because of how good he was, vs we need a military hero and he's very very well connected with all the right people in Washington?

It can be argued in many ways.  Humility is not necessarily a virtue in a commander, but neither is arrogance.

one of the problems we face looking at history, is that an awful lot of it winds up being recorded by either sycophants or enemies, this makes it damned hard to sort out the facts.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #61 on: 03 June 2020, 08:44:05 »
MacArthur was the reason the Philippines held out as long as they did. They were woefully under equipped and largely composed of green reservists.  MacArthur had requested for 84,000 M1 Garands but was denied by the War Department, his units had about 20% of standard artillery, and so on.  In July ‘41 when he took un-retired and took command of American troops, he had about 22,000 American troops.  By November, he had 31,000.  The Philippine reservists were notionally 10 Divisions (120,000 men), but they *started* Being stood up in September, and ended up well behind schedule due to lack of facilities and equipment and the fact that American trainers were having to work around 70(!) different ethnic dialects while trying to rapidly train up the Philippine troops.  This force had to stand up against 130,000 battle-hardened Japanese front liners, most of whom had seen action in China.  And then as soon as the attack commenced, Washington ordered American naval forces in the Philippines to pull out.  It was a nightmare scenario, and MacArthur is the a major reason they held out as long as they did.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #62 on: 03 June 2020, 10:06:08 »
Wasn't his suggestion of nuking the Chinese/Korean border a deliberate attempt to get Truman to sack him?
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #63 on: 03 June 2020, 10:16:55 »
I’ve never heard that before.  That’s not to say it’s wrong, just new to me.  I’ve always understood it as his not really grokking “limited war” as a concept.  He’d fought in WWI and WWII, and didn’t see why Korea was any different.  We bombed Japan into submission, why not do the same here?  What do you mean, we have the weapons but the politicians won’t let me use them?  I mean, this is the guy who’s the source of the quote “In war there is no substitute for victory.”
« Last Edit: 03 June 2020, 10:19:52 by Arkansas Warrior »
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marauder648

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #64 on: 03 June 2020, 10:59:23 »
i'd argue that his inaction in the opening days cost the Philipines its air defences as he refused to let the USAAF launch an attack against Japanese air bases and refused to do anything offensive in that regard. And so when the IJA came a calling the B-17's and fighters that were the main air defence and striking arm were caught on the ground and largely destroyed. He didn't have supplies moved to Corrigedor and ordered them burned whilst there was more than enough time to get them moved to the peninsula. He also badly mishandled Korea, his saving grace was that he ran the occupation of Japan well enough and there wasn't any problems there.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #65 on: 03 June 2020, 11:49:11 »
. . .  his saving grace was that he ran the occupation of Japan well enough and there wasn't any problems there.

Even that is questionable as the first troops sent to Korea were from the Japanese garrison and were in a rather below par on training and lacking state of supply IIRC.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #66 on: 03 June 2020, 12:20:19 »
I’ve never heard that before.  That’s not to say it’s wrong, just new to me.  I’ve always understood it as his not really grokking “limited war” as a concept.  He’d fought in WWI and WWII, and didn’t see why Korea was any different.  We bombed Japan into submission, why not do the same here?  What do you mean, we have the weapons but the politicians won’t let me use them?  I mean, this is the guy who’s the source of the quote “In war there is no substitute for victory.”

That was basically it- he did not like the way Truman was telling him to run the war and allegedly decided to provoke Truman into firing him so he wouldn't have to put up with it anymore.
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #67 on: 03 June 2020, 12:24:56 »
i'd argue that his inaction in the opening days cost the Philipines its air defences as he refused to let the USAAF launch an attack against Japanese air bases and refused to do anything offensive in that regard. And so when the IJA came a calling the B-17's and fighters that were the main air defence and striking arm were caught on the ground and largely destroyed. He didn't have supplies moved to Corrigedor and ordered them burned whilst there was more than enough time to get them moved to the peninsula. He also badly mishandled Korea, his saving grace was that he ran the occupation of Japan well enough and there wasn't any problems there.
I’m on mobile right now, I’ll give a fuller answer later, but this is not accurate.  MacArthur has authorized a strike on Formosa, and the bombers were on the ground arming and fueling for the strike when destroyed.  Likewise some of the fighters caught on the ground had just landed to refuel and get the pilots some lunch when the Japanese arrived.
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marauder648

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #68 on: 03 June 2020, 12:29:12 »
Aye because he didn't order an immediate strike and basically dithered about what to do, the refuelling fighters were IIRC to escort the bomber strike that never happened so they just circled the airfields until they had to land at which point the go order was given and by the the IJA was delivering explosive presents. The airforce contingient when it heard about Pearl pressed for an attack ASAP, but he refused to give it. If I recall, he didn't have a good working relationship with the airforce chap in command (wasn't one of his sypcophants) either. Regardless though it was his dithering and hesitance that meant they gave up a good chance at hitting the IJA air bases on Taiwan and gave up the initiative.

Basically MacArthur was a superb figurehead, the press loved him and he loved the press, but he bought into his own hype and unlike Patton, who the US press also hyped up, he lacked the ability to back  it up.
« Last Edit: 03 June 2020, 12:33:43 by marauder648 »
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #69 on: 03 June 2020, 15:22:50 »
Aye because he didn't order an immediate strike and basically dithered about what to do, the refuelling fighters were IIRC to escort the bomber strike that never happened so they just circled the airfields until they had to land at which point the go order was given and by the the IJA was delivering explosive presents. The airforce contingient when it heard about Pearl pressed for an attack ASAP, but he refused to give it. If I recall, he didn't have a good working relationship with the airforce chap in command (wasn't one of his sypcophants) either. Regardless though it was his dithering and hesitance that meant they gave up a good chance at hitting the IJA air bases on Taiwan and gave up the initiative.

Basically MacArthur was a superb figurehead, the press loved him and he loved the press, but he bought into his own hype and unlike Patton, who the US press also hyped up, he lacked the ability to back  it up.
Again, this is incorrect.  The commander of the Far East Air Force, Major General Lewis Brereton, requested authorization to conduct a bombing attack on Japanese-held Formosa (today's Taiwan) the morning of 08 December, just after receiving word of the attack on Pearl Harbor.  Circa 0500, MacArthur's Chief of Staff, Brigadier General Richard Sutherland, told Brereton to go ahead and begin preparations, and he'd get authorization from MacArthur.  At 0800, Brereton received a call from Chief of the Army Air Forces Henry "Hap" Arnold, who told him not to let his planes be attacked on the ground.  Brereton put three pursuit squadrons and every bomber that would fly in the air by 0830. Some time between 1015 and 1100 (accounts differ), Brereton received authorization from MacArthur via telephone.  Between 1035 and 1045 at Clark Field (the main airbase), the bombers and some fighters were landed so the planes could be refueled, the crews fed and, after authorization arrived, the bombers armed with 100 and 300 pound bombs for the Formosa attack.  At about 1100, the telephone and telegraph lines at Iba Field, a secondary airbase that housed the FEAF's radar, went dead (sabotage is suspected), leaving them with only the relatively unreliable radio to communicate with other bases.  At 1127 and 1129, the radar at Iba Field detected two waves of planes, and surmised that their target was Manila.  Three of our available fighter squadrons were sent to intercept the enemy planes before they reached Manila, and the fourth squadron, based out of Del Carmen field, were sent orders to guard Clark Field, but never received them.   A fifth fighter squadron based at Clark received no orders and only attempted to take off when a 1LT saw incoming bombers and ordered the scramble himself.  As such, the simultaneous Japanese attacks, which were actually targeted at Clark and Iba themselves, caught the airbases by complete surprise.  the rearming bombers at Clark were destroyed, along with the grounded fighters that were trying to scramble.  Iba was actually hit as some fighters that had been on patrol were landing, with 4 of 6 pilots killed in their planes on the runway (radar there at Iba had apparently been trying to warn them off, but the flight leader's radio was malfunctioning).  These attacks destroyed half of the Far East Air Force's planes.  Several more B-17s were lost in succeeding days in ground collisions and crashes on takeoff, and on the 17th (9 days after the initial assault) they were withdrawn to Australia.  The fighters at Del Carmen that hadn't received orders to defend Clark Field were also destroyed on the ground.  In the 2 days following the first strike, more than a quarter of the FEAF's remaining P-40s were destroyed trying to intercept Japanese bombers.  Weeks before the attack, Brereton had been ordered to move his bombers to Mindanao, beyond the range of Japanese attack, and had only moved half of them.


So which part of that was MacArthur's fault?  When his air commander only moved half his bombers out of range of air attack?   When he authorized the requested strike on Formosa?  When the telephone wires at the base with radar were disabled 30 minutes before the attack?  When the radar operators misinterpreted the course and target of the attack, and routed interceptors to the wrong place?  When orders that did go out didn't reach their destination?  When B-17 pilots had wrecks on the ground, or crashed on takeoff?   None of it is.


There's actually even more to it than that, SNAFUs involving Brereton trying to send out reconnaissance missions only to be informed that the recon cameras were at another base, sending a plane to go get them, fighters flying without supplemental oxygen (meaning they couldn't have reached the altitude the Japanese bombers were at anyway) planes having to turn back due to oil leaks, and on and on.  But there core narrative is confusing enough, there's no need to type ten pages worth of all the various issues.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #70 on: 03 June 2020, 16:07:02 »
Ooh, Duelling Legends!! always fun.   In this case, in the one corner, weighing in at X pounds, it's the defender, the Legend of MacArthur!! and in this corner, weighing in at Y pounds, it's the challenger, The Legend of MacArthur!!

regardless of which one wins, nobody wins, because regardless of what you think about Gen. MacArthur, he is still outshone by Chesty Puller.
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Daryk

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #71 on: 03 June 2020, 18:03:27 »
My father-in-law worked for MacArthur in Tokyo right after WWII.  He got out of the Army pretty much as soon as he could when they wouldn't let him bring his wife and infant daughter (my sister-in-law) into theater.

David CGB

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #72 on: 03 June 2020, 18:49:19 »
Ooh, Duelling Legends!! always fun.   In this case, in the one corner, weighing in at X pounds, it's the defender, the Legend of MacArthur!! and in this corner, weighing in at Y pounds, it's the challenger, The Legend of MacArthur!!

regardless of which one wins, nobody wins, because regardless of what you think about Gen. MacArthur, he is still outshone by Chesty Puller.
god yes what a GREAT MARINE OFFICER he was, such leadership!!
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Imperium

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #73 on: 20 June 2020, 03:18:05 »
McClellan built the army, but it took Grant to make it perform.  This, in a sense, raises the question of what makes a military leader 'great'?

Consider that in 1860-61, the Confederacy had the bulk of the officer corps, the bulk of veteran soldiers, and had successfully (Under James Buchanan) looted most of the arsenals in the North.

Also a major cavalry advantage, access to more river-routes, and people better trained on average with firearms from the start. Their defeat was not inevitable but in the long-term it became increasingly probable. One major problem was that the Confederacy wanted to fight a "defensive war" to prove it was not trying to conquer the Union - thus they failed to seize the initiative at the very start.

A great scientist was asked the secret of his brilliance, and his answer was something to the effect that 'Standing on the shoulders of giants you see far.'

I think I'm misquoting Einstein.

The quote is very old. Even August Comte had stated something similar, and that was back in the 1800s. Stephen Gould noted this, because he saw a statue of Comte saying it, and after further research, found the quote went back even further then Comte.

I am surprised nobody yet has mentioned Frederick the Great.
« Last Edit: 20 June 2020, 03:28:43 by Imperium »
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Colt Ward

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #74 on: 24 June 2020, 12:45:54 »
Honestly, the 'greatest' is going to be a difficult hurdle because we usually ascribe that to someone who is able to accomplish the 'impossible' because they realize (or in very few cases create/foster) a paradigm shift in technology (and doctrine is technology) while then executing when they have the resources.  Furthered by support or a open hand from politics.

Alexander, Hannibal, Scipio, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Napoleon

How many of the 'greatest' that were named had such a giant edge in logistics that they had a freedom to execute actions their under-supplied opponent?
Grant, Patton, Halsey & Spruance, and others could drown their opponents

How do you handicap this so its about command rather than the advantages they were handed?
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Elmoth

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #75 on: 24 June 2020, 14:19:51 »
Napoleon during his first years, until he invaded Russia
 
Hannibal

Model or Manstein

Belisarius

And obviously: Genghis Khan.

Cannonshop

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #76 on: 24 June 2020, 14:57:39 »
Honestly, the 'greatest' is going to be a difficult hurdle because we usually ascribe that to someone who is able to accomplish the 'impossible' because they realize (or in very few cases create/foster) a paradigm shift in technology (and doctrine is technology) while then executing when they have the resources.  Furthered by support or a open hand from politics.

Alexander, Hannibal, Scipio, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Napoleon

How many of the 'greatest' that were named had such a giant edge in logistics that they had a freedom to execute actions their under-supplied opponent?
Grant, Patton, Halsey & Spruance, and others could drown their opponents

How do you handicap this so its about command rather than the advantages they were handed?

"Amatuers study Tactics, professionals study Logistics".

those advantages you're talking about ARE the defining differences.  I suppose an argument could be made for Scipio Africanus, or King Pyrrhus (from whom, we get the term "Pyrhhic victory"), but in general, wrangling supply is a command function for a reason-the most stunning battlefield victory can be undone by an inability to follow up on it, which makes the management of resources one of those functions that MUST be taken into account when discussing 'greatness' of military leadership and command.
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jimdigris

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #77 on: 24 June 2020, 16:28:03 »
My personal feeling is that history's most admired generals succeeded because they had better resources than their opponents.  Rommel was able to defeat the British in North Africa because the standard German big gun, the 88mm, could shoot through the tanks available to the British.  Zhukov was able to defeat the Germans because he had millions of extra bodies to throw at the Germans.

Some esteemed generals got their laurels because someone else did the hard part for them.  Montgomery took over the Africa command after his predecessor had destroyed most of Rommel's armor and forced Rommel to use up most of his supplies.  Rommel was already on the ropes when Monty gave the first order to fire.

I am surprised that no one suggested Heinz Guderian.  He was the father of tank warfare for the Germans.  His theories became the standard doctrine for the German army during the second world war, which Rommel applied so effectively.  During the Invasion of France, he commanded the armoured units that attacked through the Ardennes forest and overwhelmed the Allied defenses at the Battle of Sedan.  Of course, his legacy is clouded by his support for the Third Reich.

Marveryn

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #78 on: 24 June 2020, 18:08:26 »
I was reading a book looking at the early Mongol conquests which argues that the general Sube'etei was a more accomplished military strategist than even Temujin himself, though he reportedly lacked the latter's broader ability to translate said conquests into what would evolve into the "Pax Mongolica".

Interestingly, the book also notes that in many cases, Temujin was wary of enemy commanders who switched sides too easily. If a subordinate was so eager to abandon his sovereign the first time, the argument went, what was to stop him doing so once again later on?

It also notes the debt which the Mongols owed to prior "conquest dynasties", such as the Khitan founders of the Liao Dynasty, in terms of developing many of the concepts required to govern a hybrid nomadic/sedentary realm that the Mongol khanates were so successfully able to build up and expand upon.

I got to third this only cause I watch the movie the admiral and I had to look up his history.  Someone like that can make the Japanese samurai quiver in fear deserve to be mention among the world great

ANS Kamas P81

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #79 on: 24 June 2020, 18:35:14 »
I would imagine that the 88s overkilling British tanks is something that may have contributed to the battle, but it's blown far out of proportion IMO.  It completely discounts any other contemporary arm, such as the rest of the artillery and the efforts of Germany's own tanks and all of the infantry.  Maybe they had good antitank guns, no argument there, but one single thing like that is hardly going to be why the Germans did so well.

After all, the Nazis still had the 88s and ended up losing all of North Africa in the end, so those repurposed flak guns weren't the be-all, end-all advantage they are made out to be.

I've read that Guderian's contributions to armored warfare aren't as extensive as some myths have built him up to be, but I don't know how much of that is bias and how much is true.  Certainly he had the rep of being The Man when it came to using tanks at the time.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #80 on: 24 June 2020, 18:39:18 »
I've read that Guderian's contributions to armored warfare aren't as extensive as some myths have built him up to be, but I don't know how much of that is bias and how much is true.  Certainly he had the rep of being The Man when it came to using tanks at the time.
he wasn't unique for his time, the main thing is that he wrote a book outlining what he learned in his career, while most of the other innovators in armor tactics didn't. combine that with his ideas being so drastically demonstrated in 1939, and you get a powerful myth of him being *the* innovator. (in reality most military theorists of the time held similar ideas, but faced stronger political and economic opposition that prevented them from being able to fully implement them. since Germany basically was starting over from scratch they were able to fully integrate the ideas in their military.)
« Last Edit: 24 June 2020, 18:43:42 by glitterboy2098 »

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #81 on: 24 June 2020, 23:26:17 »
I would imagine that the 88s overkilling British tanks is something that may have contributed to the battle, but it's blown far out of proportion IMO.  It completely discounts any other contemporary arm, such as the rest of the artillery and the efforts of Germany's own tanks and all of the infantry.  Maybe they had good antitank guns, no argument there, but one single thing like that is hardly going to be why the Germans did so well.

After all, the Nazis still had the 88s and ended up losing all of North Africa in the end, so those repurposed flak guns weren't the be-all, end-all advantage they are made out to be.

That's because the Wehrmacht simply didn't have the resources needed to hold on to North Africa.  The 88mm gun was a big thing because it could penetrate the front armor on a Matilda II or Churchill, which basically nothing else the Germans had at the time could do- the Panzer III was armed with a weak 37mm gun that wasn't up to the task and the Panzer IV was armed with a low-velocity 75mm howitzer that was completely inappropriate for anti-tank fighting.  It also had a huge range advantage over British anti-tank guns.  It wasn't enough to give the Germans victory (realistically, nothing was), but without it Rommel would quite possibly have been driven out of North Africa by the British before the US got into the war.
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Elmoth

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #82 on: 24 June 2020, 23:56:41 »
The irony is that when they had already lost Africa they poured divisions into Tunis, when Rommel had been asking for ONE extra division and resources for years.

But no, Rommel was not the best general of all time. He was good and not as politically committed to the Nazi party, but he was not the best. He is quite inflated there. I like him, but not in these terms.

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #83 on: 25 June 2020, 07:32:58 »
I am surprised that no one suggested Heinz Guderian. 

His contributions to tank warfare pale in comparison to his dominance in the ketchup market.
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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #84 on: 25 June 2020, 08:57:37 »
That explains much. :)

idea weenie

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #85 on: 25 June 2020, 09:41:10 »
Another Naval officer:
Admiral Zinovy Petrovich of the Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron

He had to deal with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mdi_Fh9_Ag

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #86 on: 25 June 2020, 10:47:01 »
Another Naval officer:
Admiral Zinovy Petrovich of the Russian 2nd Pacific Squadron

He had to deal with this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mdi_Fh9_Ag

Well, he was pretty good at getting his fleet where it needed to go, but kinda blew it in every battle he fought.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #87 on: 25 June 2020, 11:21:35 »
Well, he was pretty good at getting his fleet where it needed to go, but kinda blew it in every battle he fought.

does anyone see a torpedo boat?
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Sabelkatten

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Re: Greatest General/Military Commander of all time?
« Reply #88 on: 26 June 2020, 02:20:04 »
does anyone see a torpedo boat?
;D

Watch this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCrAQFBUFlU to understand just what he had to deal with!

Shiro15

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