HBS Battletech - The Argo

[Joskney]

The Argo is a sweet design for a non-warship.  Who's brainchild is this ship and why don't we have more like them?  ALL dropship transports have a rotating, gravitation ring that transfers for flight, 2 docking points and 'mech bays?   Since my gear is buried in the garage for the last 7 years,  any reverse Aerotech builders out there want to help??

[Deadborder]

The major problem with reverse engineering it is that it is presently rules-illegal. You can't have a dropship with Docking Collars or a grav deck.

[Joskney]

So build it as a core-less warship.  Come now, it is a challenge for you all.  YOU are just trying to get me to dig in my garage!! ARE YOU in league with my wife?!

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Perhaps the larger issue with sticking to the rules-as-is is figuring out how the KF boom works.

Figuring out how to allow daisychaining DropShips to DropShips to JumpShip docking collars without breaking the lore could be difficult.

Then again, maybe the Argo is a Behemoth sized DropShip and it's just physically big enough to house a custom "Leopard Transport Bay" the way smaller DropShips can house Small Craft Bays.  Hold it physically within the hull of the Argo rather than stuck on to the side like in the HBS animation.

[Liam's Ghost]

The grav deck would seem less of a engineering problem and more of a "why bother" problem. Most dropships have little reason to have one.

Dropships can also just dock with each other in space.

If they're all docked together, and the argo is docked to a jumpship for a jump, it's a little trickier. I would imagine it as the Argo functioning something like a "patch cable" between the kf-boom of the jumpship and the other dropships connected to it, allowing for a direct connection between every dropship and the jumpship.  I would assume that the total mass of the dropships connected to this pile of ships would have to be no more than the maximum mass the jumpship could normally dock (each docking collar on a jumpship can only transport up to 100,000 tons).

So what I would imagine is actually a relatively standard dropship, maybe a bit more expensive for our "patch cable" style KF boom. Throw in a grav deck, maybe make it on the order of 30,000 tons (or smaller even. The smaller the Argo, the bigger the ships it can support). The grav deck implies it hangs around in space a lot, so thrust is probably minimal. Basically, we've practically got a space station here. Or a sort of addon intended to increase the value of smaller jumpships and dropships by expanding available collars.

Then again, maybe the Argo is a Behemoth sized DropShip and it's just physically big enough to house a custom "Leopard Transport Bay" the way smaller DropShips can house Small Craft Bays.  Hold it physically within the hull of the Argo rather than stuck on to the side like in the HBS animation.

Unfortunately, that won't work. If your dropship has a KF Boom, it has to use a KF boom equipped docking collar. 

[Sharpnel]

The major problem with reverse engineering it is that it is presently rules-illegal. You can't have a dropship with Docking Collars or a grav deck.

The only way to make this is with apocryphal 'Monitor' rules. I think I posted one of these way back when it was first mentioned.


EDIT: I did and it can be found HERE

[Liam's Ghost]

Kinda in the rabbit hole.

So assuming the patch cable thing is how it works, we're also left to wonder why the Argo never took off, or what other limitations it might have. I would suspect cost is one big one. Another might be that it requires a higher level of technology than the succession wars inner sphere could replicate. A third might be inherent limitations.

I'm leaning towards it not being cost effective, and also there being a hard limit, like if you try to chain more than one argo together, the jumps get excessively melty.

[Liam's Ghost]

The only way to make this is with apocryphal 'Monitor' rules. I think I posted one of these way back when it was first mentioned.

Or a space station, which can carry docking collars, grav decks, and be transported through hyperspace (though obviously not with dropships docked to its collars).

It works fine if you just cross out the word dropship and replace it with space station.

EDIT: Honestly, reading what Sarna has to say, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't just be a space station. The only thing about it that doesn't fit those criteria is the whole "transporting dropships along with you when you jump" element.

[Alexander Knight]

Visually, the Argo takes up two docking collars.  Therefore one could argue that the Leopard being "docked" is a visual fudge, and rules-wise, the Argo and the Leopard each take a separate collar.

[Frabby]

Given that the grav deck has no impact on gameplay, you can handwave it as fluff on a DropShip.
By the way, the novel The Price of Glory features a JumpShip (unnamed, and of unspecified class) that rotates its two DropShips on monofilament cables for artificial gravity so the concept as such isn't entirely new.

You cannot, however, dock a DropShip to anything but a JumpShip core for jumping. No daisy-chaining. The rules and explanations may be vague as to how exactly KF fields, KF booms and docking collars work (and how the K-1 DropShuttle fits into the picture, see this thread); but in any case it's been emphasized by TPTB that Argo-style daisy chaining is impossible.
You can of course always invent new rules, and retcon the setting to say it is possible after all. But in this particular case, it turns the idea on its head that JumpShips are a bottleneck in interstellar transportation. The entire FASAnomics of space travel was built on the idea that you need to connect a DropShip directly into a JumpShip hardpoint.

Finally, core-less WarShips are called Monitors in BattleTech, and TPTB have gone to great lengths to firmly establish that the idea isn't viable. See Monitor (naval concept).

[Liam's Ghost]

but in any case it's been emphasized by TPTB that Argo-style daisy chaining is impossible.

Not that I doubt you, but could you provide a source?

You can of course always invent new rules, and retcon the setting to say it is possible after all. But in this particular case, it turns the idea on its head that JumpShips are a bottleneck in interstellar transportation. The entire FASAnomics of space travel was built on the idea that you need to connect a DropShip directly into a JumpShip hardpoint.

We've already established that making the "daisy chain" doesn't go along with current rules, and nobody is arguing otherwise. I think you're overstating the impact its existence would have, though. There are a lot of ways it could turn out to not be worth the effort, even if it's handy in certain narrow cases. Also, you used the word FASAnomics, which feels like an effort to shut down discussion. The very concept of FASAnomics is the notion that battletech's economy doesn't make sense, so claiming anything as a linchpin that holds it together is just silly.

Even so, if the "daisy chain" (personally, I still prefer the term patch cable) turns out to be real, it still has to be widely available enough, sufficiently easy to manufacture, and sufficiently cost effective to be worth pursuing. We have no indication at the moment that it's any of those things.

EDIT: I feel it worth re-iterating that we know almost nothing at all about what the Argo can actually do. All of our worst predictions and theories are pretty much just speculation base on virtually no details and the fact that it's called a "dropship".

[smdvogrin]

Meh, my headcannon is that the Argo is (rules-wise) carrying 2 Leopards as cargo, not "daisy-chaining docking collars".  Given the extreme disparity in size, I think this makes more sense - just REALLY big shuttles. :)

[Frabby]

Meh, my headcannon is that the Argo is (rules-wise) carrying 2 Leopards as cargo, not "daisy-chaining docking collars".  Given the extreme disparity in size, I think this makes more sense - just REALLY big shuttles. :)

By that rationale, a Behemoth should be able to carry 39 Leopards - a suggestion that pops up from time to time. TPTB have ruled this to be impossible but haven't given a detailed explanation why, except game balance.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Another way to wrangle the KF problem to make the Argo work is to imagine the parasitic craft to not actually be a Leopard but instead a hypothetical dropship-sized "small craft" without its own KF boom... still large enough to deliver 4 BattleMechs to the field but small enough to fit inside the Argo/Argo's KF boom field.

[Lazarus Jaguar]

maybe we need new rules for something like this next TRO?

[idea weenie]

Another way to wrangle the KF problem to make the Argo work is to imagine the parasitic craft to not actually be a Leopard but instead a hypothetical dropship-sized "small craft" without its own KF boom... still large enough to deliver 4 BattleMechs to the field but small enough to fit inside the Argo/Argo's KF boom field.

So the Dropshuttle design?  The largest ones were up to 5000 tons, larger than a Union Dropship.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Yeah, but modern DropShips have been expressly ruled to not allow a JumpShip or WarShip carrying them in dropshuttle bays to jump. Interaction of the drive with their KF boom causes Lovecraftian effects, presumably.

[Empyrus]

I wonder if the Argo was intended to be a JumpShip (perhaps subcompact like those BugEye spyships or whatever they were called) by HBS very early on. This would fit its intended mission as dedicated exploration ship with its own DropShips and gravdecks, and it might explain why it has certain visual similarities to the JumpShip depicted in the game.
(I also wonder if the thing was originally meant to carry three Leopards for a company's worth of 'Mechs, as it is the game has way too much pilot and 'Mech space available as you can only take a lance to a mission, HBS did mention having explored variety of unit sizes.)

Otherwise, i think even the game called the ship a mobile space station. Obviously this does not still allow daisychaining KF-field but it sorta does explain the gravdecks and the Argo not being a real DropShip as it never lands anywhere.

As for the KF-field extension, perhaps the Star League did figure out a method for that, one that was tested on the Argo but then forgotten for whatever reason (or abandoned for side-effects, like Star League Black Boxes were, supposedly).

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Yeah, but modern DropShips have been expressly ruled to not allow a JumpShip or WarShip carrying them in dropshuttle bays to jump. Interaction of the drive with their KF boom causes Lovecraftian effects, presumably.

Have they, though?  Sure KF booms inside KF Booms is a nonstarter.. but DropShips carry 100-200 ton spacecraft that lack KF booms all the time in the form of ASFs and Small Craft.  Sure there's the problem of there generally being no infrastructure to support dropship sized craft that lack KF booms.. but there's no academic reason a custom DropShip can't have a custom parasitic 4000 ton craft so long as it lacks a KF boom?

[YingJanshi]

I wonder if the Argo was intended to be a JumpShip (perhaps subcompact like those BugEye spyships or whatever they were called) by HBS very early on. This would fit its intended mission as dedicated exploration ship with its own DropShips and gravdecks, and it might explain why it has certain visual similarities to the JumpShip depicted in the game.
(I also wonder if the thing was originally meant to carry three Leopards for a company's worth of 'Mechs, as it is the game has way too much pilot and 'Mech space available as you can only take a lance to a mission, HBS did mention having explored variety of unit sizes.)

Otherwise, i think even the game called the ship a mobile space station. Obviously this does not still allow daisychaining KF-field but it sorta does explain the gravdecks and the Argo not being a real DropShip as it never lands anywhere.

As for the KF-field extension, perhaps the Star League did figure out a method for that, one that was tested on the Argo but then forgotten for whatever reason (or abandoned for side-effects, like Star League Black Boxes were, supposedly).

I want to say that when they first introduced the Argo and were explaining it, they described it as a one-of-a-kind Star League experimental exploratory craft that was a hybrid JumpShip/Space Station. No idea why they changed it to be a mere DropShip.

[idea weenie]

Yeah, but modern DropShips have been expressly ruled to not allow a JumpShip or WarShip carrying them in dropshuttle bays to jump. Interaction of the drive with their KF boom causes Lovecraftian effects, presumably.

True, but if the Argo was from before the modern Jumpship/Dropship combo, then it would be jumping on its own, and carry the Dropshuttles.  The Dropshuttles deliver the Mechs to the planet's surface and back.

Basically, the Argo is a Primitive Jumpship, and the Dropshuttles are what are used instead of Dropships.  The advantage is that you don't need to worry about KF setups in the Dropshuttles.  The downside is that they take up a lot of room inside the Argo.

[Empyrus]

I want to say that when they first introduced the Argo and were explaining it, they described it as a one-of-a-kind Star League experimental exploratory craft that was a hybrid JumpShip/Space Station. No idea why they changed it to be a mere DropShip.

Did they now... explains a great deal.

As for it becoming a DropShip... For one thing, they wouldn't have space to depict actual JumpShips really, or they'd be limited for very short time while the player doesn't yet have Argo.
And then there's the KF core. I reckon it really would need a compact or sub-compact core to work were it an intra-system-traveling JumpShip like WarShips. But if it were a sub-compact, it might not mesh well with the universe, being technically/arbitrarily a WarShip. An unique DropShip is likely to meld into the universe better than being the sole active "WarShip" in the entire Inner Sphere and Periphery circa 3025.

True, but if the Argo was from before the modern Jumpship/Dropship combo, then it would be jumping on its own, and carry the Dropshuttles.  The Dropshuttles deliver the Mechs to the planet's surface and back.

Basically, the Argo is a Primitive Jumpship, and the Dropshuttles are what are used instead of Dropships.  The advantage is that you don't need to worry about KF setups in the Dropshuttles.  The downside is that they take up a lot of room inside the Argo.

Only it is explicitly from later Star League time, not a primitive thing.
Plus the Leopard is a Leopard...

[Nav_Alpha]

So build it as a core-less warship.  Come now, it is a challenge for you all.  YOU are just trying to get me to dig in my garage!! ARE YOU in league with my wife?!

Whatever you do... just make sure she doesn’t speak to mine. Then we’ll BOTH be cleaning stuff out!

Quick question about the Argo - I assume it can’t enter atmosphere, right? It’s too big?

On another note - my Argo has a zero-G pool...

[Hellraiser]

After reading the Sarna description I'd call it a space station.

[Liam's Ghost]

Only it is explicitly from later Star League time, not a primitive thing.
Plus the Leopard is a Leopard...

I could see someone pulling the KF boom out of their Leopard if they expected it to only operate in concert with the Argo, and the Argo itself was jump transportable.

I mean, I wouldn't do it, but then I'd also either park my Lostech star league era space base a long way away from where it might get shot at, or sell it to an interested party and pocket the extra cash. Either way, the ability to transport the Argo itself would be used as little as possible.

[Paul]

Quick question about the Argo - I assume it can’t enter atmosphere, right? It’s too big?

That's implied, but not outright declared. For example, the moon where you pick it up is airless, and ships like the Behemoth can land there as well, IIRC.

I view it as a DropShip that violates the Gravdeck rule. Easiest thing to do.
I see utility for it within the exploratory framework.
- Having a mothership that can stay in orbit indefinitely is useful
- Gravdecks allow you to acclimate your crew to differing gravities without relying on thrust to do that job
- Being able to dock and support smaller DropShips is very desirable in situations where you're the only vessel for lightyears (beyond the JumpShip that's a week or more away from you)

Basically, an Argo is as all-in-one as they could make it, bringing the capabilities of a large vessel to the relatively small and mobile package of a DropShip. You send one of those along with an Invader, and that expedition can do everything.

On another note - my Argo has a zero-G pool...

It will every time it's in orbit and the decks don't spin. ;)

[Sharpnel]

Weren't there two of these DropShips built? I vaguely remember that there were.

[YingJanshi]

Weren't there two of these DropShips built? I vaguely remember that there were.

Yep. The other was christened the Myrmidon and was sabotaged before launch, leading it to be scrapped before it ever took flight.

[Giovanni Blasini]

In game, since I don't have it yet, is the Argo ever depicted as actually being attached to a JumpShip of some kind?  If so, that's fine, but treating it as a JumpShip instead of a DropShip or station, even a compact core JumpShip (ie. WarShip) with a fractional thrust transit drive (1/2) or stationkeeping drive would cover pretty much all the design oddities we've seen.

[Paul]

In game, since I don't have it yet, is the Argo ever depicted as actually being attached to a JumpShip of some kind?

Yes. They make it look like it docks to 2 docking collars.

It's capable of 2G thrust after you invest in improving it.

[Vehrec]

Can we get a complete list of all the Argo upgrades?  I know there's a pool, simulator pods, improved medical facilities, improved mechbays, restored structural components, and repaired power systems, but I don't really grasp how they all interact.  Can it really move at 2-g sustained instead of the 1-g cruise speed of everything else?

Treating the Argo as a JumpShip would be beyond silly in any case, since Jumpships don't have huge cargo bays or places for 18 battlemechs, or any of the other features of this ship.  However, the easiest way to resolve the 'jumping with an attached buddy' part is simple-have a internal component on the Argo larger than the dropship attached to it's maximum size.  If you can attach two Leopard class dropships, but the mechanism that enables this is 5000 tons in total size, you've got an...interesting piece of kit, but it takes up enough space to hold 30 mechs instead of 12.

[Empyrus]

Can we get a complete list of all the Argo upgrades?  I know there's a pool, simulator pods, improved medical facilities, improved mechbays, restored structural components, and repaired power systems, but I don't really grasp how they all interact.  Can it really move at 2-g sustained instead of the 1-g cruise speed of everything else?

Treating the Argo as a JumpShip would be beyond silly in any case, since Jumpships don't have huge cargo bays or places for 18 battlemechs, or any of the other features of this ship.  However, the easiest way to resolve the 'jumping with an attached buddy' part is simple-have a internal component on the Argo larger than the dropship attached to it's maximum size.  If you can attach two Leopard class dropships, but the mechanism that enables this is 5000 tons in total size, you've got an...interesting piece of kit, but it takes up enough space to hold 30 mechs instead of 12.

The Argo's design allows for 2g speed, it just that it is badly damaged and needs fixing to achieve that capability, the final engine upgrade requires max level structural reinforcement/repairs/whatever it was called. The game does note that using high speed is not comfortable for crew but time is money (the game does not feature negatives or toggle for speed, likely for simplicity).

As for JumpShip cargo... if the Argo was originally intended to be a KF-ship (in real life and thus in-universe), then it must have used a compact core (in-universe). IE be WarShip-like, and those can have large cargo amounts and 'Mech bays and whatever else.

[Feenix74]

Just got the Argo and completed the first upgrades to power, structure and the 2nd mech bay which will allow me a fair bit more flexibility the mechs that I have ready for deployments so that I can tailor a lance to suit the mission instead of "I have a medium-weight lancehammer and every mission objective is a nail" approach.

I can see why the Wolf's Dragoons were so blessed with their own Olympus Space Station (it certainly gives you a lot of flexibility as a mercenary unit), or even access to a Union or Overlord class dropship as a lesser mercenary unit.

[Bedwyr]

For reference, the Kickstarter update that introduced the Argo: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech/posts/1512716

They never had an iteration of the concept that used an independent jump core and compared it explicitly to the Behemoth from the start. A key phrase from the update:

The prototype multiple docking collar system allowed for smaller DropShips to attach to the Argo for resupply, cargo transfer, and personnel transfer; these docking collars allowed smaller ships to remain attached while the Argo linked with a JumpShip for jump transfer, or to break off and remain in-system while the Argo moved on ahead.

Basically the dev team violated the KF docking collar rules intentionally by handwaving the docking collar system as unique, one-off Star League innovation that never really went anywhere (possibly high cost). They wanted to be able to daisy-chain dropships to achieve a Kickstarter goal of a customizable mercenary home without the company implausibly owning a jumpship (and to maintain the gameplay systems of consistent time to travel and use the a pre-charged jumpship). I can buy that.

[Daryk]

Wait, you have to pay to upgrade the Argo to use the 2G cruise speed standard on the Leopard (that's apparently not accessible)?

[Feenix74]

Yep, you first have to upgrade power, structural supports and to 1.5G thrust.

Just think of it as pimping your ride, you have found a derelict '66 Mustang fastback in a farmshed, and first you fix the electrics, then the rusted structure and then you remove the stock 200 cu in inline 6 and replace it with a 289 cu in V8 then later, when you can afford it a 351 cu in V8  :thumbsup:

[Empyrus]

They wanted to be able to daisy-chain dropships to achieve a Kickstarter goal of a customizable mercenary home without the company implausibly owning a jumpship (and to maintain the gameplay systems of consistent time to travel and use the a pre-charged jumpship). I can buy that.

I don't think it is that implausible. The Gray Death got their own, as do bunch of others.
Unlikely, yes, but then again is a single-lance elite merc team that doesn't do long-term contracts.

[Jayof9s]

Unlikely, yes, but then again is a single-lance elite merc team that doesn't do long-term contracts.

And they're in the Periphery with a bunch of improved weapons that function better than a lot of lostech out there.  ::)

I really love the game but it's better not to think too hard about it in terms of plausibility.

[Bedwyr]

And they're in the Periphery with a bunch of improved weapons that function better than a lot of lostech out there.  ::)

I really love the game but it's better not to think too hard about it in terms of plausibility.

Agreed. I think the Argo is there mostly to serve the game mechanics (and balance) and the in-universe justification shouldn't be looked at super hard.

That said, I think the ship could exist quite well in the universe with a few rules tweaks and more handwavium in the physical explanations surrounding the KF wave. At the very least they did a good job maintaining the general aesthetic. My only real nitpick would be having a three-pronged grav-deck but people on the bridge and engineering standing there not obviously in zero-g. Lots of magnetic boots perhaps.

[Empyrus]

I would assume artists threaten a rebellion if they have to create realistic free-fall scenes. Magboots are perhaps the probably explanation.

[Wrangler]

The Argo screams modular space station, like the Snowden but with drop collars and thrusters.  Snowden is equipment is its KF-Boom, thus it's portable and doesn't not need be dismantled. 

I don't think the HBS people though using it, i think they were making their own thing without really looking at any of rules books like Strategic Operations and Tech Manual.

[Nav_Alpha]

So, my Argo must be a decrepit hulk...
I got one pop up message/storyline episode that saw the pilot complaining about a shuddering when she was behind the stick for more than four hours.
Farah, the engineer told her to suck it up.

Next, the climate control systems died - I was getting pretty low on the cash at that stage - so mynsolution was to issue fans.
We got jumped by pirates and stopped a torpedo into the Mech bay.

So, I imagine this thing is on its last legs!

[Paul]

Initially, yeah. But you get to invest a lot of money and time/labor in making it better. The vibration event, as an example, eventually you'll gain the ability to fix it when the event comes up, based on prior upgrades.
That's true for a lot of random events: quite a few have new beneficial options as you keep improving the ship.

But the primary reason to do it, is to gain greater tech and medtech resources. Though the engine upgrades are rather nice as well.
I think 12 Mech bays is plenty though. I might go to the full 18 one day, but it'll likely be the last upgrade I give it, for completion sake.
Oh, and the physical appearance of the ship improves too, most easily seen when you refurbish one of the Pods.

[Nav_Alpha]

So far I’ve pimped out the living/barracks quarters and improved my repair times, etc by upgrading the Mechbays. Will keep chipping away at it - I like th idea of the Argo being this ancient, rusted dinosaur. Really plays into the 3025 feels

[grimlock1]

maybe we need new rules for something like this next TRO?

At the risk of incurring wrath and flames... Why? 

Granted I'm still early in the game, but what would an Argo-like bring to the table top?  Dropships are typically either attached to a jumpship or warship, which probably has a grav ring, or in transit at about 1G accel. It does offer a "safe" place to keep all your extra bits and bobs while the Leopard goes into harm's way. But jump and warships offer the same thing.

[Bedwyr]

At the risk of incurring wrath and flames... Why? 

Granted I'm still early in the game, but what would an Argo-like bring to the table top?  Dropships are typically either attached to a jumpship or warship, which probably has a grav ring, or in transit at about 1G accel. It does offer a "safe" place to keep all your extra bits and bobs while the Leopard goes into harm's way. But jump and warships offer the same thing.

The seeds of why are right there in your last sentence. It would be cheaper than maintaining a jumpship or warship. *If* you can reproduce whatever magical tech is used to enable daisy chaining the docking rings.

[Tyler Jorgensson]

I just wish their was a weapon upgrade because every time theirs pirates my Pilots end up in the MedBay for week...

[kato]

It would be cheaper than maintaining a jumpship or warship.

By BT rules? Not really, versus jumpships at least. The driver in cost being spare parts, in an Invader / Argo combo you're spending 228,000 C-Bills per month for the Invader and 1.5 million for the Argo (or any other 100kt dropship).

What it realistically brings is insystem-mobile capacity for cargo and small craft or fighters, effectively upgrading a jumpship to warship levels in that regard without having to introduce either a warship or uncommon jumpships into the 3025 era.

Outside the art, taking a Behemoth - or something accurately sized to reflect the layout of Argo - along on the Invader with a dropship on the third hardpoint would have filled the same requirements.

[Vehrec]

The seeds of why are right there in your last sentence. It would be cheaper than maintaining a jumpship or warship. *If* you can reproduce whatever magical tech is used to enable daisy chaining the docking rings.

Moving Dropships via an Argo-class isn't very efficient anyways-Argo costs over 800M C-bills by a rough calculation (which doesn't include fuel, cargo, armor, or any weapons) compared to less than 500M for a new Merchant.  The Mammoth class dropships are more effective cargo-lifters, and the Achilles makes a more effective assault dropper.  The Argo's role is as a forward operating base-it's spacious and well appointed repair bays offer a quicker turn around on salvage and repair operations, it's luxurious Canopian inspired amenities give Mechwarriors and techs alike opportunity to unwind and de-stress after operations, all within just 300 vertical kilometers of an active warzone.  With the kind of support that goes above and beyond what typical dropships can provide (no idea if an Overlord has better upkeep and aid than a Leopard, but even 'stock' the Argo's just...better) the Argo keeps a higher operational tempo possible, allowing wars to be fought faster, getting inside the enemy's OODA loop, and striking at them while their own mechs and vehicles are stuck in repair bays from the last battle.  Medical facilities might not return casualties to operation, but they can turn an outcome around, reducing fatal wounds to merely crippling, and crippling to merely 18 months therapy in a rear-area facility.  And yes, they can turn minor concussions, abrasions, contusions and lacerations around quicker.

I still wouldn't want more than 1/RCT or equivalent formation, this is a hellishly expensive ship.  You're better off transporting your forces in smaller dropships like the Union or even the Overlord for a proper assault, reserve the Leopards for special-ops stuff.  Having a single one serving a reinforced lance is hellishly wasteful, but also probably enables those famous creature comforts.

[Frabby]

Few if any DropShips are designed as habitats. In that sense the Argo fills a niche. Standard unmodified military  DropShips - 'Mech carriers in particular - are portrayed as resembling Higgins Boats more than cruise ships.

[Talen5000]

By that rationale, a Behemoth should be able to carry 39 Leopards - a suggestion that pops up from time to time. TPTB have ruled this to be impossible but haven't given a detailed explanation why, except game balance.

If you want a detailed reason why not, it's because DropShips carry KF equipment which it uses to deform a KF field and stretch it over itself. You can't carry a DropShip that isn't plugged into a Collar for the same reason you can't jump with a JumpShip. Or why you can't carry a DropShip in a DropShuttle bay.


The Argo....as described...is illegal. Now, much of the limits in the construction rules are arbitrary. There is little reason why DropShips cannot carry a GravDeck or Docking Collar for example. Easy enough to adjust. Use the Quirk Illegal.

Daisychaining the jump field, however, has potential ramifications for the universes background such that it is less easy to ignore.

It would require a rule change and/or new equipment. As this wouldn't be an issue with construction, but usage it would require something a bit more radical than a Quirk.

To fluff it....the Argo carries a system that allows for a greater expansion of the KF field than normal, allowing it to Daisy Chain the KF field.

That is, DropShips docked with the Argo can jump with the Argo even if not attached to the JumpShip.

Disadvantages.
1. Each Docking Collar is more complex than that of a standard Collar and so is more massive and more expensive. Say....100 Tons plus 5% of the maximum DropShip mass carried added to the mass of a standard collar
2. The DropShip mounting the Collar must allocate space for the docked ships. An Argo that wants to carry 2 Leopard class DropShips must allocate almost 4000 Tons to "DropShip cargo".
3. A DropShip that wants to move with docked DropShips attached must also be adapted as a Naval Tug.
4. The Internal Structure of the Mothership must then be increased by 5% to account for lost space, and adaptations made to the DropShips KF equipment
5. If additional DropShips are carried, the mothership will require two DropShip collars...one for itself and one to pr9vide the power and feed for the docked ships. Docking time is trebled because of this additional hoookup.
6. Cost of the entire system is increased as a result.

[omega2010]

Quick question about the Argo - I assume it can’t enter atmosphere, right? It’s too big?

Correct, Dr. Murad confirms this when you ask her about the Argo.  There's a later cutscene showing the Argo joining an invasion fleet of Dropships but we never see her entering the lower atmosphere (and your lance is dropped off by Leopard later).

Murad was able to get the Argo to lift off because she crashed on a low gravity moon.

[Nicoli]

For reference, the Kickstarter update that introduced the Argo: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/webeharebrained/battletech/posts/1512716

They never had an iteration of the concept that used an independent jump core and compared it explicitly to the Behemoth from the start. A key phrase from the update:

Basically the dev team violated the KF docking collar rules intentionally by handwaving the docking collar system as unique, one-off Star League innovation that never really went anywhere (possibly high cost). They wanted to be able to daisy-chain dropships to achieve a Kickstarter goal of a customizable mercenary home without the company implausibly owning a jumpship (and to maintain the gameplay systems of consistent time to travel and use the a pre-charged jumpship). I can buy that.

My original thought when seeing it was that it was going to be an exploration Jumpship designed for long duration missions. As such, no weapons and warship capabilities to move in system to be used as a closer hub for the dropships it carried. The reason why none were really produced later is that it is really a niche ship. Too expensive for just being used for a jumpship, but it's lack of armament makes it worthless as a warship. This wouldn't exactly make it a real prize to put a target on your head.

Without digging out my books, is there a process to charge another jumpship off of another one. Because if there was you could have used that as the excuse for tethering to another jumpship.

[Hellraiser]

It occurs to me that it didn't have to be a double collar ship.

Something Mammoth sized would have been just as capable as a mobile base.




The more I look at the picture I think of Space Station still, or, a concept I once have of using a Compact Core on a Standard Jumpship, so its still weak w/ crap SI/Armor, but has a bunch of space available for cargo bays along the spine.

[guardiandashi]

It occurs to me that it didn't have to be a double collar ship.

Something Mammoth sized would have been just as capable as a mobile base.




The more I look at the picture I think of Space Station still, or, a concept I once have of using a Compact Core on a Standard Jumpship, so its still weak w/ crap SI/Armor, but has a bunch of space available for cargo bays along the spine.

sort of like my monolith warship I designed a while back.
you take a monolith jumpship replace the standard core with a compact core, put a 1/2 (or in this case a fractional 2.7 /4 insystem drive, ) moderate to lowish si and armor, and  minimal weapons (you are supposed to be a monolith) looking at HM aero. say a 10-20 SI (the armor is still pathetic) but you if you didn't actually mount or only mounted token standard scale weapons, would still work, and it would have in the neighborhood of 131,126 tons of cargo that could be used for things like supplies, mech bays fighter bays etc.

[Hellraiser]

Yeah, only w/o the Warship factor.

Just use a Compact Core in a Jumpship to free up cargo/weapons space & all other rules are for Jumpships.   Basically a Jumpship w/ XL engine.

[guardiandashi]

Yeah, only w/o the Warship factor.

Just use a Compact Core in a Jumpship to free up cargo/weapons space & all other rules are for Jumpships.   Basically a Jumpship w/ XL engine.

I was giving it a 4 thrust max (2g) transit drive to match the computer game max thrust.  but shrug

[Giovanni Blasini]

That still seems awfully excessive for an explorer or base ship. It has 57 kilotons of cargo too, right?

[Paul]

Cargo capacity is unknown. For game purposes, it's infinite.

[Daryk]

Heh... it seems the Leopard's cargo capacity is also infinite...

[guardiandashi]

Heh... it seems the Leopard's cargo capacity is also infinite...

well yes and no.
for "reasons" what we have is significant liberties taken.
leopard, has 1 bay ~6 active mech limit, essentially the 4 mech bays and 2 fighter bays on a standard leopard all converted to mech bays.
you then have a functionally unlimited supply of "free" armor plating. that takes no significant time to replace.
you also have a functionally unlimited capacity of cargo bay storage of mechs in "mothball" and or incomplete status.
in addition your "spare parts" storage is also functionally unlimited.

I know as I was working through the campaign, there were times where I was all "where can I find some extra cash, when each month costs me ~3/4 million  and I was like why do I need 150 heat sinks... I don't sell off till I am down to ~70 and 70 medium lasers and .....

[Alexander Knight]

Cargo capacity is unknown. For game purposes, it's infinite.

Actually in the game they specifically state 57,000 tons of cargo space.

[Paul]

Gotcha, I totally missed that.

[Wrangler]

Actually in the game they specifically state 57,000 tons of cargo space.

Wow, that's alot room.  You could fit bunch of Union and Overlord Dropships with all that weight carrying ability. (i know you can't put them in there...)

[Giovanni Blasini]

Wow, that's alot room.  You could fit bunch of Union and Overlord Dropships with all that weight carrying ability. (i know you can't put them in there...)

At 4/6, with 57,000 tons of cargo, 30 SI (same as a Behemoth), minimum 24 crew, a 300-meter grav deck, and 1000 tons of fuel, you're left with around 8400 tons left.  Adding in docking collars, you're reduced to 6400 tons.  That's also running maximum armor tonnage.

From that, you need to add escape pods/lifeboats, 'Mech cubicles, any small craft it carries, and additional life support for passengers, plus any weaponry.

[Daryk]

Well, 18 'mech cubicles would be 2,700 of those tons, so I'd work everything else from that...

[Tyler Jorgensson]

To be fair I would have put the 18 mech cubicles from that 57,000 to better represent the fact that you can upgrade the design

[Wrangler]

At 4/6, with 57,000 tons of cargo, 30 SI (same as a Behemoth), minimum 24 crew, a 300-meter grav deck, and 1000 tons of fuel, you're left with around 8400 tons left.  Adding in docking collars, you're reduced to 6400 tons.  That's also running maximum armor tonnage.

From that, you need to add escape pods/lifeboats, 'Mech cubicles, any small craft it carries, and additional life support for passengers, plus any weaponry.

Oh, i was mistaken. I though the 57k was dedicated to actual cargo, not ammenities like meter grav deck,  docking collars and armor.

[kato]

Oh, i was mistaken. I though the 57k was dedicated to actual cargo, not ammenities like meter grav deck,  docking collars and armor.

They are.

At 100,000 tons you're spending 26,000 tons on the engine at 4/6, 6,000 tons on structure at 30 SI and even with 57,000 tons cargo have some 11,000 tons left over for everything else. 750t of that for controls, 1020t for fuel, minimum 180t for quarters, 250t for a grav deck, 108t of armor, whatever the experimental docking collars weight... If you'd want to fluff it out for stats as fixed at that any any mech bays and such eating into cargo my suggestion would be to simply double the SI (and armor) and use up the remainder for 50 or so quarters for passengers and some weapons. And if you want any more of any of that i'd first reduce the armor, because we'd at that point be running 384 points per facing average in protection...

[guardiandashi]

They are.

At 100,000 tons you're spending 26,000 tons on the engine at 4/6, 6,000 tons on structure at 30 SI and even with 57,000 tons cargo have some 11,000 tons left over for everything else. 750t of that for controls, 1020t for fuel, minimum 180t for quarters, 250t for a grav deck, 108t of armor, whatever the experimental docking collars weight... If you'd want to fluff it out for stats as fixed at that any any mech bays and such eating into cargo my suggestion would be to simply double the SI (and armor) and use up the remainder for 50 or so quarters for passengers and some weapons. And if you want any more of any of that i'd first reduce the armor, because we'd at that point be running 384 points per facing average in protection...

only nitpick i have is the argo is listed as having 2g sustained thrust, i believe unless i am mistaken that 3/5 would work

[Giovanni Blasini]

I'd interpret that as 4/6.  Overthrust/emergency thrust doesn't really fit what I see as sustained. Besides, even at 4/6, there certainly appears to be enough room for everything.

[Terrace]

For all the complaints about the "daisy-chaining isn't rules-legal", I respond with "The developers of the Argo created a genuine technological breakthrough the construction rules don't account for yet, but the prototype was lost and the personnel who knew the system got killed during either the 1st SSW"

It's as big a technological leap, in my mind, as the creation of Introtech when everyone was running what would eventually be known as Primitive Tech. Or the development of the Docking Collar, if we're staying in the realm of Jumpships.

[Nicoli]

For all the complaints about the "daisy-chaining isn't rules-legal", I respond with "The developers of the Argo created a genuine technological breakthrough the construction rules don't account for yet, but the prototype was lost and the personnel who knew the system got killed during either the 1st SSW"

It's as big a technological leap, in my mind, as the creation of Introtech when everyone was running what would eventually be known as Primitive Tech. Or the development of the Docking Collar, if we're staying in the realm of Jumpships.

Slight spoiler, If that was the case then the discussions about the risks of owning Lostech in-game were really stupid as you already have one of the most important pieces of lostech to recover considering the time period your in where Jumpships of any type were precious. I think it would have just been easier to handle it as a special exploration warship design. Instead of weapons and heavy armor it was fitted with tons of cargo space and things for long duration self-sufficiency. Something that would be very valuable to a merc unit but significantly less useful to a great house which is concerned about other things.

[Giovanni Blasini]

Slight spoiler, If that was the case then the discussions about the risks of owning Lostech in-game were really stupid as you already have one of the most important pieces of lostech to recover considering the time period your in where Jumpships of any type were precious. I think it would have just been easier to handle it as a special exploration warship design. Instead of weapons and heavy armor it was fitted with tons of cargo space and things for long duration self-sufficiency. Something that would be very valuable to a merc unit but significantly less useful to a great house which is concerned about other things.

Could also explain why ships like the SLS Pioneer were already being pulled from exploration use before the Amaris Coup.