Author Topic: So the celestial series... how to and why?  (Read 35726 times)

Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #30 on: 24 July 2019, 21:59:17 »
I picked up IntOps and am a little confused. So for bVDNI and VDNI, unless you have a small cockpit, just having a better pilot is more efficient due to the increased chance of pilot damage?


Also, Ermahgerd, I’m loving the balls out crazy that is the prototype version. -2/-3 but you roll for every single damage you suffer to see for pilot hits. I missed what the BV penalty would be.


Then it looked like there is a cockpit upgrade (4tons and a crit) that would let a VDNI pilot basically ignore their gyro and just roll pilot skill no matter what?


Greatclub

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #31 on: 24 July 2019, 22:24:59 »
I picked up IntOps and am a little confused. So for bVDNI and VDNI, unless you have a small cockpit, just having a better pilot is more efficient due to the increased chance of pilot damage?

yep. VDNI is gets average pilots to veteran equivalency, but that's basically a roleplaying thing.

Small cockpit (Which all celestials have) make your piloting worse. By counteracting that malus, bVDNI essentially gives you -1/-1 for the price of -1/-0.

The chance of pilot damage isn't a trivial thing, but usually doesn't become relevant until the unit is shot to garbage anyway. If it still worries you, pick up a pain shunt and become functionally immune to pilot hits for the additional cost of -0/-1.
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Then it looked like there is a cockpit upgrade (4tons and a crit) that would let a VDNI pilot basically ignore their gyro and just roll pilot skill no matter what?

No celestial has that. In fact, I think there are only 2-3 units that have those systems at all.

Pick up the wolf and blake starterbook. Nice little showcase of the psychos that pilot celestials, and a campaign to play them in.

« Last Edit: 24 July 2019, 22:30:01 by Greatclub »

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #32 on: 24 July 2019, 23:26:25 »
For serious hilarity, try running an Archangel with VDNI pilot who doesn't have Pain Shunt and see if you can kill the mech before killing the pilot.
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Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #33 on: 25 July 2019, 05:42:50 »
For a chaos campaign where you pay a certain cost for different skill level pilots, would this be a high risk/reward way to game the system? A regular pilot would be a 4/5, but a regular pilot with VDNI would be a 3/4 but cost the same? I’m only just really starting to read through chaos rules.


Honestly, I’m just looking for silly ways to justify bringing this stuff
« Last Edit: 25 July 2019, 06:30:41 by Church14 »

OpacusVenatori

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #34 on: 25 July 2019, 07:45:48 »
Honestly, I’m just looking for silly ways to justify bringing this stuff

As many have already stated, the troops of the Manei Domini are more for a flavor/rpg thing. So, there is no "real or hard" balance on using them.

If you want to use them outside an rpg scenario, just tell your opponent want you want to use and work together to find a bv2 compensation for deploy that kind of tech/troops.
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Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #35 on: 25 July 2019, 07:51:55 »
This is Battletech, just about any justification to do something is silly when you think about it.  For example; it is silly to justify that a platoon of infantry would have the balls to fight against a 100 ton Battlemech, but they do it.  It is silly to justify filling a coolant truck with napalm propellant and turning it into a fire truck, but people do it.  If you want to bring in an elite force of units to capture a planet (my understanding of what a chaos campaign is) then that go for it. 

I'm also a WoB fan, so if people are willing to spread the light and peace (through utter and indiscriminate destruction of their enemies  :) ) that is offered by Blake, then I will gladly get behind that person.

I do have a follow up question; not reading Strat Ops as of yet, what is their process for calculating BV costs for the implants?  I remember in the Jihad books it consisted of multipliers for the highest level implant, and everything below that was free.  Did they just change the multiplier?

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #36 on: 25 July 2019, 08:26:49 »
I do have a follow up question; not reading Strat Ops as of yet, what is their process for calculating BV costs for the implants?  I remember in the Jihad books it consisted of multipliers for the highest level implant, and everything below that was free.  Did they just change the multiplier?
Implants are in Interstellar Operations (which has a lot of tech despite its name).

Quick look indicates that augments are usually treated simply as multipliers, though others add to defensive or offensive BV.
For example, Triple Core Processor for a 'Mech adds -1 gunnery multiplier. Boosted Communications Implant is calculated like C3 network if the unit is linked to one.

This does rapidly increase BV cost of units. Say, a veteran pilot 3/4, with TCP (G -1), VDNI (G/P -1) and Pain Shunt (P -1) would be calculated as if it were 1/2 pilot.
That said, with sufficiently skilled pilot, you won't be paying extra for implants  since 0/0 pilot is the best possible and does not get further BV modifiers.

Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #37 on: 25 July 2019, 09:50:47 »
I'll have to look through Interstellar Ops (and buy the PDF I guess) when I get home from work, as it seems like maybe augments have decreased in cost a bit, maybe.  In the Jihad books each implant had a level, and a BV modifier attached to it.  You took your pilots highest implant level BV modifier, added it to the pilot BV, and that was what you multiplied the mech BV by to get the total unit BV.  Gets costly AF real fast. 

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #38 on: 25 July 2019, 10:01:36 »
You know, I have been meaning to make some MD characters just for fun. This may give me a excuse.
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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #39 on: 25 July 2019, 10:51:28 »
As many have already stated, the troops of the Manei Domini are more for a flavor/rpg thing. So, there is no "real or hard" balance on using them.

If you want to use them outside an rpg scenario, just tell your opponent want you want to use and work together to find a bv2 compensation for deploy that kind of tech/troops.

Actually, I would suggest that the new SPA system balances it.
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niall78

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #40 on: 25 July 2019, 11:46:52 »
I've always viewed the WoB Celestials as an OpFor rather than a player controlled force.

BV makes the cost of them insane. Utilising C3i with a good player in control you can see where some of that BV goes. Although as others have mentioned a lot of the stock Celestials are shockingly bad.

As far as cannon goes you can see why Celestial units and WoB premier units were a nightmare to face. A shadow division landing on a couple of regiments I'd give less time than facing a similar Clan force. Played out by BV and balanced makes WoB nearly unplayable though even with massive changes to their stock mech builds.

An amazing OpFor though. The most devastating battlefield opponent to ever grace an IS battlefield.
« Last Edit: 25 July 2019, 11:52:11 by niall78 »

Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #41 on: 25 July 2019, 12:34:32 »
I would be curious to play a game with an elite group of Manei Domini, especially the Opacus Venatori and their specific equipment.  The opposing force can bring a BV equivalent force.  Potentially the sheer numbers of dice being rolled could lead to the OV getting curb stomped, but played right the OV just need to keep moving, focus fire, and keep their C3i active to neglect the range modifiers of their weaponry.  I could easily see the elite MD pilots, with skills of 2/3 or 1/2, putting up quite the show as they would more likely consistently hit with their weapons every round. 


grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #42 on: 25 July 2019, 12:43:05 »
I would be curious to play a game with an elite group of Manei Domini, especially the Opacus Venatori and their specific equipment.  The opposing force can bring a BV equivalent force.  Potentially the sheer numbers of dice being rolled could lead to the OV getting curb stomped, but played right the OV just need to keep moving, focus fire, and keep their C3i active to neglect the range modifiers of their weaponry.  I could easily see the elite MD pilots, with skills of 2/3 or 1/2, putting up quite the show as they would more likely consistently hit with their weapons every round.

A level II of 2/3 and 3/2 MD with VDNI, in Celestials works out to a Binary of normal Clanners.  When I saw this happen, the Clanners were under a fairly strict Zell, and fear of that massed fire kept the MD player from using that C3i, even though he had to pay the BV for it.
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Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #43 on: 25 July 2019, 16:28:47 »
TBH, if I was playing Clans against the WoB I wouldn't even give them the chance of Zell.  Every single major force in the Inner Sphere knows that the WoB fights dirty; and not standard Inner Sphere surat dirty.  The WoB, especially the MD, start their invasion of a planet with a merry little orbital bombardment utilizing ballistic, nuclear, or chemical warheads.  They then follow that up with nasty, dishonorable technology (to the clans) and ganking whoever they run across that doesn't sport their colors.  I imagine they also kick orphanages into rivers and punch puppies (probably not, but I'm trying to emphasize a point :) ). 

In the end, the WoB is supposed to fight dirty.  That is how they win and, much to my distaste to the writers of Battletech at the time (all organizations need to have some saving grace, and the WoB's wasn't emphasized enough in the lore in my opinion), is how they got to be the big bad for an entire in-universe decade or two.  Clans shouldn't give them the chance of honorable combat on the battlefield, and the WoB shouldn't attempt to be honorable.  But that is my opinion, and may not be shared by all.

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #44 on: 25 July 2019, 21:24:51 »
Maybe I should post officially my Tau Omega MD Infantry Platoon...

Armor Divisor of 3
Platoon, Foot...
2MP... Glides...
Other funny business stuff...
Twelve people... 39 damage...
3 Tons... 264 BV...2/2 using C3i

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #45 on: 25 July 2019, 23:35:00 »
In the end, the WoB is supposed to fight dirty.  That is how they win and, much to my distaste to the writers of Battletech at the time (all organizations need to have some saving grace, and the WoB's wasn't emphasized enough in the lore in my opinion), is how they got to be the big bad for an entire in-universe decade or two.  Clans shouldn't give them the chance of honorable combat on the battlefield, and the WoB shouldn't attempt to be honorable.  But that is my opinion, and may not be shared by all.

I think a lot of the stuff that happened initially during the WoB war was the other Houses doing their sneaky stuff, and then conveniently saying it was the WoB using a false-color unit.

Basically, first the Houses blamed WoB, then they blammed WoB

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #46 on: 26 July 2019, 00:32:31 »
A level II of 2/3 and 3/2 MD with VDNI, in Celestials works out to a Binary of normal Clanners.  When I saw this happen, the Clanners were under a fairly strict Zell, and fear of that massed fire kept the MD player from using that C3i, even though he had to pay the BV for it.

That's a great time to use C3i, you walk a mech up beside an enemy in a duel with someone else, get short range modifiers when the other guy is at medium/long.  The one your spotter is at short range to can't fire at the spotter because of Zell.
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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #47 on: 26 July 2019, 00:41:45 »
C3 tech of any kind is a breaking of Zell, so gauge your opponent's mood very carefully before trying this. There is a very real chance that they will leap up and with a mighty roar of "DEZGRAAAA!!!", rip their shirt off and inform you with guns that It Is On.
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Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #48 on: 26 July 2019, 07:36:37 »
C3 tech of any kind is a breaking of Zell, so gauge your opponent's mood very carefully before trying this. There is a very real chance that they will leap up and with a mighty roar of "DEZGRAAAA!!!", rip their shirt off and inform you with guns that It Is On.

How would they know? I understand that the human playing the clans would know, but how would the in-universe clanner know that C3 is being used?

Tangoforone

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #49 on: 26 July 2019, 08:01:47 »
I believe in-universe Clan and later era IS targeting equipment is good at identifying what an enemy unit is using (similar to MWO with the targeting) and would pick up on radar signals. 

Like I said in my previous post, the WoB fights dirty, especially in the eyes of the Clans that still practice Zell.  So even if the Clan machines don't pick up on radar signals being sent from WoB C3i mechs, they would still expect that is what is occurring.  At least in my mind.

The WoB has a reputation, whether it was falsely presented by corrupt news agencies or was directly because of the WoB actions.  I would argue that no one, the Clans nor the IS, would give the opportunity of honor to a WoB unit, especially one in MD colors.

grimlock1

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #50 on: 26 July 2019, 08:17:03 »
How would they know? I understand that the human playing the clans would know, but how would the in-universe clanner know that C3 is being used?
:o

That is an EXCELLENT question.  Passive sensors will tell you that you are being painted and give you a threat direction even on a "orderly" Clan battlefield, how can you tell "he's looking at me," from "he's locking me up so he's ready to go as soon as I kill his friend, he can jump in," from "he's painting me for a C3 shot?"  I suppose you can identify LRM indirect because "Oh, LRMs are dropping straight down out of the sky on my and the only units within LOS are a Mad Dog C, a Black Python and a Kit Fox Prime but their bid also included 2 Mandrills..."


I believe in-universe Clan and later era IS targeting equipment is good at identifying what an enemy unit is using (similar to MWO with the targeting) and would pick up on radar signals. 
But how would a Clanner, or any poor sod being dog piled by a C3 formation be able to identify the message traffic between the spotter and the shooter?  If it's a directional broadcast, then you wouldn't even know its happening.  If it's on omnidirectional signal, there's no way to know who the intended recipient is.  I suppose that C3 happens on a very particular frequency band, with characteristic wave forms, so you could tell that there are C3 units in the area and they are broadcasting.  The countermeasure to that is to constantly broadcast on the C3 band.  C3 units are constantly sharing encrypted versions of encyclopedia Britannica so that when you do send targeting data, it's a tiny change in a sea of encrypted signals.

So they in-game explanation seems like C3 uses an omnidirectional signal, and maintains a steady stream "housekeeping" transmissions that tells the enemy that a network is in the field. Then when you actually share targeting data, there is a distinct change in the signal traffic.

And once again I've started a post by saying "it shouldn't work that way" and by the time I'm done I've figured out that "it really could work that way."
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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #51 on: 26 July 2019, 08:57:29 »
C3 tech of any kind is a breaking of Zell, so gauge your opponent's mood very carefully before trying this. There is a very real chance that they will leap up and with a mighty roar of "DEZGRAAAA!!!", rip their shirt off and inform you with guns that It Is On.

Name one thing that isn't a standard Clan response to.

But at the same time, in-universe at least some of the Clans seem to respect dirty tricks when they work - The Smoke Jaguars didn't schwack Wolcott from orbit when they realised they had been tricked in the Batchall, nor did they or the Nova Cats cry foul on Luthien, or the Clans in general on Tukayyid when the Inner Sphere forces used ambushes, decoys, traps, and other deceptive tactics.
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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #52 on: 26 July 2019, 09:23:48 »
Name one thing that isn't a standard Clan response to.

Flan. Even uncultured swine like Clan Warriors appreciate a good flan.
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Empyrus

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #53 on: 26 July 2019, 09:27:24 »
Flan...?

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #54 on: 26 July 2019, 09:33:39 »
The Clans appreciate winning.  If you cheat, and I should have seen it coming, then I've got to nod my head and give you credit.  A true warrior has cunning, and tries to win with what he's got against superior forces.  Of course, at a certain point, they get pissed off.  If you keep cheating, then obviously the rules mean nothing to you and it's time for massed fire.

I think you've got to separate behavior that the Clans would not engage in from truly dishonorable conduct that they hate.  For instance, you don't get any honor from an artillery kill.  When you're basically fighting for breeding rights, to pass on your genetics, getting stuck in a Naga shooting Arrow IVs at distant targets really sucks.  Nobody wants to do that.  Nobody wants to pilot the Naga and nobody wants to spot for the Naga.  It's a punishment assignment.  Now, for Star Colonel Dave, using artillery to wipe out a company of tanks that are over that ridge would be fine.  There's no real opportunity for honor in smashing vehicles, so you might as well just bombard them.  And if an Inner Sphere mech company is dumb enough to leave themselves wide open to artillery bombardment, well it sucks to be them.  You can always play it up that you are full of wisdom and not blinded by raw ambition ("and I'm really humble too...").  But for the warriors piloting the mechs, well they hate it.  Therefore the Clans don't use artillery all that much, even when it would make sense to do so.

I think that's probably why they don't use C3 networks.  While it's an advantage overall for your side, it's basically like asking for help.  You are making it easier for your buddy way over there to assist you in killing your target.  Most Clan warriors wouldn't use C3 because they don't want to.  There's nothing necessarily dishonorable about it (as in it's not treacherous), but it sure makes you look like a wussy.  You might as well say "I'm gonna call my dad!"  I don't think it's the kind of thing that would make Clan warriors immediately froth in rage if they Inner Sphere used it against them.

That said, I also don't think the example given, of a Celestial pilot walking his machine up next to a duel between two other mechs, is a particularly good one.  I think the average hyper-cocky Clan warrior would simply say "Fine, I'll kill you both!" and unload on the guy dumb enough to make himself an easy target.  He's not going to interfere in somebody else's duel, but if an enemy mech is clearly not engaging the guy he's supposed to be fighting, and instead comes wandering over to you?  Fair game, man.

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #55 on: 26 July 2019, 09:38:08 »
Flan. Even uncultured swine like Clan Warriors appreciate a good flan.

they would probably initiate a trial of refusal over japanese gas station flan

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #56 on: 26 July 2019, 09:43:13 »
The Clans, as far as I can tell, consider the WoB to be bandit scum rather than an enemy worthy of respect.  By the time the Shadow Divisions started appearing, the Blakists had already been making extensive use of NBC weaponry and that alone was enough to get them declared permanently dezgra.
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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #57 on: 26 July 2019, 10:13:52 »
Flan. Even uncultured swine like Clan Warriors appreciate a good flan.

Yeah, but you know they'll go into overdrive and start calling for a Trial of Possession for that Spheroid two tables over's flan because he's using a fork instead of a spoon and that's dishonourable.

That said, I also don't think the example given, of a Celestial pilot walking his machine up next to a duel between two other mechs, is a particularly good one.  I think the average hyper-cocky Clan warrior would simply say "Fine, I'll kill you both!" and unload on the guy dumb enough to make himself an easy target.  He's not going to interfere in somebody else's duel, but if an enemy mech is clearly not engaging the guy he's supposed to be fighting, and instead comes wandering over to you?  Fair game, man.

And if the guy that's moved close to you is in a duel of his own?  And that guy happens to be at short range of the guy you're duelling?
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Church14

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #58 on: 26 July 2019, 10:14:21 »
Alright. So outside of warships scale nuke/chem/bioweapons, What are the dirty and dishonorable equipment/weapons brought by WoB. This thread is kind of becoming a WoB strat guide in general to me.

We have:
Celestial designs
Damn near everything has C3i
Sticking Unstable and psychosis induced upgrades into your people


Are their chem weapons or artillery that are more mech scale?

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Re: So the celestial series... how to and why?
« Reply #59 on: 26 July 2019, 10:44:55 »
Are their chem weapons or artillery that are more mech scale?

Chemical weapons tend to be outside the scope of your average tabletop game, and generally mechs and combat vehicles are sealed so the crews are safe.  There are rules for playing in hostile environments including radiation, biological and chemical weapons in Tactical Operations, and there are rules for deploying WMDs in Interstellar Operations.

Artillery is far more common, though with the exception of Arrow IV launchers it tends to be vehicle mounted as opposed to on mechs, rules are in Tactical Operations.
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