Author Topic: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger  (Read 36323 times)

Daryk

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Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« on: 13 December 2022, 19:01:42 »
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DOC_Agren

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #1 on: 13 December 2022, 19:53:08 »
tagging in
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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #2 on: 13 December 2022, 21:49:45 »
Ping!
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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #3 on: 13 December 2022, 21:50:50 »
i suspect a lot of Allied tankers wished that germany had gone with the Porsche Tiger design.. a tank that kills itself..
« Last Edit: 13 December 2022, 21:55:38 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #4 on: 13 December 2022, 21:54:37 »
The Henschel Tiger was still in many ways a bad tank even if it wasn't as flawed as Porsche's design.  The tracks were narrow and gave it poor performance on soft ground, it was hard to maintain, the armor was thick but flat so it wasn't as effective as it could have been were it sloped, and it was fairly expensive to build which limited production.
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David CGB

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tig
« Reply #5 on: 13 December 2022, 22:06:32 »
The Henschel Tiger was still in many ways a bad tank even if it wasn't as flawed as Porsche's design.  The tracks were narrow and gave it poor performance on soft ground, it was hard to maintain, the armor was thick but flat so it wasn't as effective as it could have been were it sloped, and it was fairly expensive to build which limited production.
The question is how much fear did it cause?
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #6 on: 13 December 2022, 22:07:30 »
I'm pretty sure that Porsche's version would have inspired similar levels of fear.  That gun was scary regardless of what it was mounted on.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #7 on: 13 December 2022, 22:42:41 »
the major problem for both Porsche and Henschel's design, was that tank development was still extremely new, the knowledge of what works, and what doesn't, wasn't well established until well into the 1950s, and we're Still on a learning curve today as industrial processes that weren't even dreamed of in 1940 are being outmoded by methods developed in the last 30 years.

so it's kind of unfair to criticize what was cutting edge thinking in the second world war-they didn't have things like realistic computer modeling or computer aided drafting, or even much real development into materials sciences by today's standards to tell them things like 'flat armor bad', or how to get the most out of each scrap of metal.

much of the raw pragmatic knowledge ("This gearbox is too fiddly") hadn't really evolved or dispersed yet, when those tanks were made.

AND...Germany had a problem.  The problem they had, was plenty of coal, and after France, plenty of iron, but the metallurgy was still...kinda shit, honestly.  Rare earths like Molybdenum, Tungsten, and Carbides were pretty thin on the ground in the ground they were on, and Germany's not exactly sitting on a lake of oil.  The big oil deposits like the North Sea fields weren't just unknown, they were unreachable had they even BEEN known.

so 'tis not really fair to mock the designs-they were the best the Germans could do with available knowledge, given their industries and the ironhanded central control of their economy (a feature of that sort of governance, but also a major flaw of it.)

one of the main reasons that these:



were still in use ten years after the war in front line units, while these:



weren't? is because all that extra armor and huge main gun were overkill for most of the actual roles required, and the weight of all of it was more than the hardware and suspension it was built with could actually handle.

also because the Sherman, was designed to be built and maintained quickly, with easily serviced parts that could be shipped across oceans, making upgrades easier, maintenance simpler, and reliability higher.

The tank you have, if it works, beats ten tanks parked in the lager waiting for spares or broken down on the highway on the way to the battlefield.  It's the same principle as "Only shots that hit, do damage."  If you can't get your shootahs to the battle, they're of no value in the battle.
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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #8 on: 13 December 2022, 22:52:45 »
Another common issue was when designed the transmission would be designed and finalized buy wasn't upgraded as more layers of armor or bigger guns were added, this was an issue for everything from pz4 onwards,
So it wasn't a bad Transmission it was a Trans built for a unit 15-20 tons lighter
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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #9 on: 13 December 2022, 23:15:10 »
Another common issue was when designed the transmission would be designed and finalized buy wasn't upgraded as more layers of armor or bigger guns were added, this was an issue for everything from pz4 onwards,
So it wasn't a bad Transmission it was a Trans built for a unit 15-20 tons lighter

The underlying thinking was the problem, Dave.  Somehow, the Reich's engineering staff didn't bother to account for what that extra weight would do, they were, ahem...'just following orders' without actually thinking about what the outcome of those orders would be.

Which is a pretty common trait of centrally planned logistics and economics, particularly the refusal to account for what your means do to your ends when you treat the ends as justifying the means.

meaning nobody intended for the transmissions to be unable to take the added weight, but nobody accounted for it either.  Which is almost a sin in engineering terms, when you think on it a bit.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #10 on: 13 December 2022, 23:32:54 »
the major problem for both Porsche and Henschel's design, was that tank development was still extremely new, the knowledge of what works, and what doesn't, wasn't well established until well into the 1950s, and we're Still on a learning curve today as industrial processes that weren't even dreamed of in 1940 are being outmoded by methods developed in the last 30 years.

so it's kind of unfair to criticize what was cutting edge thinking in the second world war-they didn't have things like realistic computer modeling or computer aided drafting, or even much real development into materials sciences by today's standards to tell them things like 'flat armor bad', or how to get the most out of each scrap of metal.

It's not really the construction of the tank that I have a problem with so much as people who look at its portrayal in games that don't account for its technical issues and consequently treat it like it was a super-tank that was just better at everything than Allied tanks based on its gun.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #11 on: 13 December 2022, 23:39:13 »
It's not really the construction of the tank that I have a problem with so much as people who look at its portrayal in games that don't account for its technical issues and consequently treat it like it was a super-tank that was just better at everything than Allied tanks based on its gun.

Game developers often do the stupidest things.  I seem to recall a popular FPS game introducing a .50BMG Garand rifle to their lineup as a premium item.  (not only impractical, but mechanically impossible for a shoulder weapon in the 12 pound weight limit of an M-1 Garand).

Players often accept those stupid things, because it's fun, not because they think it's accurate.  World of Tanks doesn't really HAVE a mechanic for mechanical unreliability, because that's not fun.
(or at least, it didn't during the time I briefly played.)

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glitterboy2098

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tig
« Reply #12 on: 13 December 2022, 23:56:40 »
The question is how much fear did it cause?
enough that there were more reported tiger tanks being sighted than were built.

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #13 on: 14 December 2022, 00:11:13 »
One YouTuber summed it up as Germany's attempt to go for more quality over quantity when they didn't have enough of ether.
There was no way Axis was going to produce enough armor to fight a war on two fronts so they became obsessed with the idea of the super tank that could best anything (I say obsessed because this was the brain trust that came up with the Mouse and later the most likely meth inspired Ratte) but when your bleeding resources and personnel, a bigger gun is only going to gain you so much.

So yeah, a scary tank used by scary people but died all the same.         
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chanman

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #14 on: 14 December 2022, 00:20:48 »
The Henschel Tiger was still in many ways a bad tank even if it wasn't as flawed as Porsche's design.  The tracks were narrow and gave it poor performance on soft ground, it was hard to maintain, the armor was thick but flat so it wasn't as effective as it could have been were it sloped, and it was fairly expensive to build which limited production.



Nothing narrow about those tracks. 520mm wide travel tracks, 725mm normal tracks for 1.545 kg/cm2 and 1.11 kg/cm2 ground pressure respectively. (Tanks Encyclopedia). That's not far off an early-war Panzer 4 at 0.98 kg/cm2 or Sherman (1.01 kg/cm2). Tiger's mobility issue wasn't tactical (on the battlefield). It was strategic.

The Chieftain goes into how it's appropriate for its original doctrinal role (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57oRqB_a-SA).

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #15 on: 14 December 2022, 01:12:55 »
I've seen that video.  There's other sources I've seen that have called the Tiger's tracks too narrow for its weight which led to it having traction problems in ice, mud, and snow compared to other tanks.  And that was on top of the tendency for said ice, mud, and snow to get packed into the spaces between the wheels until things started to break.  There was a book I had at one point that was all about the Tiger that talked about the issue, but I'm not even sure if I've still got it: I got rid of a bunch of books a few years back and I'm not sure if I kept it.

Game developers often do the stupidest things.  I seem to recall a popular FPS game introducing a .50BMG Garand rifle to their lineup as a premium item.  (not only impractical, but mechanically impossible for a shoulder weapon in the 12 pound weight limit of an M-1 Garand).

Players often accept those stupid things, because it's fun, not because they think it's accurate.  World of Tanks doesn't really HAVE a mechanic for mechanical unreliability, because that's not fun.
(or at least, it didn't during the time I briefly played.)

And excessive realism is not something that most games should strive for just because it would be painfully un-fun: imagine trying to play a KV-2 if it took as long to reload as it did in real life or if it were as prone to tipping over on uneven ground as it actually was.  The problem is that too many people look at World of Tanks or other games (both video and tabletop) and ignore that things were changed for the game to make them fun and instead assume that things like the T-34 88 and the Tiger I mounting the Tiger II's cannon are things that actually happened.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #16 on: 14 December 2022, 01:31:03 »
One YouTuber summed it up as Germany's attempt to go for more quality over quantity when they didn't have enough of ether.
There was no way Axis was going to produce enough armor to fight a war on two fronts so they became obsessed with the idea of the super tank that could best anything (I say obsessed because this was the brain trust that came up with the Mouse and later the most likely meth inspired Ratte) but when your bleeding resources and personnel, a bigger gun is only going to gain you so much.

So yeah, a scary tank used by scary people but died all the same.       
un fortunately by the time they built it, quality was starting to be difficult to achieve as well. due to a combination of poor workmanship (overworked factory workers or even slave labor often enough) and overengineering (pretty much every part had to be custom fit to meet the intended levels of performance.)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #17 on: 14 December 2022, 01:45:15 »
And that led to eliminating quality control from production.
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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #18 on: 14 December 2022, 02:31:23 »
And here's the version of the Tiger most Western soldiers encountered in WW2:



Yup. The "legendary" status of the Tiger meant anything not a Panther was reported as a Tiger. Panzer IV was deadly enough.

Still, if you can find Otto Carius' book "Tigers in the Mud", it's a great read.
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Sabelkatten

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #19 on: 14 December 2022, 05:24:59 »
Regarding the Tiger's tracks, didn't the first versions have have narrower ones that were replaced pretty quickly?

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #20 on: 14 December 2022, 05:29:41 »
Let's also not forget how needlessly complex the Tiger was.  The engine didn't turn the tracks. The engine turned a generator, which turned traction motors, which turned the tracks. All while Germany had a shortage of copper.    ::)
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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #21 on: 14 December 2022, 08:01:47 »
Let's also not forget how needlessly complex the Tiger was.  The engine didn't turn the tracks. The engine turned a generator, which turned traction motors, which turned the tracks. All while Germany had a shortage of copper.    ::)
Wait, what? Why all this complexity?

In general I know that the Tiger was not what they needed (they needed A LOT more panzer IVs AKA ·the German T34/85 or Sherman) but tracks were certainly not the issue with it. The cost in materials, man hours and monthly output of tigers per month were, as well as the logistical train of the Germans, that went more and more complex as time went by, when their resources were dwindling. So this left a lot of the produced tigers (that were too scarce anyway) unable to perform due to breakdowns. And when they performed they were not what was needed, except in a few ideal cases.

I always liked how late war sloped armor was becoming more prevalent after the T34 demonstrated its usefulness,  but the Tiger has a kind of shoebox brutality to it that is sexy in itself. 

Sabelkatten

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #22 on: 14 December 2022, 09:31:42 »
Let's also not forget how needlessly complex the Tiger was.  The engine didn't turn the tracks. The engine turned a generator, which turned traction motors, which turned the tracks. All while Germany had a shortage of copper.    ::)
AFAIK that was the Porsche variant that didn't get produced.

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #23 on: 14 December 2022, 10:04:18 »
A bit of clarification:

The TIGER didn't have an electric drive. The Porsche competitor did. Porsche built one gun tank, but the rest of the chassis were converted to the Ferdinand/Elefant tank destroyers. There were around 100 of these vehicles (with a gun tank version serving as a command tank in one of the battalions). The Tiger we all know and love had a conventional engine & drive train.

Also, I want to qualify that any discussions about the Ratte needs to be had with the fact that this was a back-of-a-napkin design, that has become very popular in military fandom because of how ridiculous it really was.

The problem with tanks like the Tiger (& really Tiger II) was mission creep & interference from above. So you got tanks that had weak transmissions...because they weren't designed to pull that weight. This was an issue with the Panther as well. It had a transmission for a 30 ton tank driving a 45 ton tank, so it could often be overstressed. You needed care when driving the Panther. But the problem was exacerbated by the custom of assigning green crews to Panthers, & veterans to Panzer IVs (the idea was to even out performance). Tiger crews would have been veterans, however.

One final note about the Tiger. They did not originally field with narrow tracks, that were widened later. They were, however, fitted with "transport" tracks. These were the narrow tracks discussed before that were intended just for transport & road march purposes. When the tanks reached their assembly area, the tracks were to be switched (usually after unloading at the rail head) to battle tracks. The idea was to save on wear & tear. It was also a huge pain, so if the tank could be transported with battle tracks in place, it would be.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #24 on: 14 December 2022, 10:30:53 »
A bit of clarification:

The TIGER didn't have an electric drive. The Porsche competitor did. Porsche built one gun tank, but the rest of the chassis were converted to the Ferdinand/Elefant tank destroyers. There were around 100 of these vehicles (with a gun tank version serving as a command tank in one of the battalions).

And the Ferdi/Elefant strained the Porsche's transmission system by slapping on a lot more armor and a bigger gun after removing the turret.  It also had terrible visibility even for an armored vehicle: Soviet infantry found that it was easy to hide from by laying down in a trench until it was no longer facing them head-on, then popping up and stuffing anti-tank grenades into vulnerable points.
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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #25 on: 14 December 2022, 14:08:53 »
In general I know that the Tiger was not what they needed (they needed A LOT more panzer IVs AKA ·the German T34/85 or Sherman)

The Germans where never going to make enough Panzer IVs nor have enough tankers to crew the numbers they needed, thus the push and then the over reliance on bigger guns in the hopes they could kill more Allied armor than they would loose.
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Fat Guy

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #26 on: 14 December 2022, 15:15:47 »
AFAIK that was the Porsche variant that didn't get produced.

You are correct sir. That's what I get for trying to post at 5:30am before the coffee kicks in. 

My bad.    :-[
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Daryk

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #27 on: 14 December 2022, 18:37:54 »
The Porsche version having an electric drive makes perfect sense.  One of his first designs was an electric car, after all...  ^-^

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #28 on: 14 December 2022, 20:23:39 »
The Porsche version having an electric drive makes perfect sense.  One of his first designs was an electric car, after all...  ^-^

Porsche was always forward looking, but really missed the mark in terms of military necessity. Of note is the Ferdinand/Elefant, which used a huge amount of strategic material for the electric drives, the Porsche designed turret for the Tiger II (which was complicated to make, had a shot trap), which was soon discontinued (maybe 100 finished with that turret, out of a little less than 400), & the Porsche designed suspension for the Jagdtiger, also discontinued as unnecessarily complex. There may be other examples I am forgetting...

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Daryk

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Re: Armored Fighting Vehicles VI: Eye of the Tiger
« Reply #29 on: 14 December 2022, 20:25:33 »
The spiral up in the factory's museum included exactly ZERO other electric designs.  The exploded racing engine was FASCINATING...  8)

 

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