Why is the Warrior trilogy so popular? (Spoilers)

[Hydrofoil Goat]

Battletech fiction is what got me into the universe so recently I finally decided to actually read through all of it in order. I started with Sword and the Dagger, and while it was poorly written in some parts and the story wasn't great, it wasn't nearly as bad as I felt it had been made out to be. I blazed through the Gray Death Legion trilogy and thoroughly enjoyed it, although some of it was a little campy.

I'm now halfway through Warrior: En Garde, and MAN is it bad. I've heard a lot of high praise for this book and trilogy and I guess I'm just confused as to why people like it so much. The dialogue is exceptionally hammy, there is a hell of a lot of exposition delivered as dialogue, and there seem to be about fifteen main characters which is just too many to keep track of or care about. There doesn't seem to be much in the way of consistency in the behaviour of said characters either, which makes it even more difficult to engage with them.

I'm particularly confused by the continuity issues though. I have read the pages discussed below multiple times and I just can't figure it out. Am I missing something, or is it a genuine and serious continuity problem?

In the middle of Chapter 25, Andrew Redburn, Ardan Sortek, Katrina Steiner and Melissa Steiner's double get into a hovercraft. The relevant passage reads:

Melissa preceded the others into the craft's dark interior. She seated herself with her back to the hovercraft's pilot and Leftenant Redburn sat down in the jump seat beside her.

She then performs a dramatic swap with the hovercraft's pilot to reveal that the pilot was actually Melissa all along, and the Melissa on the landing pad was a double!

Turning the page, we read this:

Johnson glanced over to where Redburn stood talking to the Archon and raised an eyebrow. Ardan shook his head only slightly, as if to say, Redburn knows nothing of the double, or of his true purpose here.

Wasn't Redburn sitting in the hovercraft when Melissa did the swap?

I'm charging on as I do want to get through all the fiction and by and large I have been enjoying it. I'm just wondering how something like this was missed, whether it has been noticed before, and why, with so many issues, the Warrior trilogy gets so much praise?

[roosterboy]

Turning the page, we read this:

Johnson glanced over to where Redburn stood talking to the Archon and raised an eyebrow. Ardan shook his head only slightly, as if to say, Redburn knows nothing of the double, or of his true purpose here.

Wasn't Redburn sitting in the hovercraft when Melissa did the swap?

"the double" here refers to Hanse's double, which Ardan was thinking about just two paragraphs earlier. Andrew Redburn knows nothing of the whole incident where Hanse Davion was replaced with a double and Ardan was reassuring Simon Johnson of that fact.

with so many issues

What else?

[Hydrofoil Goat]

"the double" here refers to Hanse's double, which Ardan was thinking about just two paragraphs earlier. Andrew Redburn knows nothing of the whole incident where Hanse Davion was replaced with a double and Ardan was reassuring Simon Johnson of that fact.

Ah that makes sense, thank you. I was quite puzzled.

[Frabby]

I'll admit that Stackpole isn't my favorite BT author. His characters are very one-dimensional and his protagonists are invariably superiorly skilled supermen who can plan even for the weirdest and most convenient random events three steps ahead of their moustache-twirling cardboard villain opponents. I recognize the deliberate pulp fiction writing style, I just don't like it very much anymore.

However, having re-read the books a couple of years ago, I have to give it to Stackpole that he's a virtuoso master of creating and connecting intertwining plot lines, and of world building. The latter especially is what the Warrior trilogy set out to do, and succeeded spectacularly! These novels set the groundwork in motion that made BT the precursor to Game of Thrones. We even get a jaw-dropping wedding event. ;)

[Atlas3060]

Stackpole's way of writing is pretty pulp and cardboard in instances. Still in a way I think we need those every now and then.
The Warrior Trilogy was the first book for a lot of people. I officially came in through another novel but the first trilogy I read was Warrior Trilogy and at the time I liked it.

Now I'd probably just read for the sake of some nostalgic binge through the series of books chronologically, but even so I can't deny the camp I might enjoy and I'll admit a book like this is needed.

Heroes and villains "one dimensional"? Possibly so, but this could also been seen as a necessary evil because the Trilogy could be handed to someone new to the Universe after a boxed set play.

Here's your "good" guys and "bad" now you have a deeper connection to the names in a TRO you just bought.
Read other books from the other authors to see other sides of view towards an event, then form your own opinions slowly but surely. Then get analytical as all get out when you're reading sourcebooks.

Much like how a newborn is given one perspective on the world, I feel the Warrior Trilogy is that tool.
Will some move on from it? Maybe. Is it required to do so? Naw.

there is a hell of a lot of exposition delivered as dialogue

Oh that's just the Battletech charm as well as something I've noticed in books of other titles.
I mean you haven't read enough books until you can mentally fill in "man made lightning" as a description of PPCs when scrolling through a book.  ;D
The number of times they describe Mechs as humanoid titans of war or avatars of war gods, complete with myonmer muscle that blah blah blahs is worthy if a Cinema Sins ding. That's just part of the fun in the old novels.
As for the dialogue exposition, well it is a big universe and your "camera" that is the novel's attention won't collect everything.

[pixelgeek]

I really loved the trilogy when it first came out. They really don't age well. The main plot of the series is complex and unbelievable. Justin's dialogue is really one-dimensional and unbelievable. I would have also liked more story about combat operations. When I read the series now that is what I focus on. Those are the best parts of the books.

[Mendrugo]

What I liked about the Warrior Trilogy is the setting.  The characters, as has been noted, are pulp stock heroes or mustache-twirling villains/incompetent goons, existing simply for the heroes to take apart without breaking a sweat.

However, as a gateway to the BattleTech universe, the novels gave me a good sense of how these star empires fit together (excepting the Free Worlds League, which was sidelined so Stackpole could have a clear Steiner/Davion vs. oriental menace vibe).  The politics worked well for me, introducing the machinations of ComStar, the mercenary trade, the competing alliances, internal divisions within each featured faction (again, Marik = who?), etc.  Stackpole generally did a good job of setting up unique planets and settings for his characters, and added enough detail for them to feel lived in.  (Of course, much of the detail was drawn from the Arizona region where he lived, so we got a hot red-rock desert on ice-covered New Syrtis.)

There are some bits that, as is common with early works, don't fit the game mechanics that were later codified.  Melissa's DropShip seems to be making pirate point arrivals at each stop along the way, and it is far too easy for the Genyosha to track the Kell Hounds when they jump.  There's an odd time jump of several months between when the LIC abducts Jeana Clay to be Melissa's double and the scene where she wakes up and wonders what happened.  All told, however, the wide-ranging story provided a sufficient jumping off point for delving into the universe that I'm willing to give these elements a pass.

[Alex Keller]

Here's another opinion i'll toss out there:

Books/Movies/Shows all have different target audiences.  If you're a 40 year old reading the Warrior trilogy, your opinion is going to differ significantly from a 13 year old's opinion.  An older audience has read books written by more skillful authors, and has had life experiences that most adolescents have never had. 

Young me really liked Stackpole's books.  They were exciting, things happened quickly, and everything was so black and white.  Old me appreciates more nuance, character development, and careful writing. 

When people praise the Warrior trilogy, they might be remembering it from when they read the books in their youth. 

[FaithBomb]

You also have to remember, that these books laid out a lot of the foundational material for the universe to come. Were these books flawed as hell? Yeah, probably. I for one cringe at Melissa Steiner as a character. She's tropish, doe-eyed, and basically under age. She was a terrible character as written, but she grew, as did Stackpole's writing, and the universe as a whole, as time went on. It's a bit like watching Star Trek or Star Trek TNG now. When you look back on them in terms of acting, plot, and a host of other things, they're cringe-worthy compared to what we are spoiled with now. The Warrior Trilogy was good for it's time, and it has held up somewhat, but you can't judge it against the framework of what we have now, as the universe, and the real world around us, as grown immensely.

[worktroll]

You also have to remember, that these books laid out a lot of the foundational material for the universe to come. Were these books flawed as hell? Yeah, probably. I for one cringe at Melissa Steiner as a character. She's tropish, doe-eyed, and basically under age. She was a terrible character as written, but she grew, as did Stackpole's writing, and the universe as a whole, as time went on. It's a bit like watching Star Trek or Star Trek TNG now. When you look back on them in terms of acting, plot, and a host of other things, they're cringe-worthy compared to what we are spoiled with now. The Warrior Trilogy was good for it's time, and it has held up somewhat, but you can't judge it against the framework of what we have now, as the universe, and the real world around us, as grown immensely.

You summed it up perfectly, Faithbomb. So many seeds got planted in those books, we're still seeing the growth decades later.

[YingJanshi]

My introduction to BT fiction was Wolves on the Border, so I found the Warrior Trilogy to be severely lacking in comparison.
That said it does have some enjoyable moments. The Kell plotline is probably the highlight for me.

That said the whole Justin A. as a spy plot was just so laughably bad. Maxie Liao was inexcusably incompetent I'm almost tempted to write off the whole novel as an in-universe Davion holofiction in the same way the Somerset Strikers are treated (broadest possible strokes are true, but many details are fictionalized).

[FaithBomb]

My introduction to BT fiction was Wolves on the Border, so I found the Warrior Trilogy to be severely lacking in comparison.
That said it does have some enjoyable moments. The Kell plotline is probably the highlight for me.

That said the whole Justin A. as a spy plot was just so laughably bad. Maxie Liao was inexcusably incompetent I'm almost tempted to write off the whole novel as an in-universe Davion holofiction in the same way the Somerset Strikers are treated (broadest possible strokes are true, but many details are fictionalized).

My problem with Justin Allard is summarized by the line "My god! It's a Rifleman!"

[Major Headcase]

After going back  myself recently to reread the old books that got me into Btech; the Warrior books and the GDL books. I too was a bit disappointed that they didn't match my golden memories of epic literature...
I still like them, but I have to consciously choose to like them despite the many flaws.
However it dawned on me that they really aren't that out of place for what they were at the time. Whether intentional or not, Battletech novels were Young Fiction. They were written to support a product overwhelmingly marketed to teenage boys, like me, whose idea of "literature" was severely limited. So to my 14 year old mind, many of the behaviours that seem absurd now made perfect sense! Over-emotional, overacted, and nonsensical!! The characters were shallow and telegraphed, as were the plotlines. And I still got sucked in and was overwhelmed with awe!!
Ah, simple times...  :)
As long as I remember it's time and function in the shaping of early Battletech, I can still enjoy reading those older books, not despite, but especially because they read like the novelisation of a cartoon series. And my inner 14 year old still enjoys them.

[pixelgeek]

I for one cringe at Melissa Steiner as a character. She's tropish, doe-eyed, and basically under age.

I still find her marriage to Hanse creepy.

[FaithBomb]

I still find her marriage to Hanse creepy.

Yeah, it still is on a lot of levels. First, it is an arranged marriage. It doesn't matter that there is an attempt at hand-waving by having Katrina ask Melissa later if it is what she wants, the point is that the deed was already done, Melissa was in a subservient role in terms of power structure and really could not properly consent. It's just bizarre, and I'm not sure why they needed it this way. It could just have easily been done in a way that allowed her to make the choice for herself. But I suppose that might not have let her be used as easily as a plot device as she was.

The second level is the age gap. Hanse was born in 2983 and Melissa in 3010. That's a 27 year age gap. Now, that's a HUGE age gap at any point in life, but if we were dealing with it when they were both well into adulthood, it would be less weird. But she's a child when the arrangement is made and little more than a teenager when it is consummated. I'm not really sure what it adds to the story to have this massive of an age gap. I get that they wanted Hanse to be more established and Melissa as the junior partner, but I'm not sure what that adds in the first place and I'm certainly not sure what such a vast difference accomplishes.

[Mendrugo]

Not to mention that Hanse 1) made a pass at Katrina during the negotiations on Terra and 2) had multiple “female companions” during the post-betrothal period he was waiting for Melissa to come of age.

[FaithBomb]

Not to mention that Hanse 1) made a pass at Katrina during the negotiations on Terra and 2) had multiple “female companions” during the post-betrothal period he was waiting for Melissa to come of age.

I don't know, I have less of a problem with that. That's just Hanse being a guy and a douche. It's not excusable behavior, but it would be understandable from the ruler of a giant space empire.

[Greatclub]

Welcome to feudalism; the marriage is one that has plenty of historical precedent. The fact that we no longer consider it normal says as much about us as them. Henry VIII was marrying (then executing) teenagers in his 50s. For that matter, it's been less than a half century since the arranged marriage of Charles and Diana, and they had a 12 year gap.

The way Stackpole wrote Melissa, however, did not do justice to her writeup in the House Steiner book.

00000

The way the Kell hounds were introduced and their backstory - if somebody wrote that up in the non-canon units sub-board, we'd probably mock them as the most improbable of special snowflakes. They tick way too many boxes in the 'amateur fanfiction' checklist. The way they're handled post-invasion is a bit less heavy handed.

Kym Sorenson is another one of the ones that irritates me. A honeypot femme fatale that nevertheless inevitably falls for her "victims"

[FaithBomb]

Kym Sorenson is another one of the ones that irritates me. A honeypot femme fatale that nevertheless inevitably falls for her "victims"

Yeah, I had totally forgotten about her. She basically makes the same mistake twice, falling for any strong male that she is assigned to, and is treated as property in both of her "relationships"

[butchbird]

For us french speaking people whom didn't have access to english books nor internet 1in the first half of 1990, there were 6 novels available...of course the warrior trilogy made half of those books.

When I read them I was what...8 or 9 years old? 10 maybe.

Anyway, fact is I was drawn in this universe big time by the stackpole books...actually was deceived myself by the rather bland double play of justin allard (He was actually a davion spy all along! gasp!).

Maybe I was especially gullible for a young boy...but there you have proof that as far as young readers are concerned, it was very well written...and of course, leaning on the wonderfull BTU made sure that the setting really had something to offer...even a kid could see how deep this science-fiction universe was, and how this was but the tip of the iceberg.

Once I read those 6 books, my appreciation  of star wars was forever changed, and the star trek universe didn't seem so well constucted anymore. And the warrior trilogy was a major part of that thanks to its approach of covering the whole of the 4th succesion war all at the same time.

[Greatclub]

Something people forget is also the editing. GDL, warrior and BOK trilogies were printed in house by FASA. The later novels were done by ROC, and had to be run by ROCs editing staff.

While this led to some nasty executive meddling later in the 90s, in the short run it made the series a lot more polished after the initial handful of FASA books.

[pixelgeek]

Welcome to feudalism;

Still doesn't stop it being creepy as hell

[klarg1]

Oh that's just the Battletech charm as well as something I've noticed in books of other titles.
I mean you haven't read enough books until you can mentally fill in "man made lightning" as a description of PPCs when scrolling through a book.  ;D
The number of times they describe Mechs as humanoid titans of war or avatars of war gods, complete with myonmer muscle that blah blah blahs is worthy if a Cinema Sins ding. That's just part of the fun in the old novels.
As for the dialogue exposition, well it is a big universe and your "camera" that is the novel's attention won't collect everything.

We have locally  compared the writing to classical epic poetry, complete with archetypal characters and canned descriptions and epithets to help with recitation.

"Ruby red laser"
"and avatar of an ancient war god"

are just "wine dark sea" and "rosy fingered dawn" for the '80's giant robot fan.

[Marveryn]

Not to mention that Hanse 1) made a pass at Katrina during the negotiations on Terra and 2) had multiple “female companions” during the post-betrothal period he was waiting for Melissa to come of age.

I miss this, when did the show him making a pass at Katrina? 

[trboturtle]

Still doesn't stop it being creepy as hell

Just remember Romeo and Juliette weren't old enough to be in high school, let alone in love (and the mess they made of that!)

Before the Warrior trilogy, the Battletech novels were more grunt-level, most immdiate -- Carson surviving and putting together the GDL: Jamie Wolf and his Dragoons against the Combine.

The Warrior trilogy is the first time we are exposed to Battletech Universe on an interstellar state level, the first glimpse of how deep and wide the universe is. It has a cast of millions, where the forces involved are multi-regimental units invading planets, and how widespread the shadow war between the intelligence agencies is. We see rulers and generals plan and execute large military operations and the results. It shows the sweep of the universe and lays the foundation for the rest of the novels to follow.

Craig

[Mendrugo]

I miss this, when did the show him making a pass at Katrina?

The "The Gauntlet: Descent" multi-part series on BattleCorps.  They were walking on a beach at Hilton Head during a break in the negotiations on April 20, 2022.  An acolyte implied to be Sharilar Mori was watching from a window in the Archon's suite, and it's hinted that the Combine learned of the FedCom alliance through her.

[Liam's Ghost]

As I recall, even the books took a moment to mention how young Melissa was, with Mikey Hasek noting that she would just barely be an adult at their wedding.

They also seem to make it clear that Hanse viewed it as a purely political arrangement. His thoughts are on the dynasty he's creating even as Melissa is leading him off to bed for making an heir.

The "The Gauntlet: Descent" multi-part series on BattleCorps.  They were walking on a beach at Hilton Head during a break in the negotiations on April 20, 2022.  An acolyte implied to be Sharilar Mori was watching from a window in the Archon's suite, and it's hinted that the Combine learned of the FedCom alliance through her.

Something written well after the fact doesn't really apply to how Hanse was portrayed in the Warrior Trilogy, does it?

[Mendrugo]

I believe Michael Hasek speculated in the Warrior Trilogy that Hanse would've married Katrina if she could have sired him an heir.  I think the Gauntlet scene was a reference to that remark.

[roosterboy]

Before the Warrior trilogy, the Battletech novels were more grunt-level, most immdiate -- Carson surviving and putting together the GDL: Jamie Wolf and his Dragoons against the Combine.

Wolves on the Border was published after 2/3 of the Warrior Trilogy.

[Liam's Ghost]

I believe Michael Hasek speculated in the Warrior Trilogy that Hanse would've married Katrina if she could have sired him an heir.  I think the Gauntlet scene was a reference to that remark.

Could be. I don't recall that in particular, but it's been a while since I read it and I don't have the books anymore.