Record Sheets/Resculpt Discussion From Upcoming Releases Thread

[Sartris]

I know art can vary depending on the artist but the new art looks so different from the old that I wouldn't know what it was if it wasn't labeled.

which? for the life of me i have no idea what this would include

And with the way some people are the older ones become invalid. That's why I asked in something officialvwould be said for why unitscate being redesigned. They be always been that way or its an in universe marketing desicion?

it looks cooler now. there has never been an in-universe explanation for the variations in units, even the most varied artistically like the catapult or orion. some even changed entirely like the wolfhound and i really doubt anyone has been turned away because they showed up with the cone-faced sculpt.

[VhenRa]

That new Wolverine bugs me... why is the AC10 on that side...

[RifleMech]

which? for the life of me i have no idea what this would include

The early Rifleman for one. The new Flea for another. There's others.

 

it looks cooler now. there has never been an in-universe explanation for the variations in units, even the most varied artistically like the catapult or orion. some even changed entirely like the wolfhound and i really doubt anyone has been turned away because they showed up with the cone-faced sculpt.

At least is recognizable. I don't have a problem with some differences between variants, or production runs, or manufacturers. Its happened in real life, it can happen in Battletech.

I also understand the reason the unseen were retconned. Don't like it but I understand it. What's the reason for the Orions change though? Does the new art replace all the old or is it in addition too?

And it wouldn't surprise me if the cone faced sculpt was refused.

I really like the new orion being shown.  It even has the SRM in the torso!

I always moved it to the arm to match the art and fluff. Figured the stats placing it in the torso were a Comstar error.

[Scotty]

And it wouldn't surprise me if the cone faced sculpt was refused.

At your table, or somewhere else?  I've literally never seen a mini refused because it was an old sculpt.

[Sartris]

The early Rifleman for one. The new Flea for another. There's others.

if you can’t see rifleman in the primitive rifleman, we have irreconcilable differences about the issue.

I also understand the reason the unseen were retconned. Don't like it but I understand it. What's the reason for the Orions change though? Does the new art replace all the old or is it in addition too?

The Orion seems to elicit a lot of individual interpretation. It all exists simultaneously. There is no overwriting art. The unseen aren’t  used because they legally can’t be. Everything else is the rule of cool. Show off your best. But if someone buys RS: 3039u, the record sheets they print will have Duane Loose’s TRO 3025 art on the sheets. Both are equally valid because the stats are all that matters

Here’s how you know it’s not an issue at any level - they don’t go back and change art in the PDFs even though it would be ridiculously easy to do so. TPTB Have done nothing but be extremely accommodating to older players and the history of the game.

And it wouldn't surprise me if the cone faced sculpt was refused.

There is zero evidence that this has occurred in any number approaching an even rare rare level of occurrence. Has anyone who has been around for 10+ years ever seen a thread about this? Five?  I ran a force of heroscape minis from my flgs demo box once because I forgot mine at home and was complimented for my proxy choices.

I always moved it to the arm to match the art and fluff. Figured the stats placing it in the torso were a Constant error.

A error or not it was never corrected so it’s canon. Ironically stats matching art would cause the erasure you’re worried about. “Incorrect” art would have to be removed from the game to prevent confusion. The record sheets are a remarkably stable standard and have been the most pragmatic and consistent way to keep order.

[RifleMech]

At your table, or somewhere else?  I've literally never seen a mini refused because it was an old sculpt.

Not a my table. As long as we know what it is, its good. I haven't seen minis rejected but it wouldn't surprised me if it happens. I've seen and read enough about other things being refused to not be surprised if a mini was refused.

if you can’t see rifleman in the primitive rifleman, we have irreconcilable differences about the issue.

I can see the Glass Spider in the Primitive Rifleman more easily.

The Orion seems to elicit a lot of individual interpretation. It all exists simultaneously. There is no overwriting art. The unseen aren’t  used because they legally can’t be. Everything else is the rule of cool. Show off your best. But if someone buys RS: 3039u, the record sheets they print will have Duane Loose’s TRO 3025 art on the sheets. Both are equally valid because the stats are all that matters

Here’s how you know it’s not an issue at any level - they don’t go back and change art in the PDFs even though it would be ridiculously easy to do so. TPTB Have done nothing but be extremely accommodating to older players and the history of the game.

If they exist simultaneously then its cool.

There is zero evidence that this has occurred in any number approaching an even rare rare level of occurrence. Has anyone who has been around for 10+ years ever seen a thread about this? Five?  I ran a force of heroscape minis from my flgs demo box once because I forgot mine at home and was complimented for my proxy choices.

I said I wouldn't be surprised not that it does. And I said I wouldn't be surprised since I have seen other things and the players that use them denied from the table. And there were lots of threads and posts about them.

A error or not it was never corrected so it’s canon. Ironically stats matching art would cause the erasure you’re worried about. “Incorrect” art would have to be removed from the game to prevent confusion. The record sheets are a remarkably stable standard and have been the most pragmatic and consistent way to keep order.

I never said it wasn't. And going by aren't wouldn't necessarily invalidate the fluff. Nor would stats matching the fluff. And Record Sheets are one of the unintentionally worst things about Battletech. Remember above?  They're supposed to help speed up the game not refuse play.  Yet their existence has done just that. It doesn't matter that there's blanks in TM and TO, and other older Rule Books. Use one of them and you don't play. And there are lots of posts and threads about that.

[Sartris]

I can see the Glass Spider in the Primitive Rifleman more easily.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I said I wouldn't be surprised not that it does. And I said I wouldn't be surprised since I have seen other things and the players that use them denied from the table. And there were lots of threads and posts about them.

I never said it wasn't. And going by aren't wouldn't necessarily invalidate the fluff. Nor would stats matching the fluff. And Record Sheets are one of the unintentionally worst things about Battletech. Remember above?  They're supposed to help speed up the game not refuse play.  Yet their existence has done just that. It doesn't matter that there's blanks in TM and TO, and other older Rule Books. Use one of them and you don't play. And there are lots of posts and threads about that.

like i've played hundreds of games with a lot of different people and it's never been an issue. if you're going to claim something is a serious problem, you have to show that it's actually a problem. seriously, i'd love to see these threads. i want to know what's out there.

are you talking about customs? because then yes, there are lots of people who don't allow customs - because they're not canon variants printed in official products. and i don't recall that being the issue at hand? I thought it was the minis that were getting rejected.

[Lorcan Nagle]

Not a my table. As long as we know what it is, its good. I haven't seen minis rejected but it wouldn't surprised me if it happens. I've seen and read enough about other things being refused to not be surprised if a mini was refused.
 

While this is within the realms of possibility, given the... shall we say detail oriented nature of some gamers, the BattleTech rules explicitly state that the only requirements for gaming pieces are that they are sufficiently distinct that everyone can tell what each unit is, and beyond that it's up to the players what they use.

[RifleMech]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

like i've played hundreds of games with a lot of different people and it's never been an issue. if you're going to claim something is a serious problem, you have to show that it's actually a problem. seriously, i'd love to see these threads. i want to know what's out there.

are you talking about customs? because then yes, there are lots of people who don't allow customs - because they're not canon variants printed in official products. and i don't recall that being the issue at hand? I thought it was the minis that were getting rejected.

I'll let you go looking for them. But there was enough to keep me from signing up for years. It isn't just customs being banned but whole types of units, and even specific units. It is also Official Blank Record Sheets being banned. They're in the Core Rule Books but they're banned because they're not
Official Pre-generated Record Sheets.

While this is within the realms of possibility, given the... shall we say detail oriented nature of some gamers, the BattleTech rules explicitly state that the only requirements for gaming pieces are that they are sufficiently distinct that everyone can tell what each unit is, and beyond that it's up to the players what they use.

Unfortunately there are some who misinterpret the rule of "Don't be a _ _ _ _!" as "Be a _ _ _ _!"

[Sartris]

I'll let you go looking for them. But there was enough to keep me from signing up for years. It isn't just customs being banned but whole types of units, and even specific units. It is also Official Blank Record Sheets being banned. They're in the Core Rule Books but they're banned because they're not
Official Pre-generated Record Sheets

Burden of proof is on the person making the claims do I’ll lean on what I’ve seen here and elsewhere over the past ten plus years. This is also a different claim than you were making before - that minis  are  rejected because of art conflicts.

Now you’re talking about hand filled record sheets (which I haven’t seen in the wild ever and I started in 96. This has to be the... fringe of cases), and unit types banned - which yes, people do. That’s no different than people avoiding entries parts of the timeline. Just because I have dark age record sheets doesn’t entitle me to come to someone else’s table who is playing 4th SW. if the organizer says no protos, you have to find something else to run or a different group I guess

[RifleMech]

Burden of proof is on the person making the claims do I’ll lean on what I’ve seen here and elsewhere over the past ten plus years. This is also a different claim than you were making before - that minis  are  rejected because of art conflicts.

Now you’re talking about hand filled record sheets (which I haven’t seen in the wild ever and I started in 96. This has to be the... fringe of cases), and unit types banned - which yes, people do. That’s no different than people avoiding entries parts of the timeline. Just because I have dark age record sheets doesn’t entitle me to come to someone else’s table who is playing 4th SW. if the organizer says no protos, you have to find something else to run or a different group I guess

I've seen and read more than enough hate to want to go looking for it. I also never said they were. I said it wouldn't surprise me if it happened. There are people that detail oriented.

I started in 1990 and still use blank RS now. I'm surprised they're not used more often since RS haven't kept up with the TROs.

I also don't mean butting in on specific era games. I'm not going to bring in Clans to a Succession War. I also don't bring out customs without clearing it. But being told I can use a J Edgar but not a Savannah Master isn't  right. I also mean being flat out told only pre-generated RS were allowed. That I'm only allowed to use pre-generated RS.

[beachhead1985]

The early Rifleman for one. The new Flea for another. There's others.


I always moved it to the arm to match the art and fluff. Figured the stats placing it in the torso were a Comstar error.

The first Riflemen were fluffed at 40 Tons, it looking weird didn't shock me; I liked that they bridged the G------------------A------------------------P between the original and the WHATWERETHEYTHINKING Project Phoenix version with the retrotech version, however. The Flea just baffles the hell out of me. And the later Ostscouts...especially after the Project Phoenix version looked to reasonable...why?

But yeah; I move mine too. It's funny when you look at the RS and you see in the variants where they have and have-not followed the fluff vs the other RS. Like most of the Orion Variants put the SRMs in the arms. Why? It's no more established that they aren't also torso-mounted, but hey; whatever, right? I think about half the Thunderbolts flip the missiles between Torsos too.

But they can change things when they want to. What if I show up with my original 3050 Commando recordsheets when the Artemis IV for the Centre-Torso mounted SRM-6 was located in the head? That was changed when they realized it was the only mech set-up like that, but it used to be the one exception to the ArtIV being in the same location as the launcher. There was really no need to do that, but it goes to show that things can change.

[RifleMech]

The first Riflemen were fluffed at 40 Tons, it looking weird didn't shock me; I liked that they bridged the G------------------A------------------------P between the original and the WHATWERETHEYTHINKING Project Phoenix version with the retrotech version, however. The Flea just baffles the hell out of me. And the later Ostscouts...especially after the Project Phoenix version looked to reasonable...why?

But yeah; I move mine too. It's funny when you look at the RS and you see in the variants where they have and have-not followed the fluff vs the other RS. Like most of the Orion Variants put the SRMs in the arms. Why? It's no more established that they aren't also torso-mounted, but hey; whatever, right? I think about half the Thunderbolts flip the missiles between Torsos too.

But they can change things when they want to. What if I show up with my original 3050 Commando recordsheets when the Artemis IV for the Centre-Torso mounted SRM-6 was located in the head? That was changed when they realized it was the only mech set-up like that, but it used to be the one exception to the ArtIV being in the same location as the launcher. There was really no need to do that, but it goes to show that things can change.

I knew the Primitive Rifleman would look different but I recognized the Phoenix Rifleman right away. With the Primitive, it was "That's a Rifleman?"  Not that all the Phoenix Designs were recognizable.

I wonder why change it just because its the only exception? It also brings up another problem. Which Official Record Sheets are legal? As for the 3050 Commando, show me the rule allowing the Atremis in the head and you're good.  Legal once is good enough for me. :thumbsup:

[Lorcan Nagle]

Now you’re talking about hand filled record sheets (which I haven’t seen in the wild ever and I started in 96. This has to be the... fringe of cases)

My first few games were with hand-filled record sheets.  When all you have is the 2nd edition box set, access to a photocopier and no internet, you make do.  The first record sheet book I got access to was the one in Reinforcements 2, so even then I only had sheets for the primary variants of the 3050 designs... Dark days.

[Feenix74]

Same for me, back in 1992, my first few games were me playing against myself in 1v1 and 2v2 games with just a Battletech A Game of Armored Combat 2nd edition box set (which I still have in good condition). Photocopied the blank record sheet that came and used the stats from the technical readout pamphlet in the box set to create record sheets for the unseen. Used the cardboard standees.

A few months later I got the Battletech Reinforcements Battlemech Record Sheets 3025 (which I still have in good condition). My collection of Battletech stuff has grown a bit from there.

[Karasu]

As a note on the changing artwork:

this is a VW Beetle

and so is this
[spoiler=Large][/spoiler]

And then there are minis.  (The car, I mean).

[Feenix74]

I agree with you Karasu:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45307.msg1044405#msg1044405

[Sartris]

My first few games were with hand-filled record sheets.  When all you have is the 2nd edition box set, access to a photocopier and no internet, you make do.  The first record sheet book I got access to was the one in Reinforcements 2, so even then I only had sheets for the primary variants of the 3050 designs... Dark days.

Yeah I was referring to someone showing up for a game in 2019 with them in order to concoct some crisis of sheet legitimacy out of the the most fringe of cases

[Lorcan Nagle]

Yeah I was referring to someone showing up for a game in 2019 with them in order to concoct some crisis of sheet legitimacy out of the the most fringe of cases

Of course.  It helps that the starter box comes with pre-filled in record sheets, of course