Map Pack Errata?

[Bison AIs]

Enjoying the new map pack but came across some things. Couldn't find an errata section for maps so I'm posting here...

On the "lakes" map (I think):
0713: Has no marking for woods type or level (it's clearly level 2 but ambiguously light woods).
0606: Hex art clearly matches the art for every other depth 0 hex on that map but it's marked as depth 1. We played as labeled, but it's visually very odd and a route through the lake at that point would make sense for opening the map a little in the same way that there's a depth 0 route through the other lake...

Also, to make sure — does depth 0 water have any effect at all on Battlemechs?
 

[Empyrus]

Also, to make sure — does depth 0 water have any effect at all on Battlemechs?

I don't think it has. Doesn't seem it has any effect on any unit except naval units cannot move in depth 0 water.

[Daryk]

Can infantry traverse Level 0 Water?  I'm not entirely sure...

[Empyrus]

Can infantry traverse Level 0 Water?  I'm not entirely sure...

TW terrain restriction table says "naval" only. Depth 1 has infantry as restricted unit.

Depth 0 is basically shallow enough to ford without issues.

[Daryk]

It's definitely less than 2m deep then...

[Frabby]

At my gaming table, lvl 0 water is still water which means +1 MP for entering the hex and no running allowed for 'Mechs. It would't flood a breached section though, not even the legs, and doesn't cover a prone 'Mech.
May be worth requesting a clarification in the Rules subforum.

[Empyrus]

At my gaming table, lvl 0 water is still water which means +1 MP for entering the hex and no running allowed for 'Mechs. It would't flood a breached section though, not even the legs, and doesn't cover a prone 'Mech.
May be worth requesting a clarification in the Rules subforum.

BMM pg 20 says:

’Mechs cannot enter a Depth 1 or deeper water hex while running

Pg 19 has water details, it also notes that only depth 1 or greater requires PSR.
As such, i'd say depth 0 water is just... well, a hex. Costs 1 MP, has no restrictions beyond naval vessels, acts like generic hex otherwise.

EDIT I really, really like BMM when it comes to explaining rules. It is pretty damn clear most of the time.

[Frabby]

Enlightening. Thanks for finding this. I'm away from my books right now - does BMM say anything about the +1 MP for entering a "Water Hex" applying (or not applying) to lvl zero water hexes?

[Empyrus]

’Mechs entering water hexes must pay:
  % the base 1 MP for entering a hex
  % plus the MP cost for entering water of that depth (1 MP if Depth 1, 3 MP if Depth 2 or deeper)
  % plus the cost for any level change

Basically a depth 0 hex is a ground hex for all practical purposes, basically a cosmetic thing to define a ford or a place where water exists in substantial yet tactically irrelevant amounts.

EDIT Duh lol, i forgot to check The Battlefield section which details each hex type. Depth 0 water has no LOS/MP/PSR/TMM modifiers.

[Frabby]

Thanks for looking it up for me!
And... seems like I've been doing it wrong unti now. Good to know. (Though the question remains what purpose a lvl0 water hex has when it is indistinguishable from an open hex - does it allow naval vehicles to move through, does it prevent wheeled/tracked vehicles from entering? There must be something.)

[Lorcan Nagle]

It could be there to clarify hexes which have water in them to be visually consistent or pleasing, but the designers wanted to be essentially clear.  Because if you don't explicitly tag a hex then you're open to ambiguity.

[Bison AIs]

Away from my books but... maybe environmental conditions have an impact? This could make chaos campaign mission options more transformative. I’d look under heavy rain or similar...

[Bison AIs]

Ah ha!
Tac-ops, pg. 59: "TORRENTIAl DOWNPOUR.. all Depth 0 water hexes become swamp hexes (see p. 51)."

[mbear]

It could be there to clarify hexes which have water in them to be visually consistent or pleasing, but the designers wanted to be essentially clear.  Because if you don't explicitly tag a hex then you're open to ambiguity.

And it could represent pretty ponds and water features that are put in place by landscape designers. (Well, not likely in the example pics, but maybe on city maps.) Or floodplains that aren't flooded but still have water in them.

[NeonKnight]

Hey, If you have the MAP PACK, the insert/cover folder thingy, lists for Water:

WATER (DEPTH 0)
Line of sight (LOS): No effect
MP Modifier: None
PSR Modifier: None
Attack Target Number Modifer: None


Compare to:

WATER (DEPTH 1)
Line of sight (LOS): No effect
MP Modifier: +1; level change costs are not included. See Movement in Water, p. 19 BM, or Underwater Movement, p. 56, TW
PSR Modifier: -1
Attack Target Number Modifier: None, but it provides partial cover to 'Mech standing within it (see Partial Cover, p. 26 BM, or p. 102, TW).


In other words, the cover-flap has ALL the Hex types coverd for you ;) All the Buildings, the CLEAR, Pavement, Rough, Water, and Woods terrain.

[Bison AIs]

Hey, If you have the MAP PACK, the insert/cover folder thingy, lists for Water:

Yea, I saw that, and I'm glad that's in there, but I wanted to ask because (1) There are errors on the map itself, so it didn't seem impossible for there to be a typo in the rules on the slip, especially when (2) the included rules amount to 'no effect' which is a little weird. 

[nckestrel]

It was intentional. Water (depth 1+) are death traps. They wanted to have more water visually without blocking off large areas of the map. Depth 0 water allowed them to do both.   It’s a wet clear hex :)

[NeonKnight]

Yea, I saw that, and I'm glad that's in there, but I wanted to ask because (1) There are errors on the map itself, so it didn't seem impossible for there to be a typo in the rules on the slip, especially when (2) the included rules amount to 'no effect' which is a little weird.

As part of the map team, it was felt to include the DEPTH 0 hexes to allow for some units to be able to uitlize the maps easier. I.E. Without the DEPTH 0 hexes, vehicles (except hover) and infantry are extremely limited in where they can get to on the maps, making them 'less fun'.

Additionally, it is way easier to say at the start of a game:

"All the Depth 0 hexes are actually Depth 1"

than it is to say:

"Ok, hex 1234 and 2315, and 5110 are all Depth 0 so the tanks can cross".


Finally, hard to be an Error on the map when the insert specifically calls it out ;)

but for Completion:

BATTLEMECH MANUAL:

Page 60

TOTAL WARFARE:

Page 32 talks about Water Depths:

WATER
Water hexes are covered by streams, rivers, swamps, ponds or
lakes. A water hex is defined by depth (see Level Change, p. 48).
Depth 0 water is very shallow, only ankle-deep on a ’Mech, and
represents terrain such as streams, swamps or shallow ponds.
Depth 1 water is six meters deep, or one level below ground level
(about waist-high on a ’Mech). Depth 2 water is twelve meters
deep, enough to just cover a ’Mech. Depth 3 water is eighteen
meters deep, and so on. Even when a shallow stream fills only
part of a hex, that entire hex is considered a water hex.

Page 52, Movement Cost Table list DEPTH 0 water, and states the only prohibited unit is Naval

[Bison AIs]

Don't get me wrong, I have no issue with the inclusion of depth 0 or the notion that depth 0 has no effect on Battlemechs—there's something weirdly satisfying in the act of running a mech through shallow water that it just doesn't GAF about : D   There's also a kinda 'gotcha' that I also enjoy — if you're not careful, it's not impossible to overlook that those depth 0 hexes are throughways; I used that to surprise-rush a crippled assault that had planted on one of those islands. V. Satisfying.

As part of the map team, it was felt to include the DEPTH 0 hexes to allow for some units to be able to uitlize the maps easier. I.E. Without the DEPTH 0 hexes, vehicles (except hover) and infantry are extremely limited in where they can get to on the maps, making them 'less fun'... Additionally, it is way easier to say at the start of a game: "All the Depth 0 hexes are actually Depth 1"

Totally. I think the lake map would be less fun for even mechs without those depth 0's, and I totally appreciate that it provides an easy way to bend the terrain a little for a scenario. The gameplay value of the depth 0's is why I suspected that the hex at 0606  labeled "depth 1" and that visually looks like a depth 0 should maybe be labeled "depth 0".

Finally, hard to be an Error on the map when the insert specifically calls it out ;)

Err... I don't know what you're saying when you say "hard to be an error on the map". There is literally a hex on that map that is missing both an elevation and a woods-type label. And one of the water hexes that looks like all the other depth 0 hexes is labeled depth 1. (See attached images in initial post.)

I've only played on a few of the maps so far, but have enjoyed them visually and topographically, so I appreciate the work you've done. Given that you worked on this project though, it'd be really swell if you could clarify if (1) the unlabeled hex should be level 2 light woods and (2) if the aforementioned depth 1 should really be depth 0.   

[Bison AIs]

It was intentional. Water (depth 1+) are death traps. They wanted to have more water visually without blocking off large areas of the map. Depth 0 water allowed them to do both.   It’s a wet clear hex :)

I think I see where there is some miscommunication. I am not asking if "depth 0" is a misprint of "depth 1".

I'm asking (1) if the specific hex noted in the attached image in the initial post should be "depth 0" and NOT "depth 1" and (2) if there were additional rules regarding depth 0 that I was missing. I'm fairly clear now on (2), there are no additional rules that I am missing. I am still unclear on point (1).

[nckestrel]

I don’t have any knowledge of point 1, sorry.

[NeonKnight]

I think I see where there is some miscommunication. I am not asking if "depth 0" is a misprint of "depth 1".

I'm asking (1) if the specific hex noted in the attached image in the initial post should be "depth 0" and NOT "depth 1" and (2) if there were additional rules regarding depth 0 that I was missing. I'm fairly clear now on (2), there are no additional rules that I am missing. I am still unclear on point (1).

Ah, ok, I see what you mean in that image...yes, visually it probably should be a Depth 0 hex, unfortunately, it is labeled as Depth 1.

I'll mention it to folks, but not sure if we will see a change, likely easier going forward to make it a depth 1 coloration than to make it a depth 0, as at the end of the day, I'm not sure how hard to make those sorts of changes.

And I guess I missed the ERROR part as I was thinking you were asking if ALL the depth 0 hexes were in error.

I know with the new maps the underlying idea is to have a map be as visually informative without the need to look at the TEXT on the map, i.e. Light Woods is visually different from Heavy woods. Levels roughly follow the hexes, so you know if you are on the level or not. And of course, Depth 0 is different from Depth 1, versus Depth 2, etc, etc.

[NeonKnight]

Hmmm....just finished look at the rest of the maps in that set...and found a couple other errors :(


Rolling Hills #2:

1010 – No TEXT, should be LEVEL 1 LIGHT


STREAMS

HEX 0610 – Should be Rough based on other maps artwork.

[Bison AIs]

Hmmm....just finished look at the rest of the maps in that set...and found a couple other errors :(

Yea... maybe some edits before the next reprint... maybe some stickers in the mean time...

[NeonKnight]

I don;t make the actual maps, just a part of a group that helps design and playtest.

[Bison AIs]

I don;t make the actual maps, just a part of a group that helps design and playtest.

I gotcha, just making a general statement.

[NeonKnight]

Yea... maybe some edits before the next reprint... maybe some stickers in the mean time...

I'm Hoping the First, the second...well...not sure how CGL would do, but I have emailed the parties at CGL in charge of the maps.

[Daryk]

Then you, sir, are a hero of the first order!  :thumbsup:

[Bison AIs]

Another on the map with a base.
A whole strip of hexes labeled level 1.
The ramps to the base appear inconsistently labeled too—half are level 1 and half are ground level. 

[Azakael]

Another on the map with a base.
A whole strip of hexes labeled level 1.
The ramps to the base appear inconsistently labeled too—half are level 1 and half are ground level.

I think that represents that the ramp is a much lighter grade. Otherwise, we'd have Level .25, Level .5, Level .75, Level 1.

[worktroll]

Exactly.

And we needed to put the (2 levels of walls) on top of a L1 base, once someone noticed 'Mechs can walk or run over 2 level rises ...

[Bison AIs]

I think that represents that the ramp is a much lighter grade. Otherwise, we'd have Level .25, Level .5, Level .75, Level 1.

Clarification: there are four separate ramps (if I remember correctly). Two of them are labeled level 1, two of two of them are not labeled at all (I.e. level 0). I’ll take a pic when I get home. But all the ramps visually appear effectively the same: one hex-length jaunts from concrete footprint to ground with a little bit of a shadow commensurate with a 1 level rise in elevation. However, the ramps are not labeled the same.

Edit:See post and image below for exact details.

[Bison AIs]

Exactly.

And we needed to put the (2 levels of walls) on top of a L1 base, once someone noticed 'Mechs can walk or run over 2 level rises ...

Please see the picture I attached in the post you are responding to.
I understand the concrete footprint of the base is level 1, but there is a swath of grassy area contiguous with the rest of the level 0 parts of the map that is covered in level 1 labels.

[Bison AIs]

I think that represents that the ramp is a much lighter grade. Otherwise, we'd have Level .25, Level .5, Level .75, Level 1.

Aside: Trivia: The original Solaris VII boxset had “ramps” with specific rules that nullified elevation change MP costs when traveling along the ramp.

(I am not saying that I thought the ramps on the new map were these kinds of “ramps”. )

[Bison AIs]

[ Accidental repost because phone.]

[Bison AIs]

I think that represents that the ramp is a much lighter grade.

Exactly.

Please see attached file.

The pair of hexes at 0716 and 0816 (top left pic) have almost the exact same visual language and context (a two hex straight jaunt off a level one elevation to the ground) as the pair of hexes at 0203 and 0303 (bottom left), but the two pairs have different elevation levels.

The map's fifth, different, ramp is included in the file (right) for completion and more context.

It'd be nice to have an informed confirmation that these are labeled correctly or not. Again, please look at the pictures.

Worktroll, could you confirm that your response to my note about the questionable level-1 grass area is indeed about the grassy part of the map, outlined in red, in the photo I included in my earlier post?

[Azakael]

Yeah. It does look like 716 and 816 should be level 1.