Are NARC Beacons obsolete or do they still have their niche uses?

[brother elf]

It always amazes me that there was never even a boondoggle to attempt to attach beacons at long range.   

I imagine someone trying to launch beacons out of a mortar to saturate an area, or something ridiculous like that :)

Thunder-NARC as alternate Arrow IV ammo?   :D

[Daryk]

Can somebody jog my brain? There was something non-obvious that also counted as comms equipment, and I can't remember what it was. (Dual Cockpit Command Console?)

BattleMechs, Combat Vehicles and Fighters have the equivalent of one ton of Communications Equipment included in their cockpit or control tonnage (Tech Manual, page 212).  Small Craft and DropShips have the equivalent of 3 tons.

That really makes me wonder about the ARAD write up...

[Empyrus]

The rule change that added communications equipment as default to cockpits causes some mayhem (originally they didn't have this, it was to correct another issue i think). The above mentioned ARAD missiles are a good example, as things stand now, they are incredibly good missiles, since they receive -1 to hit against 'Mechs always now, and works as Narc-equipped missiles as well.
Another example would be how designs that were designed with 3 tons of communications equipment and the corresponding abilities now having more abilities.

Probably should go make a rules question or errata report on this, now that i think of it.
If the ARAD missile requirement would be changed to "2 or more tons of Communications Equipment", this issue would vanish, i really don't think it is intended.

[truetanker]

Thunder-NARC as alternate Arrow IV ammo?   :D

Plaster them like a FASCAM round?

TT

[(SMD)MadCow]

Rats.  Only have TW, not tac ops, so don't have rules for them..  Are they LRM specialty munitions or can SRM's also have them?

SRMs and MMLs can use them too.

[Luciora]

This is very much an Oprah meme.

Plaster them like a FASCAM round?

TT

[Sir Chaos]

It always amazes me that there was never even a boondoggle to attempt to attach beacons at long range.   

I imagine someone trying to launch beacons out of a mortar to saturate an area, or something ridiculous like that :)

Command-detonated minefields consisting of single-shot NARC launchers?

Arrow IV missiles that release NARC beacons on every hex in their area of effect instead of exploding (kinda like an ICBM with MIRV warheads)?

[Empyrus]

Command-detonated minefields consisting of single-shot NARC launchers?

Arrow IV missiles that release NARC beacons on every hex in their area of effect instead of exploding (kinda like an ICBM with MIRV warheads)?

Hanse Davion's corpse just started rolling in its grave, me thinks. The idea of Capellans doing this...

[garhkal]

SRMs and MMLs can use them too.

OOHH..  Next time i play, i might ask if i can use ARAM missiles for some mechs, to counter enemies using ECM!

[SCC]

ARAD and NARC work together anyway, and you need a NARC to prevent to-hit penalties against a non-electronics carrying unit.

Actually I don't think it works that unless there's been an errata or ruling that I've missed I don't think it works like that. RAW says that ARAD get the Narc bonuses but also suffer penalties when the unit doesn't have one of the listed system, so it will get the Narc bonus but also suffer those penalties, very weird I know.

[Empyrus]

Checking TacOps and its errata for ARAD munitions:

-ARAD vs unit without beacon, and no electronic emissions: +2 penalty to hit, -2 cluster hit penalty.
-ARAD vs unit without beacon, and electronic emissions: -1 to hit bonus from emissions, +1 cluster hit bonus from emissions.
-ARAD vs unit with electronic emissions, and/or Narc beacon (Narc benefit applies even under ECM field): -1 to hit bonus (does not stack with iNarc beacon bonus) from emissions, +1 cluster hit bonus from emissions, +2 cluster hit bonus from Narc/iNarc beacon, for net +3 cluster modifier.

Acceptable electronic emission sources:
Active Probes, ECM systems, Artemis systems, C3 systems, Blue Shield, or 3.5 tons or more communications equipment, OR just the Narc beacon itself per TO errata (but iNarc to-hit bonus doesn't stack here, so -1 to hit bonus only). Any single one is enough, more doesn't give greater benefit.

[(SMD)MadCow]

Actually I don't think it works that unless there's been an errata or ruling that I've missed I don't think it works like that. RAW says that ARAD get the Narc bonuses but also suffer penalties when the unit doesn't have one of the listed system, so it will get the Narc bonus but also suffer those penalties, very weird I know.

RAW they're upgraded NARC missiles and would incur no penalty fired at a NARCed target.

[garhkal]

Checking TacOps and its errata for ARAD munitions:

-ARAD vs unit without beacon, and no electronic emissions: +2 penalty to hit, -2 cluster hit penalty.
-ARAD vs unit without beacon, and electronic emissions: -1 to hit bonus from emissions, +1 cluster hit bonus from emissions.
-ARAD vs unit with electronic emissions, and/or Narc beacon (Narc benefit applies even under ECM field): -1 to hit bonus (does not stack with iNarc beacon bonus) from emissions, +1 cluster hit bonus from emissions, +2 cluster hit bonus from Narc/iNarc beacon, for net +3 cluster modifier.

Acceptable electronic emission sources:
Active Probes, ECM systems, Artemis systems, C3 systems, Blue Shield, or 3.5 tons or more communications equipment, OR just the Narc beacon itself per TO errata (but iNarc to-hit bonus doesn't stack here, so -1 to hit bonus only). Any single one is enough, more doesn't give greater benefit.

Sweet.  I take it they suffer the same half shots per ton other spec ammo does..

[Alsadius]

Sweet.  I take it they suffer the same half shots per ton other spec ammo does..

Nope. Their penalty is the -2 to hit against non-radiating sources, not ammo quantity.

[marauder648]

I would argue that in Clan use the NARC beacon would be utterly abandoned after the formation of the Clans and their hegemony over the Kerensky cluster and Homeworlds with their codes of battle becoming more and more regimented.  The NARC encourages and helps with concentrated fire, something utterly anethma to the Clans way of thinking for the most part. So they'd simply either not use it or have it used on some VERY rare configs on the lightest of Mechs.

[Empyrus]

Nope. Their penalty is the -2 to hit against non-radiating sources, not ammo quantity.

You misread what he wrote.

ARAD ammo does not suffer from halved ammo.

Indeed, most special munitions come with standard ammo loads.
EDIT Of TacOps included special missiles, Acid, Harpoon, Heat Seeking, Tandem Charge, and Thunder-Augmented have halved ammo loads.

I would argue that in Clan use the NARC beacon would be utterly abandoned after the formation of the Clans and their hegemony over the Kerensky cluster and Homeworlds with their codes of battle becoming more and more regimented.  The NARC encourages and helps with concentrated fire, something utterly anethma to the Clans way of thinking for the most part. So they'd simply either not use it or have it used on some VERY rare configs on the lightest of Mechs.

Nah, they didn't abandon it really.
For one thing, they made a Clan version. Had they abandoned it, it would've gone the way of NSS and CLPS. Heck, they even use TAG and Arrow IVs! Winning is important to them.
For another, there are few Omni configs with Narc. No, it is not common, but it exists. 5 of the original 16 Omnis actually have Narc configs: Summoner B, Kit Fox D, Warhawk B, Hellbringer A, Stormcrow D.

The Narc actually works pretty well in formal trials between two participants. You hit the opponent with Narc pod, then pour missiles on them, as Aidan not-yet-Pryde did. Evidently the opponent deserves that, as they couldn't avoid the pod in the first place!

In open fields, i figure the Narc is less popular among the Clans due to its nature. Still, winning is important and if the unit commander requires it to be used, it will be used. Same as TAG and Arrow IVs.

[Alsadius]

You misread what he wrote.

ARAD ammo does not suffer from halved ammo.

Indeed, most special munitions come with standard ammo loads.
EDIT Of TacOps included special missiles, Acid, Harpoon, Heat Seeking, Tandem Charge, and Thunder-Augmented have halved ammo loads.

I didn't misread him, I was disagreeing with him. He assumed they have halved ammo capacity(because that's the usual way to balance specialty ammo with no drawbacks, like Precision), but ammo with meaningful drawbacks, like ARAD, doesn't tend to have halved ammo loads. And, sure enough, ARAD ammo gets the same ammo per ton as standard munitions.

[garhkal]

Thanks.  And yes i did misunderstand, cause i thought it was common for specialty ammo to always be halved in load per ton.. 

[mbear]

It always amazes me that there was never even a boondoggle to attempt to attach beacons at long range.   

I imagine someone trying to launch beacons out of a mortar to saturate an area, or something ridiculous like that :)

Only problem with the mortar idea is that you'd definitely hit the ground if you missed, so your missiles will churn up grass like nobody's business but miss the 'Mechs. :\

Someone mentioned using a NARC pod as a replacement for an SRM-6, and I think that might be a good idea. Especially in the War of 3039, where experimental equipment was coming from the NAIS and ComStar/DCMS. I could see a Pegasus tank or two being equipped with a NARC and a fire lance being supplied with NARC-compatible missiles.

As for the cost or availability of the NARC compatible ammo, you're basically talking about a little tiny pod that basically yells "HEY, HERE I AM! OVER HERE! SHOOT THIS WAY!" on an electronic frequency. So if you tune warheads to listen to that frequency, Hilarity Ensues.

[massey]

I'd suggest the Clans use NARCs to fight bandits.  Not every combat with them is a series of honor duels.  Pirates are apparently a fairly common problem in Clan space.  It makes sense, such a rigid society that "washes out" otherwise capable warriors at a very high rate.  Not every guy who fails his Trial of Position is going to be okay with being a laborer for the rest of his life.  So Joe the dock worker (who has been through mech training and everything) just slips away one day, hitches a ride on some shuttle with some forged identity papers, and a month later he's piloting a mech and living out his warrior fantasies.

Against opponents like that, the Clans don't use the honor system.  If you presume that the bandits are going to use gear from some Exodus-era storage facility, they may not have lots of modern ECM equipment.  NARC would be great against those units.  For the Clans, Artemis IV is not that great.  Clan missile launchers are very light, and a 1 ton Artemis system is usually worse than just increasing the size of the launcher.  Which would you rather have, a 2.5 ton LRM-10 plus Artemis, or a 3.5 ton LRM-15?  But with NARC, you can get the same bonus without spending any weight.

I would guess that the Dark Caste/bandit route is actually a very common path for many people.  Think about the number of people in Aidan's sibko.  They start with dozens of people, and then eventually only one person actually passes the trial.  Aidan gets another chance, because he's the hero, but what about all the others?  You think everyone was happy with where they got reassigned?  Nobody was left unfulfilled?  While it's officially frowned upon, I think certain cynical Clan leaders might even be glad to have it as an outlet.  They could take a "look the other way" attitude as people who aren't fitting in find a way to make themselves scarce.  Instead of filling up your prisons, they provide your warriors with an opportunity for cheap target practice.  Not every fight needs to be between Clans.  Sometimes it's helpful to just kick the crap out of disorganized rabble in older machines.

[Hellraiser]

Someone mentioned using a NARC pod as a replacement for an SRM-6, and I think that might be a good idea. Especially in the War of 3039, where experimental equipment was coming from the NAIS and ComStar/DCMS. I could see a Pegasus tank or two being equipped with a NARC and a fire lance being supplied with NARC-compatible missiles.

That was me & that is the kind of situation I'm talking about.   From 3039 to 3055 or so I could easily see NARC being more effective for a company than Artemis as you have soooo many more L1 platforms still in use.
Same goes for SLDF era where house units didn't have as many fun toys as the SLDF & they didn't have 100% upgraded units.
Heck, by 3067 its STILL more effective for your militia/periphery grade units. 

I really would like to see a canon NARC variant for just about every double SRM6 unit out there.
Pegasus, Plainsman, Cavalry
Javelin, Crusader, Shogun, Whitworth, Trebuchet, Swayback, even the Commando isn't a BAD option.

[Iceweb]

Only problem with the mortar idea is that you'd definitely hit the ground if you missed, so your missiles will churn up grass like nobody's business but miss the 'Mechs. :\

I thought about that and figured that would be a good first step in a boondoggle. 
Then I tired to think about how can we tell a target apart from the ground. 

Simply put Mechs in general are metal (magnetic) hot, and go fast. 
A few sensors for a magnetic field, temperature, and accelerometers should give a nice number over 90% certainty if you are are on a target you want to home in on. 
I'm sure that actual engineers would have even more ideas on how to tell if you were on the ground or a war machine. 

If they can go faster than light they can figure this out....

[Sir Chaos]

I thought about that and figured that would be a good first step in a boondoggle. 
Then I tired to think about how can we tell a target apart from the ground. 

Simply put Mechs in general are metal (magnetic) hot, and go fast. 
A few sensors for a magnetic field, temperature, and accelerometers should give a nice number over 90% certainty if you are are on a target you want to home in on. 
I'm sure that actual engineers would have even more ideas on how to tell if you were on the ground or a war machine. 

If they can go faster than light they can figure this out....

How do the NARC beacons stick to the target? If they´re somehow able to tell if they´re sticking to something metallic, they should be able to selectively only turn on in that case.

I mean, there has got to be SOMETHING - after all, somehow the NARC beacons we already that miss their targets do not cause any problems of that sort.

[Sartris]

sentient magnets - the height of star league technology

i imagine a missed shot flying off into the woods and sticking to some dude's RV

[mbear]

How do the NARC beacons stick to the target? If they´re somehow able to tell if they´re sticking to something metallic, they should be able to selectively only turn on in that case.

I mean, there has got to be SOMETHING - after all, somehow the NARC beacons we already that miss their targets do not cause any problems of that sort.

Use a supercapacitor to strike an arc between the narc pod and the armor. That would weld the pod to the armor.

[Iceweb]

Well since the Narc launcher is not indirect I always assumed that one of the fail safes was an on off switch that the pilot triggered based on his mark I eyeball. 

That would explain why pods don't have any effect the round they are fired and only are useful in later rounds. 

On the other hand with the amount of missiles that miss even with all this superior tracking technology badly placed pods all over the place could explain some stuff also.

[grimlock1]

Well since the Narc launcher is not indirect I always assumed that one of the fail safes was an on off switch that the pilot triggered based on his mark I eyeball. 

That would explain why pods don't have any effect the round they are fired and only are useful in later rounds. 

On the other hand with the amount of missiles that miss even with all this superior tracking technology badly placed pods all over the place could explain some stuff also.

There are a couple of ways to do it, and the best method is probably all of them, in a sequence. You have a good fix on the range to target, and you know the missile's speed, so you know the flight time.  If the beacon doesn't start transmitting within say +/- 0.5 seconds of calculated impact, then reject it.  If it does connect within the right time frame, then compare absolute coordinates of the beacon to the absolute coordinates of the firing solution. Is the beacon transmitting from the location I wanted it to go?  If so, great.  If not, then look for relative motion. If the beacon is moving, it's attached to something.