Author Topic: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.  (Read 9397 times)

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Avatar/Liberator Class Cruiser

Length – 855 meters
Displacement – 830,000 tons
Crew Compliment – 380/539

Background

With the Aegis class getting long in the tooth the SLDF put out a requirement for a replacement heavy cruiser that was to succeed the old Terran workhorse.  The accepted design was considerably larger, 80,000 tons heavier and 130 meters longer than the Aegis, with a correspondingly larger crew requirement as well.  But it seems that little expense was spared with the new cruiser design, not only was she considerably larger, but featured heavier armour and most impressively, a Lithium Fusion battery which gave the ship considerable strategic mobility, albeit at a considerable price hike.  The ship also featured new engines and reactors, capable of pushing her along at a sustained 1.5g of thrust and doing short 2.5g sprints making her accelerate quicker and thanks to a considerable increase in the number of RCS thrusters and their design being improved over the years, she was more agile, able to twist and roll far better than the Aegis.

This also let the new Avatar class keep up with ships like the Farragut or Essex classes and the addition of the Lithium fusion battery gave the ship far more strategic flexibility as at the time of her introduction, few WarShips mounted the new battery.   With over 1,200 tons of armour the ship didn’t scrimp on protection and firepower was not weak by any standards either.

Unlike many Hegemony designed ships prior, the Avatar would feature a large mix of energy weapons unlike the largely ballistic dependent Aegis, Dart and Monsoon classes.  Indeed, the Avatar seems to have at least been partially inspired by the older Baron class destroyer which relied on large clusters of 35cm lasers for its main punch.  The Avatar took this example and expanded on it.  Clusters of 35cm lasers dotted the cruisers sides and these were joined by double or quadruple mounts for fearsome heavy naval particle cannons.  Additional firepower came from paired NAC-20 and 30 mountings whilst a dozen Killer Whale launch tubes dotted the ships hull.  She also had a score of 55cm lasers for firing at bow on targets, again supported by a quartet of Heavy particle cannons.  There was even a point defence battery, small clusters of LRM-20’s each launcher equipped with Artemis, and these formed a terminal anti-fighter defence. 

The Avatar’s aerospace compliment was just as impressive.  Six DropShip collars (three on her spine, three along her keel) made the ship very flexible, able to carry a small invasion force if needed, whilst 24 fighters could be berthed onboard.  Perhaps the only oversight is the complete lack of Small Craft, but you could replace fighters with them if needs be.
Onboard security was also augmented by the 25 Marines that could be embarked making the ship a very formidable one in all aspects.

Cruisers serve many roles, the British used them from acting as Colonial gunboats, to merchant escorts, to scouts and to cruiser killers.  The Avatar seems to have been designed as a cruiser killer and with its Lithium fusion battery and large DropShip compliment would also allow her to react quickly to any attack or sudden crisis where you might need a WarShip and ground troops to make sure that a neighbour does not try anything, or if Pirates or raiders needed to be hunted down and destroyed.  But this energy heavy mix of weapons and a then new and as yet not quite fully tested battery system also seem to have been the classes biggest weakness.

Whilst heavily armed and armoured, as well as fast and capable of carrying a large number of DropShips, the Avatar class was plagued with electronic glitches, from brownouts to full on power shorts of critical and non-critical systems alike.  This seemed to mirror the Cameron class that would come out more than a hundred years later and although we don’t know of any disasters that affected the Avatar class, twitchy power systems are something you don’t want when your main weapons are energy based and you could be in combat and suddenly loose power to not just weapons but entire sections of the ship.

Another flaw of the Avatar was its cooling system.  Unlike the much later Sovetskii Soyuz class where the designers forgot to mount the guns before installing enough heatsinks that a Gargoyle Prime would think it was a tad excessive, the Avatar was very under-sinked and if a Captain dared fire a full broadside, the resultant heat surge would easily overwhelm the ships cooling systems and potentially risk the ship going out of control.  And, for a SLDF ship the Avatar had a fairly small cargo capacity at a ‘mere’ 60,886 tons which somewhat limits her range but with 4,500 tons of fuel onboard she does not suffer from having short legs in that regard.

But it was the electrical systems that doomed the Avatar to an early retirement and by the outbreak of the Amaris Civil War the Avatar had long since been consigned to training commands or sitting quietly in mothballs.  During the Amaris crisis the old Avatar was brought out of retirement to serve on both sides of the conflict and of the ships built, only six would survive to see Terra liberated.  Despite their age and electrical faults, these six ships would depart the Inner Sphere as part of Operation EXODUS and would vanish from the Inner Sphere for centuries.

Design.

I like the Avatar, not only does it look good, but its got firepower, protection and she’s far from perfect, her god awful cooling system and her average armour being main pointers.  And whilst she’s got average armour, its not bad, over 100 on the bow, 90+ on each flank and 80+ on the stern and she’s got guns sticking out all over. 
Six NL-55’s and four Heavy NPPC’s in the bow give her the ability to really reach out and touch someone, the fore and aft quarters on each side all contain paired NAC-20’s and paired Heavy NPPC’s, as well as a trio of NL-35’s, a trio of Killer Whale launch tubes and three LRM-20’s (each with artemis.) The broadside takes this and goes MOAR!!!  Six NL-35’s, four Heavy NPPC’s and a pair of NAC-30’s give the ship its main punch and a trio of Killer Whales can join in with their crit seeking goodness, or nuclear warheads.  The stern also features a six pack of NL-35’s and a pair of NAC-20’s as well as a trio of LRM 20 for point defence.
That’s a LOT of firepower, and whilst it does not have the raw punch of an Aegis with their big NAC batteries, the Avatar’s firepower lets them pick and choose what they want to do, and they can bracket fire better than any cruiser other than the Kimagure, and even here the Avatar out does it with that big broadside cluster of NL-35’s.  But oh lord the heat.  Her broadside guns alone pump out over 1400 heat, and she can vent just shy of 2400.  If you add a bow or stern quarters into that mix you’ll be pretty much heat maxed out, firing both and you WILL overheat and risk running out of control.  Still the Avatar can take a pounding, her armours good and 85 Structural integrity is also meaty and where it not for the fluff about her having electrical issues, she’d have no doubt gone on to live as long as the Aegis did.

And speaking of her gremlins…

Personal theory

The power problems that plagued the Avatar seem to point at the class not having a suitable reactor system and this makes sense.  The reactor was either too small, or simply too stressed by the energy needs of the weapon systems.  Perhaps her builders had planned for a NAC heavy armament, and instead the Admiralty went “Make it go imma firin’ mah lazor.”to the folks who actually chose the weapons.  Either way, the Avatar when trying to power all her weapons in combat would probably be running at full power or in excess of it, straining the reactor and the power relay systems which might explain the brownouts and power surges.

But wait. There’s more.

Liberator Class Cruiser

The Avatar didn’t end with EXODUS, all six ships were instead mothballed following the settling in the Pentagon worlds and there they would quietly remain, slowly gathering space dust until REVIVAL reared its head. 

Feeling the need for more WarShips, the Avatar’s were reactivated and hauled in to be very comprehensively overhauled.  And these refits were major.  The original Avatar had two large grav-decks, one at 145 meters in diameter the other at 185 meters wide.  The Clans stripped the ships of their hull plating and removed the 185-meter deck, as well as the ships reactor system and electronics, finally curing the gremlins that had plagued the class.  Nearly 1000 tons of Ferro-Carbide armour was then reapplied to the hull, which although weight less than the Avatar’s 1,200 tons plus of standard plate, provided much more protection.

The weapons were also overhauled, the bow naval PPC battery was removed and the laser battery downgraded to six 45cm lasers.  But a plethora of anti-fighter weapons was added including ultra autocannons as well as large and small ER lasers. The fore and aft quarters lost their 35cm lasers but retained the paired NAC-20 and heavy naval PPC’s.  The LRM’s were upgraded to Clan spec ones and a quartet of Medium pulse lasers was mounted.  The broadsides received major changes.  The NAC-30’s and six 35cm laser mounts were retained, the weight freed by removing the heavy PPCs was used to install two naval gauss rifle mounts, each with a heavy and medium naval gauss rifle in it.  This drastically reduced the cruiser’s heat output whilst keeping her punch roughly the same.  For point defence amidships, six ER large lasers and six ER small lasers were also mounted.   The aft was only covered by six 35cm lasers as well as a potent battery of autocannons and lasers mirroring those in the nose.  The ship lacked the heavy missile battery of the Avatar and now boasted thicker hull plating as well as Harjel hull sealing tanks to close any breeches in the hull.

The cruiser, now designated the Liberator class also had its aerospace wing adjusted to fit the Clan’s base 10 grouping and she now carried a rather formidable 30 fighters, but, like the Avatar, she lacked any small craft berths.  The six DropShip collars were retained, allowing the Liberator to act as a self-contained invasion force if needs be. She also carried up to 50 Elementals for onboard security as well as having space for a full Cluster of conventional infantry.  This carrying capacity is almost never used as the Clan’s, even the Hells Horses do not use pure infantry Clusters so one has to wonder if this space wasn’t meant for things like prisoners or other very important personnel, or its just a hangover from when the ship was designed.  Cargo space also decreases down to little more than 50,000 tons, which by SLDF standards or Clan standards is positively anaemic. 

Unfortunately, the Liberator suffers from even bigger heat woes than the Avatar.  Despite upgrading to double heatsinks, she mounts far less of them and dissipates less heat than an Avatar did.  The Liberator can vent just 1,180+ of heat.  But, firing her aft quarter guns alone generates over 800 heat.  The broadside guns bump this up another 600 plus.  This means that a Liberator’s Captain must be VERY careful with what weapons they fire. They must also ensure that they do not get surrounded by foes because the Liberator simply can’t fire both broadsides without crippling herself and risking drifting out of combat whilst she cools down, a sitting duck for any threat. 

Despite these flaws, the Liberator is still existent today in the current 3150 setting, with two of the ships serving in the Wolf Empire’s fleet, although the operating condition of these ships is unknown as there’s no shipyard in Wolf space capable of taking them.  But this is still a considerable feat, making the class at least 619 years old and the third oldest ships in service anywhere in the Inner Sphere, only outdone by the surviving Aegis and Whirlwind class ships. 

Fighting them and fighting with them.

As both the Avatar and Liberator are the same basic craft the tactics for them are the same.  You’ve got lots of long range guns and can bracket fire with them, especially as the Avatar so use that advantage.  The Avatar also has the capacity to launch 9 missiles at a target, letting her be able to score crits early on before a fight is joined.  With your 3/5 movement curve and thrust rating you can dance as well as an Essex class destroyer or any of the later era battleships. You’re also as manoeuvrable and can accelerate as well as any Frigate and out run Johnny come lately’s like the Sovetskii Soyuz.  You’ve got a meaty punch and can engage targets at all ranges and you’re armoured enough to at least take a good slap before having to be worried.
But that heat…you’re over-gunned, under-sinked and unless you’re willing to risk drifting without being able to manoeuvre or fire accurately and this plagues both classes as neither can use their full weapons load without risking drifting. 
But if you’re using one, stand-off at long range, bracket fire until they are weakened and close in to finish them off with autocannons.  You’ve got 24 or 30 fighters, so you can use them to strike or defend yourself and with six DropShips you’ve got lots of carrying options, although I would hazard that canonically, one of those DropShips would be a cargo ship due to the classes limited cargo space. 

Fighting against an Avatar or Liberator would be a painful fight, if you’re using 3068 House ships, he can bracket fire, you can’t.  Both sides have decent anti-fighter defences and an Avatar or Liberator is well protected and solidly built, so if you happen to be driving an Agamemnon class, don’t get into a brawl, you’re not built for it.  Really the best result is numbers, use WarShips or DropShips to approach from multiple angles, forcing the Avatar/Liberator to choose what to fire at and what not to fire at.  It’s hard for the crew being shot at, but it lets other ships get close and engage.

So what one's better?

Good question, both ships are well armed, and have the same movement capacity and their punch is broadly similar.  But despite its weaker armour, i'd go with the Avatar, with her lasers and missiles she's just better at long range fighting than the Liberator.  The paired guass rifles are nice, but the ship is so criminally under sinked that she can't use her firepower even less than the Avatar.  And in reality, unless you're going head on at someone, the Liberator's armour isn't that much better than the Avatar's, only on the bow is it way heavier.  The Liberator does have a lovely anti-fighter defence though, and if you was playing her alone, then that might well be very useful in making sure that a fighter strike against you does not get off scott free.  So, in a big battle, Avatar, in a single ship engagement, Liberator.

The Avatar class, a fine looking ship, one that looks like a 'proper' space ship.



The 3057 Liberator, one of the better looking ships of the book, looking suitably meaty.



And finally a personal and non-canon. commission done by Matt Plog of the Liberator Class. We both liked the look of the 3057 one and mostly kept the design the same.





As always, thoughts, comments are most welcome!
« Last Edit: 20 October 2018, 16:19:24 by marauder648 »
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Ruger

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5574
Ah, the Avatar...so close to the perfect cruiser in my mind but still so far away...

The Liberator less so...

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

I am Belch II

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10158
  • It's a gator with a nuke, whats the problem.
So very nice
Walking the fine line between sarcasm and being a smart-ass

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
You sure spend on those visuals.
While it is nice, game wise, if a design has flaws, one wonders why they left in one so obvious when overhauling this design.
"Well, it overheats anyways. Might as well give up and reduce the sinks!"?

@Ruger less perfect, or less far away?
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Ruger

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5574
You sure spend on those visuals.
While it is nice, game wise, if a design has flaws, one wonders why they left in one so obvious when overhauling this design.
"Well, it overheats anyways. Might as well give up and reduce the sinks!"?

@Ruger less perfect, or less far away?

I think you answered your own question there... ;)

And besides that...let's lose a large portion of our bracket fire ability while we're at it...

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Thanks for writing this up, Marauder.

Giving it more account on the design helps to understand it's strength and weaknesses we may have over looked.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
I just had a thought about LF batteries and their use in the SLDF.

Avatar - 2531
(probably the Monsoon in the 2530 - 50 period)
Kimagure - 2582

Then there's no LF battery ships produced at all until the McKenna starts entering service in 2618, followed by the Luxor in 2727 and Riga II in 2747 and then the Aegis gets its 2750 refit which sees a LF battery get installed.

So why was there a 36 year break between the introduction of the McKenna and the Kimagure where no LF ships were built, and they entered service in the early 2530's.  A span of roughly 88 years.  During this time the Texas and Potemkin classes were introduced as well as the Black Lion II.  All of which could have benefitted from having a LF battery installed.  And i'm surprised the Cameron didn't have one just to add to the cost and design bloat. 

So why did the SLDF go nuts for LF batteries, then slam the breaks on its deployment?

This is just a head canon idea but I think we can point at the Avatar.  Perhaps the Avatar was the first wide scale deployment/testbed for the LF battery, but the ships electrical gremlins, perhaps rightly or wrongly were partially blamed on the LF Battery.  I can see talking heads on military news shows or some chap behind a podium talking about how the 'untested and expensive lithium fusion system has cost the SLDF millions in refits and repairs...' etc etc. 

And because of this percived failure, the SLDF backed off from using them, instead opting to keep trying to get the system to work properly with small scale deployment on a limited number of ships following the end of the Avatar's production run (of which we have no idea how many were built).  So putting it on 10 Monsoon and a dozen Kimagure is probably enough of a test/sample group to see if the LF battery can cause problems or if it works correctly. 

There's also a cost factor as well, as an LF battery seriously bumps up the cost of building a WarShip.  The Hegemony then has 88 years to  make sure that LF batteries are a mature and reliable system and then it starts mass deployment on the next generation of WarShips that was started off with the McKenna, Luxor and Riga II.
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
You missed the refit of the Aegis. Also cruisers tend to be available in low numbers until the Sov Soy which is much later than the first batch of LF battery cruisers. (Yes the Sov Soy doesn't have a battery. The second batch consists of solely the Luxor.)

Firstly cruisers seem to be rare in the Hegemony navy. Their role seems to be that of cheap battleship but the Hegemony seems to feel it more effective to pay for the full priced product.

You will note that the first batch of LF cruisers comes out just before the Reunification War. To a large degree These seem like test beds. Their function is to test LF tactics in a price efficient package. All up there are about 150.

After the war the Hegemony decides the best package for a LF battery is a battleship, cuts the Texas program short at 50ish, the Farraguts are inappropriate, pumps out 280 LF battery equipped battleships and never builds another LF cruiser until the 2740s.

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
The Sov Soy's a cruiser only in name and size, she's not got the speed or firepower of one and IMO is a fat frigate.  But she's cheap and built to be mass produced so makes sense for the SLDF. 

And ya right Cruisers are a bit rare, I know I tend to think way too navally and I view the SLDF's fleet as being a bit top heavy.  We know there was 80 odd Aegis, 400 odd Sovetskii Soyuz, an unknown number of Avatar and Dart classes, 12 Kimagure (which is a shame as they are a fine cruiser despite their heat issues) and an unknown number of Luxors (probably several hundred as they were built to escort the McKenna).

There was somewhere around 300 Essex II's and an equal number of Lola IIIs (ish) and an unknown number of Vincents along with older classes sitting in mothballs, training commands and naval reserves.  Sure the Carson class had its flaws that might well limit its deployment 'overseas' but there's 200 of them and they can quite happily patrol the Hegemony itself, freeing up more modern ships for longer range missions.  There's also the Naga class that was retired quite early compared to say the Aegis which entered service 300 years prior. 

Thinking in wet navy terms the SLDF/HAF had plenty of destroyers and escorts even if the 3 NBC's were slow as all hell.  And it wasn't until the McKenna came along that there was really a large number of Battleships (we've no idea how many Farraguts and Monsoons were made but i'm going to guess less than 100 each).

And to me, again, thinking navally, a cruiser would be your main kind of deployable unit, they are bigger than a DD and tougher, as well as being more habitable which lends itself to long missions and patrols.  They're cheaper to produce than battleships and cheaper to run (for the most part) due to smaller crew requirements and a cruiser makes a bigger wow factor when you want to show the flag.

And this role only gets filled in by the Sov Soy in 2742 as she's an ideal patrol ship if she just had bigger fuel tanks (guess you could use that 220k tons as fuel) I just think we're missing a few cruiser classes between the Aegis and the Avatar, and you could probably fit another proper cruiser in following the Avatar (the Kimagure don't count, she's in essence a test bed/sales pitch writ large) and the Sov Soy/Luxor to bulk the fleets numbers up. 
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield


The Hegemony navy is a slippery beast who changes from decade to decade. A heavy cruiser in 2300 is different to a heavy cruiser in 2600, and different again in 2750.


https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=26556.0
 
Probably the main change I would make with what I wrote so long ago is to find a word to replace the concept of fleets. More recent source books have made clear that the SLDF mixed its ships, the concept of Fast Fleet and Slow Fleet remains to explain the role of the ships within a single fleet.

marauder648

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8157
    • Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #10 on: 21 October 2018, 07:05:47 »
A wonderful article, very well thought out!  I still think there's some holes that could be filled by cruisers, we only ever saw one cannonical light cruiser in HAF/SLDF service and there wasn't anything after it and in reality there wasn't much of a need, Destroyers got very big with the Lola's to the point that you could probably get away with calling them cruisers in terms of raw size.  And later we get the Sov Soy's acting as frigates or DD flotilla leaders.

Also @Jellico a thought about your article and the missing ships/upgrades.

A simple way of doing the Royal upgrades is just use the upgraded ships from TRO3057 as they tended to feature some changes and updates to the weapons that could probably be classed as Royal.
« Last Edit: 21 October 2018, 07:23:24 by marauder648 »
Ghost Bears: Cute and cuddly. Until you remember its a BLOODY BEAR!

Project Zhukov Fan AU TRO's and PDFs - https://thezhukovau.wordpress.com/

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #11 on: 22 October 2018, 07:39:19 »
Thank you for the kind words.

One day I will be able to push through a RS3057U that will sort out many of these issues. Some of what was worked on was quite exciting.


Historically navies don't always need large numbers of cruiser type ships. Historically a cruiser is a trade off between seaworthiness and expandability. If lighter craft are seaworthy enough tend to go extinct. Big cruisers tend to become 2nd class battleships neither fish nor fowl and a waste of money outside of specific scenarios.


It is worth noting in the Hegemony and SLDF cruisers tend to have NAC heavy broadsides for comparatively good firepower to tonnage ratios. They tend to have relatively low cargo fractions compared to other SLDF classes. This makes the more fighting ships than any other SLDF ship.

The question then becomes, what does this mean in the largely peacetime SLSF?

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #12 on: 22 October 2018, 10:03:09 »
One thing Marauder, spine & keel tend to be the same thing- so dorsal/ventral ridge is a better description for the DS collar location.

As much as I love the concept of a cruiser class, I will agree with Jellico that the Hegemony after the Reunification War- and thus the Star League- did not really need one.  In addition since the Houses tended to build cruisers & battlecruisers rather than be able to build/support battleships, then that would be a ready source of those ships if the League needed to requisition them.

Typical duties of the cruisers were to patrol boarders (show the flag), engage in commerce raiding operations, or lead/muscle for small task forces (convoy escorts, amphib escorts, NGS, ASW screen CO).  The Hegemony has no unfriendly borders to patrol (houses do so . . . ), they conquered the Periphery so what commerce are they going to raid?, and for leading small task forces they have their battlecruisers or mass produced battleships.

I think it comes down to the tech disparity between Hegemony & Houses . . . can a Hegemony frigate/destroyer defeat a House cruiser in single combat?  Basically does the smaller ship have enough superior weaponry & defenses along with a better trained crew to be able to defeat a larger opponent?
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

UnLimiTeD

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2039
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #13 on: 22 October 2018, 12:44:05 »
If one Destroyer can't do the job, two battle cruisers ought to do.  :thumbsup:
Savannah Masters are the Pringles of Battletech.
Ooo! OOOOOOO! That was a bad one!...and I liked it.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #14 on: 22 October 2018, 13:44:45 »
I have never really looked at the numbers but . . . is the cost of warships arithmetic or is it geometric?  For instance if the cost of a 200kt warship is the cost of two 100kt warships (give or take a bit) of comparable capabilities- IE same thrust, same number of DS collars (4 on 200kt, 2 on each 100kt), comparable weapons loads & armor . . . then why would you build the smaller ships?  If the costs (to include build time) are geometric . . . say a 1000kt warship costs 200-500 times a 100kt warship, then you are more likely to get a pyramidal overall fleet structure.

IIRC real life ship costs are geometric because of the complexity or building larger systems- more working parts, bigger and spread out over more decks/spaces.  And from what I remember, this is not really reflected in Aerospace rules.

So, battleships! makes sense . . . and so does small patrol warships to be pickets, at least before HPGs.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #15 on: 22 October 2018, 14:19:53 »
Perhaps fluffwise, the reason why we haven't seen any light cruisers beyond Lyran carbon copy of the Dart (aka the Commonwealth), was because Avatar essentially was able to do same things? Same amount of dropcollars, reasonable cargo capacity, wee bit more firepower?
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

marcussmythe

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1204
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #16 on: 22 October 2018, 15:23:58 »
I have never really looked at the numbers but . . . is the cost of warships arithmetic or is it geometric?  For instance if the cost of a 200kt warship is the cost of two 100kt warships (give or take a bit) of comparable capabilities- IE same thrust, same number of DS collars (4 on 200kt, 2 on each 100kt), comparable weapons loads & armor . . . then why would you build the smaller ships?  If the costs (to include build time) are geometric . . . say a 1000kt warship costs 200-500 times a 100kt warship, then you are more likely to get a pyramidal overall fleet structure.

IIRC real life ship costs are geometric because of the complexity or building larger systems- more working parts, bigger and spread out over more decks/spaces.  And from what I remember, this is not really reflected in Aerospace rules.

So, battleships! makes sense . . . and so does small patrol warships to be pickets, at least before HPGs.

Costs are less than arithmatic.  A 2MT ship costs less than 2x1MT ship, and appallingly less than 8x 250kt ship.

Costs for collars are large (and linear - 1 collar costs the same on a ship of any size)
Costs for KF drives are large, and grow along the same lines as ship size.
Costs for KF Drives combined with collars go very very high very very quickly.

This may explain the divide in Star League hulls.  Either as big as reasonable, for mission load/combat jobs, or minimum size to do the job and show the flag.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #17 on: 22 October 2018, 15:36:13 »
I remember where the costs really added up- yeah, the no collars being part of a min/max design- and I was pretty sure my example was how it AT handled the designs.

Which is really too bad, but I am not sure the ground unit cost system works any differently.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Ruger

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5574
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #18 on: 22 October 2018, 16:37:27 »
Perhaps fluffwise, the reason why we haven't seen any light cruisers beyond Lyran carbon copy of the Dart (aka the Commonwealth)

 ??? ??? ???

How is the Commonwealth-class light cruiser a carbon copy of the Dart-class light cruiser?

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 28991
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #19 on: 22 October 2018, 16:44:14 »
Both have the same shape, shoots guns, carries SC bays instead of ASF, six collars & jump?

No really, the fluff I read said it was produced by a DiTron stepchild and kept saying 'like the Dart.'  I think a better description would have been 'improved Dart' but that is semantics.
Colt Ward
Clan Invasion Backer #149, Leviathans #104

"We come in peace, please ignore the bloodstains."

"Greetings, Mechwarrior. You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the Frontier against Daoshen and the Capellan armada."

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #20 on: 22 October 2018, 17:05:02 »
Costs are less than arithmatic.  A 2MT ship costs less than 2x1MT ship, and appallingly less than 8x 250kt ship.

And honestly that is not that different to the real world. Bigger is usually more efficient. Environmental factors then kick in to restrict size.

Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7915
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #21 on: 22 October 2018, 17:19:43 »
The Sov Soy's a cruiser only in name and size, she's not got the speed or firepower of one and IMO is a fat frigate.  But she's cheap and built to be mass produced so makes sense for the SLDF. 

I'm reasonably certain the Soyuz wasn't really made to do the same job as ships like the Aegis, Avatar, or Luxor. I assume the Soyuz' primary role was as a destroyer leader in the garrison fleet. According to FM:SLDF the League tended to permanently assign a pair of destroyers to a lot of their fleet bases, "Sometimes bolstered by a cruiser", and that these ships were purely second tier stuff with substandard training and limited experience. Sounds like an ideal role for the Soyuz.

 

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #22 on: 23 October 2018, 11:36:20 »
Would the way stats were done in TRO:2750 effect how the Soy would turn out being like?  She seem more up gunned in the book before that switch to Battlespace format.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Ruger

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5574
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #23 on: 23 October 2018, 13:51:00 »
Would the way stats were done in TRO:2750 effect how the Soy would turn out being like?  She seem more up gunned in the book before that switch to Battlespace format.

Only in the initial stat block. If you look at the actual layout of weapons by arc, the other 18 NL-45's mentioned in the initial stat block are nowhere to be found...

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

Jellico

  • Spatium Magister
  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 6126
  • BattleMechs are the lords of the battlefield
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #24 on: 24 October 2018, 15:12:28 »
At best 9 NL45s per broadside. 41 points of damage. Scary.

Ironically the Sov Soy matches my definition for a Star League battle cruiser because it lacks a LF battery.
But as I have said in the Sov Soy thread it really is a redefinition of the Heavy Cruiser role by replacing the frigates which haven't been built since the Reunification War with DropShip based doctrine.

I like to think of it as designed for asymmetric warfare as enemy fleets don't exist in 2720.

But we are talking about the Avatar and Liberator.
« Last Edit: 24 October 2018, 15:28:30 by Jellico »

Frabby

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4252
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #25 on: 24 October 2018, 16:27:49 »
Sidenote: You can't discuss the Avatar/Liberator class without mentioning the SLS Morello, anachronistically listed as a Liberator on the eve of Kerensky's Exodus.

Either there was another Liberator class out there, or otherwise the Clans maybe just dug out an ancient refit that had already been devised and prototyped during the late Star League era...
Sarna.net BattleTechWiki Admin
Author of the BattleCorps stories Feather vs. Mountain, Rise and Shine, Proprietary, Trial of Faith & scenario Twins

Wrangler

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 25021
  • Dang it!
    • Battletech Fanon Wiki
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #26 on: 24 October 2018, 19:06:18 »
Properly a typo.
"Men, fetch the Urbanmechs.  We have an interrogation to attend to." - jklantern
"How do you defeat a Dragau? Shoot the damn thing. Lots." - Jellico 
"No, it's a "Most Awesome Blues Brothers scene Reenactment EVER" waiting to happen." VotW Destrier - Weirdo  
"It's 200 LY to Sian, we got a full load of shells, a half a platoon of Grenadiers, it's exploding outside, and we're wearing flak jackets." VoTW Destrier - Misterpants
-Editor on Battletech Fanon Wiki

Liam's Ghost

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 7915
  • Miss Chitty finds your honor rules quaint.
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #27 on: 24 October 2018, 19:29:47 »
Technically, that was a product of art, which is of dubious canonicity anyway.  :P
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

gyedid

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2582
  • Always brighter on the other side of the mirror.
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #28 on: 25 October 2018, 02:41:00 »
At best 9 NL45s per broadside. 41 points of damage. Scary.

For Dropships and fighter squadrons of the era?  Hell yeah!  Plus it gives the Sov Soy a measure of bracketing ability it doesn't otherwise have.

But we are talking about the Avatar and Liberator.

I find the Avatar to just be an odd duck, with its somewhat eclectic weapon mix, low armour, low cargo space, and six collars--which usually characterizes a battleship.  IIRC correctly, the only other "cruiser" with that many collars is the Tharkad.  And since that was seemingly the largest ship the Lyrans built, they would probably try to use it the way the Terran/SLDF navy used their battleships, so there 6 collars makes sense.  And how many other ships have such low cargo capacity for the weight range?  Only the Black Lion (II) and again, the Tharkad, come to mind.

The Avatar's insufficient cooling and electrical glitches are dictates of the fluff--since it had been previously stated that the Luxor replaced it, we had to be given some reasons why.  The Avatar had to suck.

And which armour compound did the Avatar use again?

There isn't any fluff that states one way or the other whether the electrical problems were corrected during conversion to the Liberator, is there?  (The Cameron's fluff at least is clear on that point).

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

Ruger

  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 5574
Re: More Warships of the week? The Liberator/Avatar Class heavy Cruiser.
« Reply #29 on: 25 October 2018, 04:25:03 »
I find the Avatar to just be an odd duck, with its somewhat eclectic weapon mix, low armour, low cargo space, and six collars--which usually characterizes a battleship.  IIRC correctly, the only other "cruiser" with that many collars is the Tharkad.  And since that was seemingly the largest ship the Lyrans built, they would probably try to use it the way the Terran/SLDF navy used their battleships, so there 6 collars makes sense.  And how many other ships have such low cargo capacity for the weight range?  Only the Black Lion (II) and again, the Tharkad, come to mind.

For the 6 docking collars, the Dart and Commonwealth-class light cruisers also had 6 each...as to the "low" cargo, several SLDF cruiser classes had less than 100,000 tons of cargo...often far less...

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who