Author Topic: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!  (Read 162511 times)

Weirdo

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1440 on: 18 September 2018, 16:12:34 »
I'll stick to units whose record sheet is available in pdf.
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truetanker

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1441 on: 18 September 2018, 16:21:20 »
If I find my copy, would a fax be ok?

Cause I'm like that kinda guy....  8)

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Weirdo

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1442 on: 18 September 2018, 16:23:38 »
A 5-ton wheeled vehicle would pass very well for a Humvee, even under standard construction rules

You could even up it to 10 tons and make an MRAP of sorts

I would say that very light vehicles like that are the whole point of the support vee rules. The MRAP in particular simply needs enough armor of BAR 5(or higher) to survive a typical mine hex and a single ton of cargo for the infantry squad, and you're good.
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worktroll

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1443 on: 18 September 2018, 16:49:25 »
I'm playingthem as 5 ton combat vehicles for simplicity 10/15 ICE with half a ton armour gives a 1.5 ton payload.

Hiluxes are comvat vees, after all ...
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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1444 on: 18 September 2018, 19:39:19 »
I would say that very light vehicles like that are the whole point of the support vee rules. The MRAP in particular simply needs enough armor of BAR 5(or higher) to survive a typical mine hex and a single ton of cargo for the infantry squad, and you're good.
Can do, but I mean if one doesn't want to faff around with the support fee rules, even standard rules suffice.
I'm playingthem as 5 ton combat vehicles for simplicity 10/15 ICE with half a ton armour gives a 1.5 ton payload.

Hiluxes are comvat vees, after all ...
A JLTV weighs about as much. The thing would take an AC2 across all sides, give it another 0.5ton and it can take an AC5 and a bit even... That's way better than an actual JLTV can expect.

GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1445 on: 20 September 2018, 20:22:09 »
As I look at Alpha Strike more... I'm very pleased. While I do lament the loss of fine detail in controlling some Mechs (the TDR-10M in particular benefits from this), this very same thing redeems a lot of Mechs that are 'in lore' supposed to be good machines but have moderate to major flaws in Total Warfare.

Going to Alpha Strike, I see things like: The Grand Titans range from decent to excellent. The TDR-9M is believable in the role of a main-line heavy. The Anzu fills its mission role well enough that I now see why so many of us adopt it as our user profile image. The Shadow Hawks -2H, -5M, and -7M are similarly playable in this system. So many machines that the TROs tell us are good machines, now truly are.

One question I'm unclear on: How does FWL in particular benefit from TAG, other than Artillery? Do you just declare your unit marked LRM (is "IF" close enough for this purpose) is using Semi-Guided ammo? Any downsides to loading said ammo, like a change in unit cost or so on? I didn't see anything, but this is a lot of info to take in all at once.

It clearly has its flaws, but I like where this goes more than I dislike it. Wish I had a convenient way to play it.

Edit: Rules confusing me a bit. Can someone walk me through using TAG for Semi-Guided LRMs in Alpha Strike, what modifiers apply, etc.?
« Last Edit: 20 September 2018, 20:24:09 by GespenstM »

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1446 on: 20 September 2018, 20:59:42 »
TAG + SG is a lot simpler than you might think, and I'm willing to bet it's some bleed-through from Total Warfare that's the problem.

First off, "IF#" is not enough, the unit actually has to have LRM#/#/#.  If that's the case, then:

Is your target TAGged?
Y: +1 damage to the attack
N: attack does normal damage.

OR

If you use LRM ONLY to attack (rather than your full damage value)
Y: -2 to hit the TAGged target
N: attack has the normal TN

Units with the LRM special by definition also have IF, and SG ammunition can be used during an indirect attack.  The same rules I described still apply.

EDIT: Special shout out to the Shadow Hawk being a damn fine Medium Trooper in Alpha Strike.  Relatively cheap, relatively durable, relatively mobile, enough gun to let someone know they've been touched.  A true jack of all trades.
« Last Edit: 20 September 2018, 21:05:36 by Scotty »
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1447 on: 20 September 2018, 21:42:07 »
Thanks for the info! Do SG LRMs modify the unit's point cost? My reading suggests 'no', but I'm unsure.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1448 on: 20 September 2018, 21:46:19 »
Thanks for the info! Do SG LRMs modify the unit's point cost? My reading suggests 'no', but I'm unsure.

They do not.  No special ammo does.  Special ammo is buried firmly in "check with your opponent first" optional rules, though.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1449 on: 20 September 2018, 21:51:33 »
Special ammo can get pricey though in campaign play.

GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1450 on: 20 September 2018, 22:26:59 »
Looks like Arrow IV Homing Rounds are 'standard rules', though. What platforms do we have for that? I know of the Anvil... 8M I believe? Feels like there should be a few others.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1451 on: 20 September 2018, 22:34:02 »
They're not, but you can use TAG in standard rules to give a bonus to hit to your (generic) Arrow IV missiles in standard rules.  You don't even need to hit with the TAG!

truetanker

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1452 on: 20 September 2018, 23:20:54 »
Longbow-8V

Variant of the -7V which uses an XL, still 3/5 though but it retains the ER Large and 2 of the MPLs from the parent, just adds twin A4's!

I'd defiantly would run a Heavy Ontos lance of five as bodyguard / overwatch for this baby. 2 LGR and 2 MML with a Demo A4 thrown in for more support, even go as far as to operate some BA love to supplement the forces security detachment.

And this is just for 1 mech, the rest I'd need more time...

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Weirdo

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1453 on: 20 September 2018, 23:49:19 »
You think TAG is fun in Alpha Strike, you should see NARC. Ain't NOBODY goes near one of our Stalkers anymore...least not more than once. >:D
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1454 on: 21 September 2018, 12:48:44 »
I'm confused. What determines whether a unit gets LRM #/#/# or not? I'm seeing tons of machines that have huge LRM racks (Mad Cat III, Perseus A, etc.) and they have IF#, but not LRM#/#/#. For that matter, what determines receiving SRM#/#/#? Same thing there, I've seen machines with lots of SRMs that don't have the ability on their stat card.

NARC in any case is clearly fun. +1 damage on Indirect, LRM Direct, and SRM attacks is no joke.

Weirdo

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1455 on: 21 September 2018, 12:57:39 »
If a unit has Artemis, it won't get LRM or SRM. Artemis is factored into the unit's base damage, so such a unit must be assumed to be using Artemis ammo at all times, precluding any use of other rounds.

Think of it as an excuse to keep a few older machines in your arsenals. :)
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glitterboy2098

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1456 on: 21 September 2018, 13:02:16 »
what he said. the Mad Cat III 4 has standard launchers though, so you can always change around your variant there if you want a mad Cat III with an LRM special.

i suspect that for FWL fans it can be a bit frustraiting though, given how much the FWL relies on LRM's and how they have a lot of the nicer special munitions.. but also tend to stick Artemis onto all those racks.
« Last Edit: 21 September 2018, 13:05:34 by glitterboy2098 »

Weirdo

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1457 on: 21 September 2018, 13:22:28 »
My advice? Use your mechs for general combat, and bring an unupgraded LRM Carrier or two for your special ammo needs. :)
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truetanker

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1458 on: 21 September 2018, 14:34:27 »
Heavy LRM Carriers and Behemoth Standard.... both work great together, and we run 5 tanks per unit.Oh and they both have TUR!!!!

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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1459 on: 21 September 2018, 22:29:40 »
I'm curious about an Alpha Strike matchup. How do people figure the Mad Cat Mk. IV A stacks up against the Mad Cat Mk. II Standard? They're of similar point cost, but when I play it out in 'lab conditions' (which admittedly leave out a lot of things I'd expect in regular play)... the Mk. II Standard beats the Mk. IV a significant amount of the time. Perhaps I'm missing something from more practical play that explains why they're considered roughly equal?


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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1460 on: 21 September 2018, 22:41:44 »
Well, the IV A has 12 total A/S vs the II (S) with 13.  That right there puts them roughly equal.  If the II (S) is winning most of the time, I'd wager it's because the IV A is engaging at Short and Medium range, which is exactly where he does not want to be in this matchup.  The textbook answer to let the IV A win is to stay at Long range until you can dart in for an Overheat-assisted Medium range kill.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1461 on: 21 September 2018, 23:36:59 »
Though it's my understanding that maintaining Long range is pretty hard to do, and really drags games out in the occasions you do manage it?

Playing against myself has been a poor way of testing how practical this really is, since I know what I'm going to do.

Scotty

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1462 on: 21 September 2018, 23:38:31 »
I'm curious about an Alpha Strike matchup. How do people figure the Mad Cat Mk. IV A stacks up against the Mad Cat Mk. II Standard? They're of similar point cost, but when I play it out in 'lab conditions' (which admittedly leave out a lot of things I'd expect in regular play)... the Mk. II Standard beats the Mk. IV a significant amount of the time. Perhaps I'm missing something from more practical play that explains why they're considered roughly equal?

More specifically, with a total of 12 A/S the Mad Cat Mk II (Standard) is going to be able to destroy the Mk IV A in two hits.  That could be one hit at long range as they're closing (best case) and one hit at medium, or just two hits outright at medium range.  The reverse is not true: the Mk IV A takes a minimum turns-to-kill of three to take down a Mk II with a 4 damage long range and 5 damage medium range.

If the Mk IV A keeps the range open, the TTK for the Mk II makes the significant leap to three hits, at a reduced rate thanks to the long range modifier.  Since the Mk IV A has the higher speed, it can (presumably) influence the range enough to ensure this happens.  The Mk IV A has a TTK against the Mk II of four turns if it stays purely at long range.  Obviously that's a losing fight, but if the Mk IV A manages to score two hits at long range, suddenly the medium range shot threatens a kill.  While this is true of the Mk II as well, that makes the average TTK of both 'Mechs three hits if the Mk IV A utilizes its speed well - which is exactly the kind of parity you'd expect from a pair of 'Mechs so similar in PV.

In terms of actual numbers, and assuming a relatively sparse table environment where lines of sight can be kept open, that ends up being (at Skill 4, mind you):

Mad Cat Mk II (Standard): 16.7% chance to hit at Long range, 41.7% chance to hit at Medium range.  Average time-to-kill at Long range is 18 turns (1/6th chance, needs three hits), at Medium range is 5 turns.

Mad Cat Mk IV A: 27.7% chance to hit at Long range, 58.3% chance to hit at Medium range.  Average time-to-kill at Long range is 15 turns (slightly beats the Mk II, but well within likely variance), at Medium range is 6 turns, and the reduced variance from the more likely shots means there's less of an (overall) chance that the Mk IV A gets lucky and gets there before the Mk II.

Looking at the change from Long to Medium range, though, is where things get interesting.  It takes an average of 6 turns for the Mk II to score a hit, which puts the Mk IV A into the lethal-threat range at Medium.  It takes a Mad Cat Mk IV A approximately 4 turns to hit the Mk II once, and 8 turns to hit it twice.  The Mk IV A can probably land that second hit well before it's in danger of being outright destroyed by the Mk II.  It'll take three shots at that range, so there's even a measure of cushion, and the odds that a Mk IV A can hit the Mk II twice before it's been hit once are not-insubstantial.  Once that happens, the TTK for both is (presumably) one-hit at Medium range, but the Mk IV A has the ~16% advantage in hit numbers at that range, and is more likely to win.

Though it's my understanding that maintaining Long range is pretty hard to do, and really drags games out in the occasions you do manage it?

Playing against myself has been a poor way of testing how practical this really is, since I know what I'm going to do.

The ultimate answer, of course, is "bring supporting units", but a faster unit should be able to reliably kite a slower unit around a typical board with relative impunity, especially with initiative.
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1463 on: 22 September 2018, 02:20:08 »
Thank you. Those numbers seem pretty apt, even if they're a bit simplified (though re-running the numbers to account for crits on the Mk. II is probably more complex than the basic overview really calls for).

I'm also really impressed by the Perseus. While a few configs remain extremely bad (or at least 'bad enough to merit a lower PV cost, which might be good in some cases')... the others are impressive.

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1464 on: 22 September 2018, 04:07:49 »
I'm curious now as to which ones you consider to be good (or at least less crap) Perseus configurations
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GespenstM

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1465 on: 22 September 2018, 08:53:08 »
In Alpha Strike? You can make a legit case for fielding every single one. P1B is 'bad', yes, but its PV comes at a huge discount that reflects this and still gets you okay damage output and durability for the cost. Bad Mechs are PV-costed so that at least you're not getting completely ripped off.

In Total Warfare? Good configs include:

P1A - Yes, the ARC-4M is a more durable version of the unit... but the P1A is at least decent at the job. ECM, Pulse Lasers, and an SRM rack aren't worth an XL Engine vs. what the ARC-4M does, but I'll accept the P1A is at least playable.

P1D: Walking ammo boom waiting to happen? Yes. However, it packs so many useful tools that, again, I must at least find it playable.

P1E: While it has a few features I personally wouldn't have put on there, it's at least a competent command and tool-use unit. There are only a handful of machines quite like it in the FWL, so it does something we have a need for in some campaigns/venues and makes some sense in-lore as well. Not my top choice (NO Perseus is my 'top choice' in Total Warfare, it's kind of a bad Mech there overall), but the P1E gets a nod from me for at least filling an unusual mission role decently well.

P1P and P1W have their niches as well. They have features I consider to be mistakes, but nothing that makes me go 'what? ...WHY?!' level bad.

These are all far better than P1 Prime (can't kick), P1C (inadequate weapons load, poor use of Light Gauss), and P1B (1 ton of main gun ammo, what the hell?!).


...The funny thing is that due to the changes in how melee works in Alpha Strike, the Perseus' flaw of leg-mounted weapons is no longer a flaw. It's just a thing. You're not missing out on anything by having your guns there. This same change took away one of the best things about the TDR-10M and Anvil series (the dual hands with a lack of meaningful close-range weapons allowing 6 point Punches that might hit the head), but that's a trade I'm willing to make in order to have the Perseus be a good Mech in Alpha Strike. The lore made it clear it was supposed to be a good chassis, just one that's challenging to design good weapon pods for, and now it reflects that; some of its configs are low-PV junk (but you're not paying a premium for them!), others are mid-cost well rounded units, and others are genuinely good with tons of useful Special abilities and lots of damage output.

Alpha Strike really does seem to be primarily about "You know all those Mechs in TRO books that are written to suggest they're good machines that a sensible army would have bought and issued to their troops, it just didn't work out due to the balance problems in Total Warfare or an utter lack of care by some designers in some cases? Well, now they're good. Or at least decent, or you at least get a huge discount on them in terms of PV."

If there was a convenient way to play it online, I'd probably make Alpha Strike my main game. I miss the loss of fine detail on Mechs, loved truly exploring and mastering each one I played in Total Warfare, but... this is an acceptable price to pay for fixing so many machines. The Tempest is strong in all eras (instead of just being a 3055-3060 wonder), the Grand Titan is strong in general as well. The Anzu plays a useful mix of decent damage at all ranges combined with TAG; that's something we don't have much of outside the MAD-9M2 and Anvil 6M. Most of our other TAG units explode in one hit from anything made after 3067, so the Anzu fits a very real niche here and I like that.

Weirdo

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1466 on: 22 September 2018, 13:06:27 »
You wanna see a huge boost in utility in Alpha Strike vs Total War?

Step 1: Remember that there is no such thing as negligible damage in AS, even one point must be considered a solid thwack.

Step 2: Go back to old TROs and notice how many classic units rely on a single AC/5 for their ranged firepower.

Step 3: Look up those classics in Alpha Strike, noting their capabilities and their point costs.

Step 4: Kill everybody. :laughing_skull:

PS: On a completely different note, you should Google the CAV III Kickstarter(I won't link it for obvious reasons), and scroll down until you see their Charger hover vehicle. Looks like a good cheap stand-in for the Tufana, until we get one from IWM. :)
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Scotty

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1467 on: 22 September 2018, 13:47:35 »
LGRs, too.  The Main Gauche, both standard and XL, are phenomenal tanks.
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Weirdo

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1468 on: 22 September 2018, 13:55:52 »
Kinda bummed by the lack of range advantage, but that's the nature of the game.
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Scotty

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Re: The Free Worlds League: Winning with what we've got!
« Reply #1469 on: 22 September 2018, 14:03:48 »
Kinda bummed by the lack of range advantage, but that's the nature of the game.

13-16 PV for Long range damage on a platform that takes non-trivial killing to remove is fantastic for fishing for crits, and no matter how you slice it they're cheap to upgrade with skills.  I love the buggers.
Catalyst Demo Agent #679

Kansas City players, or people who are just passing through the area, come join us at the Geekery just off Shawnee Mission Parkway for BattleTech!  Current days are Tuesdays in the afternoon and evening.  I can't make every single week, but odds are pretty good that somebody will be there.