BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => Ground Combat => Topic started by: Bosefius on 18 July 2019, 20:33:46
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New topic since the other hit 50 pages. Now don't go talking about the TDR-7M, it has no place here :)
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An Equally Nonsensical Sequel
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CrossFire said;
That must have been an exercise in monotony... 100 turns of "roll, miss" or "roll, hit"
Please tell me you didn't roll for initiative every turn.
I mean, I've had games that randomly grew by another 12 or so turns because me and a friend were unwilling to let an Archer get line of sight. I'd imagine that didn't take that long so long as the modifier to-hit was likely always the same.
It is kind of fun to think of some infantry or something watch an building get essentially plinked to death and just kind of staring at the damage, and getting bored of it by twelve minutes in.
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I mean, I've had games that randomly grew by another 12 or so turns because me and a friend were unwilling to let an Archer get line of sight. I'd imagine that didn't take that long so long as the modifier to-hit was likely always the same.
It is kind of fun to think of some infantry or something watch an building get essentially plinked to death and just kind of staring at the damage, and getting bored of it by twelve minutes in.
Could probably have used the box of death to bulk resolve attacks, if the GM didn't wise up and just concede.
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New topic since the other hit 50 pages. Now don't go talking about the TDR-7M, it has no place here :)
The Thunderbolt makes absolutely no sense in context. It is a rugged, sensibly designed wingman that can contribute to the fight all across the range envelope. It's well armored with average speed. In a franchise that takes perverse glee in selling us "sub-optimal" machines, this kind of logic is utter madness! :-)
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The Thunderbolt makes absolutely no sense in context. It is a rugged, sensibly designed wingman that can contribute to the fight all across the range envelope. It's well armored with average speed. In a franchise that takes perverse glee in selling us "sub-optimal" machines, this kind of logic is utter madness! :-)
It's a shame about grimlock1, but he had to go ;D
I don't disagree with anything you said. In a world of Marauders and Warhammers, the Thunderbolt is an outlier. A sweet, sweet outlier.
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With sweet, sweet variants too... 8)
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With sweet, sweet variants too... 8)
And some that definitely belong here.
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Not even the thunderbolt survived the LGR craze
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The LGR T-bolt is just fine, though it is more like the ELH T-bolt than the mainline T-bolts like the Marik 7M upgrade. The LGR Warhammer is far bigger question mark.
(The T-bolt 10M offends my aesthetic sensibilities, that cluster of mismatched weapons is ugly as hell.)
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I don't disagree with anything you said. In a world of Marauders and Warhammers, the Thunderbolt is an outlier. A sweet, sweet outlier.
Unless I'm driving it, of course. Then it fits right in with the Targe. :D
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at least the targe has MASC to get into range faster so it can be put out of its misery
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at least the targe has MASC to get into range faster so it can be put out of its misery
Well, the TRG-3M variant is perfectly fine in my book. But the primary version is a total mess.
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The Targe 3M does indeed look pretty OK. Small cockpit may be an issue, but then again as long as you're moving fast (shouldn't be hard), avoid water, and don't engage in melee, you probably won't be doing many PSRs anyway.
The other two are WTF-level things.
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The mini is the size of a toddler
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at least the targe has MASC to get into range faster so it can be put out of its misery
It also has ammo in its legs so if it blows a MASC check there's a chance it will put itself out of its misery.
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It also has ammo in its legs so if it blows a MASC check there's a chance it will put itself out of its misery.
System redundancy
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Here’s a mech design choice that makes no sense: making a miniature intended for the board game that can’t fit on a hex cleanly.
Bishamon, I’m looking at you
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IIRC quite many quads suffer from being far too wide for hexes.
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some you can do a little bending to get them on a hex like the white flame. others like the bishamon, phoenix scorpion, and stalking spider are lost causes unless you really pack the legs under (and probably make them look silly)
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Yeah, it's a hazard. Either you make the mini tiny or it simply won't fit on a hex.
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Here’s a mech design choice that makes no sense: making a miniature intended for the board game that can’t fit on a hex cleanly.
Bishamon, I’m looking at you
Also, turkina
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So, in a change of pace here’s a mech design decision that did make sense.
Remember that panther miniature that came with the plastic stand and the plastic base? What an awesome way to get a hex base for free!
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My Berserker doesn’t need to fit in a hex: it will be occupying yours soon enough.
Any mech with Reflective or Reactive Armor IMO: why take all that extra damage against other weapons just to negate one type? Unless your on Solaris that is...
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Reactive armor doesn't take extra damage from other damage types. It has a slight chance of explosively failing from a TAC, but that's not a huge issue.
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My Berserker doesn’t need to fit in a hex: it will be occupying yours soon enough.
This is the most Objectively Correct Opinion™️ I’ve seen on the forums in a while
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Any mech with Reflective or Reactive Armor IMO: why take all that extra damage against other weapons just to negate one type? Unless your on Solaris that is...
Reflective is awesome on fast lights and mediums. Significantly nerfs flashbulb and pulse laser builds which tend to bring the most pain for those kinds of units. Their speed lets them mitigate Reflective's common weakness like getting meleed, artillery, and armor piercing ammo. So unless you think you're going to fall or crash through buildings a lot, Reflective's weaknesses aren't too bad on them.
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Special armors' largest issue is, IMO, their considerable BV cost. Think i was trying some idea out, swapping standard plate to reflective boosted BV nearly 20% (though SSW's BV calcs may be somewhat outdated). Considering that the armor types have their weaknesses, the BV costs feel too high.
This assuming they're used properly. Designs that mount special armors but don't really benefit from them are more questionable before BV is considered.
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Being fast and/or reflective does nothing against artillery...
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Being fast and/or reflective does nothing against artillery...
“Your huge TMM is very impressive. Direct fire Long Tom needs 8s”
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Heh... followed by, "Oh, you have reflective armor?" >:D
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Weirdly, Reactive armor is perhaps even better option for fast units. They've probably got little enough armor the reactive chain reaction removing all armor isn't a big deal (especially if placed in legs and arms and floating crits aren't in play), but the defense against AOE weapons that can ignore high TMMs by targeting hexes is extremely useful.
Reflective is perhaps most useful against Clans with their superb energy weapons, limited to nonexistent use of melee combat, and limited use of AOE weapons.
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“Your huge TMM is very impressive. Direct fire Long Tom needs 8s”
I admittedly don't use artillery much, but IIRC it's typically fired indirectly at a hex, correct? So a faster unit will have a wider potential movement area for it to be in for any given turn. I wouldn't claim it'd be invulerable to artillery, whether intentionally hit or just subject to random scattering. But it seems they'd be safer than artillery dialing in on a one legged Atlas, which is all I meant to say.
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Artillery in direct fire mode within 17 hexes is fired like a regular weapon
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Artillery in direct fire mode within 17 hexes is fired like a regular weapon
Which is why you don't hunt artillery with Reflective Armor. Against artillery at any other range Reflective is fine especially on fast units.
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I had multiple hidden units once with Long Tom cannons. Sometimes artillery hunts you
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I had multiple hidden units once with Long Tom cannons. Sometimes artillery hunts you
Thanks for the idea.
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Lol, I had a guy cussing a blue streak in MM once b/c he tried to rush my Bowman . . . with something that was also 5/8, want to say it was a Mad Dog. I went to meet him, the indirect fired A4 from the turn before hit the hex behind him while I had moved up to within 17 hexes . . . and the direct A4 hit his hex. Then the LRMs went in.
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I was running the Arrow IV variant of the Thunder Hawk in a game in a con when I noticed that the enemy had 5 Purifier squads crammed into three adjacent hexes, about 16 hexes from me.
And suddenly the enemy had no more battle armor.
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Special armors' largest issue is, IMO, their considerable BV cost. Think i was trying some idea out, swapping standard plate to reflective boosted BV nearly 20% (though SSW's BV calcs may be somewhat outdated). Considering that the armor types have their weaknesses, the BV costs feel too high.
As far as mechs and aerospace fighters go, there is very little out there that doesn't carry a laser as armaments. The fact that lasers are the most common weapons in the game that may receive a bonus to hit makes LR armor's additional cost seem right. It works against lasers, PPCs, and the damage and from plasma weapons and heat effects by all weapons and halving the net effects of them. The negative effects of the armor are more or less under the control of the player with the armor. 20% cost boost seems right for something that is going to halve all these effects from nearly half of the available weapons of the game.
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I had multiple hidden units once with Long Tom cannons. Sometimes artillery hunts you
There is something not right with you....
As far as mechs and aerospace fighters go, there is very little out there that doesn't carry a laser as armaments. The fact that lasers are the most common weapons in the game that may receive a bonus to hit makes LR armor's additional cost seem right. It works against lasers, PPCs, and the damage and from plasma weapons and heat effects by all weapons and halving the net effects of them. The negative effects of the armor are more or less under the control of the player with the armor. 20% cost boost seems right for something that is going to halve all these effects from nearly half of the available weapons of the game.
While not reflective, I played a game where the other player had a lot of PPCs. The aim was to teach him to use speed and distance to stay alive against my big, slow, short range monsters. But I also had a Quasimodo. I was nailing the Blue Shield checks and that 50% nerf to ER PPCs was driving him nuts. Against his LPPCs and snubbies at range, it was even better. Oh, HATED that Quasi...
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Lol, I used the Scapha with the pair of MVSPL . . . on a big wide open map against someone who had a pair of Timberwolf Bs (to fit with BV), and when he finally got a LPL hit against that Supercharge'd speedster . . . only to find it had reflec armor that shrugged off the hit.
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It also has ammo in its legs so if it blows a MASC check there's a chance it will put itself out of its misery.
One shot jump jets for free!
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One shot jump jets for free!
Is the jump distance increased if it leaves some of its original tonnage behind, like the legs?
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One shot jump jets for free!
I didn't list the mech last time given that it's a purposefully bad mech.
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Without going through 50 pages of previous thread. What about the Road Runner? Goes so fast it will destroy itself in a fall.
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If you’re not willing to live dangerously are you really alive?
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Without going through 50 pages of previous thread. What about the Road Runner? Goes so fast it will destroy itself in a fall.
Anything that causes it to fall likely means that it's going to die anyway.
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The Roadrunner is only bad for 'Mech combat. Or, bad for combat at all. Reasonable scout and possibly a raider, and it should not be doing anything else.
Ultralights aren't very good idea in general but as cheap recon platforms they are passable.
The Prey Seeker is perhaps more questionable, since the RELs it carriers kinda imply it is meant to be backstabbing reflec/hardened 'Mechs. If anything, it should be carrying an active probe, TAG, and maybe ECM and focus purely on scouting tasks.
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The Roadrunner is only bad for 'Mech combat. Or, bad for combat at all. Reasonable scout and possibly a raider, and it should not be doing anything else.
Ultralights aren't very good idea in general but as cheap recon platforms they are passable.
The Prey Seeker is perhaps more questionable, since the RELs it carriers kinda imply it is meant to be backstabbing reflec/hardened 'Mechs. If anything, it should be carrying an active probe, TAG, and maybe ECM and focus purely on scouting tasks.
I think it was brought up before but a lot of machines translate badly in game terms where in the actual universe they make sense. A scout on a three by three map is okay but will eventually run out of space. When an invading Cluster has the entire world to assault a bunch of scouts running kilometers ahead on the flanks is an excellent screen when they can disengage at more than twice the enemy’s speed. When the main battle comes slashing attacks will divert attention from the main force.
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I didn't list the mech last time given that it's a purposefully bad mech.
In the hands of a MegaMek bot, for sure :flame:. Give it to your typical player and it will suck as they'll never activate the TSM. Give it to someone creative and aggressive...well, I've really surprised a few people who scoffed at it on the table.
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One shot jump jets for free!
A-pods gone horribly wrong?
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Also, turkina
and the Nightstar mini as well with those wide spread arms
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In the hands of a MegaMek bot, for sure :flame:. Give it to your typical player and it will suck as they'll never activate the TSM. Give it to someone creative and aggressive...well, I've really surprised a few people who scoffed at it on the table.
Are we still talking Targe?
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The Roadrunner is only bad for 'Mech combat. Or, bad for combat at all. Reasonable scout and possibly a raider, and it should not be doing anything else.
Ultralights aren't very good idea in general but as cheap recon platforms they are passable.
The Prey Seeker is perhaps more questionable, since the RELs it carriers kinda imply it is meant to be backstabbing reflec/hardened 'Mechs. If anything, it should be carrying an active probe, TAG, and maybe ECM and focus purely on scouting tasks.
The idea of those small, blindingly fast recon mechs that can "walk" almost a mapsheet each turn starts to break down once FASAnomics kick in. Most of them are XXL machines, so cheap goes right out the window. :-(
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Are we still talking Targe?
Yup, the 2N.
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The idea of those small, blindingly fast recon mechs that can "walk" almost a mapsheet each turn starts to break down once FASAnomics kick in. Most of them are XXL machines, so cheap goes right out the window. :-(
But C-Bill cost has rarely been a limiting factor in the setting. And the Roadrunner is available to factions who really don't care that much.
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XXL engines are perfectly fine by the Dark Age unless one limits oneself to FASAnomic prices (in which case you get idiocy like X-pulses being more expensive than better Clan-tech, or even just XL engines being too costly really). I'm more inclined to use Warchest for costs if i need costs.
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Warchest is a decidedly better system for gameplay purposes.
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But C-Bill cost has rarely been a limiting factor in the setting. And the Roadrunner is available to factions who really don't care that much.
And also don't build vehicles, so there's an explanation for why they don't use a Savannah Master clone instead.
And don't RL militries use jeeps/SUV's for this sort of stuff?
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Why field a 75,000 C-Bill vehicle when you can build a MUCH more amusing 'Mech for 30,000,000 that offers essentially the same capabilities?
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Why field a 75,000 C-Bill vehicle when you can build a MUCH more amusing 'Mech for 30,000,000 that offers essentially the same capabilities?
this guy gets it
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And also don't build vehicles, so there's an explanation for why they don't use a Savannah Master clone instead.
And don't RL militries use jeeps/SUV's for this sort of stuff?
Depends . . . anything can be used for the purpose, but recon & FOs do tend to use humvee . . . but some forces will use light armored vehicles.
I love the Kruger and wish we had a version of it available for SW-era, but IMO it and the Ibex would typically be what you see out as recon.
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Mechs that use Stealth, Null Sig or Chameleon systems, but are set up with short range weapons....
Beowulf -X-7a
Jenner JR10-X
Mongoose -66GX
Scarecrow -F4, though that one may get a pass because the CLPS does work against its prey of choice, gropos.
Stealth -5X
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Nah, its to keep them from getting clipped until they are in their desired range . . . but its also why I think Stealth may be a better system for combat units. I can leave the stealth on until that last turn I am going to be running into point blank range, then switch the ECM to Ghost Targets. But that type of play also works better in pairs IMO, stooping on the target with one having ECM in Ghost and one in just plain ECM to mess up anyone who is trying to respond.
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Stealth designs with close range weapons are headhunters or ambushers. They use stealth to get in close, then murder their target with short range barrage, and then engage stealth and get out.
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Mechs that use Stealth, Null Sig or Chameleon systems, but are set up with short range weapons....
Beowulf -X-7a
Jenner JR10-X
Mongoose -66GX
Scarecrow -F4, though that one may get a pass because the CLPS does work against its prey of choice, gropos.
Stealth -5X
Eh, I can see it, in-universe. As scout units, they really don’t want to get into fights. If everything goes right, the enemy won’t know they’re even there. If everything goes wrong, then they cut the stealth systems so they don’t have to worry about the excess heat when duking it out. But combat should be the very last resort, as the use of Composite Structure in Jenner and Beowulf shows.
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Should be noted that many non-stealth armor stealth design are also very experimental, not really combat units but test-beds. Like the Jenner 10X, i think.
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Eh, I can see it, in-universe. As scout units, they really don’t want to get into fights. If everything goes right, the enemy won’t know they’re even there. If everything goes wrong, then they cut the stealth systems so they don’t have to worry about the excess heat when duking it out. But combat should be the very last resort, as the use of Composite Structure in Jenner and Beowulf shows.
I do giggle at the Quickdraw -8X that uses stealth armor to juice up its TSM, so it can carry 12 ton handheld weapons.
In that family of weird XTRO ideas, the Axman -6X and it's limited run cousin, the -6T. Similar hand held theme, no TSM this time. But 24+ tons of Thunderbolt 15 and ammo, that it can't use until after it drops the handheld gun, which if we are being honest, carries secondary or even tertiary weapons.
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Design decisions that don't make sense:
Handheld weapons and 'Mechs that are build around those even more so.
Think the Axeman and Quickdraw had somesense fluff about them being "budget" Omnis? How are they budget when they're filled with rare or prototype tech, and utilize weapons that add even bigger logistical snag than podded weapons?
Just complete nonsense all around.
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Yeah, handheld weapons are so limited in Battletech it doesn't make sense to try developing mechs around them. The only real use is to cram them with a bunch of Rocket Launchers for a big alpha strike to try and get some significant first-round damage or to add LRMs to a mech that's loaded with short range weaponry so it can make a couple shots while closing.
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it was the jihad and nukes were falling all over. everybody got a little crazy.
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Yeah, handheld weapons are so limited in Battletech it doesn't make sense to try developing mechs around them. The only real use is to cram them with a bunch of Rocket Launchers for a big alpha strike to try and get some significant first-round damage or to add LRMs to a mech that's loaded with short range weaponry so it can make a couple shots while closing.
On the other hand, you can pack quite a few AMS into a hand held weapon mount. If you expect to be fighting a force with some nasty LRM boats, have the techs weld up some hand held mounts with a ton of armor, a ton of ammo and as many AMS as can fit. Nothing ruins an LRM carrier's day like watching all 4 LRM salvos get degraded by AMS.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,27139.msg617615.html#msg617615 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,27139.msg617615.html#msg617615)
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that's... amazing
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And I'll have to check but I don't think it's allowed. Handhelds do work however if the weapons they contain are longer ranged then the ones your 'Mech mounts
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You don't think what's allowed?
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Stealth designs with close range weapons are headhunters or ambushers. They use stealth to get in close, then murder their target with short range barrage, and then engage stealth and get out.
Outside of CLPS and Null there is still sense in the majority of designs carrying close range weapons. The most obvious being you want to use the ECM to jam enemy electronics or use ECCM. Something the design simply won't do while the stealth armor is active. Ideally you are going to put a hill or terrain between you so that you can't take return fire. When you can't though it is likely you are going to have a need for shorter range weapons.
The Sha Yu on the other hand an example of things that make little sense in any of its configurations. It lacks the heat sinks to fire effectively unless you turn the stealth armor off with any version and one version has a C3 slave which will only work once the armor is turned off. Certainly the 4B has better armor protection and can handle the heat with its armor turned off, but it is a juggling act and not one I'd want to deal with
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I find the Sha Yu 2B quite usable. Stealth on, go to attack range (whatever your pilot's comfortable with i suppose), fire a turn or two, run away to cool down, repeat. Tricky, to be sure, and few infernos can ruin your day but Capellans live on the edge always...
Alternatively one might use stealth while going for a good firing spot, turn stealth off and attack, turn stealth back on and run away.
The 4B is certainly simpler to use. Get in close, turn stealth off, attack AND spot for C3 network (if you have one). The LRM is useful for, say, laying smoke screens or mines (assuming advanced rules in play, of course).
The 6B is the weird one for me. While the snubbies have nice short range, stealth would be useful at range 9 against many weapons.
EDIT Pity the 'Mech doesn't have mass for MASC, would've love it on the Sha Yu. EDIT actually, with some tweaks it might be possible...
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Supercharger might be better than MASC.
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You don't think what's allowed?
AMS in handheld weapons, and yep, their not allowed. Might have to raise a rules question, but it looks like Machine Gun Array's, One-Shot, and (i)Narc missile launchers might also be on the prohibited list from what you'd think would be allowed.
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The Sha Yu on the other hand an example of things that make little sense in any of its configurations. It lacks the heat sinks to fire effectively unless you turn the stealth armor off with any version and one version has a C3 slave which will only work once the armor is turned off. Certainly the 4B has better armor protection and can handle the heat with its armor turned off, but it is a juggling act and not one I'd want to deal with
The Sha Yu is one of the inner sphere’s best skirmishers from tro 3067 and any publication before. A mech that has enough heat sinks to perfectly sink all heat from its equipment is typically an inefficient design, not an efficient one.
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AMS in handheld weapons, and yep, their not allowed. Might have to raise a rules question, but it looks like Machine Gun Array's, One-Shot, and (i)Narc missile launchers might also be on the prohibited list from what you'd think would be allowed.
Uh, SCC, you asked the question back in 2013 and Xotl said AMS in a hand held was legit.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,27139.msg617615.html#msg617615
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Supercharger might be better than MASC.
Maybe but we're talking about 3060s tech.
Personally i'm not a fan of superchargers because they are more forgiving than MASC, replicating the gameplay function while being more or less better (especially for assault 'Mechs, where a SC weights less than MASC nearly always).
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There is something not right with you....
On the subject of Long Tom Cannons... Be glad the SLDF didn't have them and super heavies, you might have seen some super heavy King Crabs sporting 2 of them. iirc more range and more damage than the AC/20, probably same ammo load though.
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The Sha Yu is one of the inner sphere’s best skirmishers from tro 3067 and any publication before. A mech that has enough heat sinks to perfectly sink all heat from its equipment is typically an inefficient design, not an efficient one.
If you are planning to use the stealth armor then the 4b is the only one that makes sense because you are going to turn off the stealth armor when you get in weapons range. The other configurations feature er large lasers and SnPPCs that benefit from longer range where the stealth is best used. It doesn't have the heat sinks to fire the pair of weapons either at one time reliably with alternating fire. That is simply poor design.
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Nothing wrong with some overheating, the 'Mech doesn't even have anything explosive onboard.
Honestly, if it can't overheat, it is bad design as far as i'm concerned, means it doesn't have enough firepower.
EDIT Naturally excluding things like the Locust 1V that are recon and anti-infantry designs and simply can't pack enough firepower to heat up.
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Ah, now i remember some 'Mechs that are utterly nonsensical.
The Penetrator variants.
The basic 4D is a good trooper, though i find its bracket-fire nature utterly boring.
But its variants...
The 4F swaps the ER lasers for Artemis-enhanced LRM-10s. Why? The Artemis works only in direct fire, and the 'Mech gained only a couple of hexes extra range while losing damage concentration. And only two tons of ammo total, and reduced pulse laser array... ugh.
The 6M is just as stupid. Pulling armor and MPLs for extra heat sinks? Why? The 'Mech is a bracket-firing trooper, it needs the armor and doesn't need extra sinks unless it is in close combat for extended periods (which it probably should avoid and can with those jump jets).
The 6S is perhaps even more moronic. Pulling armor for ECM, really? Does the FedCom not have dedicated ECM carriers so that they needed to use a trooper for that purpose?
At least the 6T is smart.
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On the subject of Long Tom Cannons... Be glad the SLDF didn't have them and super heavies, you might have seen some super heavy King Crabs sporting 2 of them. iirc more range and more damage than the AC/20, probably same ammo load though.
The LTC has the same damage as an AC20, but in 5 point clusters. Though it also hits adjacent hexes so it's devastating to tightly grouped opponents.
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RIP infantry and buildings
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Nothing wrong with some overheating, the 'Mech doesn't even have anything explosive onboard.
Honestly, if it can't overheat, it is bad design as far as i'm concerned, means it doesn't have enough firepower.
The chance of an ammo explosion isn't the issue. It is the interaction of the heat the weapons produce in combination with the heat produced from the stealth armor. The net effect is speed of the design is being ****** by the heat. The best offense for the design is in the medium to long range where the stealth armor gets its benefits. The solution is a simple one, just use standard lasers rather than the bling of the ER lasers.
In the case of the 6B, TSM solves the majority of the problems heat causes ****** the Sha Yu's movement.
The 6S is perhaps even more moronic. Pulling armor for ECM, really? Does the FedCom not have dedicated ECM carriers so that they needed to use a trooper for that purpose?
There weren't that many early on. The MUL states it didn't enter service until 3059, but I feel that was a changed. I don't have the time to pull out my original 3055 TRO, but I believe it was referred to have been one of those original mods as well. Meaning it should have been earlier than 3059.
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the original 3055 phrases what became the canon variants as suggestions for changes rather than saying what is being produced in 3055.
(http://puu.sh/DXSa5/a3526e52c2.png)
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The chance of an ammo explosion isn't the issue. It is the interaction of the heat the weapons produce in combination with the heat produced from the stealth armor. The net effect is speed of the design is being ****** by the heat. The best offense for the design is in the medium to long range where the stealth armor gets its benefits. The solution is a simple one, just use standard lasers rather than the bling of the ER lasers.
In the case of the 6B, TSM solves the majority of the problems heat causes ****** the Sha Yu's movement.
The Sha Yu has speed to lose, so i'm not really worried. Stealth plus lasers is 34-36 depending on movement, minus 26 and final heat at 8 to 10, so down to 5/8 or 6/9 which is still OK in my eyes. Drop one laser next turn, we're maybe few points down depending on movement. At that point, i'd retreat and go cool down. So, up to 24 damage over two turns, maybe not a lot but my enemy probably had difficulties hitting me.
Then again, i might run to 7 hexes from target (ER laser max short which is better than most weapons) and just turn off stealth and unload all weapons, then engage stealth and run away and keep stealth on while finding a new attack position and direction.
When you say TSM, you mean that the 6B could use that? (Because it doesn't have it.) I'm not keen on TSM and stealth armor, too much BV bloat usually. It works at times to be sure, but i prefer only of those. The combo can be powerful but it requires a lot of work to make most of it.
Funny enough, the Sha Yu is cheaper in BV than an equivalent design with standard armor, due to heat inefficiency. I like that. Not by much, but depending how strictly one enforces BV limits every little bit might help in honing force composition.
the original 3055 phrases what became the canon variants as suggestions for changes rather than saying what is being produced in 3055.
The original was ComStar TRO right? I wonder if they're deliberately suggesting bad ideas or if their analysts are just idiots.
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Many of the variants from the original TRO 3055 were shockingly bad.
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If you are planning to use the stealth armor then the 4b is the only one that makes sense because you are going to turn off the stealth armor when you get in weapons range. The other configurations feature er large lasers and SnPPCs that benefit from longer range where the stealth is best used. It doesn't have the heat sinks to fire the pair of weapons either at one time reliably with alternating fire. That is simply poor design.
Goodness, by that standard, the aws-8q must be teh suck.
If all a player does is play megamek with map sheets that have crappy Los where you’re lucky to have even 10+ clear hexes in a line, then sure, the 2b sucks.
If playing with actual terrain, where Los really opens up, the 2b is awesome.
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Honestly, if it can't overheat, it is bad design as far as i'm concerned, means it doesn't have enough firepower.
If you're talking about a pair of backup ML, that's fine, but if you're talking the way 3025 designs tend(ed) to overheat, no.
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Honestly, if it can't overheat, it is bad design as far as i'm concerned, means it doesn't have enough firepower.
By that logic, the Jagermech JM6-DG, Mad Dog C, Annihilator C2, Fafnir FNR-5, and Hellstar all have incredibly insufficient firepower.
Really can't take statements like that seriously in a world where Gauss Rifles, Clan DHS, and Clan ERPPCs exist.
EDIT; Yes, the ANH-C2 can overheat, but let's be honest, you are barely using that ER Small enough for it to matter.
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Goodness, by that standard, the aws-8q must be teh suck.
If all a player does is play megamek with map sheets that have crappy Los where you’re lucky to have even 10+ clear hexes in a line, then sure, the 2b sucks.
If playing with actual terrain, where Los really opens up, the 2b is awesome.
First off, no need for sarcasm. Second lets assume for a moment that megmek doesn't exist and that people actually play on large board, like me. Whether it is digital or physical we are playing to the same standard. Now that we have both been adequately prepared the reason I didn't bring this comparison up is because it isn't an issue and isn't an appropriate comparison because:
The Awesome 8Q doesn't have stealth armor and thus 10 less points overall it has to manage.
Is 40 tons heavier
Has 97% armor capacity and will easily take (and is expected to) multiple hits from weapons that produce large damage.
In the bubble that is intro tech, or for that matter, even more advance tech games it carries 28 single heat sings which will 3-2-3 arrangement sustained for a modest portion of your game session.
The Sha Yu has speed to lose, so i'm not really worried.
That is exactly what we disagree about. If a mech is designed to a go a slower speed and/or use more weapons or heat sinks its built with it. The Sha Yu 2B and 6B armor protection is less than optimal and it is glaring because it is an issue with the location where the largest weapons are housed. A mech that is designed to have TMM and throwing in stealth should be a around a +4 or +5, not +2 or +3.
Stealth plus lasers is 34-36 depending on movement, minus 26 and final heat at 8 to 10, so down to 5/8 or 6/9 which is still OK in my eyes. Drop one laser next turn, we're maybe few points down depending on movement. At that point, i'd retreat and go cool down. So, up to 24 damage over two turns, maybe not a lot but my enemy probably had difficulties hitting me.
I don't doubt your tactics. I doubt them working 100% of the time. Any amount of broken or concentrated terrain is going to slow you down. The 2B simply can't take that much punishment. The 6B is a little better off but not much.
Then again, i might run to 7 hexes from target (ER laser max short which is better than most weapons) and just turn off stealth and unload all weapons, then engage stealth and run away and keep stealth on while finding a new attack position and direction.
So you are abandoning your earlier statement and/or expanding off that there is little sense in carrying weapons with smaller ranges that carry stealth systems at this point (?).
When you say TSM, you mean that the 6B could use that? (Because it doesn't have it.) I'm not keen on TSM and stealth armor, too much BV bloat usually. It works at times to be sure, but i prefer only of those. The combo can be powerful but it requires a lot of work to make most of it.
To this point BV hasn't been a point in this discussion and it is going to go off the rails if we dive into the full depth of it here. So much so it would require another thread. So outside of the BV bubble there are sound reasons for it which can easily start and stop the positive step of forcing you into making what may end up be poor firing decisions and not be excessively slowed down in combat by them. The other benefits to damage are just gravy.
Funny enough, the Sha Yu is cheaper in BV than an equivalent design with standard armor, due to heat inefficiency. I like that. Not by much, but depending how strictly one enforces BV limits every little bit might help in honing force composition.
The inefficiency in BV to me is negligible. It's a poorly designed mech for its intended combat role based on the choice of weapons included. The idea of replacing the ER Large Lasers with standard models apparently exists in BD:YZ.
The original was ComStar TRO right? I wonder if they're deliberately suggesting bad ideas or if their analysts are just idiots.
I chalk it up to new shiny tech that simply wasn't implemented well. Plenty of that exists from 3050 and 3055. If the Panther is flaming bag of crap bad then the Sha Yu is the kitty litter needs to be changed bad.
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By that logic, the Jagermech JM6-DG, Mad Dog C, Annihilator C2, Fafnir FNR-5, and Hellstar all have incredibly insufficient firepower.
Mad Dog C does have insufficient firepower when compared to other configurations of the same mech. The 12 double heat sinks are wasted on a mech that can only generate 14 heat under the absolute worst conditions (running with two engine hits and alpha strike).
Re jm-6dg, same argument about way over sinked.
Don’t have time to look at the others.
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If you're talking about a pair of backup ML, that's fine, but if you're talking the way 3025 designs tend(ed) to overheat, no.
A couple of backup MLs? What is this, a budget militia? MORE FIREPOWER.
By that logic, the Jagermech JM6-DG, Mad Dog C, Annihilator C2, Fafnir FNR-5, and Hellstar all have incredibly insufficient firepower.
Really can't take statements like that seriously in a world where Gauss Rifles, Clan DHS, and Clan ERPPCs exist.
I'll obviously discount any designs that can't actually generate enough heat to be even close to net 0. Then again, ignoring those meant for recon or not having payload for armament, i don't really care for most designs that can't generate enough heat, they're either bad or boring usually.
I don't care for most dual+ Gauss designs at all, they're too boring. Powerful, yes, but often incredibly inefficient, especially if they're Clan designs since ERPPCs are basically better option always. The Mad Dog C is a perfect example, it is quite terrible configuration. Slap a pair of ERPPCs and extra weapons and few heat sinks there and it is far better.
I'll give pass to some like the Tian-zong since it uses stealth and dual-Gauss well while having extra weapons, or the Pillager's Capellan variants which sport stealth armor and extra weapons (the original Star League Gauss model is meh).
Hellstar indeed isn't very good in my opinion, spending far too much weight on heat sinks, if the Hellstar 2 didn't exists, i'd have to pull some to add some ER medium lasers. Hellstar 2 is a massive improvement with its TarComp, it is a 4/6 assault so it can afford a bit of heat to slow down, while the TarComp improves its prowess at range.
JagerMech DG is utter shite, it has way too little armor for its firepower, it will die before it can make good use of that.
The Fafnir gets a pass because it uses dual-HGRs, which have incredible firepower at close range, these are rare enough. But there are many other designs i'd rather use.
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So, for the sha yu 2b, can I see an argument for replacing one of the er large lasers for a standard? Sure.
Both of them? No way.
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I don't doubt your tactics. I doubt them working 100% of the time. Any amount of broken or concentrated terrain is going to slow you down. The 2B simply can't take that much punishment. The 6B is a little better off but not much.
I doubt my tactics always, and i usually don't bother to think ahead but live in the moment, just the way i roll. Way more fun that way.
Naturally terrain will dictate tactics. May need to do something else, whatever, the Sha Yu has options, might use it as a TAG platform if nothing else. Plus i very much intent to have something that will attract more attention than the Sha Yu, stealth's just an insurance.
So you are abandoning your earlier statement and/or expanding off that there is little sense in carrying weapons with smaller ranges that carry stealth systems at this point (?).
No? I like ER lasers because they offer range but also good short range brackets, i can use either to my advantage depending on the situation.
Stealth offers options: on for long range sniping, on while approaching to close range or getting away but off while attacking, on for additional protection from other foes (am i being shot from far away?). Stealth is flexible, especially when additional ECM rules are in play.
The Sha Yu has flexible weapons with flexible armor.
To this point BV hasn't been a point in this discussion and it is going to go off the rails if we dive into the full depth of it here. So much so it would require another thread. So outside of the BV bubble there are sound reasons for it which can easily start and stop the positive step of forcing you into making what may end up be poor firing decisions and not be excessively slowed down in combat by them. The other benefits to damage are just gravy.
Fine, no BV.
No TSM either here though, since the Sha Yu is what it is. I certainly wouldn't be retrofitting TSM to most designs, logistical and economical issue, and possibly a maintenance one to boot.
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I don't care for most dual+ Gauss designs at all, they're too boring. Powerful, yes, but often incredibly inefficient, especially if they're Clan designs since ERPPCs are basically better option always. The Mad Dog C is a perfect example, it is quite terrible configuration. Slap a pair of ERPPCs and extra weapons and few heat sinks there and it is far better.
I'll give pass to some like the Tian-zong since it uses stealth and dual-Gauss well while having extra weapons, or the Pillager's Capellan variants which sport stealth armor and extra weapons (the original Star League Gauss model is meh).
Hellstar indeed isn't very good in my opinion, spending far too much weight on heat sinks, if the Hellstar 2 didn't exists, i'd have to pull some to add some ER medium lasers. Hellstar 2 is a massive improvement with its TarComp, it is a 4/6 assault so it can afford a bit of heat to slow down, while the TarComp improves its prowess at range.
JagerMech DG is utter shite, it has way too little armor for its firepower, it will die before it can make good use of that.
The Fafnir gets a pass because it uses dual-HGRs, which have incredible firepower at close range, these are rare enough. But there are many other designs i'd rather use.
-I don't see how something that literally has no heat concerns, little ammo concerns, and can fire from extreme ranges can be classified as 'ineffecient' compared to something that overheats like someone undergoing a hot flash in Qatar on a 70% humidity summer day while coated in three thermal blankets.
- I do agree the C would be better with two ERPPCs, but the C's still got considerable firepower and the movement speed to dictate its distance against IS units. Slowing it down by making it crap the bed out of heatstroke would just make it worse.
- I feel like you don't understand what made the Hellstar Standard so good. It's the fact it can put four headcaps, a turn, downrange and it absolutely does not have to stop firing. Ever. It might have to slow down sometimes, but unlike the 2, you don't have a fourth ERPPC just for show.
- Jagermech DG is why you have screening forces. It's a Gauss Sniper, so why you'd think it's appropriate to have it anywhere near the fight it's supporting to the point of where its armor is a real concern is completely beyond me.
EDIT; I'm not terrified of overheating, by the way. Most of my favorite 'mechs rely on bracket firing or overheating (Black Knights Ian and Ross, Banshee 8S, Berserker D4) or simply fire obscene amounts of lead/plasma downrange (Fafnir 6U and Peacekeeper 1B). But I think considering a design being 'inefficient' despite having an incredibly efficient cooling setup and providing consistent, considerable, and unblemished firepower is a garbage assessment.
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Eh. If it gets unlucky/focused, yeah, but that's why we have screening forces.
The problem with the Gauss Jager is that it is relatively slow and has poor armor yet a lot of firepower, it becomes focused quickly and easily because "why not kill it because it is easy and dangerous"? At least that's how it goes for me. And it is what i do.
I'll take something else for the battle value.
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The problem with the Gauss Jager is that it is relatively slow and has poor armor yet a lot of firepower, it becomes focused quickly and easily because "why not kill it because it is easy and dangerous"? At least that's how it goes for me. And it is what i do.
I'll take something else for the battle value.
If the other player's any good, you'll get punished for it in kind. :D
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-I don't see how something that literally has no heat concerns, little ammo concerns, and can fire from extreme ranges can be classified as 'ineffecient' compared to something that overheats like someone undergoing a hot flash in Qatar on a 70% humidity summer day while coated in three thermal blankets.
OK, maybe inefficient is wrong term, but for a game about giant robots duking it out and heat is part of the game design, freezer designs feel like they're part of some other game, not BattleTechy enough. Not fun, and not-fun is bad.
EDIT Admittedly in-universe that isn't necessarily bad design.
At very least a design should be using its heat capacity when it can. Hot environments, i'll just reduce rate of fire but i'll like having extra for the moments when i need something dead now. True, a freezer design can keep up its max rate of fire constantly anywhere anytime, but where's the fun in that? Boring as hell. Plus they can't ever take fun risks like alpha strike that can shut them down.
If i want something with no heat concerns, i'll use vehicles.
- I feel like you don't understand what made the Hellstar Standard so good. It's the fact it can put four headcaps, a turn, downrange and it absolutely does not have to stop firing. Ever. It might have to slow down sometimes, but unlike the 2, you don't have a fourth ERPPC just for show.
I perfectly understand what makes it good. I just don't agree that it is good-good. Plus i have issue in principle with super-optimized 'Mechs, and the Hellstar is the example of optimization among canon 'Mechs. I'm not sure the 2 can be called as optimized, but it sure as hell is far more interesting.
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My phrase for Hellstar, Rifleman IIC and similar is noob-hammer. They are, however, beatable. The current BPV formula isn't kind to them, among other things.
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Yeah, the big problem with the Hellstar or Rifleman IIC is that they're just really boring to play: you march it into position, then hammer the Alpha Strike button every round.
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Running a little hot is fine, especially for hit and runners or bracket builds. But I'm baffled by mechs where there's no firing pattern which could make overheating useful, like the Warhawk Prime. The Warhawk's 20 heat sinks mean it already runs warm just firing 3 ERPPCs. The fourth one is just dead weight. It can't fire without a fairly decent risk of failing an ammo explosion or shutdown roll. Even if avoids either of those two outcomes, it still basically has to sit there doing nothing thanks to -4 MP and +3 to hit.
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That's probably why it's so rare to see the Masakari Prime in games. Most people seem to take the C, followed by the A and D.
And while we're on that mech, what the heck is with the B? Two SRM 6 pods sharing five tons of ammo. What the heck? At no point should you have a mech where the tonnage devoted to ammo exceeds the tonnage devoted to the weapons used to fire that ammo, with a possible exception allowed if it's a single SRM 4.
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That's probably why it's so rare to see the Masakari Prime in games. Most people seem to take the C, followed by the A and D.
And while we're on that mech, what the heck is with the B? Two SRM 6 pods sharing five tons of ammo. What the heck? At no point should you have a mech where the tonnage devoted to ammo exceeds the tonnage devoted to the weapons used to fire that ammo, with a possible exception allowed if it's a single SRM 4.
It does allow a great variety of alternate ammo types though, and is great for campaigns.
Ruger
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And while we're on that mech, what the heck is with the B? Two SRM 6 pods sharing five tons of ammo. What the heck? At no point should you have a mech where the tonnage devoted to ammo exceeds the tonnage devoted to the weapons used to fire that ammo, with a possible exception allowed if it's a single SRM 4.
You have to do this with some machine guns.
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It does allow a great variety of alternate ammo types though, and is great for campaigns.
Ruger
How many ammo types were even available to it when it was introduced (both in and out of universe)? Under Total Warfare rules it can use Infernos, but those weren't available to SRM 6 pods when TRO 3050 was written up.
The Clans don't have a huge amount of alternate munitions available to them in the first place, especially for SRMs: ARADs (developed long after the Masakari B was), Harpoon Missiles (hilarious, but why would you?), Heat Seeking (okay, given the number of Clan mechs that have ridiculous heat issues, these actually could make sense), or the ubiquitous Smoke rounds (rather dezgra for an assault mech, don't you think?).
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You have to do this with some machine guns.
You do not, since machine gun ammo can be loaded in 1/2 ton increments.
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You do not, since machine gun ammo can be loaded in 1/2 ton increments.
And some machine guns weigh half that.
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Fortunately, most 'Mechs mount at least a pair of MGs, especially Clan 'Mechs.
Unfortunately, most Clan 'Mechs mount only a pair of MGs with full ton of MG ammo, the Mad Cat Prime comes to mind, as does the Gladiator Prime.
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And some machine guns weigh half that.
Clan MGs weight .25 tons, yes, but since fractional accounting is no longer done it means that all Clan mechs that use machine guns do so in pairs. There are still a few Clan mechs, as Empyrus notes, that mount full tons of ammo, but most of them were 3050 mechs that were designed before MG ammo could be mounted in 1/2 tons.
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Running a little hot is fine, especially for hit and runners or bracket builds. But I'm baffled by mechs where there's no firing pattern which could make overheating useful, like the Warhawk Prime. The Warhawk's 20 heat sinks mean it already runs warm just firing 3 ERPPCs. The fourth one is just dead weight. It can't fire without a fairly decent risk of failing an ammo explosion or shutdown roll. Even if avoids either of those two outcomes, it still basically has to sit there doing nothing thanks to -4 MP and +3 to hit.
And yet the Prime has an LRM -10!! For no reason whatsoever! People would say ‘oh take alternate ammo like Smoke around a or Thunder LRM’s’ .... why bother when you you have FOUR ER PPC’s for cover.
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The Masakari Prime embodies the Clan ethos of dueling pretty well i think. It has firepower to quickly end a battle, some overheating (OK, pretty large but a Clan Warrior needs a sauna every now and then) is a small cost for that. Not to mention due to Clan firepower, damage accrues quickly and having a spare weapon may be useful. And having dual-PPCs in arms allows for incredibly wide field of fire while retaining strong firepower on either side.
The LRM is useful for Thunder rounds (the Clans do use those even in trials and duels), or just subbing for one ERPPC when cooling is in order.
I never warmed to other Masakari configs. The A wastes heat sink capacity though it is pretty good otherwise, and the B's even worse in that regard before its excessive ammunition. The C's OK though i really wish it had ERPPC and LPL per arm rather than PPCs in one and the LPLs in the other, and ultimately it doesn't feel different enough from the Prime.
The F's funny and i kinda like it because of that, good consistent long-range firepower despite some WTF decisions (then again, it is canonization of MW4 Masakari, hence the weirdness).
EDIT Come to think of it, the E's kinda neat. Should use it sometime.
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In the hands of a MegaMek bot, for sure :flame:. Give it to your typical player and it will suck as they'll never activate the TSM. Give it to someone creative and aggressive...well, I've really surprised a few people who scoffed at it on the table.
Teach me your secrets, sensei. :o
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The Masakari Prime can fire 3 ER PPCs one turn, and the next fire 2 of them plus the LRM-10. It'll be heat neutral except for movement. With torso twisting you've got 360 degree firepower with at least 2 ER PPCs. And if you really really want to, you can shut yourself down by blazing away with everything, though I'd suggest waiting until your LRM ammo is gone before you do that. While the 3 PPC/2 PPC + LRM combo will cause you to lose a movement point every other turn, I generally park Masakaris in heavy woods the first chance I get.
The Masakari B looks like it's designed for Solaris rules. The time frame would be about right, the Solaris boxed set was published the year after TRO 3050, so maybe they were already working on it and knew what direction they were going. Clan SRMs have a recharge time of zero, so in Battletech terms they'd be able to fire 4 times a turn. The large amount of ammo, plus being way over-sinked would make sense if your SRMs were shooting so much faster.
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The Masakari Prime can fire 3 ER PPCs one turn, and the next fire 2 of them plus the LRM-10. It'll be heat neutral except for movement. With torso twisting you've got 360 degree firepower with at least 2 ER PPCs. And if you really really want to, you can shut yourself down by blazing away with everything, though I'd suggest waiting until your LRM ammo is gone before you do that. While the 3 PPC/2 PPC + LRM combo will cause you to lose a movement point every other turn, I generally park Masakaris in heavy woods the first chance I get.
The Prime would still have been better if it exchanged the LRM for something without ammo, so it can fire all 4 PPCs without the risk of ammo explosion. Say, something like the C with the lasers exchanged for PPCs.
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The Prime also has 360 degree coverage with all its PPCs, since it can arm-flip.
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The Prime would still have been better if it exchanged the LRM for something without ammo, so it can fire all 4 PPCs without the risk of ammo explosion. Say, something like the C with the lasers exchanged for PPCs.
So what? The topic isn't "designs that are not perfectly optimized". The topic is "design decisions that make no sense".
Yeah, the Masakari would be better if it carried 3 more heat sinks and just dropped the LRM. Then it could walk and fire 3 ER PPCs every turn. But at the end of the day, there are only so many optimized designs. The ultimate evolution of the Masakari is the Hellstar. And when you say "this doesn't make sense", what you're really saying is "why isn't this a Hellstar?"
There's a legend that the Masakari was originally supposed to carry 4 Large Pulse Lasers, and they got changed to PPCs because holy crap that would have been too nasty. With the new infantry rules, the LRM can carry flechette ammo, meaning the pilot isn't wasting his time killing two guys per PPC blast. I think having some variety in what your mech can do is valuable, even if it isn't perfectly optimized for one role.
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So what? The topic isn't "designs that are not perfectly optimized". The topic is "design decisions that make no sense".
Yeah, the Masakari would be better if it carried 3 more heat sinks and just dropped the LRM. Then it could walk and fire 3 ER PPCs every turn. But at the end of the day, there are only so many optimized designs. The ultimate evolution of the Masakari is the Hellstar. And when you say "this doesn't make sense", what you're really saying is "why isn't this a Hellstar?"
Nowhere have I stated that I wanted the Warhawk Prime to be be a Hellstar. I can fully appreciate designs that can ride the heat curve. Penetrator or Nova Prime? Go nuts. But in my opinion, the Warhawk doesn't qualify as that. It just doesn't have the kind of granularity in controlling how heat is generated that makes any of it worthwhile. You either have 6 tons of dead weight (or 7 if you count the extra ton for the TarComp), or suicide by heat.
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I do apologize for the same as above: my comment was less of a mech design disaster and more of a Mechs personal WTF moment on the Warhawk directly.
I see the idea behind the firing sequences and the idea of Thunders. To me it seemed like a waste: I’ve got Missile designs who can do so much more with Thunder LRM’s than my Quad PPC design. I want my Assault mech to assault something: let that freeborn piloting the Naga or Bane deal with fire support. And only being able to use three quarters of my guns effectively is fine when I’m torso twisting or arm flipping : but again I want to assault something big and smash it to pieces. The Prime doesn’t need a torso bomb even if it comes with free CASE.
Now that enough about Mechs individual flaws and onto Mechs that are terrible: how about that UrbanMech? ;)
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I do apologize for the same as above: my comment was less of a mech design disaster and more of a Mechs personal WTF moment on the Warhawk directly.
I think most people go through that moment of disappointment when they realize that a big chunk of the Warhawk's firepower isn't usable. Either that or relief at the same revelation if they're innersphere surats.
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UrbanMech makes sense as a budget urban defense unit. As urban defense unit, it works OK, it has a big gun and can jump around. Is it ideal? No, but then again it is just a budget thing.
For more fancy urban combat, you get a Wyvern or Osprey.
The Urbie's variants are mixed bag though.
The R60L variant is pretty bad, trading away that armor is a mistake, it is not mobile enough to make use of that AC/20.
The R63 suffers from not removing the extra heat sink for something else but then again it is 3050s upgrade, and far from the worst offence in that category.
The R68 variant is hilarious with its MRM-30. It does what original does but better.
The R69 tries to pack in too heavy a weapon and trades away armor, not good. The UAC/10 isn't bad in itself, this is just a wrong place for it.
The R70 is an improvement to the original in all ways but cooling capacity.
The R80 is one of the extremely few 'Mechs where i actually don't mind IJJs (elsewhere, it is instant blacklist), plus it works OK within the Urbie's design parameters.
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The Urbie's variants are mixed bag though.
The R68 variant is hilarious with its MRM-30. It does what original does but better.
If you see an urbie with a big missile pod, make sure it's one of these and then shudder with relief, as you just dodged Davy Crockett.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=45050.msg1038093#msg1038093
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Yeah. I left that out because 1) It is a joke, 2) it is good, 3) it is a joke no one except the joker is laughing at.
There's an Urbie with hardened armor too, haven't gotten around copying its stats to SSW (and can't be bothered to look it up on MML).
Let's see...
Yes, XTRO Republic II. The R93.
This thing's hilarious, 12 tons of hardened armor, a plasma rifle. And it has double heat sinks, with the funny fluff noting that there's no 60-rated engine in production with double heat sinks so Cappies must be manually modifying the engines lol
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The Urbanmech is perfect for what it is designed for, cheap city defense. The GOL-3M, however, makes no sense...
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The Urbanmech is perfect for what it is designed for, cheap city defense. The GOL-3M, however, makes no sense...
Yeah, well, it is one of those 3050 'Mechs...
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But it stands out as a stinker even for the era.
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There should be another thread for “TRO 3050 Variants That Were Good?!?!”
But it stands out as a stinker even for the era.
Someone has to be the worst
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I have to wonder if the designer was playing with some kind of optional or house rule that allowed to shoot MGs far, far more than they usually would.
Or if the designer thought MGs granted 20 shots per ton.
Or if they had actually intended more MGs or Gauss ammo but made a mistake or someone else copied info incorrectly. (Given that FASA wasn't big on editing from what i hear, i reckon this could've happened.)
Or maybe whoever was in charge of the project really hated quads.
There should be another thread for “TRO 3050 Variants That Were Good?!?!”
Sure, there's quite a few that are OK, and several that are very good.
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really, the design that makes no sense is the Stalker's hip assembly. unless someone decided it needed big oval tassets.
The R60L variant is pretty bad, trading away that armor is a mistake, it is not mobile enough to make use of that AC/20.
the R60L is an AC/20 that can jump. you don't move in with it, you hide it around a corner they feel safe ignoring and then hop behind a conveniently placed waffle house so you can waddle away. really if you use Urbies and the other guy won't allow double blind rules, you have to ask yourself if you're using them right.
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ooops wrong thread
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And while we're on that mech, what the heck is with the B? Two SRM 6 pods sharing five tons of ammo. What the heck? At no point should you have a mech where the tonnage devoted to ammo exceeds the tonnage devoted to the weapons used to fire that ammo, with a possible exception allowed if it's a single SRM 4.
We definitely went down this road already.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63696.msg1466103#msg1466103 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63696.msg1466103#msg1466103)
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So, for the sha yu 2b, can I see an argument for replacing one of the er large lasers for a standard? Sure.
Both of them? No way.
It makes quite a bit more sense to swap both rather than just 1. The loss of range is less of an issue if you are going to get closer to the target to shoot at it anyhow. Heat's better controlled and you can continue to shoot and fire both all you want. If you swap only one you are going to find yourself either firing 2-1 or slowed down which isn't my preference for mech that its biggest damage dealing weapons are in the arms that have insufficient armor. Assuming you are using the TAG for something useful you have to be a 15 hexes or less. The swap is a no brainer.
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It makes quite a bit more sense to swap both rather than just 1.
If one claims to understand how bracket firing works, but cannot understand how to employ a sha yu 2b, I guess we shall have to agree to disagree about whether the sha yu 2b qualifies as a mech design decision that makes no sense.
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There's a legend that the Masakari was originally supposed to carry 4 Large Pulse Lasers, and they got changed to PPCs because holy crap that would have been too nasty. With the new infantry rules, the LRM can carry flechette ammo, meaning the pilot isn't wasting his time killing two guys per PPC blast.
I'm almost wondering if we need sub threads for "mech designs that didn't make sense back in the day, but are better thanks to rule changes."
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We definitely went down this road already.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63696.msg1466103#msg1466103 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=63696.msg1466103#msg1466103)
With 55 pages on this topic, there's bound to be instances of people not remembering everything.
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With 55 pages on this topic, there's bound to be instances of people not remembering everything.
i don't remember what i had for dinner two days ago. and i cooked
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What irks me about the GOL-3M is it requires little adjustment to become a solid fire support platform. I get that Marik isn't supposed to have nice things, but a GOL-3Mr would have been a nice change to having theLight Gauss Rifle spam of Civil War and Jihad era designs.
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Nice things would ruin our distressed hipster chic dumpster fire aesthetic
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If all a player does is play megamek with map sheets that have crappy Los where you’re lucky to have even 10+ clear hexes in a line, then sure, the 2b sucks.
If playing with actual terrain, where Los really opens up, the 2b is awesome.
MM can use BT maps or custom ones . . . I make my 'basic' maps 32x32 which is 3x3 of BT sized maps, and for me works out nicely to a square klick, or close enough. But yeah . . . terrain will dictate tactics, unless your name is Custer and you think taking a hovertank company into a heavily wooded region and constantly order flank speed is a good idea.
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32x32 is slightly smaller than 2x2 BT mapsheets (which is 32x34)
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If you want an interesting fight, take a look at the Desert Sinkhole maps. Nothing to keep you from shooting from one of the map to the other. But there's cover.... It's weird.
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The Goliath 3M is a weird one. I tend to assume that it's just a misprint that nobody ever fixed, and that it's really supposed to have 2 tons of Gauss ammo and only one ton of MG ammo.
But if I've got to accept the design as-is, then I'd say it's probably meant for anti-insurgency work. Maybe they thought they needed more machine gun ammo because they get assigned to garrison duty all the time? Imagine the Goliath walking through the woods like a Star Wars AT-AT. It picks up some movement in the trees, and just stands there and opens fire at that area for a good minute and a half. The mechwarrior then figures that whatever happened to be there is dead, and he moves on. We call this the ED-209 solution. In a situation like that, carrying lots and lots of ammo for your machine gun makes sense. Basically you'd have a souped up, high tech version for insurgency work because some Duke wanted it that way.
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Theoretically possible, but mostly it just fits with the fact that almost everything in 3050 has only a single ton of gauss ammo.
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The Goliath 3M is a weird one. I tend to assume that it's just a misprint that nobody ever fixed, and that it's really supposed to have 2 tons of Gauss ammo and only one ton of MG ammo.
But if I've got to accept the design as-is, then I'd say it's probably meant for anti-insurgency work. Maybe they thought they needed more machine gun ammo because they get assigned to garrison duty all the time? Imagine the Goliath walking through the woods like a Star Wars AT-AT. It picks up some movement in the trees, and just stands there and opens fire at that area for a good minute and a half. The mechwarrior then figures that whatever happened to be there is dead, and he moves on. We call this the ED-209 solution. In a situation like that, carrying lots and lots of ammo for your machine gun makes sense. Basically you'd have a souped up, high tech version for insurgency work because some Duke wanted it that way.
Designating a long-range fire support platform for anti-infantry work is a poster child for "mech design decisions that make no sense.
If the Goliath ever gets into a situation where it can use its machine guns, either you as its pilot or you as that pilot´s commander have made a big mistake.
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Especially given that the Goliath was one of the rarest mechs in existence at the time.
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Were the 3050 rifleman variants any good? I’ve never taken a decent look at the unseen.
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Were the 3050 rifleman variants any good? I’ve never taken a decent look at the unseen.
The 5M is... well, it is a Rifleman. Still low ammo, though range is better thanks to UACs. A bit more armor, lasers are the same as ever, but this thing doesn't have the heat issues the original has. XLFE though, but then again for the role that's OK.
Decent thing, not stellar but not one of those terrible 3050 upgrades.
The alternative is the 5D. Twin ERPPCs in place of ACs but otherwise retains the old Rifleman armament. More heat sinks and armor than the 5M.
Not bad at all, though i don't really see it as a Rifleman anymore, don't care for flashbulb Riflemans.
EDIT The Rifleman lineup is pretty OK for most part, no outright duds unless one counts the original.
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32x32 is slightly smaller than 2x2 BT mapsheets (which is 32x34)
Yeah, I was thinking of the 3x3 maps I was recently using which gets 9 square klicks.
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What irks me about the GOL-3M is it requires little adjustment to become a solid fire support platform.
Most of the designs in TRO 3050 need little adjustment to be solid. ;)
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Most of the designs in TRO 3050 need little adjustment to be solid. ;)
Even the some vehicle designs are pretty sketchy. Although to be fair, the two most WTF vehicle choices in TRO 3050 are also in TRO 2750.
Magi. 70 tons, decent armor and speed but only 3 medium lasers, only one of which can fire on a given target at a time.
Puma. Broadside mounted LRM 20's. Why not a pair of 15's in the turret?
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Puma. Broadside mounted LRM 20's.
I suspect some designers were working from art and didn't quite get what "side arc" meant.
Like, take the Challenger and Peregrine, both mount forwarding-pointing but side-mounted SRMs... so rules-wise both are designated as having side-arc SRMs...
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IIRC the Puma's fluff even says the LRMs fire forward?
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IIRC the Puma's fluff even says the LRMs fire forward?
they're fluffed how sponson turrets basically work now (TRO 2750 pg 118). the 3050U rewrite (to avoid having to add sponson turrets) says that SLDF commanders would employ puma lances in diamond formations so that the LRMs created overlapping fields of fire (TRO 3050U pg 182)
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Even the some vehicle designs are pretty sketchy. Although to be fair, the two most WTF vehicle choices in TRO 3050 are also in TRO 2750.
Magi. 70 tons, decent armor and speed but only 3 medium lasers, only one of which can fire on a given target at a time.
Puma. Broadside mounted LRM 20's. Why not a pair of 15's in the turret?
I'm going off REALLY old memory here, but I think the problem is edition changes. Remember, the rules for vehicles at the time were citytech I
IIRC, side arc used to include up to the line of hexed directly in front of the vehicle, sorta like AERODYNE FIRING ARCS on p236, TW. If you could line up the Puma or Maji perfectly, you could hit with both side arcs at the same time.
So yeah, that layout made sense, especially since the Puma was supposed to attack immobile fortifications
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If a weapon is not mounted in a turret, it will have a fixed field of fire in the direction it is mounted on the vehicle. This arc of fire is 120 degrees wide.
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The forward firing arcs on Mechs are 120 degrees wide, but cover three hex facings. They sure aren't 180 degrees (that'd be the front damage zone). It's pretty ambiguous whether they were supposed to get the front hex.
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that's why i posted it without comment because i had no idea what it was supposed to mean
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I'd assume they radiate thus:
(https://i.imgur.com/EIbG7tb.png)
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If you have access to CT1, check in the construction section. I'm betting there is something on mounting directions.
I haven't looked at the book since I got Battletech Compendium, so really old memories.
edit - if anyone has original 2750 it might be worth a check to see if there was a specification to front-right and front-left. that's giving me a brain-tickle too.
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That's not 120 degrees though; it forms an acute triangle. It's less than 90 degrees, even.
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That's not 120 degrees though; it forms an acute triangle. It's less than 90 degrees, even.
Yeah, well, given how unclear it is, i assumed by 120 degrees they meant two hex sides (since one side is 60 degrees). Logical? Maybe not, but then again, this is FASA...
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(https://i.imgur.com/PybhRov.png)
I suppose closer to 120 degrees could be this, with every other skipped along the green lines.
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That would be closer, yes. It also overlaps pretty heavily with the front mounted weapons in such a way that they're not totally useless.
I think "two side hex faces and the front hex face" also accomplishes a reasonable facsimile of 120 degrees while also making side mounted weapons downright a good idea. But such is lost to the sands of time.
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That would be closer, yes. It also overlaps pretty heavily with the front mounted weapons in such a way that they're not totally useless.
I think "two side hex faces and the front hex face" also accomplishes a reasonable facsimile of 120 degrees while also making side mounted weapons downright a good idea. But such is lost to the sands of time.
consider how you'd do the front facing if that's right. because the same line of text would apply to it.
I've also got a brain-tickle about original 2750 specifying front-right and front-left. Could very well be wrong, though.
edit - under current rules both puma and maji have stupid setups. not gonna deny that.
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I’m having difficulty with what role the THE-N fills, with the rule set of when it was introduced. Anybody else have that problem?
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I’m having difficulty with what role the THE-N fills, with the rule set of when it was introduced. Anybody else have that problem?
It's a 20 ton mech with a light fire support role and is better armored then a Stinger or Wasp that the house lords would utilize and probably face off against. It isn't all that fast, but 6/9 for the era is fair. Obviously a Sling is better for that sort of thing, but house armies won't have them.
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Okay, two mechs from the Dark Age I have issues with:
First up, the Gun.
I get what they're trying to do with it, but why the heck would you want an infantry support mech that is a mere 20 tons and moves that slow? It's unable to mount much armor, an Inner Sphere Large Laser goes internal anywhere on it, and yet at 5/8 it's at risk of being outrun by some heavy mechs. Seems like you'd be stuck hoping for deployment on planets where the enemy is unable to field combat vehicles like Vedetes or even Scorpions, much less actual Battlemechs.
Second: the Dark Age Firestarter.
Simply put, it's got far too many flamers and lacks the speed to disengage or the firepower to protect itself if it ever actually finds itself up against another mech.
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I’m having difficulty with what role the THE-N fills, with the rule set of when it was introduced. Anybody else have that problem?
Same as the Hornet and Firefly. Minimal weight, lasers, token long range gun.
You have to remember, there aren't a lot of long range weapons in introtech. Most of them are heavy. You want range and low weight? LRM5. It's the equivalent of the AC/5 on the wolverine, there to keep people honest.
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First up, the Gun.
I get what they're trying to do with it, but why the heck would you want an infantry support mech that is a mere 20 tons and moves that slow? It's unable to mount much armor, an Inner Sphere Large Laser goes internal anywhere on it, and yet at 5/8 it's at risk of being outrun by some heavy mechs. Seems like you'd be stuck hoping for deployment on planets where the enemy is unable to field combat vehicles like Vedetes or even Scorpions, much less actual Battlemechs.
I've actually had success with the Gun in battlemech only fights before by having it hang in the backline, but that was with the HPPC variant. I was using it as a cheap anti-light mech and had it supporting my assault in order to keep the enemy lights away from it-and damn near torn one of the mechs trying that in half because they dismissed the little light as barely a threat. On a 20 ton mech that's only worth 685 BV, having a headcapper on something that can still move pretty well is great. (It's worth noting the Assault was a Berserker D4 that had just chopped the leg off a Hellstar and subsequently nailed the CT... That might have something to do with it.)
So... I guess it's got good variants in the sense of it moving BA a little faster towards a battlefield, while carrying enough firepower to hurt the day of someone else with the same job, provided that mech is also a light.
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I suspect some designers were working from art and didn't quite get what "side arc" meant.
Like, take the Challenger and Peregrine, both mount forwarding-pointing but side-mounted SRMs... so rules-wise both are designated as having side-arc SRMs...
That art messed me up for YEARS!
Okay, two mechs from the Dark Age I have issues with:
First up, the Gun.
I get what they're trying to do with it, but why the heck would you want an infantry support mech that is a mere 20 tons and moves that slow? It's unable to mount much armor, an Inner Sphere Large Laser goes internal anywhere on it, and yet at 5/8 it's at risk of being outrun by some heavy mechs. Seems like you'd be stuck hoping for deployment on planets where the enemy is unable to field combat vehicles like Vedetes or even Scorpions, much less actual Battlemechs.
Even infantry can hurt this thing in fairly short order!
Only the Prime config is setup to hunt gropos. And the A version? Putting a hPPC on something that slow, and that squishy is like wearing a "Shoot me!" sign.
Second: the Dark Age Firestarter.
Simply put, it's got far too many flamers and lacks the speed to disengage or the firepower to protect itself if it ever actually finds itself up against another mech.
On the upside, at least it doesn't keep the original's fixed rear flamer... On the other hand, I think I'd rather have the medium laser back... And if EVER there was a machine that calls for Heat Dissipating armor, it should be a Firestarter, but sadly no.... As to it's speed, 6/9/6 and near max armor is serviceable for a 35 tonner.
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On the upside, at least it doesn't keep the original's fixed rear flamer... On the other hand, I think I'd rather have the medium laser back... And if EVER there was a machine that calls for Heat Dissipating armor, it should be a Firestarter, but sadly no.... As to it's speed, 6/9/6 and near max armor is serviceable for a 35 tonner.
It's serviceable if you can defend yourself. The Firestarter is stuck to hoping that it doesn't run into enemy mechs.
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It's a 20 ton mech with a light fire support role and is better armored then a Stinger or Wasp that the house lords would utilize and probably face off against. It isn't all that fast, but 6/9 for the era is fair. Obviously a Sling is better for that sort of thing, but house armies won't have them.
THE-N was built by the hegemony,no?
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Yup, the Thorn was an SLDF mech.
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The Gun brings in Config B the cheapest (both by BV and nominally c-bills) 'Mech headcapper in the game, and very nearly the cheapest of any unit (Saladin, by less than 40 points).
5/8 is faster than many of the battle armor that it can transport as a Omni, particularly Fa Shih.
The Plasma Rifle will on average remove an enemy platoon in the open (34 dead) and does so beyond small arms range.
The Gun is an ideal infantry support mech.
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The Gun is designed as a cheap fire support unit for infantry, especially battle armor and mechanized infantry. Given that Dark Ages battles are designed around combined arms rather then Mech on Mech slugfest (based on the rules from FM 3145), it makes perfect sense for the time period. The Gun hits hard, can be easily added to any garrison or combined arms formation for low cost, and acts as a cheap BA armor carrier on top of it.
As for 3050, many units can be or are already fixed in later variants or new designs. I would have liked to seen a field kit TRO for 3050 and beyond, but that's what the fan design forum is for. Hmm, that's not a bad idea for a thread.
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Thought the kits were hinted at from what folks have said about the original FM Mercs set in 3055, I do not have it so I cannot say.
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I’m unfamiliar with post 3067 stuff, so when you guys were talking about the “Gun”, I thought it was yet another silly mech name.
“Why name a mech after a gun? Why not name it Cannon?”
And then I found out that there’s an accent.
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I’m unfamiliar with post 3067 stuff, so when you guys were talking about the “Gun”, I thought it was yet another silly mech name.
“Why name a mech after a gun? Why not name it Cannon?”
And then I found out that there’s an accent.
I was thinking the exact same thing. "Wow they got really lazy with names."
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Yeah, but trying to put in the command to make it print the correct accent marks on the message board is too hard to bother with.
Besides, the Gun is only 20 tons, so it's not a cannon. More like a pistol.
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and then you saw art at realized it looked like a giant colt .44
Yeah, but trying to put in the command to make it print the correct accent marks on the message board is too hard to bother with.
alt+0249 ù
i took foreign languages after using computers to write was normal but before they added the hotkeys to word
memorizing the codes was easier than going back through and drawing in the accents after printing
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Besides, the Gun is only 20 tons, so it's not a cannon. More like a pistol.
I was thinking less of a pistol and more of a glass cannon. Not to say that there aren't some powerful pistols out there, but that HPPC only has to tag another light mech once. The Plasma Rifle also is an effective weapon against anything. The ER Large Laser version is the only one that I don't particularly like, but I can even forgive that because I'd likely be using it for TAG. The value on it is that cheap BV for the HPPC and has nothing to do with it potentially being still alive after it pops someone at least once. If it cripples at least one thing its BV or greater I'd say it was a good investment.
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I was thinking less of a pistol and more of a glass cannon. Not to say that there aren't some powerful pistols out there, but that HPPC only has to tag another light mech once. The Plasma Rifle also is an effective weapon against anything. The ER Large Laser version is the only one that I don't particularly like, but I can even forgive that because I'd likely be using it for TAG. The value on it is that cheap BV for the HPPC and has nothing to do with it potentially being still alive after it pops someone at least once. If it cripples at least one thing its BV or greater I'd say it was a good investment.
It's worth noting that the TRO entry for the Gun B is described as being rarely used without a supporting Artillery Unit within range.
That said, I could've swore the Gun B had a Clanspec, not an Inner Sphere, ER Large Laser.
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That said, I could've swore the Gun B had a Clanspec, not an Inner Sphere, ER Large Laser.
Nah, it is Cappies, they're the only Great House who are entirely reliant on buying Clan-spec stuff from the Sea Foxes, no Clan-tech for garrison units.
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Nah, it is Cappies, they're the only Great House who are entirely reliant on buying Clan-spec stuff from the Sea Foxes, no Clan-tech for garrison units.
Interesting that an Omni, which is typically goes to line units doesn't rate Clan gear but the Yinghuochong does...
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Interesting that an Omni, which is typically goes to line units doesn't rate Clan gear but the Yinghuochong does...
The Gun itself is actually fluffed as not a line unit, and more of a garrison/IFV of a light.
Which, to me, actually makes a lot more sense for an IS force than a Clan one. Inner Sphere Houses always seem to be more on the defense than the offense, so building good generalist omnimechs as your secondline forces that can swap payloads to something more suitable on the fly and as defense dictates makes a lot of sense to me when you have a *lot* of ground to defend. (Granted, having an all-omnimech force makes even more sense, even with all the fancy non-omni tech in circulation.)
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Interesting that an Omni, which is typically goes to line units doesn't rate Clan gear but the Yinghuochong does...
Because the Gun is a cheap infantry-support machine that has the durability of a paper plate. You don't want to stick expensive Clantech on a mech like that.
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Exactly. You want to put Clantech on something more durable, like a 3025 Wasp.
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Hey, strip every other weapon off except that ML slot which trades it in for a cERML . . . put the extra weight to armor or electronics and it gets to be a serious threat.
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I always thought placing the Hunchback's ammo in a different torso than its AC/20 didn't make much sense; instead of having a dead side, you have to worry about both side torsos because crits to either of them totally neuter a HBK-4G.
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I always thought placing the Hunchback's ammo in a different torso than its AC/20 didn't make much sense; instead of having a dead side, you have to worry about both side torsos because crits to either of them totally neuter a HBK-4G.
Do note that many introductory tech 'Mechs make this "mistake".
No comment on in-universe thinking but there's few possible reasons from IRL perspective to explain this:
Initial BattleDroids rules had all heat sinks place on the 'Mech. As such, there'd be crit padding, it is plausible the Hunchback dates from this time, crippled by the rule change like the Marauder.
Game balance might be a reason, as weird as it may have been. Or perhaps a way to making matches shorter. By making both side torsos carry something important, the 'Mech can be crippled more easily.
Aesthetics is another, perhaps the designers were loath to leave one side torso empty. Both, sure, but only one, no.
Not saying any are good reasons though.
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Do note that many introductory tech 'Mechs make this "mistake".
No comment on in-universe thinking but there's few possible reasons from IRL perspective to explain this:
Initial BattleDroids rules had all heat sinks place on the 'Mech. As such, there'd be crit padding, it is plausible the Hunchback dates from this time, crippled by the rule change like the Marauder.
Game balance might be a reason, as weird as it may have been. Or perhaps a way to making matches shorter. By making both side torsos carry something important, the 'Mech can be crippled more easily.
Aesthetics is another, perhaps the designers were loath to leave one side torso empty. Both, sure, but only one, no.
Not saying any are good reasons though.
IIRC if a location is empty, crit rolls in that location transfer inwards, towards the center torso in this case. So I can see not wanting to risk getting engine and gyro hits from crits in the torso sides, but ammunition wouldn´t be my first choice to get around that.
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No, what he is saying is that some of the 10 SHS currently in the engine were originally outside the engine . . . so for example, it may have had a ton of AC ammo and 3 of the 10 SHS in the same side torso giving you a 25% chance to crit ammo. IF the Hunchback was designed under the original Droids rules.
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Or designed by someone who was thinking of the original Droids rules and hadn't adapted to the new version by the time TRO 3025 was being written.
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There's also the possibility that game rules aren't 100% reflective of how things work in-universe. In the game, you could put a Clan PPC in your foot. Storyline-wise that's probably a bit of an engineering challenge.
In the story, I don't think having lonely ammo in the torso is the death sentence that it can be in the game. The collarbone area and also right above the hip would both be "side torso" in the game rules. But if a laser hit your mech's collarbone, it probably wouldn't damage ammo stored right above the leg, even if that's the only thing in that torso. Theoretically a more detailed game system could exist, where individual mechs had hundreds of hit locations, and in something like that the Hunchback's ammo placement might make perfect sense.
In the "real life" of the game, the mech designers were probably a lot more concerned with accessibility and easy reloading than with fears of a random critical hit on the ammo. When one side is carrying the biggest gun you can produce, crammed in super-tight, why force in more stuff when the other side of the mech has plenty of room?
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There's also the possibility that game rules aren't 100% reflective of how things work in-universe. In the game, you could put a Clan PPC in your foot. Storyline-wise that's probably a bit of an engineering challenge.
Yes, that's why there are a couple of designs where the ammo and weapon are practically as far apart as possible, such as placing the weapon in an arm and ammo in the opposite torso side. I could at least understand it from an overall balance perspective, with the torso ammo serving as a counterweight to the weapon in the opposite arm, except that in one case there was another torso-mounted item on the weapon side which could easily have been swapped with the ammo bin to achieve balance without the convoluted ammo path across the CT. I vaguely recall that some design mounted ammo in a leg for a weapon nowhere near it. Apparently some engineers like challenges a whole lot, otherwise a more sensible configuration (in several respects) would have been used.
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I vaguely recall that some design mounted ammo in a leg for a weapon nowhere near it. Apparently some engineers like challenges a whole lot, otherwise a more sensible configuration (in several respects) would have been used.
OK, that made my OCD twitch… the P1 Perseus Alternate B, as originally printed in TRO3067, has two tons of AMS ammo in the left leg for a head-mounted AMS. (I say "as originally printed" because there may be errata: at least two configs have that "launcher in CT may have Artemis in H" of which I'm not sure if it still is a rule. Yes, a decade on, TW is still "the new ruleset" to me.)
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They did change the Artemis iv rule so that the fcs has to accompany the launcher
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The Targe also does the 'mount ammo in leg trick' expect it ups the sin by ALSO mounting MASC
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I vaguely recall that some design mounted ammo in a leg for a weapon nowhere near it. Apparently some engineers like challenges a whole lot, otherwise a more sensible configuration (in several respects) would have been used.
OK, that made my OCD twitch… the P1 Perseus Alternate B, as originally printed in TRO3067, has two tons of AMS ammo in the left leg for a head-mounted AMS.
That was obviously the FWLM's engineers showing off their new myomer based ammunition feed system which could be stretched to any part of a 'Mech. The AFFS later created a TSM version to facilitate rotary AC burst modes. ;)
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The Targe also does the 'mount ammo in leg trick' expect it ups the sin by ALSO mounting MASC
I'm glad someone finally mentioned that one.
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I'm glad someone finally mentioned that one.
Tell us the truth, are you disappointed people avoid the Targe?
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i keep it in reserve for when people talk about scale problems
SCALE PROBLEMS?? YOU WANT TO SEE SCALE PROBLEMS??
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Tell us the truth, are you disappointed people avoid the Targe?
No, I thought it was silly to waste an XL engine on such a thing and was amazed at how many people were upset that it wasn't what they pictured from the Dark Age game. Like I'd ruined the MadCat or something....
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No, I thought it was silly to waste an XL engine on such a thing and was amazed at how many people were upset that it wasn't what they pictured from the Dark Age game. Like I'd ruined the MadCat or something....
Sarna has an entry for a 'Record Sheets: MechWarrior Dark Age I' which doesn't contain the Targe, but they do have another version of the Targe, simpler called Dark Age, that presumably came along at some point that very closely matches the 3M, which does make the other version being design rather strange.
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Tell us the truth, are you disappointed people avoid the Targe?
my problem is the Targe and Mjolnir occupy the same area in my memory so it's kind of overshadowed by the other, more terrrible choice.
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Like the Storm Raider?
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my problem is the Targe and Mjolnir occupy the same area in my memory so it's kind of overshadowed by the other, more terrrible choice.
Curse you! I just imagined a Mjolnir with ammo in the legs. Not because it needs the ammo, just because it's the only way to make it worse.
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Curse you! I just imagined a Mjolnir with ammo in the legs. Not because it needs the ammo, just because it's the only way to make it worse.
Really? Where did I put those compact heat sinks....
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Ammo on legs isn't usually very bad. I'm assuming standard rules, no floating criticals (i don't like that rule) and assuming a design doesn't have MASC for self-inflicted leg crits. Can't TAC legs, legs are usually pretty sturdily armored, and partial cover blocks damage on legs. And should there be a critical hits, legs always have four slots used up, reducing odds of an ammo explosion.