Author Topic: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after  (Read 2032 times)

Sjhernan3060

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For each clan and especially the invaders did their whole touman and lower castes know that the tukkayid battle was going down? Did they get up to date info as it was occurring? When their clan lost how was the news broken?

AlphaMirage

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #1 on: 25 June 2023, 21:03:16 »
Intriguing question.

I actually want to believe that it was suppressed on the Chatterweb and that many of those in the homeworlds would not be told that their mighty Warrior caste 'lost.'

However, that is likely not true as Clan Wolf would have released it to embarrass the other Invading Clans and merchant crews might be have brought it back with them.

The Wobbly Guy

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #2 on: 25 June 2023, 21:51:27 »
Wasn't there a Clan Spaniel cartoon in-universe where Focht was depicted as an old one-eyed monkey? So that means some knowledge of Tukayyid must have leaked out.

VanVelding

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #3 on: 25 June 2023, 22:06:31 »
Even in a vacuum, I can only imagine how hard it was for warriors to keep the technicians and merchants quiet about the whole thing. The knock-on effect on the breeding programs and resource allocations had to tip off the scientists pretty quickly.

Consider warriors from the OZ to the homeworlds mouthing off anticipating how their Clan is gonna take Terra. And then the OZ warrior straight-up vanishes. And the homeworld Clanner gets really damned moody and doesn't want to talk about it.

I also imagine freebirth warriors are somewhat close to non-warrior castes and there were quite a few of them at Tukayyid. I see warriors trying to keep the true extent of their losses quiet, but general knowledge trickling out pretty quickly.
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Orwell84

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #4 on: 25 June 2023, 23:41:15 »
Intriguing question.

I actually want to believe that it was suppressed on the Chatterweb and that many of those in the homeworlds would not be told that their mighty Warrior caste 'lost.'

However, that is likely not true as Clan Wolf would have released it to embarrass the other Invading Clans and merchant crews might be have brought it back with them.

Agreed, plus leaders from other Clans like the Ghost Bears and Steel Vipers would have reasons for not covering it up either. "We outperformed the rest of you Crusaders!" or "ComStar's perfidy means that maybe the Spheroids are in fact tainted!"

Even in an authoritarian society like the Clans news as big as Tukayyid would have a way of getting out. Too many technicians, medical staff, ship crews and the like would have been involved in some fashion and had at least a general idea of what had happened, if not the exact losses. If they were officially prohibited from saying anything, they'd still quietly inform fellow caste members on the grapevine.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #5 on: 26 June 2023, 01:20:17 »
Intriguing question.

I actually want to believe that it was suppressed on the Chatterweb and that many of those in the homeworlds would not be told that their mighty Warrior caste 'lost.'

However, that is likely not true as Clan Wolf would have released it to embarrass the other Invading Clans and merchant crews might be have brought it back with them.

Right?! It was noted I think in the clans sourcebook that the jags were especially firmly clamped down on knowledge shared to their lower castes but as hyped as they were for that battle I have to think that they would have been loud and proud about how they were going “ crush those weak comguard ”  and the decimation of alpha and beta galaxies would be tough to hide…

Metallgewitter

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #6 on: 26 June 2023, 02:02:24 »
I would think that the lower castes should at least have picked up that something went wrong. For example some Clans assigned the "loosers" of Tukayyid as sibko trainers. I can imagine that they then poured their resentment into their cadets and I would wager the lower castes who are assinged should pick up on that. And it then might spread from there via talks in bars or chatter web discussions. And who knows if Comstar hasn't inserted some agents within the Clans who then spread some information

Alan Grant

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #7 on: 26 June 2023, 06:43:46 »
I actually think that because of the quirks of Clan society, it would have been even more difficult to hide than if they had been Inner Sphere powers.

The structure of the Clans is that the entire Clan is supporting the warrior caste. Now I know that's not literally true, but it is true that a lot of the lower caste have jobs that are directly or indirectly tied to the warriors. With their budgets and priorities established by the warrior caste and the Clan Council. Even a scientist caste researcher in the Homeworlds, specializing in genetically engineering new crops to yield more food, might see their budget allocation changed because the Clan's priorities changed because of the ramp-up to Tukayyid (or Op. Revival in general) or due to the resource change needs of the aftermath (needing to rebuild the touman after such heavy losses).

So if the warriors need to prepare for a major operation, or recover from the aftermath of one. There are a lot of lower castes involved in that, and not just those attached to the touman directly as support personnel. In the aftermath certainly, the lower castes would have noticed a shift in priorities as Operation Revival ended and priorities shifted.

A great example is the Shark merchant caste. In the aftermath of Tukayyid it's well-demonstrated in canon that they were given a lot of latitude with orders to rebuild the touman. They ran with that and spread far and wide, driving hard bargains everywhere. Odds are, the reasons why they were doing that developed into common knowledge.

So no, I don't think it was a secret. However what was said (in official statements anyway) was almost certainly laden with lots of pro-Clan, anti-Inner Sphere propaganda. Talking up how dishonorable their barbarian opponents are, and how this demonstrates what some of the Crusaders have been saying is true, that they are indeed a threat. Behind that was a lot of more honest information that probably spread more person-to-person over a longer period of time.

The Crusaders' mantras had two, arguably contradictory central pillars to them. One of them was that the Inner Sphere was a serious military threat and the Clans needed to attack before the Inner Sphere attacked them. They pointed to the Explorer Corps Jumpship discovering Huntress as justification for that line of reasoning. The other argument is that the barbarians are weak, ruled by unsavory selfish warlords (the Great Houses) interested only in advancing their own selfish needs, and that in the Succession Wars they had decimated their own nations and killed many and reduced beautiful worlds to wastelands, and that the Clans were actually doing the people of the Inner Sphere a favor by conquering the Inner Sphere and bringing the Clan superior society to the barbarians. That it was akin to a humanitarian mission really, saving the Inner Sphere from the real villains.

I'm sure in this there were a lot of comparisons to Operation Klondike.

After Tukayyid, parts of the despotic barbarian argument don't look so sharp anymore. The Inner Sphere doesn't look entirely weak and the poor citizens of the Inner Sphere that Clan propaganda claimed they were saving are actually fighting back against the Clans. It muddies the water of the second Crusader argument. But the first argument, that the Inner Sphere is actually a threat to the Clans. That line of propaganda looks as good as ever. The Inner Sphere is actually a threat, they can defeat us, so we need to be stronger than ever before. The Crusaders can hang their hats on that one post-Tukayyid as they dole out the propaganda to their lower castes.
« Last Edit: 26 June 2023, 07:05:10 by Alan Grant »

Metallgewitter

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #8 on: 26 June 2023, 09:33:52 »
The Crusaders' mantras had two, arguably contradictory central pillars to them. One of them was that the Inner Sphere was a serious military threat and the Clans needed to attack before the Inner Sphere attacked them. They pointed to the Explorer Corps Jumpship discovering Huntress as justification for that line of reasoning. The other argument is that the barbarians are weak, ruled by unsavory selfish warlords (the Great Houses) interested only in advancing their own selfish needs, and that in the Succession Wars they had decimated their own nations and killed many and reduced beautiful worlds to wastelands, and that the Clans were actually doing the people of the Inner Sphere a favor by conquering the Inner Sphere and bringing the Clan superior society to the barbarians. That it was akin to a humanitarian mission really, saving the Inner Sphere from the real villains.

I'm sure in this there were a lot of comparisons to Operation Klondike.

After Tukayyid, parts of the despotic barbarian argument don't look so sharp anymore. The Inner Sphere doesn't look entirely weak and the poor citizens of the Inner Sphere that Clan propaganda claimed they were saving are actually fighting back against the Clans. It muddies the water of the second Crusader argument. But the first argument, that the Inner Sphere is actually a threat to the Clans. That line of propaganda looks as good as ever. The Inner Sphere is actually a threat, they can defeat us, so we need to be stronger than ever before. The Crusaders can hang their hats on that one post-Tukayyid as they dole out the propaganda to their lower castes.

I think even after Tukayyid most Crusaders viewed the IS as weak and corrupt. There is this inner monologue from Vlad Ward when the IS launches Bulldog in the name of the Star League. He personally thinks that the loss on Tukayyid was more due to the fact that the ComGuards were pure as Comstar was holding themselves above the petty states and that the other wins on Twycross and Teniente were due to trickery and luck. And the state of the chamber somehow reflects it as most Khans are actually shocked the IS dares to strike back at them. And let's not forget how shocked they were when the IS actually arrives in the Homeworlds. Heck even when the Falcons launched their Operation during the Civil War they never anticipated that the Lyrans would strike back into their OZ.

And I just rememberd: in Wars of Reaving there ios the journal of one scientist who describes how science stalled before the invasion and how suddenly the warriors demanded new weapons after they had lost. And how rereshing it felt to do real research again. So perhaps in a sense some castes were actually ecstatic that the warriors lost because suddenly they were more important again. And as you said perhaps helped with some well applied propaganda

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #9 on: 26 June 2023, 09:56:10 »
Did the invaders beam back news flashes to the home worlds? Such as “ 3 days to invasion!” Or “ alpha galaxy has landed and is driving towards our target city ( would you like to know more…)

CJC070

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #10 on: 26 June 2023, 16:43:51 »
Did the invaders beam back news flashes to the home worlds? Such as “ 3 days to invasion!” Or “ alpha galaxy has landed and is driving towards our target city ( would you like to know more…)

If they did it was only until the they were losing and suddenly all broadcasts within 21 days experienced “technical difficulties”.  That or the “announcer” was crushed by a retreating Timber Wolf, I mean a charging Catapult.

Alan Grant

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #11 on: 26 June 2023, 19:01:51 »
Keep in mind, as is often the case during the fog of war. The play-by-play stuff often comes later. Once you've had a chance to interview the survivors, gather the sensor readings, the communications logs and so on. There was even a Jaguar Khan who everyone thought was dead, who was then found alive.

Amid the Battle of Tukayyid itself, there was probably a tremendous amount of chaos, lack of information, bad intel leading to rumors and so on. If you tried to engage in real-time reporting of the events, half of what you'd communicate back would be proven wrong, or instantly outdated just moments later. So I don't think there was any kind of real time recording, sharing of the event.

They could probably mark a few key events, like the times a Clan completely withdrawing from the Trial, I think that would have spread somewhat fast, but that's about it. Plus marking the end of the Trial itself and the announcing of the outcome.

So I suspect everyone not participating in the Trial mostly just got the very basic information anywhere close to the event itself, then more details later on, and that could be days, weeks, months later.
« Last Edit: 26 June 2023, 19:06:00 by Alan Grant »

cmerwin

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #12 on: 28 June 2023, 13:15:13 »
So I suspect everyone not participating in the Trial mostly just got the very basic information anywhere close to the event itself, then more details later on, and that could be days, weeks, months later.


I think this is exactly right. News probably didn't get to the Homeworlds until much after the fact. Plus, 1) all of the major leadership was already on planet, and 2) the Clans being the Clans, what information was released (even after the fact) would probably have been either very restricted, or highly tailored for public (Clan) consumption.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #13 on: 05 September 2023, 13:39:39 »
Intriguing question.

I actually want to believe that it was suppressed on the Chatterweb and that many of those in the homeworlds would not be told that their mighty Warrior caste 'lost.'

However, that is likely not true as Clan Wolf would have released it to embarrass the other Invading Clans and merchant crews might be have brought it back with them.

I have to imagine that the wolves would have put together a very slick “ as if you were there” style holodocumentary about how they triumphed over the comguards best while the other clans tasted the agony of defeat

Sjhernan3060

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #14 on: 05 September 2023, 13:42:31 »

I think this is exactly right. News probably didn't get to the Homeworlds until much after the fact. Plus, 1) all of the major leadership was already on planet, and 2) the Clans being the Clans, what information was released (even after the fact) would probably have been either very restricted, or highly tailored for public (Clan) consumption.

Which makes me curious how the sharks handled it? As the pioneers of the chatterweb but also a clan which was TROUNCED I would think any attempt to gloss over that would be pretty quickly debunked online

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #15 on: 05 September 2023, 14:01:19 »

It's safe to say that Warden Clans would have had the news on full blast and that both their warriors and civilians would make it conversational topic of any meeting with folks from the other Clans





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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #16 on: 05 September 2023, 14:20:15 »
It's safe to say that Warden Clans would have had the news on full blast and that both their warriors and civilians would make it conversational topic of any meeting with folks from the other Clans

It's not safe to say that at all. There's absolutely no canonical evidence to suggest that any of this was the case.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #17 on: 05 September 2023, 16:38:29 »
It's not safe to say that at all. There's absolutely no canonical evidence to suggest that any of this was the case.

While not from the initial invasion time frame the WOR and Jihad era chatter web snippets we see definitely show folks from other clans giving each other a hard time about various defeats etc

Fire Scorpion IIC

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #18 on: 06 September 2023, 03:42:19 »

Plus by the time Tukayyid happened the Warden Clans have already realized that Leo Showers bamboozled everyone with the Outbound Light report and took them all for a proverbial ride


Sjhernan3060

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #19 on: 04 May 2024, 11:17:08 »

I think this is exactly right. News probably didn't get to the Homeworlds until much after the fact. Plus, 1) all of the major leadership was already on planet, and 2) the Clans being the Clans, what information was released (even after the fact) would probably have been either very restricted, or highly tailored for public (Clan) consumption.

I read one excellent post tukkayid story in sharpnel but if there are more I would appreciate knowing where I can find them. I would also think that reports from the losers would highlight their kill ratios and downplay any successes their rivals had.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #20 on: 04 May 2024, 22:42:16 »
It's not safe to say that at all. There's absolutely no canonical evidence to suggest that any of this was the case.

There's also no canonical evidence that the Clans possessed any sort of skill when it came to information suppression.  And it wasn't just warriors who went to Tukayyid.  There were plenty of technicians to keep the mechs and Elementals working, scientist caste medics, probably even some laborers fixing meals.  They al saw how the battle went down and would have talked with those who didn't.
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tassa_kay

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #21 on: 04 May 2024, 23:58:51 »
There's also no canonical evidence that the Clans possessed any sort of skill when it came to information suppression.

WoK begs to differ.

Quote
And it wasn't just warriors who went to Tukayyid.  There were plenty of technicians to keep the mechs and Elementals working, scientist caste medics, probably even some laborers fixing meals.  They al saw how the battle went down and would have talked with those who didn't.

This much, at least, is true.
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parable

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #22 on: 05 May 2024, 01:39:26 »
WoK begs to differ.

Just to provide the reference for anyone w/o WoK--p. 61 "Free speech is discouraged, and nonessential communications are tightly controlled.  Most apartments come with communications equipment, but sophisticated computer systems monitor its use and note any "inappropriate" communications.  The precise definition of "inappropriate" is somewhat nebulous."  It then goes on to describe that the Smoke Jaguars might penalize a laborer for using the Chatterweb to arrange for babysitting while they attended some nonmandatory event, but that the Diamond Sharks prefer seeing what benefits unencumbered communication brings (not that they aren't severely limiting speech thought of as subversive.)  The weakness of their spies aside, the Clans are masters at information control within their own.
« Last Edit: 05 May 2024, 04:58:05 by parable »
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #23 on: 05 May 2024, 09:23:00 »
Interesting.  None of the novels ever gave that impression.
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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #24 on: 05 May 2024, 09:54:59 »
Interesting.  None of the novels ever gave that impression.

To be fair, the novel/sourcebook disconnect has always been, and continues to be, endemic to BattleTech. The lack of consistency is downright maddening sometimes. So who the hell knows?
« Last Edit: 05 May 2024, 10:00:00 by tassa_kay »
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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #25 on: 05 May 2024, 16:06:48 »
Interesting.  None of the novels ever gave that impression.

how much attention do the novels give to the lower castes?
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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #26 on: 05 May 2024, 16:23:07 »
how much attention do the novels give to the lower castes?

Mostly, they depict the warriors as ignoring the non-warriors except when giving them orders.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #27 on: 05 May 2024, 18:00:54 »
Mostly, they depict the warriors as ignoring the non-warriors except when giving them orders.

which can also be said about the dracs and capellans for the most part.
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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #28 on: 05 May 2024, 18:45:33 »
Mostly, they depict the warriors as ignoring the non-warriors except when giving them orders.
Yeah, afaik, there aren't any non-trueborn lower caste even secondary characters in any of the novels, with the exception of some members of the Society. Can anyone confirm this?
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Re: Lower caste knowledge of tukkayid before, during and after
« Reply #29 on: 05 May 2024, 18:55:09 »
There have been a few, but most of them were originally Inner Sphere civilians who were caught in the Invasion.

But part of my point was when the warriors ignored the lower castes and treated them as not being worth paying attention to, it meant that they would likely speak freely in front of them.
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