Author Topic: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)  (Read 39046 times)

Alexander Knight

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #240 on: 23 September 2013, 21:51:42 »
I can't convince you.  Bowing out.

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #241 on: 23 September 2013, 21:58:29 »
Sorry, but the TSEMP simply goes against my code of moral. Same goes for the TASER, which I actually did test in several games. Like Icaza says, the control of your mechs switches to the enemy if the weapon strikes succesfully. That is the thing, making them unfun.
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martian

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #242 on: 23 September 2013, 22:55:50 »
Sadly almost any unit in the Cappelan one fields one (the catapult has 2). And in every other book, there is at least one unit which uses them too.

My cursory check has not found a TSEMP Cannon in TRO3145 Mercenaries, in TRO3145 Davions and in TRO3145 Marik ...

Diablo48

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #243 on: 23 September 2013, 23:03:16 »
I recommend everyone who has a negative opinion about TSEMP to run a game or two that has 4 of them in 1 force. And then see if that confirms your opinion, or alters it.

I am honestly not impressed with the performance of the TSEMP and would not use it unless there were some kind of overriding campaign reason that I needed to be able to lock down a single 'Mech and take it down in a specific way like headshots, but I do see the argument against it.  The issue is not so much that the weapon is powerful, but that it could be frustrating to play against if the enemy gets lucky because it has much better odds of disabling a 'Mech than a headcap, and if you are only running one unit then it is even more frustrating because that is not the end of the game so you have to wait and see what happens next turn while you cannot do anything.


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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #244 on: 23 September 2013, 23:03:59 »
My cursory check has not found a TSEMP Cannon in TRO3145 Mercenaries, in TRO3145 Davions and in TRO3145 Marik ...
Pretty sure there's not one in Clans either.  I don't remember one in Kurita or Steiner, but I'll have to look.
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martian

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #245 on: 23 September 2013, 23:16:34 »
Pretty sure there's not one in Clans either.  I don't remember one in Kurita or Steiner, but I'll have to look.

There is one Clan 'Mech in TRO3145 Clans (Gyrfalcon 4).
Steiner has got one alternate configuration of Gauntlet with TSEMP.
Kurita has got Phoenix Hawk Light and one alternate configuration of Tenshi with TSEMP


Arkansas Warrior

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #246 on: 23 September 2013, 23:17:54 »
Ok, that what I get for going on memory.  Really should've remembered that Phoenix Hawk.
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #247 on: 24 September 2013, 00:18:45 »
I am going to save my opinion for when I can play with and against a few.  It seems like a lot of this is based on "could" rather than anything else. And it is either overrated, or horribly overpowered and will take the fun out of the game forever.  In other words, TSEMP is this new Hellstar. 

But I won't be able to adequately determine until I am fuming because my 'Mech can't move and I get BBed to death,  or until I shut someone down and cut them in half with a Berserker.  Because that will be my definitive test of whether it is lame or AWESOME! 

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #248 on: 24 September 2013, 05:12:04 »
Not knowing the rules, does the TSEMP's effects impact the BV of the other weapons on the unit which mounts it?

No it does not and no it shouldn't.
Contrary to how Artemis or Targeting Computers work, the effect of the TSEMP is not a constant one. If you add BV to all weapons of a unit because the TSEMP has a chance to shut down the opposing unit (and as such increase the chances to hit) you would have to to the same for Inferno SRMs, LBX (because of cluster engine crit chance), SRMs, LRMs... pretty much everything that has an increased chance to land multiple critical hits or add heat to the opponent.
You should really look at the rules and at the BV of the weapon system before arguing how it should impact stuff. BV is already extremely high.
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #249 on: 24 September 2013, 06:25:53 »
Well, fortunately so far, no one had the idea of putting the things in VEEs. Tested it in HM VEE, you can put together some really nasty things. Especially if you use the one Shot version of the TSEMP. VTOL or fast Hovertank with it is very nasty I think.(Both can reach speeds of 10/15 with a full TSEMP or even 12/18 with the OS version and still mount adequate armor Protection). BV2 for the normal TSEMP version would be something around 1300, based on how much armor you are willing to use. The OS versions can go with BV under 500.
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cold1

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #250 on: 24 September 2013, 08:08:04 »
I recommend everyone who has a negative opinion about TSEMP to run a game or two that has 4 of them in 1 force. And then see if that confirms your opinion, or alters it.

Listen to Paul.  I am leaning toward this being a balanced weapon with a place in the game.  Yeah someone could power game with it, but c'mon you already told that dude the deal when he wanted to play a stat of Hellstars.  One or two in a company sized unit is not going to drastically change a game anymore than a head capper.  Oh and just FYI if there is one across the table, kill it.  Kill it early kill it often.

 The grognards here know what to do, they remember when the Dire Wolf and Warhawk were breaking the game.  They figured out clever ways to kill those dead early and they'll do the same with TSEMP.

Oh, did I mention that when it comes to matters like this you should listen to Paul???  Seriously, every time a "this breaks the game" argument appears Paul gives similar advice.  CGL probably play tested this thing to death and Paul probably had the inside track on it. 


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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #251 on: 24 September 2013, 08:20:56 »
Balanced, maybe yes. The Taser was balanced too, you know. But that is not the point, at least for me. The main purpose of a game is having fun in my opinion. TSEMP and/or Tasers are Fun Killers in my book, due to the psychological factor. Yes, I may lose a unit due to a Gauss/HPPC/CERPPC headshot equally fast, but the odds for that are lower than being shut down by force through a TSEMP.
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False Son

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #252 on: 24 September 2013, 08:35:08 »
Fun is subjective.  Is there really a difference in any weapon that kills your mech?
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #253 on: 24 September 2013, 08:43:57 »
For me, YES there is. Like Icaza said, it like you lose control of your unit if it gets shut down by force. I say, the dislike of the TSEMP, by many people here, myself included, is a psychological thing.
Kinda the same feeling people have in Magic the Gathering for example considering Counterspells in Comparison to classical Creature Killing Removal.

It is more accepted if my opponent kills my Creature via a kill spell then it is if it's  countered by a Counterspell.  With the Counterspell, it is like I am denied to play my cards like I want. That is, as illogical as is, less accepted, as if I got to play my card, but then it is killed on the field through a classical Removal.

Hope this example shows what the problem is.

Oh, and then comes my general dislike of WoB and the TASER Conceptr as a whole, and the TSEMP is basically a TASER MK II.
« Last Edit: 24 September 2013, 08:46:12 by Coldstone »
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #254 on: 24 September 2013, 08:51:21 »
No it does not and no it shouldn't.
Contrary to how Artemis or Targeting Computers work, the effect of the TSEMP is not a constant one. If you add BV to all weapons of a unit because the TSEMP has a chance to shut down the opposing unit (and as such increase the chances to hit) you would have to to the same for Inferno SRMs, LBX (because of cluster engine crit chance), SRMs, LRMs... pretty much everything that has an increased chance to land multiple critical hits or add heat to the opponent.
You should really look at the rules and at the BV of the weapon system before arguing how it should impact stuff. BV is already extremely high.

I think that was based on the targeting penalty it inflicts on other weapons.  After all, a Medium Laser mounted on a TSEMP unit is going to be less effective than a ML mounted on a comparable non-TSEMP unit due to the lack of interference so it would make sense to reduce its value as a sort of opposite TC effect.


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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #255 on: 24 September 2013, 09:04:24 »
Balanced, maybe yes. The Taser was balanced too, you know. But that is not the point, at least for me. The main purpose of a game is having fun in my opinion. TSEMP and/or Tasers are Fun Killers in my book, due to the psychological factor.
Then dont use the silly thing. It's an advanced rule. No one can use it unless everyone agrees.  It's statted out so that the people who DO want to use them (And remember this is a canon weapon that's shown up before hand) can do so. It's like arguing whether we should have rules for Nukes in the game.

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #256 on: 24 September 2013, 09:33:41 »
Well, interesting you mentioned it, because I'm not exactly a fan of Nuke Rules ;)  But they are the lesser evil. I'm glad that we did not get rules for Chemical or even bio weapons too. The pic on the Jihad book, where the Knights of the IS are hit by poison gas was imo extremely tasteless. But that is my opinion of course.
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #257 on: 24 September 2013, 10:05:55 »
Well, interesting you mentioned it, because I'm not exactly a fan of Nuke Rules ;)  But they are the lesser evil. I'm glad that we did not get rules for Chemical or even bio weapons too. The pic on the Jihad book, where the Knights of the IS are hit by poison gas was imo extremely tasteless. But that is my opinion of course.

Well, there is a reason the use of chemical weapons is generally considered to be rather rude. ;)


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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #258 on: 24 September 2013, 10:29:08 »
Well, interesting you mentioned it, because I'm not exactly a fan of Nuke Rules ;)  But they are the lesser evil. I'm glad that we did not get rules for Chemical or even bio weapons too. The pic on the Jihad book, where the Knights of the IS are hit by poison gas was imo extremely tasteless. But that is my opinion of course.

Actually...I think we DO have rules forchemical weapons somewhere. I want to say in the Star League Field Manual or Era Report?

I understand your point about someone shutting down your 'mech is not fun for you. I take it you also don't like Infernos
or Plasma Cannons, since those can also make your mech shut down, especially if you are in anything other then some
Marik designs. Worse is: they can keep you shut down, or, at least, delay the cooling down to below 14 heat.
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #259 on: 24 September 2013, 10:47:56 »
Yeah, heat induction weapons are almost worse in my mind because you have no real defense against them.  A plasma cannon could potentially shoot any mech and range, forcing you to reduce your own heat output to avoid penalties.  That's fairly frustrating if you are in a tight cluster.  And, it doesn't even need to hit in order to have the psychological effect.
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #260 on: 24 September 2013, 11:02:07 »
I actually think it adds a layer of fun.  This is a tactical war game.  Utilization of units versus opposing units is the base of it.  Adding another layer with EMP weapons is just another thing you have to think about and plan for. 

I'd put TSEMP on the field just as bait to keep my opponent's attention.  Then when they worry about the TSEMP carrier rock them with big long range guns and LRMs.  Did the two TSEMP Catapult and Hellstar just become best friends???  Munch attack!!!!  :D

Seriously, it just adds another layer.  If you prefer not to use then don't use it.  It does not break the game.  Losing control of a mech for one turn is not a huge ordeal.  If you let the thing get into range and give it a good chance to hit you then you deserve to get shut down.  Learn from it, hope your armor holds, then go kill it. 


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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #261 on: 24 September 2013, 11:03:43 »
Yeah, heat induction weapons are almost worse in my mind because you have no real defense against them.  A plasma cannon could potentially shoot any mech and range, forcing you to reduce your own heat output to avoid penalties.  That's fairly frustrating if you are in a tight cluster.  And, it doesn't even need to hit in order to have the psychological effect.

Well, there is that new Capellan armor.
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #262 on: 24 September 2013, 13:39:49 »
Actually...I think we DO have rules forchemical weapons somewhere. I want to say in the Star League Field Manual or Era Report?

I understand your point about someone shutting down your 'mech is not fun for you. I take it you also don't like Infernos
or Plasma Cannons, since those can also make your mech shut down, especially if you are in anything other then some
Marik designs. Worse is: they can keep you shut down, or, at least, delay the cooling down to below 14 heat.

Interestingly enough, no that is not the case. The IS Plasma Rifle is actually one of my Fave weapons, alongside the IS ERPPC.

For the Clans it is the ER Large Laser, but I tried an alternate Direwolf prime which uses twin Plasmarifles instead of the autocannons and some more sinks.
You can counter Heatweapons either by careful weapons choice or the new anti heat armor and you won't have to fear higher heat generated than 15. Considering my playstyle of riding the red line, I simply don't fear heat weapons so much. I admit that I have to see the TSEMP in actual combat, but I DID see the Mech Taser in good quantitiies in action and did not like that playstyle. And the TSEMP is better than the TASER in every way. When I saw the first mechs with it and the complete name of the weapon Tight Stream ELECTRO MAGNETIC PULSE Cannon I almost wanted to throw up my breakfast. Wasn't the Tripod Ares in one of its Dark Age incarnations actually the first mech using one?
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #263 on: 24 September 2013, 13:47:28 »
I admit that I have to see the TSEMP in actual combat, but I DID see the Mech Taser in good quantitiies in action and did not like that playstyle. And the TSEMP is better than the TASER in every way.

Interstingly, there are a couple of advantages to the taser over the TESMP Cannon.  The first is that a Taser can be fired every turn, whereas a TSEMP may only be fired every other turn. The second is that the taser always delivers an interference effect if it fails to shut-down the target, something TSEMP doesn't do.  Finally, firing the Taser doesn't penalize your other weapons fire.  In all honesty, if you plan on engaging your targets at point blank range, you're probably better off with the Taser than the TSEMP. The difference in the chance to cause shutdown will be more than made up for by gaining twice as many to hit rolls and being guaranteed an interference effect, while taking no penalty to your own shooting.

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #264 on: 24 September 2013, 16:24:26 »
TSEMP predates the tripods by a couple of years.

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #265 on: 24 September 2013, 18:30:34 »
Interstingly, there are a couple of advantages to the taser over the TESMP Cannon.  The first is that a Taser can be fired every turn, whereas a TSEMP may only be fired every other turn. The second is that the taser always delivers an interference effect if it fails to shut-down the target, something TSEMP doesn't do.  Finally, firing the Taser doesn't penalize your other weapons fire.  In all honesty, if you plan on engaging your targets at point blank range, you're probably better off with the Taser than the TSEMP. The difference in the chance to cause shutdown will be more than made up for by gaining twice as many to hit rolls and being guaranteed an interference effect, while taking no penalty to your own shooting.

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« Last Edit: 25 September 2013, 14:51:20 by Maskerade »
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False Son

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #266 on: 25 September 2013, 10:16:20 »
That's for battle armor.
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #267 on: 25 September 2013, 22:34:47 »
Well, my take on it TSEMP is that it's probably balanced. CLG has done stellar work (still hoping for Interstellar, though - see what I did there? ;) ) and I can't see them releasing something like this that wasn't. My problem is the not fun factor.

See, there's always the argument of the golden bb doing a TAC or getting headcapped in such and such a game. The difference here is that those players didn't come into the game with the plan of using a TAC to kak your gyro or head capping you with the Gauss. These happened by luck and although the player responsible is probably celebrating it, it wasn't planned.

TSEMP is planned. They brought it to the field to disable your 'Mech so that they can whale on it while it's shut down. To destroy your 'Mech with you looking on, unable to do anything. A Stinger can, at least, run like a bugger from a MadCat if it finds itself tangled up with one. This is a grossly unfair fight where the Stinger can at least act, even if it's unlikely to get away. You can still try and if you can evade the MadCat for several turns in a row before getting destroyed, that's still quite satisfying.

If you're TSEMPed, oh well.

Needless to say, it's not going to be in my games. I will not play in games with them. I do not want them to become tournament legal, eventually, like other equipment has become, although their complexity makes that somewhat unlikely.

The sheer amount of work necessary to figure out all the additional penalties required just to make these only "very high BV" tells me something.

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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #268 on: 25 September 2013, 23:16:18 »
Well, my take on it TSEMP is that it's probably balanced. CLG has done stellar work (still hoping for Interstellar, though - see what I did there? ;) ) and I can't see them releasing something like this that wasn't. My problem is the not fun factor.

See, there's always the argument of the golden bb doing a TAC or getting headcapped in such and such a game. The difference here is that those players didn't come into the game with the plan of using a TAC to kak your gyro or head capping you with the Gauss. These happened by luck and although the player responsible is probably celebrating it, it wasn't planned.

I feel the need to point out that headcappers are brought around specifically to force that risk, or at the very least threaten very large chunks of damage with the express intent of disabling an opponent's 'Mech in the smallest number of hits, optimally one.  Even more relevant than that, any design ever that mounts multiple missiles launchers (not necessary MMLs) or large amounts of small weapons or even large caliber LBX ACs is specifically geared to exploit as many critical hits as possible.  I, for one, have absolutely designed 'Mechs entirely around inflicting huge amounts of hits to force larger numbers of TACs in order to disable enemies.  I think my favorite to date was an otherwise introtech Marauder that replaced the main guns with two LB-5X and four SRM-4.  That's not even a hugely optimized piece of equipment, and it would routinely TAC out other 'Mechs without even trying.
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Re: TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)
« Reply #269 on: 26 September 2013, 00:25:25 »
I feel the need to point out that headcappers are brought around specifically to force that risk, or at the very least threaten very large chunks of damage with the express intent of disabling an opponent's 'Mech in the smallest number of hits, optimally one.  Even more relevant than that, any design ever that mounts multiple missiles launchers (not necessary MMLs) or large amounts of small weapons or even large caliber LBX ACs is specifically geared to exploit as many critical hits as possible.  I, for one, have absolutely designed 'Mechs entirely around inflicting huge amounts of hits to force larger numbers of TACs in order to disable enemies.  I think my favorite to date was an otherwise introtech Marauder that replaced the main guns with two LB-5X and four SRM-4.  That's not even a hugely optimized piece of equipment, and it would routinely TAC out other 'Mechs without even trying.

Another point is that the only counter to large size LBs, Ferro-Llamelor, is NOT tournement Legal. The only counter to
Armor Piercing Autocannon Ammo(which is tournement legal) is Hardened Armor and Ferro-Llamelor, neither of which is
tourney legal(though Hardened armor does become legal in the 3090's era...if you are playing a tournement set before
then, it is not). Amor Piercing AC Ammo *IS* specifically intended, if you are using it, to cause TACs to the Gyro/Engine.
Or maybe to the ammo bins or the gauss rifles, etc....Basicly, if you are using it, you are wanting to make your opponent
loose in some rather cheap way..

Acolyte, I have a question for you: You are playing some all light 'mech game. Someone brings a Hollander or Wight.
Do you yell at them for not being fun? They brought a unit that specifically goes against the weakness of everyone
else's units: a BIG gun that will punch through that paper-thin light 'mech armor. You do a vehicle game, and someone
brings units with lots of SRM/MML launchers loaded with Infernos and LB-Xs...do you yell at them for bringing that, since
it is likely going to slaughter your stuff rather effectively.  And, of course, have you played against someone using TSEMP?
You do not know how powerful it is, how effective it is, until you have. Right now, all you have is the theory from the
rules from FM:3145. How do you know it is not fun until you have actually seen it in action? How do you know the
intellectual of fighting that unit, of rising to the challenge of facing that sort of opposition, is not fun?

Put another way: Here is the Scenario: You have nothing but a lance of Regular RFL-3N. You are hit by a Warhawk, a
Hellbringer,  and a Summoner, all Clan Regular. You are outgunned, outclassed, and outskilled. Would you consider
that a "not fun"? Would you get angry at me if my response is that I, personally, would have a blast in that scenario,
and would find it a heck of a lot more fun then any BV balanced scenario, because it represents what I love most in
games like BattleTech: a challenge.
"Victory or Debt!"- The Battlecry of Mercenaries everywhere

"Greetings, Mechwarrior! You have been recruited by the Star League to defend the frontier against---Oops, wrong universe" - Unknown SLDF Recruiter

Reality and Battletech go hand in hand like a drug induced hallucination and engineering a fusion reactor ;-)

 

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