TSEMP overpowered? (contains FM3145 spoilers)

[Diablo48]

Acolyte, I have a question for you: You are playing some all light 'mech game. Someone brings a Hollander or Wight.
Do you yell at them for not being fun? They brought a unit that specifically goes against the weakness of everyone
else's units: a BIG gun that will punch through that paper-thin light 'mech armor. You do a vehicle game, and someone
brings units with lots of SRM/MML launchers loaded with Infernos and LB-Xs...do you yell at them for bringing that, since
it is likely going to slaughter your stuff rather effectively.  And, of course, have you played against someone using TSEMP?
You do not know how powerful it is, how effective it is, until you have. Right now, all you have is the theory from the
rules from FM:3145. How do you know it is not fun until you have actually seen it in action? How do you know the
intellectual of fighting that unit, of rising to the challenge of facing that sort of opposition, is not fun?

While I cannot speak for him, I can say that it sounds to me like you are intentionally handicapping yourself by limiting yourself to a narrow group of units which creates an artificially imbalanced environment.  You can very easily fix either of those scenarios by not limiting yourself to only a small subset of TW units so I feel like that is your fault for being predictable, not the opponent's fault for exploiting your shortcomings.

[Acolyte]

I have mobility in both the situations that you describe. I can act. I can use tactics. In no situation that you've described do I sit around and watch you kill the biggest 'Mech on the field by shutting it down then blasting it while it's helpless. I am mobile until destroyed.

You must have missed the first sentence so here it is again:

Well, my take on it TSEMP is that it's probably balanced. CLG has done stellar work (still hoping for Interstellar, though - see what I did there? ;) ) and I can't see them releasing something like this that wasn't. My problem is the not fun factor.

It's not a problem of balance, it's a problem of freezing out a player for a full turn. The "ah, well, go get the pizza" type of thing. None of the scenarios that you've suggested do that. If the fight isn't BV balanced then victory is determined by how long you withstood the assault and how well you did despite the BV difference. Not "go ahead and play with the X Box while the rest of us play BattleTech"

   - Shane

[StCptMara]

While I cannot speak for him, I can say that it sounds to me like you are intentionally handicapping yourself by limiting yourself to a narrow group of units which creates an artificially imbalanced environment.  You can very easily fix either of those scenarios by not limiting yourself to only a small subset of TW units so I feel like that is your fault for being predictable, not the opponent's fault for exploiting your shortcomings.

Actually, my group uses all canon units. We do what is fielded by the scenario. Some games are heavily limited(like
our "Turkey Day" events, where everyone has bad units in a grinder-like environment, or this year's Tanksgiving event,
which is going to be a vehicle grinder). Others are wide open, allowing any canon unit, with randomly determined pilots.
Then we have campaigns, where the units are determined by the players and their victories/losses. Most of the time,
though, we stick to tournement legal designs.

You must have missed the first sentence so here it is again:It's not a problem of balance, it's a problem of freezing out a player for a full turn. The "ah, well, go get the pizza" type of thing. None of the scenarios that you've suggested do that. If the fight isn't BV balanced then victory is determined by how long you withstood the assault and how well you did despite the BV difference. Not "go ahead and play with the X Box while the rest of us play BattleTech"

   - Shane

Let me ask you again: Have you played against TSEMP? Because, I really do not see how one or two units with it
are going to shut down your whole lance/star. Also, why do you lose the mobility advantage against TSEMP? It
is still a weapon, like a Gauss, or Heavy PPC against a light, that the only defense is to not get hit. TSEMP, to me,
is not a weapon that is going to win the game...it is the opponent being afraid of it that will win the game. You
make it sound like, if by some chance you were to come to my group and play against me, and I was using a unit
with TSEMP, and you did play, you would spend the whole game hiding from it. That would give me the advantage
to manipulate you through my unit movement. Your solution to TSEMP is not to maneuvre, and then take that unit
down with extreme prejudice before it can shoot you(and you can use fire arc denial to make sure that it can't use
that big,bad TSEMP on you).

Then again, my group doesn't do one 'mech per person like can be implied by your view that one 'mech getting
TSEMPed takes the player out of the game. We are also a rather aggressive group. I have noticed from play
at GenCon that most players don't seem to be willing to take risks, or to go for the throat in play. I even had
God and Davion call me "crazy" when he saw how aggressively I played in the Open in 2011.(I didn't win..but
my opponent's 'mechs knew they had been in a fight...)

[Diablo48]

Actually, my group uses all canon units. We do what is fielded by the scenario. Some games are heavily limited(like
our "Turkey Day" events, where everyone has bad units in a grinder-like environment, or this year's Tanksgiving event,
which is going to be a vehicle grinder). Others are wide open, allowing any canon unit, with randomly determined pilots.
Then we have campaigns, where the units are determined by the players and their victories/losses. Most of the time,
though, we stick to tournement legal designs.

I was not talking about customs, just using more than one type of unit.  For example, if I know a player is going to use an all-VTOL force then I will bring a few tanks and 'Mechs of various types with flack weapons else and probably win easily because I am using the counter to his force and there is no single weapon that invalidates my force.  That does not mean either VTOLs or flack weapons are imbalanced, it just means I picked a better force for the match and opposition.

Then again, my group doesn't do one 'mech per person like can be implied by your view that one 'mech getting
TSEMPed takes the player out of the game. We are also a rather aggressive group. I have noticed from play
at GenCon that most players don't seem to be willing to take risks, or to go for the throat in play. I even had
God and Davion call me "crazy" when he saw how aggressively I played in the Open in 2011.(I didn't win..but
my opponent's 'mechs knew they had been in a fight...)

I think that was the assumption, and I do see where he is coming from.  In any format where you only get one 'Mech the TSEMP could be a very frustrating weapon because if it shuts you down then you are just spectating for the next turn.  The match may still be balanced and you can still pull out a win (rather easily in my opinion, I am not at all impressed by the TSEMP), it will just be frustrating if the TSEMP shuts you down.

[StCptMara]

I think that was the assumption, and I do see where he is coming from.  In any format where you only get one 'Mech the TSEMP could be a very frustrating weapon because if it shuts you down then you are just spectating for the next turn.  The match may still be balanced and you can still pull out a win (rather easily in my opinion, I am not at all impressed by the TSEMP), it will just be frustrating if the TSEMP shuts you down.

*has a thought* You know what the counter to TSEMP is? TSEMP! Seriously: how does it take away
someones fun if BOTH SIDES are all shut down for a turn? Remember that all fire is simultaneous in
BattleTech, so, even if you shut down my TSEMP catapult with your TSEMP Phoenix Hawk L, the Cat
still gets to shoot its TSEMP.

But, honestly, I think TSEMP would not be so bad for Acolyte's group if people ran paired units, and
random assigned units. Though, it must be nice to have such a large group...24 people plus GMs
would be awesome!(What? Company on Company is a fun way to kill a day! I am looking forward
to trying Alpha Strike to see if we can do Cluster on Battalion at a reasonable speed.)

[Diablo48]

*has a thought* You know what the counter to TSEMP is? TSEMP! Seriously: how does it take away
someones fun if BOTH SIDES are all shut down for a turn? Remember that all fire is simultaneous in
BattleTech, so, even if you shut down my TSEMP catapult with your TSEMP Phoenix Hawk L, the Cat
still gets to shoot its TSEMP.

Honestly, I would just take the same solution I take to things like C3 spotters.  Those fancy gadgets do you no good if I reduce them to smoking wreckage with actual weapons.  Honestly, it is an expensive, 0-damage weapon.  That makes it very easy to get fire superiority and shred the TSEMP force with raw damage, and if they manage to shut down a 'Mech for a turn it will still not swing the balance much given the TSEMP penalties so I really do not care.

[Coldstone]

Like I said, it just feels wrong for me to have that ability. The argument I should use it too, is not really a point for me. The weapon still goes against my own set of morals. It is the "Counterspell" Factor in magic, which is a reason why blue is hated as a color by many people in magic. I tested the TASER for a long time, and it was not to my liking what it did to the game. Now we have the TSEMP, which is, imo, better than the TASER. I don't have to use it actually in game, since I know this mechanic is not to my liking.

And the Hollander Example in the Light Mech fight is not really valid, since the Hollander has many disadvantages too, first and foremost of course it is quite slow in Comparison to other Light Mechs and the Gauss in in a Torso Location. Making it easy for a Backstabber unit like say a Venom to brake through its rear armor and make the Gauss go boom, Which could be also a valid tactic against TSEMP units, that I know. But it is still an unfun weapon in my book. Balanced maybe sure, but still unfun for me.

[iampoch]

Like I said, it just feels wrong for me to have that ability. The argument I should use it too, is not really a point for me. The weapon still goes against my own set of morals. It is the "Counterspell" Factor in magic, which is a reason why blue is hated as a color by many people in magic. I tested the TASER for a long time, and it was not to my liking what it did to the game. Now we have the TSEMP, which is, imo, better than the TASER. I don't have to use it actually in game, since I know this mechanic is not to my liking.

And the Hollander Example in the Light Mech fight is not really valid, since the Hollander has many disadvantages too, first and foremost of course it is quite slow in Comparison to other Light Mechs and the Gauss in in a Torso Location. Making it easy for a Backstabber unit like say a Venom to brake through its rear armor and make the Gauss go boom, Which could be also a valid tactic against TSEMP units, that I know. But it is still an unfun weapon in my book. Balanced maybe sure, but still unfun for me.

Off topic:

I'm a white-blue-black player, so I love counter spells and all its incarnation (especially Force of Will).

I wouldn't mind going against someone with a TSEMP, although methinks it'll kill in one-to-one dueling.

[Coldstone]

I play blue in some of my decks too. ;) Even Monoblue (although not in a draw/go style), so I know how to play with and against Counters. I think I also know some ways to deal with TSEMP, but I can't change my code of honor/moral, that says such a weapon is simply not right. Maybe I would not have so much problems with this device if there would be more ways to counter it (For example you could make it influenced by the Blue Shield system). Plus the fact that every other realm got only 1 or two designs which incorporated one, but this thing seems to be the new Capellan standard weapon if I look upon the shere number of TSEMP designs in the Liao book. I will not use it, but I won't go so far as to refuse to play if my opponent wanted to use one. If that happens, I have to deal with it, but for myself it goes against my own play standards, so I will not use it.

[William J. Pennington]

I'm not too worried about TSEMP; I think it has a very fair BV for what it does.  Any headcapper could be seen as just as 'unfair'. You can't do anything about it, other than not get hit.  There are multiple headcapping weapons, and many of them hit from far longer ranges than TSEMP,  Every time a headcapping weapon hits, there's a chance your unit is 'out of your control' (dead) --not the same chance as with TSEMP, but the duration sure is longer, and there is the added bonus of failure to kill still means damage is taken.  There is no inherent side effect to firing an headcapping weapon, and its quite possible to carry multiples of such weapons without breaking the BV bank or making your unit anemic and weak on its own.  Its all about tradeoffs.

[cavingjan]

I would look at the spread of TSEMP as nothing more than who happened to design units for which factions.

[Banzai]

Finally played a TSEMP heavy game.  Big fun, high BV, new toy game of Davion vs Liao.  Four players to a side and the Liao side had two Raven IIs an two of the murder machine Catapult IIs among their ten.  That is 6 TSEMP cannons.   Big boards, and multiple objectives to hold, so it was relatively spread out. 

The Catapults took a page from the TRO and decided to go head hunting.  Bypassing my AS7-D2 Atlas III due to the weight deduction for the TSEMP, they teamed up and shut down a Black Knight.    And here is where it got interesting.  I moved over to help defend the 'mech,  but there was almost a visceral response by the rest of the players as well.  We did not set this up before hand, but every player on the Davion side (four of us) turned and shot at the Catapults.  One player had a Lu Wei Bing who had failed a piloting roll and went face first and the Davion player moved away from him to get a better shot on the Cats rather than trying to take the Assault 'Mech out.  We took damage, and it maybe didn't make tactical sense, but it was almost a fear reaction.  And we found one way to counter a TSEMP 'Mech is to blow it the hell up.  Everyone attacked them in one way or another as much as they could, and that was it for the Scorched Coffins.   

And the funny thing?  The two Raven IIs decided not to use their TSEMPs right away.  One took a couple shots later, without as much success, but they never set them self up as the big nail and never got the hammer. 

Not a scientific test, and I want to play against them some more, but on our first pass, it made for an odd game, but a memorable one. 

[Jim1701]

@Banzai - I kind of expected this kind of response.  I see the exact same thing when at our games when something like a Berserker decides to charge.  Pretty much everyone on the defender side opens up on it regardless of if they are the target or not. 

[Coldstone]

Well, I often play with double Blind rules, so maybe that shows up in my evaluation of the thing.

[Diablo48]

Banzai, that was more or less what I was expecting to happen.  When you have to take an expensive, dangerous, and relatively squishy unit into short range it is easy to reduce it to a pile of scrap in short order, so the counter to the TSEMP is to blow it apart quickly.

[Acolyte]

@StCptMara:

My mobility is gone when I'm shut down by the TSEMP. I don't know about you, but I like to know where my 'Mechs are going several turns from now, at least in a general sense. It's much like predicting the weather, though, the farther in advance the less detail your plans can be. TSEMP will put a hitch in that, but that's not that big a deal - a hidden SRM carrier will also do that. >:D (poor locust...... 10 SRM6's....) What I was more talking about was the being helpless and immobile thing.

As to my group - it's an AToW campaign, complete with player characters that have been around a long time. To give you an idea, we converted to AToW from a highly modified MW 1st ed. That's how long. Random assignments are not applicable, multiple 'Mechs are, and that's done now, but about 1 character per lance or so is important to the player. They have no problem being headcapped - at least they say the don't - but it'd be a different thing to be made randomly helpless and destroyed while shut down. I might - just might - use it as a scary NPC weapon once in maybe a blue moon. Like any other tech of that nature - EPM mines, 'Mech Tasers, ect. For the drama of the story, no more.

The 1 'Mech per player thing is from my experience in game stores with drop in players. Just imagine a new player - who you've met before and like - that you invite in for an advanced tech game to try it out getting TSEMPed. I guess they could peruse the comic section while being available to mark damage. This is why right now it's experimental - to avoid such things.

I more view it as like the old MW 1st ed Infernos. 10 heat per turn for 3 turns on an introtech 'Mech sucks and every additional hit extends that by another 3 turns. I like the TW Infernos a lot more.

Keep in mind, this is just me, you can use them if you like - as I said your table, your rules. If I every show you at your table that still applies. Just make sure you put into your strategy the that TSEMP unit is likely the first target. O0

   - Shane

[StCptMara]

Keep in mind, this is just me, you can use them if you like - as I said your table, your rules. If I every show you at your table that still applies. Just make sure you put into your strategy the that TSEMP unit is likely the first target. O0

   - Shane

Just like any protomechs and WiGEs I field tend to be the first targets by my other players...
Oh, and any TSM Melee 'mechs I field, and any Assault 'mechs with improve Jump jets I field, and...

When something is dangerous, my group has a rule: Kill it with extreme prejudice..

Then again, I have been known to use units like that to get people going after it, while ignoring the
other units I am using...And, of course, there is the simple fact that if my opponent has a Taser, I
plan my moves so that...if it succeeds, they fall right into my trap! I would likely do the same against
TSEMP...(The look on one guys face when his Raptor II Tasered me..and I responded with "I have you
right where I want you..." and he paused, looked at the board, and realized that his moving to taser my
commander and position his forces for a follow-up execution had, indeed, lost him the fight as his stuff
was all in a pretty row and close together when my ASF arrived for their strafing run...With Heavy Large
lasers....)

[Coldstone]

Ahem. It was only 6 Heat for 3 Turns, not 10. 10 Heat was if you were struck by an Arrow IV Inferno Missile.

StCptMara interesting tactic. I use similar tactics  and I have often the added advantage of Double Blind ( I seem to be the only one in my group who actually uses AProbes for scouting in that environment. The other players consider that waste tonnage). Problem is, it only works if your oponent takes the bait. I would never use it to only hunt for one mech. That will not work.

[mbear]

I wouldn't mind going against someone with a TSEMP, although methinks it'll kill in one-to-one dueling.

That's actually a good thought. Would Clan players in a Trial of Bloodright use TSEMPs? It would seem to fit with their waste-not-want-not mentality, but at the same time, shutting down an opponent to get in free shots might be seen as dishonorable.

[Diablo48]

That's actually a good thought. Would Clan players in a Trial of Bloodright use TSEMPs? It would seem to fit with their waste-not-want-not mentality, but at the same time, shutting down an opponent to get in free shots might be seen as dishonorable.

I would expect poor results in a duel.  You need several simultaneous hits to have a decent chance of shutting down the opponent so odds are the only thing it will do is cost you accuracy every other turn and make your opponent's job that much easier.

[Coldstone]

You call 9+ non decent Chance? if you are accurate it is even 7+, since the opponent will then suffer similar targeting issues than your self. A 25% chance for shut down and a 50% chance for inderefences are good enough in my book. BEsides clans have the weapon to negate the +2 Mod. The Clan Pulse Weaons.

[cavingjan]

I would expect luck to be the deciding element in duels. The clanner could win a few battles but in the long run they would be a liability as other damage producing weapons could be used more consistently.

[Coldstone]

Hmm. Since one rule for the TSEMP is the carrier must have a fusion  engine does that mean I can build this thing inside a protomech too? Theoretically speaking of course.
With Vehicles I could build some quite mean units, Heli or Hoverwise, carrying a TSEMP.
Both came out at 1500BV for a full TSEMP.
With an One Shot variant I could go under 450BV.
Not that I want to use the things, but I like to know what is possible aside from Mechs with a given weapon system.

[Diablo48]

You call 9+ non decent Chance? if you are accurate it is even 7+, since the opponent will then suffer similar targeting issues than your self. A 25% chance for shut down and a 50% chance for inderefences are good enough in my book. BEsides clans have the weapon to negate the +2 Mod. The Clan Pulse Weaons.

That is after the to hit roll which further reduces the odds of getting a result on the enemy, and you nail yourself with that penalty no matter what.  In the mean time, your opponent will be up an ERPPC which will generally improve damage output by about 25%~50% (and a headcapper) so unless you keep him shut down that much of the time, he will put out more damage than you even without factoring in the targeting penalties you will be eating.  Thus the net result is that it will generally screw you over in a duel.

[Yeti]

Hmm. Since one rule for the TSEMP is the carrier must have a fusion  engine does that mean I can build this thing inside a protomech too? Theoretically speaking of course.

Yes you can.
IMO one of the best uses for it, because the attacker interference does not bother you, if the only weapon you mount is a TSEMP which you can't shoot anyway, while the rest of your point can still attack uninhibited.

[Scotty]

No, I'm pretty sure you can't.  Protomechs have a list of things they can use, not a list of things they can't use.  TSEMP isn't on the "can use" list, last I knew.

[Yeti]

FM3145 p245

Available to: BM, IM, PM, CV, SV, AF, CF, SC, MS

Unless that is a misprint, I would say they can

[Scotty]

Huh, so it is.  I apparently need to get my eyes checked.

Though, I can't imaging a point of protos having anything less than appalling BV for mounting TSEMP.

[CloaknDagger]

No, I'm pretty sure you can't.  Protomechs have a list of things they can use, not a list of things they can't use.  TSEMP isn't on the "can use" list, last I knew.

By that logic, it's the same with mechs because they 'can't' use LRMs 1-4, SRMs 1,3,5, or infantry scale weapons.

[Scotty]

'Mechs are not Protomechs.  I thought that was obvious.