BattleTech - The Board Game of Armored Combat
BattleTech Game Systems => General BattleTech Discussion => Topic started by: Drewbacca on 13 May 2018, 13:59:13
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Given the choice, what would you use Hardened Armor? What is you thought about it in general and in comparison with other types or armor?
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I've fallen in so much love with the Commando Freyr. Yeah I miss that extra run point, but it can jump to compensate.
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Hardened Armor is good for making things more durable than their frames can typically make them. It directly increases durability as a function of tonnage spent. As such, if you can get enough tonnage out of moving to an XL engine to armor the side torsos more than you could put on the center torso and still come out ahead, it's a pretty good idea.
Less of a good idea if you have a poor piloting skill, mind. And definitely not a good idea to double-dip on 'technically more durable but make PSRs more difficult' equipment like Torso-Mounted Cockpits.
Overall I'd say it's of good use on higher end Lights through Mediums, because they tend to suffer most from the proliferation of high-powered offensive equipment through the Republic and Dark Ages. Having a Light 'Mech that can just sort of shrug off a Gauss round makes your scouts significantly more durable, and losing 1 MP off of 11 or 12 doesn't hurt nearly as badly as losing it off of 5 or 6.
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Useful in carefully designed 'Mech. But it will cut into payload, so it will be hard to make good use of it. Durability without firepower is of limited use, for other targets with more firepower may draw more fire. Of course, a durable 'Mech is likely to finish a fight after everyone else has pounded each other to pieces.
Too bad the armor can't be used in OmniMechs. Frankly there's no reasonable reason for that limitation.
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Its the best way to make a zombie mech. Just make a mech with harden armor and move forward and that's about it. Good for a assault of a main base where speed isn't needed.
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For less downside, put it on a quad. It'll reduce the piloting penalty's impact
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My thing with 'hardened armor' is it doesn't (TO MY POV) seem really worth it.. It costs a HELL of a lot more, weighs (iirc) twice as much as regular armor for the same # of protection points, but allows 'double protective value'.. SO in effect, you are paying for the same "armor points" as regular, just in taking double the tonage of hardened armor..
So a 90 tonner, which maxes out (normally) at 279 points of armor, "Costing" 17.5 tons of weight to get, takes now, 35 tons to get there. BUT in effect gives exactly the same protection (unless i am missing something here).. All on top of giving a PSR penalty..
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It is good for mechs (due to the issues with the piloting skill check), very good for quads and THE CHEESE for tanks. An assault tank with 30 tons of armor and armored motive system is the stuff of nightmares.
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My thing with 'hardened armor' is it doesn't (TO MY POV) seem really worth it.. It costs a HELL of a lot more, weighs (iirc) twice as much as regular armor for the same # of protection points, but allows 'double protective value'.. SO in effect, you are paying for the same "armor points" as regular, just in taking double the tonage of hardened armor..
So a 90 tonner, which maxes out (normally) at 279 points of armor, "Costing" 17.5 tons of weight to get, takes now, 35 tons to get there. BUT in effect gives exactly the same protection (unless i am missing something here).. All on top of giving a PSR penalty..
yes and no
remember yes it takes 35 tons to max out at 279 total armor, but for all practical purposes you don't have 279 armor, you have 558 points of armor. it also is really resistant to penetration, so while ap munitions do "full normal damage (effectively double damage) to the hardened armor, they do NOT get critical checks until the armor is breached.
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Does this slow down game play at all since you have to halve damage all the time and things like that or is not that bad for most people? When I was reading it it just sounded more complicated than it needed to be and I thought it could slow the game down.
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It is good for mechs (due to the issues with the piloting skill check), very good for quads and THE CHEESE for tanks. An assault tank with 30 tons of armor and armored motive system is the stuff of nightmares.
>:D
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Does this slow down game play at all since you have to halve damage all the time and things like that or is not that bad for most people? When I was reading it it just sounded more complicated than it needed to be and I thought it could slow the game down.
"Divide by two" isn't hard for most people. The alternative would be producing record sheets with twice as many armor bubbles, which would be more cumbersome.
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you just go to Xs on the bubbles. Nine damage XXXX/. The only slowdown is how much longer it can take to kill the jerk who brought it (i'm usually the jerk)
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My thing with 'hardened armor' is it doesn't (TO MY POV) seem really worth it.. It costs a HELL of a lot more, weighs (iirc) twice as much as regular armor for the same # of protection points, but allows 'double protective value'.. SO in effect, you are paying for the same "armor points" as regular, just in taking double the tonage of hardened armor..
So a 90 tonner, which maxes out (normally) at 279 points of armor, "Costing" 17.5 tons of weight to get, takes now, 35 tons to get there. BUT in effect gives exactly the same protection (unless i am missing something here).. All on top of giving a PSR penalty..
Your math is a little off, in the backwards direction. Five tons of Hardened Armor gets you 40 points. The same five tons of Standard Armor gets you 80 points. But the 40 points of Hardened Armor will take 80 points of damage before it's all gone. Effectively you get identical protection for the same tonnage. The benefits of Hardened Armor are resistance to critical hits, and the ability to put more effective points of armor onto a single location than you can with standard armor (see: my first post in this thread). The drawback is -1 to Run MP and +1 to PSRs.
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It is good for mechs (due to the issues with the piloting skill check), very good for quads and THE CHEESE for tanks. An assault tank with 30 tons of armor and armored motive system is the stuff of nightmares.
Unfortunately, with all the tonnage that's going to eat up, even if you go with an XXL engine you're still going to be stuck with annoying your enemies to death. Or having a BA squad play Personal Space Invader on you for twenty or thirty rounds while everyone else avoids you.
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It is good for mechs (due to the issues with the piloting skill check), very good for quads and THE CHEESE for tanks. An assault tank with 30 tons of armor and armored motive system is the stuff of nightmares.
Eh, even if you go with something crazy like a 100 ton 3/5 XLE tank with an armored motive system, you only have ~25 tons available for armament for IS tech and ~30 tons for clan tech. The motive system upgrade is extremely heavy. I'd hope an armoring system that weighs as much as a Gauss Rifle would be able to nullify those bloody motive crits, 'cause a modest modifier sure doesn't seem worth 15 tons.
Bipeds? Maybe, but that PSR and movement modifier can hurt you more than the hardened helps. I'd genuinely be tempted to just stuff Reinforced Structure in there as an alternative and call it a day, it's not as heavy and the protection occurs after the breach but it does provide a slight modifier to crits without the PSR and movement penalty.
Tripods? Its inherent stability and quirks in their movement capabilities mostly offsets Hardened's disadvantages of lower running MP and PSR penalty. So I'd say it's a very good idea that's just waiting to happen.
Quads? Oh yes.
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My thing with 'hardened armor' is it doesn't (TO MY POV) seem really worth it.. It costs a HELL of a lot more, weighs (iirc) twice as much as regular armor for the same # of protection points, but allows 'double protective value'.. SO in effect, you are paying for the same "armor points" as regular, just in taking double the tonage of hardened armor..
So a 90 tonner, which maxes out (normally) at 279 points of armor, "Costing" 17.5 tons of weight to get, takes now, 35 tons to get there. BUT in effect gives exactly the same protection (unless i am missing something here).. All on top of giving a PSR penalty..
It gives half as many points, but they each take 2 damage. Effectively you have 1-1 trade off. In that case you are gaining extra protection from armor-piercing autocannon ammunition, tandern charge missiles, and some other weapon.
Its real gain is that you can BREAK the usual limits on effective armor. Effectively you can double-up on armor points. Imagine a 35 ton mech with the armor of a 70 ton.
On heavier mechs it means you dont have to load them with as many weapons as possible. You can actually make them very resilient.
The most major fault isnt actually any of that. Its that Re-Engineered Lasers IGNORE Hardened Armor's benefits. Effectively they just do DOUBLE damage, so you have have a Medium Re-Engineered Laser to 12 damage for 2.5 tons.
This thread is still up in "Ground Combat" by the way. https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61322.0
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yes and no
remember yes it takes 35 tons to max out at 279 total armor, but for all practical purposes you don't have 279 armor, you have 558 points of armor. it also is really resistant to penetration, so while ap munitions do "full normal damage (effectively double damage) to the hardened armor, they do NOT get critical checks until the armor is breached.
So in essence, its like having two lots of armor plating..
Your math is a little off, in the backwards direction. Five tons of Hardened Armor gets you 40 points. The same five tons of Standard Armor gets you 80 points. But the 40 points of Hardened Armor will take 80 points of damage before it's all gone. Effectively you get identical protection for the same tonnage. The benefits of Hardened Armor are resistance to critical hits, and the ability to put more effective points of armor onto a single location than you can with standard armor (see: my first post in this thread). The drawback is -1 to Run MP and +1 to PSRs.
Ahh.. Gotcha. Been a long time since i read the add on armor types..
It gives half as many points, but they each take 2 damage. Effectively you have 1-1 trade off. In that case you are gaining extra protection from armor-piercing autocannon ammunition, tandern charge missiles, and some other weapon.
So if one's not using all those specialty ammo types, its not really worth it to worry about taking hardened armor..
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Folks, don't post custom designs in here. Those go in Fan Designs and nowhere else.
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Something I didn't see mentioned is that Hardened is the only specialty armor which doesn't take critical slots. That makes it a lot easier to build into units, especially at the heavier end of the spectrum and quads which are liable to be crit starved.
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Folks, don't post custom designs in here. Those go in Fan Designs and nowhere else.
I... Sorry. I let my enthusiasm for Hardened go to my head.
So if one's not using all those specialty ammo types, its not really worth it to worry about taking hardened armor..
Lights. Lights and Hardened go together like peanut butter and bananas. They can easily buy the added Piloting skill to compensate for the Hardened problem, while carrying an adequate - for a light - warload and becoming much tougher in the bargain.
A 20-ton 'Mech with 3 ERMLs that moves 10/14 and can take a Gauss Rifle hit anywhere but its arms - including its head - is easily done. A 35-tonner that moves 7/10, has 168 effective points of armor and totes 12 tons of weaponry is within reach with lots of XL tech - and who cares about the extra crits, because they're behind armor that protects from crits! At 5/7, the same design drops 8 effective armor and one ton of weaponry, but with an SFE it's a serous zombie with 30 points of armor on its front center torso. A 35-ton scout that moves 9/13, has a 'mere' 128 effective points of armor, and carries a Bloodhound, Angel ECM, and TAG with four more tons for weaponry is also available.
Basically, light 'Mech movement and weaponry with medium/heavy 'Mech armor. This is a good thing.
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Something I didn't see mentioned is that Hardened is the only specialty armor which doesn't take critical slots. That makes it a lot easier to build into units, especially at the heavier end of the spectrum and quads which are liable to be crit starved.
The Benefits of Hardened armor:
Immune to Armor-piercing effects.
Can break effective Armor Point limit by a factor of 2.
Does Not use any additional critical slots (rare on armor)
Not limited by specific types of damage.
Drawbacks: Have to spend more tonnage to break armor point limit.
Penalty to Maximum Run Speed
Penalty to Pilot checks
More Expensive than standard (not absurdly though)
Re-Engineered Lasers do effectively Double Damage.
I like Light mechs best when combined with Hardened Armor as its unexpected to have them as durable. Ferro-fibrous and Endo-seteel are pretty standard as they have more slots than tonnage to spend. Extralight Engines are optional and expensive, but still worth it.
I can make an Urbanmech with Hardened Armor that can swarm anything. I call it the Roachie.
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How does it compare to the canon Hardened Urbie? :)
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How does it compare to the canon Hardened Urbie? :)
"Noooothing compaaaares to youuuuuuuu..."
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Your math is a little off, in the backwards direction. Five tons of Hardened Armor gets you 40 points. The same five tons of Standard Armor gets you 80 points. But the 40 points of Hardened Armor will take 80 points of damage before it's all gone. Effectively you get identical protection for the same tonnage. The benefits of Hardened Armor are resistance to critical hits, and the ability to put more effective points of armor onto a single location than you can with standard armor (see: my first post in this thread). The drawback is -1 to Run MP and +1 to PSRs.
It's also worth noting that there are valid numbers below "max armor". Hardened armor allows you to break the normal armor maximum on a Battlemech and increase your protection, with the drawback that you become more vulnerable to certain weapon types. (Do cluster munitions still do full damage against hardened armor? I recall that being one of the big drawbacks.) Even mounting 25 tons of armor on that hypothetical 90 tonner is a major change from the previous limit of 17.5 tons. Sometimes I think we sometimes get too fixated on full-armor-or-nothing.
On the other hand, it's one of the only ways to mitigate the head as a vulnerable location on a heavily-armored juggernaut. Nothing says "Is that all you got?" like taking a gauss slug to the face without missing a beat.
As with so many things, hardened armor has a role, but is not applicable to all use cases. It gives, and it takes.
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It's also worth noting that there are valid numbers below "max armor". Hardened armor allows you to break the normal armor maximum on a Battlemech and increase your protection, with the drawback that you become more vulnerable to certain weapon types. (Do cluster munitions still do full damage against hardened armor? I recall that being one of the big drawbacks.)
No. Hardened armor now takes two points of damage per pip, no rounding, so LB-X BBs just do normal damage against it. You no longer are especially vulnerable to cluster rounds (though Anti-Ballistic armor is) but on the flipside you no longer have extra protection against the 20 damage PSR threshold.
A 20-ton 'Mech with 3 ERMLs that moves 10/14 and can take a Gauss Rifle hit anywhere but its arms - including its head - is easily done. A 35-tonner that moves 7/10, has 168 effective points of armor and totes 12 tons of weaponry is within reach with lots of XL tech - and who cares about the extra crits, because they're behind armor that protects from crits! At 5/7, the same design drops 8 effective armor and one ton of weaponry, but with an SFE it's a serous zombie with 30 points of armor on its front center torso. A 35-ton scout that moves 9/13, has a 'mere' 128 effective points of armor, and carries a Bloodhound, Angel ECM, and TAG with four more tons for weaponry is also available.
Basically, light 'Mech movement and weaponry with medium/heavy 'Mech armor. This is a good thing.
Another advantage of using lights over heavier units: one of the most effective anti-Hardened Armor weapons is Armor Piercing autocannon rounds. Since they already impose a +1 penalty to hit, light mechs that are still moving 7/10 or 8/11 are a lost less vulnerable to being shot than slower mechs.
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Rather than using a fan design.. here is a light that uses hardened well:
Rokurokubi.
35 tons
Goes 7/10.
XL engine, endo-steel internals, XL Gyro
It has 12 hardened on each arm and side torsos (taking 24 damage to go in)
16! on the center (taking 32 damage, that is heavy mech levels)
7 on the head (for 14 points)
4 and 5 armour on the rear (8/10 repectively)
Sword
Now take your weapon pick:
IS ER PPC (1286BV2) or LAC/5 w/2 tons ammo. (998BV2)
So that is a light mech that can take a hell of a lot of damage, can generate a +4, and can plink you at range all day, or go specialty ammo and hunt your lights (precision) or assaults (AP) or infantry (flechette)
Yeah. Hardened on a light or even a medium is freaking sweet.
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Rather than using a fan design.. here is a light that uses hardened well:
Rokurokubi.
35 tons
Goes 7/10.
XL engine, endo-steel internals, XL Gyro
It has 12 hardened on each arm and side torsos (taking 24 damage to go in)
16! on the center (taking 32 damage, that is heavy mech levels)
7 on the head (for 14 points)
4 and 5 armour on the rear (8/10 repectively)
Sword
Now take your weapon pick:
IS ER PPC (1286BV2) or LAC/5 w/2 tons ammo. (998BV2)
So that is a light mech that can take a hell of a lot of damage, can generate a +4, and can plink you at range all day, or go specialty ammo and hunt your lights (precision) or assaults (AP) or infantry (flechette)
Yeah. Hardened on a light or even a medium is freaking sweet.
The ERPPC version is nice, not such a fan of the LAC/5 though, shorter range and half the stopping power. You're not going to plink someone with immunity unless you're fighting, like, an Ontos or something. I wouldn't count on generating a +4 movement modifier consistently since you need a perfectly straight line of 10 hexes with no forests/elevation changes/etc to manage it.
Lights are all well and good, but I'm personally more fond of the "Great Turtle" design philosophy for Hardened Armor implements.
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My problem with the Rokurokubi is that 2 tons of the very limited payload is eaten up by the Sword on the common -4T and -4K models. The -4K can get away with it thanks to the ERPPC, but it really hurts the -4T. That 5-points of damage from the Sword isn't really much; the design is begging for either TSM or a swap out for Medium Lasers. I'd rather take the -4X variant if at all possible - not only because it gets a Clan ERPPC, but because it gets a better melee weapon and recovers the 1 run MP by switching to Ballistic Reinforced Armor.
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"Noooothing compaaaares to youuuuuuuu..."
*shoots Eli Palmer* Oops, sorry, wrong song.
The Rokurokubi suffers from "clickitis," sadly. Its variants are far better designs than the base model.
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Yeah, I'd say that the Hitotsume Kozo is a much better model of what you can do with Hardened Armor on a lighter chassis. Though mixing the HPPC with TSM and a hatchet was an odd choice.
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At face-cleaving range you're still more accurate than at long range.
That or just shoot someone else. Literally anyone else.
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Actually, if you've got TSM running you're the same accuracy as if you were at long range. Still doable, though.
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If you have the TSM on the range penalty doesn't change. If you're suggesting that you wouldn't have TSM active at long range, why the blazes not? ??? That 8th run MP is the difference between requiring a straight line to get to +3 and having any sort of actual maneuverability at all to get the same +3.
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If you have TSM active, you've got a +1 to weapon attacks from heat. Combine that with the +3 minimum range penalty, you're looking at the same target numbers you'd need to make the attack at long range if you're running cool, +4.
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Tried a few experiments . The one that worked well enough to mention was something of a niche unit . I call it the an urban variant of the 9Q Awesome . It went 4/5 had 4 Snub-Nosed PPCs which saved 4 tons had Endo Composite internal Structure which saved 2 tons lost the ECM and small laser for another 2 tons with these 8 tons I gave it a 320 XL engine and 20 Double Heat Sinks . This used up all the critical Spaces and to use up the remaining tonnage I had to use Hardend Armor as the only means of using it up . Distribution of armor I made leg armor thin reasonong it would habitually take partial cover . The results playtested well . An enemy turns a corner in a city finds the hidden Awesome 9 hexes away blasting it every turn . The road ahead is filled with rubble it gets ugly quickly . The Snub-Nosed PPCs 9 short range is optimal in city fighting . No it by no means has max armor just condtionally a little more than a standard 9 Q where it counts . Because it has a bigger engine it walks faster and runs just as fast as the standard 9Q. Put The IS crits in legs , center torso and head . Have yet to try to remove a SN-PPC and 4 DHS to bring the Armor closer to Max the flywheel fire power seems to be decisive . It is still an evolving experiment . Feel free trying it yourself .
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Who remembers which part of the forum ALL customs belong in? C:-)
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I've fallen in so much love with the Commando Freyr. Yeah I miss that extra run point, but it can jump to compensate.
Question: Hardened armor reduces running MP by 1. Improved Jump Jets can provide jump mp equal to running MP. For a Commando with hardened armor, is the maximum IJJ jump MP 8 or 9?
And I really, really think if I was a MechWarrior I'd shave off a ton of standard armor to plate my 'Mechs head with Hardened armor. Even if I just use 8 points (one ton) I'm suddenly able to survive a Gauss Rifle hit to the head.
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Who remembers which part of the forum ALL customs belong in? C:-)
Yes, I understand, but... the problem is that no official designs use Hardened Armor well, thus failing to show its real potential. The Rokurokubi is OKAY, but even with TSM it's hard to justify a melee weapon on a light. Yes, it's a MWDA design, so constrained space, but the point still stands.
It's like the TRO3050 Catch-22: The official designs are terrible, but we can't discuss how to realistically retcon them with something like a "TRO 3050 Field Refits", because no one goes to fan designs and you mods CAN be a touch heavy-handed at times.
Though... other recent threads... do seem to deserve the locks. Seriously, keep it civil and on topic (which I am bad at times for not doing, I know!)
Really, with Hardened you don't need to go to max possible armor - which violates a lot of internalized design rules, but it's necessary. 120%, or even 150% in extreme cases, is MORE than enough armor to keep you in the fight long after anyone else is toast without compromising your ability to carry armament.
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Customs belong only in the Fan Designs forum. No exceptions. You wan to post a custom, put it there, then put a link to it in this thread. It's that simple.
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Advanced designs with Hardened armor:
Rokurokubi
Hitotsume Kozo
UrbanMech UM-R93
Stalker II
Shiro
Experimental:
Thunder Fox F11
Trebaruna XH
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XTRO Commando Freyr and the Great Turtle belong in this list too.
Advanced designs with Hardened armor:
Rokurokubi
Hitotsume Kozo
UrbanMech UM-R93
Stalker II
Shiro
Experimental:
Thunder Fox F11
Trebaruna XH
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I would assume it's equal to the original run speed, but that might need to be a rules question. Even with clantech, IJJs would be detrimental to what makes it a Commando. At least to me.
Question: Hardened armor reduces running MP by 1. Improved Jump Jets can provide jump mp equal to running MP. For a Commando with hardened armor, is the maximum IJJ jump MP 8 or 9?
And I really, really think if I was a MechWarrior I'd shave off a ton of standard armor to plate my 'Mechs head with Hardened armor. Even if I just use 8 points (one ton) I'm suddenly able to survive a Gauss Rifle hit to the head.
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Advanced designs with Hardened armor:
Rokurokubi
Hitotsume Kozo
UrbanMech UM-R93
Stalker II
Shiro
Experimental:
Thunder Fox F11
Trebaruna XH
Also forgetting the Mad Cat MK II Enhanced . . . I LOVE that thing
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I was trying to post non-unique designs, so I excluded the S7 units like the Turtle and Hatchiwara, and named ones like the Freyr
That said, I missed the MCmkII-E. oops. Most of the clan designs that flagged as CR (crit resistant) were using Ferro Lamellar armor, so I skipped them.
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The Viking IIC is another one with Hardened Armor.
Okay the question is Is Hardned Armor worth using. Yes and no is the Question and the Answer. There are different kinds of armor with downsides compared Standard Armor. Hardened is general purpose with some more minor problems and one Achilles Heel.
I would say yes its worth using, but more because youve already stacked on Endo-Steel, and probably an Extralight Engine. So youre trading space for weight, and then using Hardened Armor to trade weight for additional protection.
The published ones are all right but for me I see Hardened Armor working best with Energy Weapons. They have the lowest weight even accounting for Heat Sinks. Its easy to modify something like an Awesome or more likely a Clan mech with very heavy armor and Energy weapons. It would be a kind of "zombie mech" even with an Extralight Engine as you could maximise armor on the torso.
Overall I like Hardened Armor because its not a "maybe" with a specific target its effective against and bad against everything else. Its basically the NextGen of Armor. Its just a shame that their is such a Lethal Joke weapon like the Re-Engineered Laser to ruin your day. Still so long as you use Hardened armor to increase the overall protection to more than 1-1 you still are highly effective against 99% of the game weapons and even then your Achilles Heel would only be so-so if you have 75-100% Hardened Armor Points.
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The Viking IIC is another one with Hardened Armor.
Okay the question is Is Hardned Armor worth using. Yes and no is the Question and the Answer. There are different kinds of armor with downsides compared Standard Armor. Hardened is general purpose with some more minor problems and one Achilles Heel.
I would say yes its worth using, but more because youve already stacked on Endo-Steel, and probably an Extralight Engine. So youre trading space for weight, and then using Hardened Armor to trade weight for additional protection.
The published ones are all right but for me I see Hardened Armor working best with Energy Weapons. They have the lowest weight even accounting for Heat Sinks. Its easy to modify something like an Awesome or more likely a Clan mech with very heavy armor and Energy weapons. It would be a kind of "zombie mech" even with an Extralight Engine as you could maximise armor on the torso.
Overall I like Hardened Armor because its more a "maybe" with a specific target, its basically the NextGen of Armor. Its just a shame that their is such a ridiculously powerful Lethal Joke weapon like the Re-Engineered Laser to ruin your day. Still so long as you use Hardened armor to increase the overall protection to more than 1-1 you still are highly effective against 99% of the game weapons and even then your Achilles Heel would only be so-so if you have 75-100% Hardened Armor Points.
And RE-lasers are weighty. A Medium RE is 2.5t, for 6 damage, 6 heat. 3/6/9, -1 to hit. So you can't mount too many of them.
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Overall I like Hardened Armor because its more a "maybe" with a specific target, its basically the NextGen of Armor.
I'd argue Ferro-Lamellor is the "NextGen" of armor. It's 87.5% the points per ton of Standard, but offers >= 20% more protection. It completely stops LBX cluster, halves SRMs, and stops armor piercing effects similar to Hardened. Other than the crit space requirements, it has no drawbacks. Plus it can be used in Omni construction, unlike Hardened.
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I agree . . . and wonder when we will get a HH vehicle using it or a Raven ASF, they get even more benefit from crit protection.
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Ferro-Lamellor is unusual. I have to keep checking the rules to remind me how it works. But I dont think it reduces LB-x down to 0 because the rounds to damage in 5 point clusters, and then reduction happens. Need an FAQ to confirm.
Lamellor armor is Okay if a nightmare on math to argue about its reduction, but at most it gives a 20% bonus to defense for 12 slots. On smaller mechs where you have excess slots but not enough weight, that is fine, but at the same time...well Stealth Armor also exists.
Hardened Armor is when you are #1 wanting to increase your armor point by 50-100% and #2 you have tonnage but not space. Heavy-Assault types get more use out of it, but its still possible to make Light-Mediums into Roach/Zombie Mechs.
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Hardened armor always seeme to be a marriage made in heaven for the quads. Quars already suffer from pitiful internal space, and get a piloting bonus to offset the piloting malis of the heavy armor. Couple with the ease of going hull down, throw on some smoke... you could get something very well suited to moving from one firing position backwards to another, and use the extra hardiness (paid for by reduced firepower) to fix an opposing force long enough to flank/airstrike/artillery.
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Ferro-Lamellor is unusual. I have to keep checking the rules to remind me how it works. But I dont think it reduces LB-x down to 0 because the rounds to damage in 5 point clusters, and then reduction happens. Need an FAQ to confirm.
LBX pellets hit in groups of 1 damage each. They are completely reduced by Ferro-Lamellor.
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Weapons reduced to zero damage effects by Ferro-Lamellor Armor (such as LB-X cluster munitions), may not inflict pilot injury in the event of a cockpit-location hit, nor may they deliver a penetrating or “floating” critical from special hit location rolls.
they definitely do
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Ferro-Lamellor is unusual. I have to keep checking the rules to remind me how it works. But I dont think it reduces LB-x down to 0 because the rounds to damage in 5 point clusters, and then reduction happens. Need an FAQ to confirm.
Ferro-Lamellor explicitly reduces LB-X pellets to 0 point.
Says so in TacOps, says so in BattleMech Manual.
The basic rule for the armor is pretty unambiguous in itself:
"Ferro-lamellor armor reduces all damage by 1 point for every 5 points (or fraction thereof) delivered per hit."
EDIT Interestingly BMM omits "to a minimum of 0 points" but that is presumably because that statement is not really needed.
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One thing is certain to me, that Harden Armor is a god send for Armored vehicles. Even if your not using those optional vehicles rules (from TacOps) for the crits for them. Thankfully Harden Armor doesn't slow down a combat vehicles vs a Mech mounting the stuff.
Couple examples are:
The Von Luckner's VNL-X71 Yakuza variant his hilariously evil one. A Crime Tank with 30 tons of Harden Armor, going 3/5 with LBX-20. I only say hilariously since it's tank used for crime gangs. Doing a driveby the slow way.
More mainstream, NK-1C Narukami Heavy Tank and it's variant. Same tonnage of Harden armor and speed, but it's packing gauss and two ppcs, while the Boost-C3 variant has twin gauss rifles and single ppc.
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I agree . . . and wonder when we will get a HH vehicle using it or a Raven ASF, they get even more benefit from crit protection.
the Von Luckner VNL-X71 Yakuza
Narukami Assault Tank
some more
LBX pellets hit in groups of 1 damage each. They are completely reduced by Ferro-Lamellor.
Well thanks, I double checked. heh, Lb-x are the only cluster weapon I know of that has that problem. So was Lamellor just made specifically the be Immune to Lb-x cluster or was that an oversight?
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Ferro-Lamellor is unusual. I have to keep checking the rules to remind me how it works. But I dont think it reduces LB-x down to 0 because the rounds to damage in 5 point clusters, and then reduction happens. Need an FAQ to confirm.
Lamellor armor is Okay if a nightmare on math to argue about its reduction, but at most it gives a 20% bonus to defense for 12 slots. On smaller mechs where you have excess slots but not enough weight, that is fine, but at the same time...well Stealth Armor also exists.
Hardened Armor is when you are #1 wanting to increase your armor point by 50-100% and #2 you have tonnage but not space. Heavy-Assault types get more use out of it, but its still possible to make Light-Mediums into Roach/Zombie Mechs.
As everyone else has already said, F-L can reduce shots to 0 damage.
The math isn't too bad. F-L just reduces any hit by 1 point every 5 points. A hit of 1-5 goes down 1 point, a hit of 6-10 goes down 2 points, and so on.
That also means that 20% bonus is actually a minimum, not a maximum. At worst that medium laser pointed at your head will "only" reduce its firepower to 80% of its original, from 5 to 4 pts. But at its best you can eliminate oncoming damage completely (LB-X pellets being the most obvious case).
Stealth armor and F-L are of two different philosophies. Stealth makes you harder to hit at long and medium ranges, but at the cost of heat and it doesn't work at short ranges, requires an ECM suite to work, is incompatible with a lot of other neat technologies like C3 and Targeting Computers (and Artemis FCS?) while F-L applies to (almost) any damage you take regardless of the situation making it less niche and more useful and versatile as front-line armor.
It probably wasn't intended *specifically* to nullify LB-Xs specifically, but I don't think it's an oversight either, just a perk.
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Well thanks, I double checked. heh, Lb-x are the only cluster weapon I know of that has that problem. So was Lamellor just made specifically the be Immune to Lb-x cluster or was that an oversight?
To my knowledge, the devs haven't said. It's possible neither of those is true.
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I'd argue Ferro-Lamellor is the "NextGen" of armor. It's 87.5% the points per ton of Standard, but offers >= 20% more protection. It completely stops LBX cluster, halves SRMs, and stops armor piercing effects similar to Hardened. Other than the crit space requirements, it has no drawbacks. Plus it can be used in Omni construction, unlike Hardened.
I tend to agree.
Ferro-Lamellor is the first real defensive game changer in a very long time, in-Universe.
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Stealth makes you harder to hit at long and medium ranges, but at the cost of heat and it doesn't work at short ranges, requires an ECM suite to work, is incompatible with a lot of other neat technologies like C3 and Targeting Computers (and Artemis FCS?)
Active C3 or Artemis don't work with active Stealth Armor because the 'Mech is treated as if under enemy ECM field so C3 and Artemis IV/V stop working. But you can disable Stealth to make use of those, at least one Raven variant is clearly built with this kind of ambushing in mind.
Targeting Computers do work with Stealth Armor. They do not work with Null-Signature System, which is also incompatible with C3 systems (neither can't be present with NSS), never could figure out this one unless the idea is the TarComp does rely on active scanning along with whatever else it does to add accuracy.
Not sure what happens with Boosted C3 and Stealth Armor, since the former is only cut off by Angel ECM but Stealth Armor does not specify what kind of ECM effect active Stealth Armor should be. I would assume Boosted C3 does not work with Stealth Armor, at least that is likely the intent.
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the Von Luckner VNL-X71 Yakuza
Narukami Assault Tank
some more
What I was referring to was the FerroLam armor, HH being Hell's Horses (FerroLam on a Enyo? Enyo III? it gets put on a diet to get to the proper weight of 50t with the original's weapons) and the Ravens being the ASF interested Clan . . . never looked, speaking of the Ravens can it be put on Protos?
As far as Stealth Armor, I guess it would depend on what type of ECM you are using- Clan, Guardian or Angel . . . hmm, Nova CEWS & Stealth Armor- Society next gen!
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I think this is tunring into "which armor is best?".
Okay Hardened Armor is there when you want a massive increase in durability, by about 50-100%.
Ferro-lamellor is more like 20%, but uses far less weight.
Stealth Armor is protection for Sniper and Support units.
Ferro-Fibrous is low-weight armor
Standard is Master-or-None or Jack-of-All trades depending on what you are mounting it on.
On Lighter units low-weight armor tends to be more attractive, while the opposite tends to be the case with heavier weight.
Two ends of the spectrum I think of just for Light mechs are "Roaches" and "Snipers". Giving Hardened Armor to a light mech hurts less so than slower mechs as the penalty is fixed, not matching your speed. Its possible to use Hardened Light mechs for various duties, like guaranteeing you get close enough for ECM, TAG, or BAP ranges. Or you can use it to make pint-sized Brawlers.
Ferro-Lamellor is a small increase for a big cost overall in terms of slots and weight. Id prefer to use Ferro-Fibrous to cut weight down for more equipment(and then only on light-mediums), Stealth Armor for long-distance tactical units, or Hardened Armor for sheer durability. I does not "WOW" me.
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I believe there was a thread on the rules page that explicitly ruled that Boosted C3 and Bloodhound Active Probes don't work at the same time as Stealth Armor. The Stealth unit isn't being jammed by anything, it's deactivating anything that actively broadcasts a signal to prevent it from being detected.
Regarding FL Armor's damage reduction, Silver Bullet Gauss Rifles and Light Machine Guns are also affected.
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And single missile hits from LRMs . . . so you roll for 6, 11, or 16 and its a single 4,two 4s or three 4s that hit locations.
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I believe there was a thread on the rules page that explicitly ruled that Boosted C3 and Bloodhound Active Probes don't work at the same time as Stealth Armor. The Stealth unit isn't being jammed by anything, it's deactivating anything that actively broadcasts a signal to prevent it from being detected.
Regarding FL Armor's damage reduction, Silver Bullet Gauss Rifles and Light Machine Guns are also affected.
Probably makes various versions of piranhas feel really sad. Losing 50% damage of the majority of your weapons really hurts.
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Probably makes various versions of piranhas feel really sad. Losing 50% damage of the majority of your weapons really hurts.
Aye, but a Piranha probably shouldn't be engaging actual Battlemechs anyways.
F-L is extremely useful for anti-infantry 'Mechs since those 2 point clusters don't fare so great against F-L. It's a shame no canon Piranha variant has it.
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Ferro-Lamellor is a small increase for a big cost overall in terms of slots and weight. Id prefer to use Ferro-Fibrous to cut weight down for more equipment(and then only on light-mediums), Stealth Armor for long-distance tactical units, or Hardened Armor for sheer durability. I does not "WOW" me.
FL isn't particularly heavy, especially when compared it to Hardened of all things (14 points per ton vs 8 ). It also really undersells both the universal applicability of its mitigation and the lack of painful or potentially catastrophic downsides. For instance, Hardened's -1 run MP means that it's a harder to hit your maximum possible TMM unless you overbuild your engine (such as a 5/8 dropping to 5/7 with Hardened, or 7/11 dropping to 7/10). Statistically, that's going to result in a few more hits landing and offsetting the armor increase. And Hardened doesn't actually mitigate damage, so taking a AC20 hit is still going to result in a PSR, which has that increased difficulty.
Ferro Lamellor actually negates damage. That AC20 is going to be doing only 16 damage, so no PSR. It also continues to apply its bonus so long as a single point of armor remains. Fire that AC20 at a torso with 1 point of FL is going to result in only 15 points of internal damage.
Given faction availability, yeah, Hardened Armor designs are going to be more prolific than Ferro Lamellor, but that's a case of taking hardened lemons and making lemonade. Long term, I would expect Ferro Lamellor to become much more common over Hardened; and in fact, would expect Hardened to be superseded in favor of Ballistic Reinforced.
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FL isn't particularly heavy, especially when compared it to Hardened of all things (14 points per ton vs 8 ). It also really undersells both the universal applicability of its mitigation and the lack of painful or potentially catastrophic downsides.
Incorrect: Hardened gives 16 points per ton, just like standard - calling it '8' but making each point count twice means it's 16. The only thing that takes that away is re-engineered lasers, which are not exactly common.
F-L is a better armor, I'll give it that. That damage mitigation, despite requiring yet another bookkeeping step in a game rife with them, is worth a lot, and it has the same TAC ignoring properties as Hardened - even if it doesn't have the same dampening effect (with a -2 once you get THROUGH the armor!) without ANY penalties other than 'faction availability'.
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Probably makes various versions of piranhas feel really sad. Losing 50% damage of the majority of your weapons really hurts.
SRM boats too. Trust me, bringing a Juliano to a fight and seeing an Osteon plonked down on the other side of the table pretty much guarantees a sinking feeling in your stomach...
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SRM boats too. Trust me, bringing a Juliano to a fight and seeing an Osteon plonked down on the other side of the table pretty much guarantees a sinking feeling in your stomach...
If we're being fair, seeing an Osteon on the other side of the map is bad news for just about anything.
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Yeah, my solution was to not even bother, and focus on killing the other stuff on that side, such as the Rhinos and Alacorns.
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Yeah, my solution was to not even bother, and focus on killing the other stuff on that side, such as the Rhinos and Alacorns.
Osteons, Rhinos, and Alacorns?
Somewhere Thomas Hogarth needs a cigarette.
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Incorrect: Hardened gives 16 points per ton, just like standard - calling it '8' but making each point count twice means it's 16.
TacOps explicitly says Hardened is 8 points per ton. It's just that each point can absorb 2 damage.
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Yeah, I used one and the little Society mech as a networked force for a 5k force in our TT group's test for a tournament. Across the table it was 2 heavies and a medium all C3i linked from WoB. He was surprised I just had a single mech that was firing . . . chewed through the armor only to hit the reinforced structure IIRC. Wrecked the Blakists but the Osteon was not in great shape though it could walk away. My only time facing or fielding Society equipment, had to look up a lot of the special rules and verify them with the agent.
It would be a trip if the Clan Protectorate was given that tech from the Foxes . . .
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TacOps explicitly says Hardened is 8 points per ton. It's just that each point can absorb 2 damage.
...Which means each ton gives 16 points of protection, equivalent to standard armor.
EDIT: A refusal to admit how something works always makes see red, whether it's intentional or not. Comment redacted.
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Keep it calm.
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Incorrect: Hardened gives 16 points per ton, just like standard - calling it '8' but making each point count twice means it's 16. The only thing that takes that away is re-engineered lasers, which are not exactly common.
And Armor-Piercing autocannon ammo. Which is one of the main reasons to bother with the stuff.
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Ballistic Reinforced Armor had a wider range of possibilities than Laser Reflective, but its still not 100% effective, uses up about 2/3rds weight as Hardened and uses a large chunk of critical slots. Against Inner Sphere battlemechs is quite good as inferior Inner Sphere Energy Weapons means you are unlikely to fight a strong counter. Ballistic and Missile Weapons are more likely. Against Clan Mechs then that is a severe flaw.
For me I build Energy Heavy units with additional weapons to avoid easy Reflective armor counters. Ballistic Armor is a terrible counter against me.
A large Flaw with more reasonable armors is the Critical slot cost. Its not likely you can just swap any Standard armor for 7-14 slots except on lighter mechs.
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Incorrect: Hardened gives 16 points per ton, just like standard - calling it '8' but making each point count twice means it's 16. The only thing that takes that away is re-engineered lasers, which are not exactly common.
*Nothing to see here*
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Cluster munitions are considerably more common than re-engineered lasers, and also treat hardened armor (effectively) as 8 points per ton. (A full pip marked off per munition)
Pretty sure those are the old rules. Current rules say each bubble takes two hash marks, one for each point of damage. So LBX doesn't "round up", it's still 1 damage.
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Pretty sure those are the old rules. Current rules say each bubble takes two hash marks, one for each point of damage. So LBX doesn't "round up", it's still 1 damage.
You're right, and I was corrected earlier in the thread some time ago. I sit corrected.
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When we talk about PSRs from taking damage, we mean 20 points of damage coming in, right? If an Osteon takes a pair of cERllas, you X out 10 armor pips, 5 for each laser and then do your faceplant check, with +2 difficulty, in the appropriate phase.
I'm guessing its the same for all special armors.
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You know, I never thought about that (and I play tabletop so rarely anymore that I don't have experience enough to say!). But yeah, if I light up a Savage Wolf (with its ferro-lamellor) with an Annihilator and nail it with 20 LBX pellets, it wouldn't mark any damage. But it did get hit with 20 points worth, so... does it make a PSR check? I don't have books here at work, so I have no idea, but... never thought about that before.
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From the discussion before on . . . IIRC a Malice vs a Savage Wolf . . . no. For instance, hit it with a LRM20 or AC/20 . . . neither will force a PSR b/c you do 16 points of damage- and PSR is based on damage done from what I understand.
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PSRs are based on damage total before any reduction.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=10958.msg319678#msg319678
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zero damage is a wonky blindspot in the rules. with FL, mechwarriors don't take pilot hits but vehicles still make motive crit checks
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PSRs are based on damage total before any reduction.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=10958.msg319678#msg319678
Seems logical. I mean, the weapons hit, even if the armor wasn't damaged by the effect.
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PSRs are based on damage total before any reduction.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=10958.msg319678#msg319678
Huh. I found this topic which says the opposite... ???
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=3391.0
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On the one hand, yours is more recent, so I'm inclined to believe that one. On the other, mine was actually asked in the proper forum, and I don't believe in rewarding a failure to follow simple instructions. Decisions, decisions...
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. . . ? its asking in the TW sub-forum about a TW basic rule.
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FL and Hardened Armors are from TacOps, not Total Warfare.
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Yes, but PSR is a TW rule . . . anyway, it was in the rules forum section even if folks think it should have been in a different sub-forum. Its not like it was answered in the Ground Combat or Inner Sphere forum.
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Ferro-Lamellor, as well as all other damage-reducing advanced armors, are TacOps. SInce I knew F-L armor was TacOps, I knew that any questions about it had to be found in the TacOps forum, so that's where I searched, so there was no possible way for that other answer to be found.
I don't mean to be a stick in the mud, but there are reasons why even minor rules like that exist, and people that ignore them for no good reason just piss me off.
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No, I see your point about looking for the answer b/c of Tac-Ops armor. IMO its six/half dozen situation, I only remember the answer I did b/c of the Malice vs Savage Wolf discussion which I think referenced that PSR answer. Did this get included in the BMM or any Errata, if not it might be a good idea to go jog the proper elbow since as it was pointed out 3145 gets more hardened/reflec/ferro-lam.
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Guys, guys, we're forgetting the more important issue. If you're firing cluster ammo from an LB-20X Annihilator at anything with FL armor, CPS is going to take your Annihilator away for criminal neglect not feeding it correctly.
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Guys, guys, we're forgetting the more important issue. If you're firing cluster ammo from an LB-20X Annihilator at anything with FL armor, CPS is going to take your Annihilator away for criminal neglect not feeding it correctly.
*plays Sarah MacLaughlin music in the background*
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No, I see your point about looking for the answer b/c of Tac-Ops armor. IMO its six/half dozen situation, I only remember the answer I did b/c of the Malice vs Savage Wolf discussion which I think referenced that PSR answer. Did this get included in the BMM or any Errata, if not it might be a good idea to go jog the proper elbow since as it was pointed out 3145 gets more hardened/reflec/ferro-lam.
I think there was answer about PSRs and Reflec that basically boiled down "whether PSR happens depend on how many circles you fill", with the Hardened armor being something of an exception since it absorbs more damage but doesn't reduce it.
Presumably the inverse is also true, that is 10 point punch to Reflec armor counts as 20 points and causes a PSR, assuming it doesn't go internal.
This would be in-line how battles are described in novels, where authors usually describe loss of balance being caused by rapid loss of armor and that shifting balance of 'Mech. 20 points of standard armor is 1.25 tons, so i kinda see the idea.
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No, I see your point about looking for the answer b/c of Tac-Ops armor. IMO its six/half dozen situation, I only remember the answer I did b/c of the Malice vs Savage Wolf discussion which I think referenced that PSR answer. Did this get included in the BMM or any Errata, if not it might be a good idea to go jog the proper elbow since as it was pointed out 3145 gets more hardened/reflec/ferro-lam.
The BMM doesn't appear to have anything explicitly relating to this.
That said, straining to read between the lines, the text does differentiate between "damage value" and "damage". Damage value being the ideal damage an attack or effect would deal, with damage bring the what the unit actually receives. The BMM does also specifically say: "A ’Mech only makes one Piloting Skill Roll for taking 20 or more damage points in a single phase, regardless of how many points of damage is taken that phase." If my reading of that is correct (and I freely admit that it's really questionable), then PSRs are based on what is physically marked off on the sheet. If the intention was for 20 damage prior to mitigation to cause a PSR, I would have expected it to say damage value instead. YMMV, though.
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I had the chance to witness a Stalker II with hardened armor in a game recently. Everyone kept shooting at it and it just kept coming. It absorbed huge amounts of damage and just laughed. I would really hate to be on the receiving end of one or more of those.
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How often did it fall over? That's the real weakness of the Stalker II: Hardened Armor and a Torso-Mounted Cockpit are an unpleasant combination if you're trying to keep your mech upright.
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Yeah, IMO it sort of forces people to pay for better piloting- which is not something folks usually do unless you have a Cicada ChargeMonkey.
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The other side of it is that if I gave a chess-king unit like a Stalker II to Mechwarrior Jim Bob DerpPilot, it begs the question what photos he has of me as blackmail. That caliber of Mech, particularly in the post-Jihad era, goes to your elite warriors- and if you don't have any to put in it, you probably don't have the Mech for very long either.
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I'll see about sorting the damage modification out, as not even the BMM solves the issue.
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The other side of it is that if I gave a chess-king unit like a Stalker II to Mechwarrior Jim Bob DerpPilot, it begs the question what photos he has of me as blackmail. That caliber of Mech, particularly in the post-Jihad era, goes to your elite warriors- and if you don't have any to put in it, you probably don't have the Mech for very long either.
I agree, and its lance mates should be pretty solid too . . . to test it out in MM, I put it in a lance with a Juliano, Anzu and . . . a Awesome? I think they were vets, ground down a pair of random Lyran lances.
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The Stalker II is a creature of weird compromises. While the ELRM is a good and necessary weapon in theory on the tabletop, in practice using it means having at least a 3-4 mapsheet wide battlefield which is... a bit impractical. And weighs a LOT. For a weapon that does maybe 4-7 damage a poke. The ML battery is something that surprised me when I went back to look at it, but backed up by a targeting computer it's the most solid thing about the 'Mech.
I just wish it sacrificed some of that Hardened, went to maybe 120% of normal armor instead of 160ish, to mount a more reasonable array of weaponry.
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It is good for mechs (due to the issues with the piloting skill check), very good for quads and THE CHEESE for tanks. An assault tank with 30 tons of armor and armored motive system is the stuff of nightmares.
Only if you're the other guy. Having them on your side is a whole other kinda dream... :drool:
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The Stalker II is a creature of weird compromises. While the ELRM is a good and necessary weapon in theory on the tabletop, in practice using it means having at least a 3-4 mapsheet wide battlefield which is... a bit impractical. And weighs a LOT. For a weapon that does maybe 4-7 damage a poke. The ML battery is something that surprised me when I went back to look at it, but backed up by a targeting computer it's the most solid thing about the 'Mech.
I just wish it sacrificed some of that Hardened, went to maybe 120% of normal armor instead of 160ish, to mount a more reasonable array of weaponry.
ERLRMs seem to be the new LGR for the FWL region. Fortunately they're not sticking them on quite as many mechs as they did with the LGR. They do make some sense on the Stalker II, as they insure that it's almost impossible for an opponent to get to a point where they can plink with impunity. But against dedicated long-range fighters it's still at a serious disadvantage. It's definitely a case of dangerous overspecialization.
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I don't hate it like I do some things (Grigori, ugh), but looking at it in Alpha Strike says it all: S3/M4/L2 OV2 with 14 Armor and 7 Structure. Fairly weedy damage for a juggernaut, coupled with its puny TMM and high PV, means that it can be more or less ignored while you break its buddies, and then gang up on it afterwards.
But man, that Viking IIC. Almost it persuades me that Hardened and Assaults can go together. I've been wanting one for my Ghost Bear Dominion force for... quite some time.
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Yeah, that thing's going to bombard you with missiles till the bins run dry, then walk off the field under its own power just because nothing can stop it from doing so.
You know what it really reminds me of? The Rhino fire-support tank: LRMs and an absurd amount of armor.
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The challenge with retrofitting Mechs with Hardened Armor is finding the mass to carry enough armor to justify the change. Eg swapping FF is probably not worth the effort. Std is one for one, then you have to find weight savings somewhere to get more than juat the penetration bonuses.
That is where the Viking stepped up. Std armor. Clantech LRMs has massive weight savings. Traditionally you would have tried for 4 LRM20s or something but Hardened allowed the Viking IIC to really keep that Viking look and feel. Yeah they could have changed up the leg guns but if you are going to Viking you Viking like a Viking.
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This is why I like hardened armor on quads more than bipeds. Quad turrets are TL now so you don’t have to worry about getting flanked so easily
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This is why I like hardened armor on quads more than bipeds. Quad turrets are TL now so you don’t have to worry about getting flanked so easily
And the Quad piloting bonus helps pay for the piloting penalty from the Hardened Amror... and Quads limited critical slots mean they can more easily pay the tonnage for Hardened Armor.
Throw in a Torso Cockpit to cut down on ‘pilot loss to head rattling’... yeah. Quads and Hardened go together like eggs and bacon. Though like everyone else says, Ferro-Lamellor and Ballistic Reinforced have more general use, due to the lack of crippling drawbacks. Hardened probably wants a later generation version that trades the movement and PSR penalties for a space penalty.
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Hardened probably wants a later generation version that trades the movement and PSR penalties for a space penalty.
Ballistic Reinforced is described as being the next generation of Hardened. That's about as close as it's going to get, due to the gameplay imperative of making everything sufficiently unique.
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BRA reduces head-cappers substantially, by taking the AC20, UAC20, LBX20, GR and HGR (except at close range) out of the running (and AC10, LBX10 for crit). But still has cERPPC, HPPC and cHLL that can headcap, and the 10 damage laser/PPC weapons will penetrate.
Plus LBX it rounds to a minimum of 1 (so shotgun does full damage, but slug half damage). So isn't as effective against that. It also doesn't give crit resistance.
Decent, but that is a trade-off. (I know, why not take the BRA Hatamoto-Suna against the Viking IIC hardened, see how it goes. 2086BV for the -Suna, 2780 for the viking, so make the -suna a 3/4 pilot (2,878) and fight that battle. GR and MRM20s against a ton of LRMs. BRA vs hardened).
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Well, those LRMs are going to be hosed. Damage halved, rounding down, means each five point cluster is doing 2 damage at most - that's arguably more effective than hardened is, since you'd mark two and one half circles of damage with it.
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It's a race to see if the Viking IIC can penetrate the Suna's armor before running out of ammo. The Viking IIC only has enough ammo for 12 rounds of fire, while the Suna can fire its MRMs for 18 rounds and its Gauss for 24.
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Ballistic Reinforced is described as being the next generation of Hardened. That's about as close as it's going to get, due to the gameplay imperative of making everything sufficiently unique.
You arent wrong. I just find flashbulbs sufficiently common that I find it hard to go for full up Ballistic Reinforced. If I'm going for 'special tough armor', I tend to either go Ferro-Lamellor or Hardened - because my perception (true or false!) is that if I mount anything that is good against X, most of what it sees will be Y.
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Weirdo's comment about Blue Shield got me wondering . . . do we have any Hardened with Blue Shield? are they compatible? would you do it? How about with the BRA?
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Weirdo's comment about Blue Shield got me wondering . . . do we have any Hardened with Blue Shield? are they compatible? would you do it? How about with the BRA?
I didn't see anything about construction limitations in TacOps. So long as the crit space requirements can be met (which would immediately count out Stealth), it should be mountable with any armor, or even CLPS or Null-Sig. If you really want to hate on PPCs, use Blue Shield with Reflective. IIRC, a standard PPC would only do 2 damage, and Clan ERPPCs do 3.
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I wouldnt do Hardened plus Blue Shield, I dont think. You already have such an investment in resilience (assuming full Hardened) that I have trouble justifying pursuing more toughness - a full hardened machine needs to also have some punch, or it is just a large rock.
Ballistic Reinforced? I might. Would depend on tonnage - crit slots are starting to get tighter at that point. But if your Ballistic Reinforced, PPCs represent a greater share of your incoming damage - so it is tempting.
A lot really depends on threat environment. If Im fighting omni-heavy opponets, Im more likely to go Ferro-Lammelor or Hardened, because the Omnimechs can more easily change weapons than I can change armor. If Im building for the Capellans in 3145, Ballistic Reinforced plus PBS would be ideal... the davions love their autocannon, and are pretty big on PPCs if I recall correctly.
A lot of this comes down to who is building the machine, with what tactical doctrine, against what anticipated opponent. If Im going in blind, something that looks a lot like an Osteon, standard engine, compact gyro, max mounts in head and chest for the ultimate in zombification - is going to be tempting.
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How often did it fall over? That's the real weakness of the Stalker II: Hardened Armor and a Torso-Mounted Cockpit are an unpleasant combination if you're trying to keep your mech upright.
No one failed their piloting check.
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Weirdo's comment about Blue Shield got me wondering . . . do we have any Hardened with Blue Shield? are they compatible? would you do it? How about with the BRA?
BRA + Blue Shield seems like a pretty killer defense, if you can afford all the tonnage and critical slots.
Among various benefits, I think the blazer cannon, and point-blank heavy gauss might be the only head-capper left to menace your pilot.
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BRA + Blue Shield seems like a pretty killer defense, if you can afford all the tonnage and critical slots.
Among various benefits, I think the blazer cannon, and point-blank heavy gauss might be the only head-capper left to menace your pilot.
Clan Heavy Large Laser also will do it (16 damage).
That said, the following will still penetrate to make a crit roll:
UAC20, LBX20, AC20, HGR (ranged), HPPC+Capacitor, cERPPC+IS Capacitor (not sure if it is compatible).
Heck if the Hatamoto-suna dropped the ER Medium laser and the Apollo FCS from the MRMs, it could easily mount the BlueShield.
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cERPPC+IS Capacitor (not sure if it is compatible).
The Clan ERPPC is specifically excluded from being capacitored. I suppose you could take the Illegal quirk for it, but that's up to the your group.
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The Clan ERPPC is specifically excluded from being capacitored. I suppose you could take the Illegal quirk for it, but that's up to the your group.
Capacitor systems for CERPPCs became legal in the equipment update in TRO 3145.
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Capacitor systems for CERPPCs became legal in the equipment update in TRO 3145.
*double checks back of TRO3145*
Wow, I would not have seen that in a million years on my own. Any canon designs that use it?
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None that come to mind.
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None that come to mind.
Going from memory here, since I don't have the TRO, but don't we have that combo on the Leviathan III?
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Going from memory here, since I don't have the TRO, but don't we have that combo on the Leviathan III?
You are correct. I think there is another aerospace fighter that has them as well. I have played maybe 2 games of aerotech, but as I recall time and scale are completely different and the PPC Cap. doesn't have any recharge time that leads it to fire every other turn. If I'm wrong on that someone feel free to correct me.
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Yeah, for TT that every other turn for something that just adds 5 points of damage to a 15 pointer already . . . meh.
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the lev III is the only clan unit i'm seeing with a capacitor and clan erppc
there are three fighters that use an IS erppc + cap - Sternenstrum A (3145), Stuzaku 14 (Prototypes), and Zero CX-3 (XTRO: ComStar)
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Aerotech is kind to Capacitors because it has 60 second turns compared to Battletech's 15 second turns. So no charging time.
Also Aerotech is kind to Reflective armor because physical attacks and falling are a little bit different and lasers are more common.
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Aerotech is kind to Capacitors because it has 60 second turns compared to Battletech's 15 second turns. So no charging time.
Also Aerotech is kind to Reflective armor because physical attacks and falling are a little bit different and lasers are more common.
And the fact that Aerotech is kind to both of them at the same time is a really happy coincidence.
I find the existence of various specialty armors a good argument for diversity in armament in circumstances where I would otherwise, for logistics and powergaming reasons, be inclined to standardize heavily.
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I'll see about sorting the damage modification out, as not even the BMM solves the issue.
Looping this back, as it got sorted out.
Please note that we are updating this answer, to keep it in line with the following thread:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=3391.0
In short, PSRs forced by damage are based on the damage actually taken by a unit, not what would theoretically have been dealt before any possible damage modifications.
This will be reflected in the this year's BattleMech Manual errata.
This means that you need 40 standard damage inflicted on a Hardened Armor unit before a PSR is needed, which makes it suck less.
It's still a mediocre investment in many cases though.
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Dunno, if its a Lyran waddling right up the middle . . . it helps. Of course it also helps more if you are using the TacOps rule about every 20 points of damage adding another +1 since Hardened means you need 40 to reach the same threshold.
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Looping this back, as it got sorted out.
This means that you need 40 standard damage inflicted on a Hardened Armor unit before a PSR is needed, which makes it suck less.
It's still a mediocre investment in many cases though.
But Hardened Armor doesn't reduce damage, it just takes two points of damage per pip.
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But Hardened Armor doesn't reduce damage, it just takes two points of damage per pip.
Yes. So you need to input 40 damage to output 20 damage points, which then results in a PSR.
If you just apply 20 damage, you only do 10 damage points, and no PSR.
Same with Composite internal structure, or the damage of an ammo explosion getting vented by CASE: the actual pips removed is what causes the effects. "Damage *TAKEN*." (p.60, TW)
That's the intent of the rules.
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Except that with Hardened Armor, unlike other specialty armors, you're still taking the same amount of damage: you get hit with an AC/20 in your Stalker II, you've taken 20 damage even though you're only filling in 10 pips. Whereas a Hatamoto-Suna that takes the same hit has only taken 10 damage: the Stalker II would need to make a PSR while the Suna would not. Hardened Armor breaks the normal rule where one pip equals one point of damage.
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So, hardened armor and reinforced structure effectively reduce damage by 50% like reflective or reactive or ballistic-reinforced armor vs appropriate weapons? But instead of being merely multiplied by 0.5, it is treated a bit differently, being presented as absorption effect, presumably to retain fractions.
This makes hardened armor pretty good, previously it had uses but its drawbacks were pretty big deal. This adds further bonus to the armor, especially for heavier 'Mechs as they can't be knocked down as easily anymore.
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Hardened Armor doesn't do anything different with regards to damage taken, unlike the other armors brought up in this topic (Ferro-Lam, et. al.) which apply a scalar to the damage value. An AC20 still does 20 damage, the book keeping is just different. And since it's still 20 damage regardless of bubbles marked off, you roll for PSR.
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I third this.
Hardened Armor's description in Tactical Operations states that every point of hardened armor can sustain 2 points of damage. It does not state that the damage is halved.
It'd presumably work similarly with Reinforced Internal Structure: getting hit by an AC/20 on an exposed piece of reinforced structure doesn't "halve" the damage, each point's just soaking up 2 damage. On the other hand, getting vulnerable Composite Structure clobbered by an AC/10 would mean that the vulnerable structure can only absorb half a point each, but it doesn't mean it took double damage and would roll for a PSR unless other weapons are also involved.
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You guys are aware this is errata, right, and not some random musing by a guy with a Mod Beemer, right?
"Number of pips removed" is now the standard by which PSRs are judged.
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You guys are aware this is errata, right, and not some random musing by a guy with a Mod Beemer, right?
I get no respect, I tell ya...
Oh you meant Xotl... ;)
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You guys are aware this is errata, right, and not some random musing by a guy with a Mod Beemer, right?
"Number of pips removed" is now the standard by which PSRs are judged.
From the errata thread that is linked, Xotl refers to damage points specifically: The PSR is based on actual damage points taken, not "pips" or filled circles per se (which is almost a pointless distinction except specifically when it comes to hardened armor).
Something like Ferro-Lamellor reduces the number of damage points taken. Hardened Armor (281 tac ops) only increases the amount of damage a single point can sustain; It does not reduce the number of damage points actually taken.
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Then we'll ask Xotl to update the language to be more clear.
Paul and I were both party to the errata in question, and can state concretely and conclusively, that number of pips removed is the intent.
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So would doing 20+ bubbles with Re-engineered Lasers also force a PSR? Because that would also change some other errata questions, such as :
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=33515.0
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A weapon does X damage.
X damage will do Y damage *points*.
Often X = Y
Depending on Armor, Internals, etc. X might != Y.
So would doing 20+ bubbles with Re-engineered Lasers also force a PSR? Because that would also change some other errata questions, such as :
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=33515.0
Yep, I'm wrong there. Thanks for finding that. In that example (PPC + R-LL) the damage points taken so far is 5+9 = 14.
Paul
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Yep, I'm wrong there. Thanks for finding that. In that example (PPC + R-LL) the damage points taken so far is 5+9 = 14.
Paul
In other words, a point of Hardened Armor does not sustain 2 points of damage, it instead takes half damage with the possibility of taking damage in half-points.
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One thing not mentioned in that errata post is that there will also be wording for Hardened Armour itself, which will make clear the principle so that people don't have to try and extrapolate from the more general PSR ruling.
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Cool.
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You guys are aware this is errata, right, and not some random musing by a guy with a Mod Beemer, right?
"Number of pips removed" is now the standard by which PSRs are judged.
Translation - the PSR isn't because the AC20 does 20 damage to your armor, but because the AC20 took off 20 points worth of armor, which means a sudden loss of mass which puts the gyro off balance?
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Translation - the PSR isn't because the AC20 does 20 damage to your armor, but because the AC20 took off 20 points worth of armor, which means a sudden loss of mass which puts the gyro off balance?
Yes, or in the case of Hardened Armor: only 10 pips are removed: no PSR.
Same with F-L armor: 16 pips removed = no PSR
20 LRMS hit on Reactive: 10 pips removed = no PSR
Only 5 Hardened left on a location hit by an AC20: 5 armor pips removed + 10 internals: no PSR
The Internals are actually Composite (who does this?) 5 armor removed, 20 internals: PSR time
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I should actually add:
For fluff reasons: mass isn't often removed from a 'Mech, but materials are rendered useless. So doing 20 damage points to something doesn't remove X amount of mass per se. Destroying a location doesn't remove it's mass, just renders it as useful as dead weight scrap.
As such, the PSR isn't just caused by loss of mass.
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Translation - the PSR isn't because the AC20 does 20 damage to your armor, but because the AC20 took off 20 points worth of armor, which means a sudden loss of mass which puts the gyro off balance?
20 points worth of standard armor weighs the same as 10 points worth of hardened armor so that isn't it.
Yes, or in the case of Hardened Armor: only 10 pips are removed: no PSR.
Same with F-L armor: 16 pips removed = no PSR
20 LRMS hit on Reactive: 10 pips removed = no PSR
Only 5 Hardened left on a location hit by an AC20: 5 armor pips removed + 10 internals: no PSR
The Internals are actually Composite (who does this?) 5 armor removed, 20 internals: PSR time
A LRM20 that gets all of its missiles in hitting Reactive would remove 8 pips (4 clusters of 5 points rounds to 2 points per cluster)
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Ultimately the question is if Hardened armor also to falldown checks. If it increases the threshold, good. If not youll just be knocked down and killed regardless of your total.
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Per Xotl and company, that question has been answered.
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A LRM20 that gets all of its missiles in hitting Reactive would remove 8 pips (4 clusters of 5 points rounds to 2 points per cluster)
Yeah, that's what I get for typing too rapidly and not thinking it through. Thanks for the catch.
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Yeah, that's what I get for typing too rapidly and not thinking it through. Thanks for the catch.
I do that when I'm talking all the time. It's how I keep getting in trouble with the police, I start talking about my next deal to smuggle faberge eggs into the country and pretty soon people are knocking on... my door...
...sonofa...
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I do that when I'm talking all the time. It's how I keep getting in trouble with the police, I start talking about my next deal to smuggle faberge eggs into the country and pretty soon people are knocking on... my door...
...sonofa...
I'm beginning to notice that your every heist relies on the use of your prison wallet.
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I think the bottom line here is that Hardened Armor is more awesome than most of us thought... That's not necessarily a bad thing...
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Im actually pleased by this. Hardene has several bad drawbacks. This helps.
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I think the bottom line here is that Hardened Armor is more awesome than most of us thought... That's not necessarily a bad thing...
Yes.
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I'm beginning to notice that your every heist relies on the use of your prison wallet.
Resisting urge to make a joke.
I think the bottom line here is that Hardened Armor is more awesome than most of us thought... That's not necessarily a bad thing...
No it's pretty good actually. And I just imagined an Awesome with Hardened armor and peed a little. That would be scary as hell.
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I just imagined an Awesome with Hardened armor and peed a little. That would be scary as hell.
One of many designs where the weight savings from DHS does some amazing things. You can keep the mech identical except for a HS swap, not even bother with ES or an (X)LFE, and nearly max out the Hardened Armor cap. BV2 goes from 1605 to 2064, to give a quick sense of how much you've just improved the mech, and the price difference is only about 600,000 C-Bills.
When I get some time, I may post some Hardened Armor designs over in Fan Rules, just to play with this idea a bit. Simple upgrades(and there are none simpler than DHS swaps in terms of effect on the unit) are a fun little design area.
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Does run into the drawback that most assault and heavy designs do with hardened... dropping from 5 to 4 move on a run is damned painful.
Hmm. While your stripping the heat sinks out and installing doubles, is there room for TSM there? Even if it is hard to juggle in combat, we could at least use it to raise our operational speed back up to 5....
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It seems questionable to take Hardened and TSM on any design meant to fight at range. Taking the +1 penalty to hit and the loss of granularity in heat management doesn't seem worth it just to get your movement back. The Hitotsume Kozo or a hypothetical TSM-equipped Rokurokubi, both of which have speed and a melee weapon, are better templates for the Hardened/TSM combo.
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It seems questionable to take Hardened and TSM on any design meant to fight at range. Taking the +1 penalty to hit and the loss of granularity in heat management doesn't seem worth it just to get your movement back. The Hitotsume Kozo or a hypothetical TSM-equipped Rokurokubi, both of which have speed and a melee weapon, are better templates for the Hardened/TSM combo.
Here, I am more interested in speed between engagements (where otherwise hardened armor would cause it to fall behind even other assaults) than on map speed during tactical combat (where an AWS is just going to find some partial cover heavy woods and put down roots)
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Speed between engagements is generally assumed to be Cruising/Walking speed, which are unaffected. Unless you're suggesting that the pilot keep the heat pegged at 9 for multiple hours of sustained running? That sounds... unwise.
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Speed between engagements is generally assumed to be Cruising/Walking speed, which are unaffected. Unless you're suggesting that the pilot keep the heat pegged at 9 for multiple hours of sustained running? That sounds... unwise.
Point.
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Hardened armor on a scorpion, yay or nay?
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I think we're treading pretty close to the Fan Designs prohibition here.
Generally speaking, people seem to agree that Hardened on a quad is good. Doesn't eat into the limited crit slots, and the inherent stability of quads offset Hardened's +1 to PSRs. Bonus points if the design is still fast enough to still have 1 or 2 MP left over after hitting its maximum TMM. A 6/8 can still hit a +3 TMM in something other than a straight line, whereas a 5/7 will most of the time max out at +2.
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Hardened armor on a scorpion, yay or nay?
I would think that depends completely on what you're looking to do otherwise with it. Just saying 'I'm cramming hardened armor on!' without any real goal can be mixed. The quad bonuses would help with the PSR penalty, butone of the Scorpion's claims to fame over its 55-ton counterparts like the Griffin is that it's a little quicker- you lose that straight-up with hardened armor. What role do you want your Scorp to play? That really makes a difference on whether or not the upgrade makes sense- if mobility is important, don't waste your time.
As Brakiel said, I'm happy to see what you brew up, but taking it down to Fan Designs is a must.
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Unless you're suggesting that the pilot keep the heat pegged at 9 for multiple hours of sustained running? That sounds... unwise.
That said I have always wondered how long the average pilot could do it, if his TSM mech was ordered to "GET HERE NOW!"
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I suspect that keeping a mech that hot for more than 5-10 minutes would start causing significant problems with its systems.
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Yall are likely right, now that I think about it.
Interesting fluff question on the flip side - does a Mech with RISC Supercooled Myomers hold up better under extended heavy use? The ability to sustain a full run would be an interesting operational/strategic bonus for an otherwise pretty poor system.
I may fluff it that way on my own designs to help justify it. :)
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I would think that depends completely on what you're looking to do otherwise with it. Just saying 'I'm cramming hardened armor on!' without any real goal can be mixed. The quad bonuses would help with the PSR penalty, butone of the Scorpion's claims to fame over its 55-ton counterparts like the Griffin is that it's a little quicker- you lose that straight-up with hardened armor. What role do you want your Scorp to play? That really makes a difference on whether or not the upgrade makes sense- if mobility is important, don't waste your time.
As Brakiel said, I'm happy to see what you brew up, but taking it down to Fan Designs is a must.
I am looking at ways to potentially upgrade using everything from standard to experimental tech. I like the Scorpion, always have, but it is one of the mechs where 3050 did not do it justice. I look at the Great Turtle and think that with rhe cockpit in the right place is a solid quad. Tge Barghest as well. I will work on some options of the Scorpion and other classics with Hardened Armor, post them in the designs section and link back here.
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=61720.0
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Yall are likely right, now that I think about it.
Interesting fluff question on the flip side - does a Mech with RISC Supercooled Myomers hold up better under extended heavy use? The ability to sustain a full run would be an interesting operational/strategic bonus for an otherwise pretty poor system.
I may fluff it that way on my own designs to help justify it. :)
Safe bet: Anything involving the words 'RISC' and 'extended heavy use' will end in unspeakable tragedy. It may not be immediate, but it won't be more than a few minutes. ;D
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Yall are likely right, now that I think about it.
Interesting fluff question on the flip side - does a Mech with RISC Supercooled Myomers hold up better under extended heavy use? The ability to sustain a full run would be an interesting operational/strategic bonus for an otherwise pretty poor system.
I may fluff it that way on my own designs to help justify it. :)
SCM automatically gives a mech the Difficult to Maintain quirk.
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Safe bet: Anything involving the words 'RISC' and 'extended heavy use' will end in unspeakable tragedy. It may not be immediate, but it won't be more than a few minutes. ;D
I'd broaden that range to anything involving the words 'RISC' and 'use' myself
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While ‘difficult to maintain’ is not 1:1 in opposition to ‘high sustained cruising speed’, its a good thing to remember.
To get this back on topic - does the ruling above change anyones mental math on Hardened Armor RE: Falls? If it takes 40 (or more) damage to trigger the PSR, the pnealty on the role is less of a worry to me.
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To get this back on topic - does the ruling above change anyones mental math on Hardened Armor RE: Falls? If it takes 40 (or more) damage to trigger the PSR, the pnealty on the role is less of a worry to me.
It's not a game-changer, but it's definitely a nice bonus.
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While ‘difficult to maintain’ is not 1:1 in opposition to ‘high sustained cruising speed’, its a good thing to remember.
To get this back on topic - does the ruling above change anyones mental math on Hardened Armor RE: Falls? If it takes 40 (or more) damage to trigger the PSR, the pnealty on the role is less of a worry to me.
IMO, it depends on the mech. Fast or midspeed mechs with Hardened? Definitely a modest boon. They can still generate decent TMMs, so even if focus fired by a couple of foes they have a fair chance of not racking up 40 points of standard damage. Something like the Stalker II or Mad Cat Mk II Enhanced? Doesn't feel like it substantially changes the equation.
What I think the errata ruling does do is give a minor, indirect buff to armor-defeating weapons/ammo: RE Lasers, Tandem Charge Warheads, and especially Armor Piercing ammo. AP ammo was a bit of a hard sell at the smaller calibers. Under the previous ruling, an AC5 only counted as 5 damage towards PSRs regardless of standard or AP ammo. With the current ruling, AP ammo basically boosts each AC up one class - a LAC5 looks just like a AC10 against Hardened, but for substantially less tonnage.
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What I think the errata ruling does do is give a minor, indirect buff to armor-defeating weapons/ammo: RE Lasers, Tandem Charge Warheads, and especially Armor Piercing ammo. AP ammo was a bit of a hard sell at the smaller calibers. Under the previous ruling, an AC5 only counted as 5 damage towards PSRs regardless of standard or AP ammo. With the current ruling, AP ammo basically boosts each AC up one class - a LAC5 looks just like a AC10 against Hardened, but for substantially less tonnage.
It doesn't really buff them, it just nerfs the rest so it feels like you're getting a better deal with AP than you actually are.
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The errata will definitely make my strategy of chain dumping my friends hardened armor forces on their backside way harder, if not impossible. Hmm. Back to the dtawing board. 🤔
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I have a silly question which I would answer myself but my interstellar ops book is not handy. Can you put hardened armor on a lam or quadvee?
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LAMs cannot. I don't see anything in IO that states Quad Vees cannot use hardened armor.
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LAMs cannot. I don't see anything in IO that states Quad Vees cannot use hardened armor.
I knew it was too good to be true.
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I knew it was too good to be true.
I wouldnt think LAMs have the spare tonnage to really have mass for hardened. What was the play, here?
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Nothing as of yet... just forming ideas. :-D
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Well, with LAMs, remember that they suffer from an incredible list of detriments. Like any super-flexible unit in a game, they are very, very hard to balance - the sweet spot between ‘to bad to be good at anything’ and ‘just good enough that they can leverage their flexibility to win 100-0 every time’ is very, very narrow.
Attempting to find a way to make them useful outside the very narrow role they have will likely end in tears. That said, its a fun mental exercise and I’m now curious to see what you come up with - and how Hardened Armor would have helped!
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Basically I was looking at the Pheonix Hawk LAM from TRO:3025. Were it possible to put in advanced tech, I would have kept the weapons the same, but switched an the 12 Heat Sinks for 10 double (allowable), added an XL engine, not allowable and then simply used the 6.5 tons from the engine and the two tons from the heat sinks to give it 16.5 tons of hardened armor, a bit more that double the tons of the standard armor. While this will mean a minimal increase in points, those points now take two hits to destroy. So you have a mech that can go 15 hexes in air-mech mode and take 36 points of damage to the side torsos and 40 to the center. With 10 points minimum to the rear torsos.
Pretty interesting in my book.
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I'm guessing the in-game reasons for why Hardened Armor slows down mechs and makes them more prone to falling over means that they're not something that be made to function on something as finicky and delicate as a LAM.
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Makes sense. Don't want your airmechs lawndarting when they attempt to fly away.
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I'm guessing the in-game reasons for why Hardened Armor slows down mechs and makes them more prone to falling over
This annoys the heck out of me, those rules.
It's like whoever wrote those literally can't answer the question: what's heavier, a ton of Hardened Armor, or a ton of feathers?
You paid for that tonnage in construction. There should be 0 penalties. 20 tons of autocannon causes no mobility penalty. 20 tons of armor does? Illogical.
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Yeah, and you can build a mech with 2/3rds of its mass on one side of it with no penalties, either. This game has a lot of voodoo sharks (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VoodooShark).
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I see it as not so much an issue of tonnage as it is an issue of gaps that are normally left open being covered up with the Hardened armor construction. That -2 on the crit-chance table means that the armor's blocking shots into areas of the 'Mech that regular armor doesn't cover; that coverage comes at the cost of reduced mobility. It's not an internal bulk that takes up internal slots, but an external bulk that gets in the way of movement.
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I see it as not so much an issue of tonnage as it is an issue of gaps that are normally left open being covered up with the Hardened armor construction. That -2 on the crit-chance table means that the armor's blocking shots into areas of the 'Mech that regular armor doesn't cover; that coverage comes at the cost of reduced mobility. It's not an internal bulk that takes up internal slots, but an external bulk that gets in the way of movement.
That makes 0% sense to me.
"external bulk" is literally "taking up" space in air. Effect = 0.
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That makes 0% sense to me.
"external bulk" is literally "taking up" space in air. Effect = 0.
Which is why, unlike Ferro-Fibrous armor, Hardened doesn't take any crit slots. That's what I was trying to say.
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All of Hardened Armor's drawbacks are 100% made up for balance purposes.
The part that never made sense to me is why it's supposed to be "balanced" against anything when we literally have BV to do that without having to make tech arbitrarily worse than it could be.
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Paul, have you ever worn real armor? The better protected your joints, the less mobile they are.
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The part that never made sense to me is why it's supposed to be "balanced" against anything when we literally have BV to do that without having to make tech arbitrarily worse than it could be.
Exactly this. FASA was phobic about actually creating something that was objectively better, it seems. Always had to add a little nerf.
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Paul, have you ever worn real armor? The better protected your joints, the less mobile they are.
By that logic, I should gain mobility and PSR advantages by putting on less/no armor. And I should be able to add more of my DEX modifier to my Stealth attempts.
The problems you speak of: that's why we have quirks.
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Exactly this. FASA was phobic about actually creating something that was objectively better, it seems. Always had to add a little nerf.
Post 3050, the developers have been very careful to make nothing better than the 3050 Clantech. Different, but not better.
My in-universe theory for that is that Clantech is right up to the edge of 'as good as is technically possible'. Maybe given a major breakthrough at some basic level, or a century or two of technological progress in materials technology, or a 'start over from first principals' is necessary to make something better.
On the specific example of Hardened Armor - if you remove all the drawbacks, it just becomes the new standard, and all the other choices go away. If you want to add new toys, you have to make them different, but not clearly better - or the new, clearly better, replaces all that came before (this was the second Clantech problem - it wasnt just better, it didnt have an edge, it was 'this is a whole different game' better. The only way they could even keep the IS tech base around is to bury the IS Scientists and Leadership behind a wall of stupidity sufficient that a trillion-person civilization cannot replicate the Clan Tech Advance and get it into general production in a -century-.
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Paul, have you ever worn real armor? The better protected your joints, the less mobile they are.
The stars must have aligned, because I'm going to side with Paul. ;) I understand your point when looking at RL examples of personal armor. Medieval knights come to mind in their very heavy and cumbersome plate armor. IIRC, a fallen knight many times would not even be able to get up on his own! That right there is a serious lack of mobility for the sake of protection. We're not looking at RL though; we're looking at game rules. With that in mind, there are two issues I see with your argument: first is that there is no scaling in the protection versus mobility equation. The use of Hardened Armor automatically inflicts the associated penalties, no matter the weight of armor used. For example, the base Cicada carries less than half its max possible armor. Why should carrying the same 4 tons of Hardened Armor impede its movement more than applying double the amount of standard plate? Second, we have the Armored Components, which are exactly what you say should compromise mobility, but don't. You could create a design that armors every actuator in the legs, and it would not slow the 'Mech or add a piloting modifier.
On the specific example of Hardened Armor - if you remove all the drawbacks, it just becomes the new standard, and all the other choices go away.
This is a much more convincing argument, though still having an IS tech base 25 years after the introduction of Clan tech kind of throws a wrench at it. Without drawbacks, everything should be Clan and all the IS stuff should have just gone away, right? Same with most 3025 stuff. Because much of the game is universe-driven, it would still be fairly easy to hand-wave reasons for it not becoming widespread.
I'd actually be in favour of something more along the lines of it taking up a crit in each limb to represent the encumbering effects. Just enough to keep it from being an auto-include on new designs to get the extra protection on the head and -2 on TACs. Other than that, I'm with Paul that a ton is a ton, especially when comparing a ton of armor with a ton of armor.
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The stars must have aligned, because I'm going to side with Paul. ;) I understand your point when looking at RL examples of personal armor. Medieval knights come to mind in their very heavy and cumbersome plate armor. IIRC, a fallen knight many times would not even be able to get up on his own! That right there is a serious lack of mobility for the sake of protection.
And I'm going to kick right back at you over this one. I HAVE worn real life armour, and fought in it. Of several different styles. A properly armoured Knight can move fully in full body plate. The armour has more articulation than the human body. The myth about not being able to get up is from a non medeival art piece that purported to be of a winch to hoist a jouster up. That did not happen. While jousting armour was heavier than combat armour, and the helmet was fixed to the shoulders for protection, it was still very mobile, and they had no problems mounting a horse.
Anyways, the historian in me had to point that out.
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Plate armor that was properly fitted was easy to move in. Chain mail armor, which tended to weigh less than plate but didn't distribute the armor's weight as easily was harder to move in, and, of course, being made of flexible rings of metal it was far more flexible than plate.
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...and you can't just redesign a human's knees, hips, elbows, and shoulders to account for armor. You can, however, do that on an articulated machine, or even make the joints themselves out of hardened material. This even fits with the fiction, as most actuator hits are described as being "frozen" instead of shattered.
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The stars must have aligned, because I'm going to side with Paul. ;)
I'm getting a lottery ticket!
...and you can't just redesign a human's knees, hips, elbows, and shoulders to account for armor. You can, however, do that on an articulated machine,
And we can note that 'Mech armor is not worn, but installed. It's hard-mounted to the endo skeleton using fixed supports. The armor is literally more like an exoskeleton than it is like a suit of armor.
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...and you can't just redesign a human's knees, hips, elbows, and shoulders to account for armor. You can, however, do that on an articulated machine, or even make the joints themselves out of hardened material. This even fits with the fiction, as most actuator hits are described as being "frozen" instead of shattered.
Paul, you should buy two tickets... ColBosch has convinced me of your point... :)
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Paul, you should buy two tickets... ColBosch has convinced me of your point... :)
I'm gonna be rich!
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Anyways, the historian in me had to point that out.
That's cool. Always interesting to know how inaccurate information comes about. :)
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I was suprised that hardened armor could not be in a LAM . I thought the only restriction was no armor that ate critcal space . Still if you are making an updated LAM look to see if Composite IS , Small cockpit , and armed with a LVPL and an srm would do ? Composite IS takes up no crit space and small cockpit and varible pulse lasers fill the Inner Sphere weapons only . Snub Nosed PPC or Plasma Rifle may make it interesting . I hope you got the yes or no answer for this thread .
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For more on armour, including videos of someone doing full workouts in it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzTwBQniLSc)
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Discussions on LAMs should probably be taken to a new thread.
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I think I ave found a loop-hole.
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I think I ave found a loop-hole.
Sounds like something to ask about in the Rules Forum, in case it's something the devs overlooked and really need to close.
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Sounds like something to ask about in the Rules Forum, in case it's something the devs overlooked and really need to close.
Actually it is right in the rules. Patchwork armor. Use hardened to protect the important stuff and cover the arms and legs in standard. No movement penalty.
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That's no loophole, that's always been the intent of patchwork armor rules.
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Well then, that makes sense.