Author Topic: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships  (Read 9302 times)

Rim Worlder

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transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« on: 06 August 2012, 02:19:57 »
are there official rules for transporting VTOL vehicles ?

are they transported in Vehicle Bays or Aerospace Bays is what I am wondering ?

A Karnov looks like it should be transported in a Aerospace bay like I would expect a conventional fighter to be but something like a Yellowjacket could be transported by a vehicle bay I suspect.

I'm only asking about transporting on Dropships between planets, not launching or deploying which I would expect to happen only after having been unloaded from a grounded dropship.

If there are canon rules, can you quote source and page number please.

thank you in advance.
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Colt Ward

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #1 on: 06 August 2012, 03:43:46 »
I would be willing to wager anything can be launched from at Aerospace Fighter bay.

At least once.
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Sigma

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #2 on: 06 August 2012, 04:16:45 »
Bays are for quick combat deployment. Pure transport, you just use cargo space for anything.

EDIT: I'm sure there was a TRO that talked about carrying some kind of Vtol in Light Vehicle Bays for combat. Can't recall off the top of my head though.
« Last Edit: 06 August 2012, 04:19:15 by Sigma »

A. Lurker

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #3 on: 06 August 2012, 05:19:05 »
For starters, there's the "Carrying Units" section running from Total Warfare p. 89 to p. 91. Those rules explicitly cover only "hot" mounting and dismounting of carried units, i.e. the sort of operations that might happen in a hurry in an outright battle zone; as such, they only apply to VTOLs carried in bays (vehicle bays, for the record, since no matter how they may be individually depicted in the artwork they are vehicles, not fighters), not as cargo, and then they cannot mount or dismount the carrying unit under their own power but require multiple turns to be loaded or unloaded by crane.

Tactical and Strategic Operations then expand on that a bit. The "Moving Cargo" section in Strategic Operations (pp. 41 - 44) may be of particular interest since it addresses how to mount and dismount units on a slower "outside play" timescale as well as how to deal with units and personnal carried as generic cargo instead of in their appropriate bay type.

Archangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #4 on: 06 August 2012, 05:54:21 »
For starters, there's the "Carrying Units" section running from Total Warfare p. 89 to p. 91. Those rules explicitly cover only "hot" mounting and dismounting of carried units, i.e. the sort of operations that might happen in a hurry in an outright battle zone; as such, they only apply to VTOLs carried in bays (vehicle bays, for the record, since no matter how they may be individually depicted in the artwork they are vehicles, not fighters), not as cargo, and then they cannot mount or dismount the carrying unit under their own power but require multiple turns to be loaded or unloaded by crane.

While VTOLs are not aerospace fighters, for purposes of transporting them via DropShip they do act as fighters.  While transporting them in vehicle bays would allow access to perform maintenance/repairs on them, mechanics would still need to remove their rotor blades to prevent damage, injury or even loss of life.  This is support by the Capabilities section of the Pinto Attack VTOL: "The VTOL's rotors dismantle in less than five minutes, allowing Pintos to be stored in conventional vehicle or cargo bays as well as in the dedicated aerospace bays other VTOLs require." (TRO3060, p16)

I believe the exact rules regarding transporting VTOLs will be included in Interstellar Operations.
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Terminax

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #5 on: 06 August 2012, 06:57:33 »
IO shouldn't have rules like that and there's been absolutely no indication that there will be. So let's not grandstand shall we?

The rules trump TRO fluff, and the rules place VTOLs under vees, not aerospace fighters.

Rim Worlder

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #6 on: 06 August 2012, 08:30:35 »
The rules trump TRO fluff, and the rules place VTOLs under vees, not aerospace fighters.

this is what I was thinking.  VTOLs are constructed under vehicle rules not aerospace rules despite the appearence of some like the Karnov.  But somewhere, and it could have been from the Pinto TRO entry, I had the impression that I had read somewhere that they needed Aerospace bays to be transported.

I know I can put them in general cargo but if I want to rapidly deploy a pair of Ferret VTOLs or Boomerang Spotter planes for recon when I land, what is my best option ?
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Charlie Tango

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #7 on: 06 August 2012, 08:33:33 »

There's a rules questions forum.  This sounds like a good topic to go ask about in there.
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Rim Worlder

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #8 on: 06 August 2012, 08:37:49 »
There's a rules questions forum.  This sounds like a good topic to go ask about in there.

I know, but answers seem to be a long time coming.  I asked about mines last week and am still waiting.

I was hoping someone more observant than I would just go  book / page because I couldn't find it in either TM, TO or SO.
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Rim Worlder

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #9 on: 06 August 2012, 08:40:12 »
I would be willing to wager anything can be launched from at Aerospace Fighter bay.

At least once.

The unit is not currently in the financial position that it needs to address payroll reduction in quite such a manner.  Not yet.
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Jayof9s

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #10 on: 06 August 2012, 08:42:31 »
The unit is not currently in the financial position that it needs to address payroll reduction in quite such a manner.  Not yet.

Sure, but it is always a fun way to space a pirate.  O0

Edit: and to stay on topic - I've always assumed they went in vehicle bays due to their being fit into the vehicle catagory. I don't see (most) VTOLs benefiting from fighter catapults, etc. and the ruling I've seen in the past has been 'appearance is for fluff' so even the ones that look more like planes have no rules associated with that appearance, even if that was not a fighter bay question (i.e. it is safer to just pretend they all look like helicopters if that makes it easier to accept why there are no rules for launching them out of fighter bays via a catapult.)

I would however love to see an official answer for this so I suppose I will post the question - the closest I've found had to do with *launching* them from a fighter bay while the dropship was in flight (the answer was no).
« Last Edit: 06 August 2012, 08:47:26 by Jayof9s »

Archangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #11 on: 06 August 2012, 08:49:39 »
So let's not grandstand shall we?

Since when is stating a personal belief about an upcoming product grandstanding?   ???

Quote
The rules trump TRO fluff, and the rules place VTOLs under vees, not aerospace fighters.

The "Carrying Units" section lumps them in with aerospace fighters in the sub-section "VTOLs, Small Craft and Fighters".
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Jayof9s

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #12 on: 06 August 2012, 08:58:45 »
The "Carrying Units" section lumps them in with aerospace fighters in the sub-section "VTOLs, Small Craft and Fighters".

Is that in errata? My copy of TW does not list VTOLs in either the smallcraft/fighter or vehicle bays?

Edit: Nevermind, I see it more clearly defined below that on page 90. I was looking at the table on page 89. I've still got my question open but edited it to include that page #. Until there's an official response I would say that entry in TW makes it as clear as we'll find that they do require a fighter/small craft bay.
« Last Edit: 06 August 2012, 09:08:27 by Jayof9s »

Rim Worlder

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #13 on: 06 August 2012, 09:18:16 »
I see it more clearly defined below that on page 90. I was looking at the table on page 89. I've still got my question open but edited it to include that page #. Until there's an official response I would say that entry in TW makes it as clear as we'll find that they do require a fighter/small craft bay.

I've just been reading the same thing.  For some reason I expected it to be an "advanced rule" and didn't think to check TW.

I believe the answer is I need aerospace bays from the wording on page 90 despite the table on page 89 not mentioning VTOLs specifically.

thank you all for your answers and help.


I'll keep an eye on that offical thread as well.
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Charlie Tango

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #14 on: 06 August 2012, 09:21:48 »
In the Corrected Third Printing PDF, VTOL's are only specifically mentioned as being separate from vehicles as far as it comes to mounting and dismounting dropships.  On p89, vehicles go in vehicle bays per the Small Craft/DropShip Bay Table.  It's only when mounting/dismounting DropShips that they are treated differently and are treated like Small Craft or Fighters:

These units cannot expend MP to mount an aerospace unit; i.e. they cannot mount a Small Craft or DropShip under their own power. Instead, they must be in an adjacent hex (within two levels of the level of the underlying hex of the carrying Small Craft or DropShip) during the End Phase of a turn. It then takes four subsequent turns for the DropShip to use cranes to load the units into the carrying aerospace unit; during the End Phase of the fourth turn after the turn in which the units were in an adjacent hex, they are loaded and strapped down. Doors are not occupied when loading units in this fashion.

  --  From Total Warfare, Corrected Third Printing PDF, p90.

That seems to make it pretty clear to me that since VTOL's are not specifically treated any differently on the Small Craft/DropShip Bay table on p89 (where Fighters and Small Craft are), that they would go in a vehicle bay but would have to be treated as above for loading/unloading from a grounded DropShip.


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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #15 on: 06 August 2012, 09:40:21 »
The "Carrying Units" section lumps them in with aerospace fighters in the sub-section "VTOLs, Small Craft and Fighters".
Yes, but the entire "Carrying Units" section relates to units mounting and dismounting grounded small craft and dropships (ibid. pp. 89).

TW pp. 91 states that these units cannot spend MPs to dismount a grounded small craft/dropship.

VTOLs cannot "hot launch" from bays (this was asked and answered in "ask the writers" a couple forum crashes ago). VTOLs can be carried in light vehicle bays or in cargo bays; in order to deploy them, the dropper must land, the VTOLs must be disembarked, made ready to fly and then used in combat.

StratOps pp. 22 makes it seem that VTOLs can make atmospheric drops, but a more careful reading makes it clear that it is not referring to VTOL vehicles but to VTOL mechanized infantry.

Same process applies to ASFs, though the fighters can be launched from the air.

Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #16 on: 06 August 2012, 09:49:01 »
Edit: Nevermind, I see it more clearly defined below that on page 90. I was looking at the table on page 89. I've still got my question open but edited it to include that page #. Until there's an official response I would say that entry in TW makes it as clear as we'll find that they do require a fighter/small craft bay.
No. I can't see how you reach that conclusion: the table on TW pp. 89 states clearly that vehicles use light, heavy or super-heavy vehicle bays and fighters and small craft use fighter or small craft bays.

VTOLs are vehicles. Period. They are constructed using vehicle construction rules and use MP (not thrust) for movement. As such, they are carried in light vehicle bays.

Me? I prefer cargo; I'm a big Ferret user and at 5 tons, it's much better to the cargo limitations of the carrier.

Jayof9s

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #17 on: 06 August 2012, 10:01:01 »
No. I can't see how you reach that conclusion: the table on TW pp. 89 states clearly that vehicles use light, heavy or super-heavy vehicle bays and fighters and small craft use fighter or small craft bays.

VTOLs are vehicles. Period. They are constructed using vehicle construction rules and use MP (not thrust) for movement. As such, they are carried in light vehicle bays.

Me? I prefer cargo; I'm a big Ferret user and at 5 tons, it's much better to the cargo limitations of the carrier.

I wouldn't really call it 'clear' either way. However, I have always used vehicle bays for VTOLs due to the same reasoning you just stated and I will probably continue to do so despite what the ruling actually ends up being. I simply meant I could see that supporting fighter bays. Considering VTOLs don't/can't make use of a lot of what goes into the fighter bays (catapults, etc) I can't imagine bothering to use a 150 ton bay for a VTOL. I'd load them in cargo sooner.

Archangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #18 on: 06 August 2012, 10:03:00 »
It then takes four subsequent turns for the DropShip to use cranes to load the units into the carrying aerospace unit; during the End Phase of the fourth turn after the turn in which the units were in an adjacent hex, they are loaded and strapped down. Doors are not occupied when loading units in this fashion.

  --  From Total Warfare, Corrected Third Printing PDF, p90.

That seems to make it pretty clear to me that since VTOL's are not specifically treated any differently on the Small Craft/DropShip Bay table on p89 (where Fighters and Small Craft are), that they would go in a vehicle bay but would have to be treated as above for loading/unloading from a grounded DropShip.

So you need to use cranes to load a VTOL into a vehicle bay that most other vehicles just drive into?  To me a crane is overkill for loading a VTOL into a vehicle bay where a LoaderMech or vehicle could simply tow it up the vehicle ramp.  In my opinion it strongly implies that they are stowed in aerospace or support craft bays.

Me and my friends have used both with the only difference being that VTOLs stored in aerospace/support craft bays are ready for immediate action after being unloaded while VTOLs stored in vehicle bays need time to get it ready for combat - most importantly attaching the rotors.

In the end whatever works for you and your fellow players is fine.   O0
« Last Edit: 06 August 2012, 10:07:44 by Archangel »
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Jayof9s

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #19 on: 06 August 2012, 10:14:07 »
I think Charlie Tango's interpretation is most likely the intention of the rules. It just (obviously) is being interpreted several different ways currently.

Hopefully we get an answer in the thread I started in the official question section.

As for me, I'll plan to continue to do what always has worked for me and my campaigns - stick them in vehicle bays.  ;)

Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #20 on: 06 August 2012, 10:24:46 »
So you need to use cranes to load a VTOL into a vehicle bay that most other vehicles just drive into?  To me a crane is overkill for loading a VTOL into a vehicle bay where a LoaderMech or vehicle could simply tow it up the vehicle ramp.  In my opinion it strongly implies that they are stowed in aerospace or support craft bays.

It's because the VTOL can't use MP inside the SC/dropper; all of its ground MP comes from the rotors, which makes stowing... difficult. This is an exception to the general rules regarding vehicles; all of which derive their MPs from enclosed sources.

All dropships capable of landing carry these cranes as an integral part of the bay tonnage; remember; these ASF/vehicle/'mech bays have integral repair facilities AND must hold the carried unit securely during multi-G maneuvers. Cargo bays in dedicated cargo craft also have cranes to move cargo into place. If such cranes are unavailable, winches can be used to drag it up the ramp or units such as the aforementioned loadermechs or light tractor units can be used.

Seriously; the table has a vehicles category; VTOLs are vehicles.

Given that VTOLs cannot launch while the SC/dropper is airborne, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to require the VTOL to use a full-on 150 ton launch-capable ASF bay.

A. Lurker

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #21 on: 06 August 2012, 10:25:52 »
So you need to use cranes to load a VTOL into a vehicle bay that most other vehicles just drive into?

That's what the rules say, so yes. If you need a fluff explanation, ask yourself how else the VTOL would get into that bay -- it can't just roll or hover in through the door like other vees might, after all. (I'm no expert on the subject, but helicopters never did strike me as being that good at taxiing, and in fact in the game VTOLs can't move on the ground at all. If they're landed, their only movement option is up into the air again (TW p. 54).)

Fireangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #22 on: 06 August 2012, 10:26:58 »
As for me, I'll plan to continue to do what always has worked for me and my campaigns - stick them in vehicle bays.  ;)

Keep telling you: cargo bays are better!  ^-^

Archangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #23 on: 06 August 2012, 10:48:12 »
If you need a fluff explanation, ask yourself how else the VTOL would get into that bay -- it can't just roll or hover in through the door like other vees might, after all. (I'm no expert on the subject, but helicopters never did strike me as being that good at taxiing, and in fact in the game VTOLs can't move on the ground at all. If they're landed, their only movement option is up into the air again (TW p. 54).)

To me a crane is overkill for loading a VTOL into a vehicle bay where a LoaderMech or vehicle could simply tow it up the vehicle ramp

The same way disabled fighters and helicopters are moved around an aircraft carrier deck.  The added bonus being not having to worry about the crane swinging around or getting stuck.  Also bear in mind that the Karnov UR Transport, the Cobra Transport VTOL and the Swiftran (medivac) are VTOLs as well and IMO are a lot wider than 100 ton tanks and would have trouble fitting into a vehicle bay.
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ErikModi

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #24 on: 06 August 2012, 11:08:43 »
Whether or not a VTOL can maneuver under its own power to load into a DropShip is irrelevant.  The fact is, it would be insanely dangerous for it to do so.  Long metal blades spinning at insane speeds in bays filled with vehicles, fuel lines, power lines, ammo racks, people. . . what could possibly go right in this situation, I ask you?

Loading them safely via a crane takes longer, but its worth to avoid the super-sized Wolverine-Gone-Wild consequences.

A. Lurker

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #25 on: 06 August 2012, 11:09:28 »
The same way disabled fighters and helicopters are moved around an aircraft carrier deck.  The added bonus being not having to worry about the crane swinging around or getting stuck.  Also bear in mind that the Karnov UR Transport, the Cobra Transport VTOL and the Swiftran (medivac) are VTOLs as well and IMO are a lot wider than 100 ton tanks and would have trouble fitting into a vehicle bay.

You're getting too stuck on the literal "crane". Mentally substitute appropriate towing gear if you must, the result is still the same as far as the rules are concerned -- VTOLs go into vee bays, and they need this-and-such many turns to load and unload.

As to the dimensions of individual vehicles, we don't really have a lot of hard information on that sort of thing (we get tonnages, but not sizes), so that really is only your opinion. The main factor that makes VTOLs "wide", I'd suspect, are their rotors anyway, which for transport purposes don't really count since they can be arrested in a 'lengthwise' position; and what's more, those same bays that you claim would have trouble accommodating them seem to handle WiGEs just fine...

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #26 on: 06 August 2012, 11:20:41 »
Light Vehicle bay is good for a vtol
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Archangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #27 on: 06 August 2012, 13:50:29 »
You're getting too stuck on the literal "crane". Mentally substitute appropriate towing gear if you must, the result is still the same as far as the rules are concerned -- VTOLs go into vee bays, and they need this-and-such many turns to load and unload.

As I have previously stated, my group puts VTOLs into both vee bays (after removed their rotors) and aerospace bays.   ::)

Quote
The main factor that makes VTOLs "wide", I'd suspect, are their rotors anyway, which for transport purposes don't really count since they can be arrested in a 'lengthwise' position; and what's more, those same bays that you claim would have trouble accommodating them seem to handle WiGEs just fine...

The Pinto Attack VTOL capabilities section implies that rotors are "dismantled" (aka removed); which, as far as I am aware, no updated rule has changed but I was thinking more along the lines of the fixed wings of VTOLs such as the Karnov, the Cobra and the Swiftran, which is also why I specifically mentioned them.
« Last Edit: 06 August 2012, 14:28:00 by Archangel »
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Jayof9s

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #28 on: 06 August 2012, 13:57:03 »
The Pinto Attack VTOL capabilities section implies that rotors are "dismantled" (aka removed); which, as far as I am aware, no updated rule has changed but I was thinking more along the lines of the fixed wings of VTOLs such as the Karnov, the Cobra and the Swiftran, which is also why I specifically mentioned them.

I know someone asked in the offical questions section about different rules for fixed wing VTOLs like the Karnov vs the traditional types like Warriors and the official response was "art if fluff, there are no different rules based on their appearance. You can treat them different with house rules as you see fit." i.e. a Karnov would be treated the exact same as a Warrior unless you're going to house rule it.

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #29 on: 06 August 2012, 14:12:44 »
The Pinto Attack VTOL capabilities section implies that rotors are "dismantled" (aka removed); which, as far as I am aware, no updated rule has changed but I was thinking more along the lines of the fixed wings of VTOLs such as the Karnov, the Cobra and the Swiftran, which is also why I specifically mentioned them.

Well, here's the thing: that's not a "rule". It's fluff. If you have your heart set on having it actually mean anything in your games, you'll have to houserule it in anyway because the official rules don't support your point of view. That's also why it's unlikely that any "rules update" will ever bother to "change" it.

Archangel

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #30 on: 06 August 2012, 14:42:13 »

As I have previously stated whatever works for him and his friends works just fine.
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #31 on: 06 August 2012, 15:20:38 »
Well to me it seems VTOLs are loaded in the same manner as fighters are, via cranes and or tow trucks, but the rules on page 90 say nothing on VTOLs being loaded into ASF bays.

As for the fluff well folding or removing rotors would be logical, but that would seem to be counted in the time it takes to load the unit into the bays via strat ops (~4 min per unit via strat ops).

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #32 on: 06 August 2012, 15:56:27 »
Real world vertical rotorcraft (i.e. "helicopters" or "BT VTOLs") can fold their rotor blades (sometimes other parts) for economy of space in shipboard hangars.

It even works with tilt-rotors.  8)

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #33 on: 06 August 2012, 19:20:53 »
There you have it, pictorial evidence of the primitive Karnov folding up for transport.
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MOrab46019

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #34 on: 06 August 2012, 23:39:33 »
If you are going to carry them as cargo. They would not be ready for use as soon as the drop sjip land. If you have it in a vehicle bay I would say it can be used sonner because it is a bay. Ammo,fuel,equipment should be in the bay. Unlike the cargo space with spare ammo,armor,foodstuff,and god knows whatelse is round you that has to be moved.

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #35 on: 07 August 2012, 01:22:49 »
The rules interestingly make no mention of how long it takes to unload a VTOL from it's bay

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #36 on: 07 August 2012, 02:25:05 »
The rules interestingly make no mention of how long it takes to unload a VTOL from it's bay

They do.  TW, p91: "Instead, it takes three turns for cranes to unload the units from the carrying aerospace unit; during the End Phase of the third turn after the turn in which the units began to dismount, they are dismounted into an adjacent hex (the hex must be within two levels of the underlying level of the hex occupied by the aerospace unit), with a facing of their choosing. In the turn following, such units may move and fi re normally."
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #37 on: 07 August 2012, 07:38:24 »
If you are going to carry them as cargo. They would not be ready for use as soon as the drop sjip land. If you have it in a vehicle bay I would say it can be used sonner because it is a bay. Ammo,fuel,equipment should be in the bay. Unlike the cargo space with spare ammo,armor,foodstuff,and god knows whatelse is round you that has to be moved.

Not really an issue: VTOLs simply cannot be (well, they can... but they shouldn't...) be unloaded and prepped in the heat of battle.

Don't forget that vehicles can be moved from general cargo to a bay, so if it is a conceptual issue, the VTOL can be moved from its cargo berth to a vehicle bay and crane-unloaded from there.

StoneRhino

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #38 on: 07 August 2012, 08:01:43 »
Lets take a different approach to this problem. An aerospace fighter bay is something that is going to allow the fighter to fly off at various points that the dropship is on the move. A fighter is an object that takes up space as well. A fighter that is not going to be used until the dropship has landed does not need to go into the ASF bay since it is not going to try and defend, so think of it being moved in a strictly cargo hauling dropship moving cargo from world to world and unloading the fighter.

Think of what kind of set up that ASF bay is going to require to launch the fighter while the dropship is on the move. Probably something in some way akin to what you might see in starwars star destroyer, or that of battlestar galactica.

Depending upon the vtol and how it operates it might very well be possible to use it within an ASF bay while in atmosphere. Something that is similar to the karnov, a vtol with wings that uses rotar fans instead of a traditional helicopter style craft would probably work as it would be essentially fired out of the dropship and it's wings would allow it the lift needed to give the fans enough time to kick in, assuming the atmosphere at the point of the launch is heavy enough, I would assume. I would suggest that you probably could use the ASF bay as such.

When it comes to simply storing a vtol in a dropship, I would believe that it would easily fit into a vehicle's slot without a problem. This is likely true for standard vtols such as the warrior, pinto, and so on that are helicopter designs where their rotor blades can be strapped down. The karnov on the other hand could pose a problem depending upon the wings length, even if they can be folded upwards.

I would assume that the vehicle bays are semi modular so that they can accomodate vehicles of different sizes, but even if not I cannot imagine that most vtol's would be dramatically taller then a 100 ton tank.

As for simply stuffing a vtol into the cargo hold of a dropship, that has to be a given since there are likely bigger objects that need to be moved. Dropships are massive, they clearly dwarf mechs, so why shouldn't something the size of a vtol not be able to be loaded?

The question you need to ask is what kind of a priority the vtols will be once your ship has hit the ground. You answered that by saying you want them up and running for recon. If that is the case just how fast do you want them scouting things out? If you want them out there immediately then you would want them in an area where you know that vehicles are being prepped for deployment once the ship has landed, not where the big and bulky cargo is going to be. How you would transport the vtols may even differ. You might want to find a cargo container for the vtol since you don't want it to try and stress it when moving it along, which probably involves the use of a crane and other heavy machinery. Also, how much of a problem would it be to sort through it and other cargo, get it fueled and possibly armed and in a position where the crew is able to hurry the heck up and get out there.

I would say that if you want to use them when you land, you need them in a vehicle bay so that all preparations can be done before hitting the planet and so that the crew can easily get to it. Now if you are transporting vtols from planet to planet just as cargo to be handed off to someone else to use, then crate that sucker up and stuff it in the cargohold.

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #39 on: 09 August 2012, 09:28:14 »
yeah a year or so back I did a Seeker conversion that took Vtols into account

I paid the tonnage for 2 ASF launch units and 6 Vtols as two bays (ie one launcher per 3 bays)
basically if you see the Union/Overlord the ASF  bays are up towards the top of the fuselage, I just fluffed it as the doors opening outwards drawbridge style to become a helipad

I worked up that they could land one unit every 4th turn
1 land
2 stop engine/rotors
3-4 fold rotors while being towed in
5 land another

reverse for launching, so it would take minimum 15 turns to land or launch all  3 from that bay

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #40 on: 09 August 2012, 10:05:56 »
If we would look at helicopters (also fall in the VTOL category), those can't be launched from generic Aerospace cubicles. Let's be honest, maybe an Elite pilot doesn't have a 100% failure rate to get his craft through the relatively tiny opening, but most helicopter pilots would cringe if they loop at the Aerospace hanger doors on a Union...

I would think that the VTOLs of the Harrier type would be able to launch from an Aerospace cubicle, just like fighters.

VTOLs in vehicle cubicles would need to be pushed/pulled/towed out before being deployed (folded wings/rotors/etc.).

If you want to combat deploy helicopters you would need to use a new type of vehicle cubicle at a new location (top of dropship)  that allows for enough room to takeoff and land. You don't do stupid stuff inside other vehicles, something like turning the turret of your tank inside the transport plane...

Also, weren't the Marines considering using the Aircraft Carriers, Aircraft Catapult for deployment? Sounds like a Marine thing to do ;-)

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #41 on: 09 August 2012, 18:45:48 »
So to summarize.

V-Tols are moved in V-Bays just like Tanks, but, take 3x as long to offload in combat ?


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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #42 on: 09 August 2012, 18:49:56 »
So to summarize.

V-Tols are moved in V-Bays just like Tanks, but, take 3x as long to offload in combat ?

exactly. Except it makes more sense to haul VTOL's as cargo and free up those vee bays for tanks and the like
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #43 on: 09 August 2012, 18:53:52 »
exactly. Except it makes more sense to haul VTOL's as cargo and free up those vee bays for tanks and the like

Yes but that isn't a rule or required, just useful when its a 5 ton Ferret.

I have no issues keeping my Karnovs loaded w/ BA/Infantry ready to deploy from Lt.Vee bays if needed.
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #44 on: 09 August 2012, 20:18:55 »
nope, And by the rules, your very much welcome and able to do that. I, by choice, wouldn't.  I see it as more effective to unload them from cargo if not in combat, and if my dropship is in combat, well the Karnovs can stay put.
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #45 on: 09 August 2012, 21:08:24 »
That's what the rules say, so yes. If you need a fluff explanation, ask yourself how else the VTOL would get into that bay -- it can't just roll or hover in through the door like other vees might, after all. (I'm no expert on the subject, but helicopters never did strike me as being that good at taxiing, and in fact in the game VTOLs can't move on the ground at all. If they're landed, their only movement option is up into the air again (TW p. 54).)
If we would look at helicopters (also fall in the VTOL category), those can't be launched from generic Aerospace cubicles. Let's be honest, maybe an Elite pilot doesn't have a 100% failure rate to get his craft through the relatively tiny opening, but most helicopter pilots would cringe if they loop at the Aerospace hanger doors on a Union...

I would think that the VTOLs of the Harrier type would be able to launch from an Aerospace cubicle, just like fighters.

I think you guys would be amazed to see some of the shit I saw in an army aviation unit.  Helicopters aren't allowed to simply lift straight up and go at the airfield, but have to rise to a hover maybe 4-5 feet up and taxi to the runway.  Now, flying out of a hangar would be trickier, and is not done as standard, but it's hardly impossible.  I've seen choppers parked in forest clearings so small the rotors were almost brushing foliage on multiple sides.  And this was a National Guard unit, not SOAR or something.  That said, I certainly wouldn't have VTOLs of any sort flying onto or off of DropShips as SOP, but it can be done (and safely) if there's a 'taxiway' wide enough for the rotors to spin with at least a couple feet of clearance on either side, and a 4-5 feet of clearance above and below a taxiing chopper.
« Last Edit: 09 August 2012, 21:17:18 by Arkansas Warrior »
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #46 on: 10 August 2012, 02:04:10 »
I suppose one could house rule that they can take off and land from grounded dropships but but keep the longer loading and unloading time as since they'd need to be so careful. I'd think that'd make them last on last off for safety.


One could also have VTOLs taxi by flying at half levels.
« Last Edit: 10 August 2012, 02:07:44 by FedComGirl »

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #47 on: 13 August 2012, 11:05:31 »
I'd think that'd make them last on last off for safety. 

I was thinking 1st on, last off,  you want them moving when EVERYTHING is out of the way.
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #48 on: 13 August 2012, 11:41:34 »
exactly. Except it makes more sense to haul VTOL's as cargo and free up those vee bays for tanks and the like


with the problem of stuff in cargo has to be stored as cargo, which would probably mean no fuel or munitions, no chance to test or repair in transit, its simply tied down in a cargo container, same as mechs carried as cargo, its simply cant roll right out, it takes time to prepare for deployment

bays are where you can prepare for use/repair/load up to hot deploy, cargo is cargo
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #49 on: 15 August 2012, 18:48:31 »
Something else to bear in mind regarding the ongoing safety discussion: not all VTOLs have large helicopter-like rotor blades that can potentially hit obstructions, just look at the Cobra from TRO3075, Yasha from TRO3085, Aeron from TRO3085Supp and Cascatelle/Lama-Deux from TRO:VA that propel themselves using either ducted fans or vectored thrust.

Designs like those would be a lot more forgiving of attempts to fly them straight out of a bay.

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #50 on: 15 August 2012, 18:55:44 »
Absolutely, I was wondering if someone would mention this . . . but the inevitable response would be that art is fluff and does not effect rules.  But I was wondering, is there a design quirk for something like this?  I had thought about it back under BMR rules as something making the rotors harder to hit/damage, but I am not sure such a quirk balances with the TW VTOL benefits.
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #51 on: 15 August 2012, 19:41:05 »
Absolutely, I was wondering if someone would mention this . . . but the inevitable response would be that art is fluff and does not effect rules.  But I was wondering, is there a design quirk for something like this?  I had thought about it back under BMR rules as something making the rotors harder to hit/damage, but I am not sure such a quirk balances with the TW VTOL benefits.

What I highlighted.

Also remember that not even fighters use their thrust inside the dropship (arguably not even at the catapult; the energy generated by a fighter's thrust would be... bad... for the carrier.


That being said, one might envision a positive design quirk that might allow for vectored thrust VTOLs that can be hot-dropped from vehicle bays.

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #52 on: 15 August 2012, 22:29:06 »
stupid thought time. the Kanga proves you can mount jump jets on vees. if you where to mount jump jets on a VTOL could you hot drop it?
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #53 on: 16 August 2012, 01:03:52 »
No VTOLs, sadly.  However, hover, wheeled, and tracked can all have them as can WiGEs.  This leads to the utterly intentional hilarity of ideas like jump-capable Gurteltiers...

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #54 on: 16 August 2012, 08:00:23 »
stupid thought time. the Kanga proves you can mount jump jets on vees. if you where to mount jump jets on a VTOL could you hot drop it?

No. and unfortunately you can't even mount them on VTOLs.

No VTOLs, sadly.  However, hover, wheeled, and tracked can all have them as can WiGEs.

WiGEs can be air-dropped without jump jets!  O0

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #55 on: 16 August 2012, 11:24:01 »
so no JJs, how about pallet dropping with a mech rocket pack

pallet rolls out door, drops a couple turns, retro rockets fire,
pallet lands, helo engine starts and blades deploy
helo lifts

basically like a mech drop but of course needs to be low level

hmm or make a cargo carrying vehicle, basically a truck with JJs,
load the helo on it, drive it out the door,, it uses JJs on the way down to land, and helo deploys from there, truck then goes to dropship landing site to carry other cargo
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #56 on: 16 August 2012, 11:48:26 »
so no JJs, how about pallet dropping with a mech rocket pack

pallet rolls out door, drops a couple turns, retro rockets fire,
pallet lands, helo engine starts and blades deploy
helo lifts

basically like a mech drop but of course needs to be low level

hmm or make a cargo carrying vehicle, basically a truck with JJs,
load the helo on it, drive it out the door,, it uses JJs on the way down to land, and helo deploys from there, truck then goes to dropship landing site to carry other cargo

pallet rolls out door
drops a couple turns
retro rockets fire
pallet lands
crew disembarks (assuming it did not jump separately)
crew releases the straps/clamps holding the VTOL do the pallet
all straps/clamps are cleared of the immediate area of the VTOL
rotors are deployed to flight mode (tail too, if necessary)
quick walkaround to make sure the VTOL was not damaged on landing
begin startup procedure
remove all pins securing weapons/missiles for the drop/ready weapons for firing (nobody in their right mind will drop a loaded cannon with a chambered round)
start engines

helo lifts


Better. ::)

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #57 on: 16 August 2012, 12:36:10 »
you are assuming realism in a game of orbital dropping giant robots??

2 crew from the flying truck can do the disconnect and walkaround, pilots can do a system check without leaving seat
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #58 on: 16 August 2012, 16:32:19 »
you are assuming realism in a game of orbital dropping giant robots??

Yes. To a point: I don't want a lightsaber to interfere with the anti-phaser force field as I use the transporter to generate a 16 HD expanded fireball using kryptonite as an alternative casting component.  ::)

I know it's a game of stompy robots, but it works within a well-defined framework that tries to keep a modicum of realism, particularly in matters of practical physics through game rules; simply put; getting a VTOL from a dropship to combat takes time.


Quote
2 crew from the flying truck can do the disconnect and walkaround, pilots can do a system check without leaving seat

Crew from the flying truck must still unload the VTOL from the flatbed using standard rules. Use the rules for startup under fire; still takes time.

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #59 on: 16 August 2012, 17:22:20 »
I was thinking a flatbed type with clamps holding the chopper, released by the truck driver/pilot, with a low cab so the helo can start right up
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #60 on: 16 August 2012, 17:34:21 »
I was thinking a flatbed type with clamps holding the chopper, released by the truck driver/pilot, with a low cab so the helo can start right up

Tell you what: look in your yellow pages for shipping companies that move heavy equipment; call them up and see if you can go on a ride-along for a large piece of machinery. See how the thing has to be secured and then unsecured at the destination: qwik-clamps ain't gonna cut it.

Of course, if you want to go high fantasy, you can Charlie's Angels/Airwolf it and drop it with the rotors off and turn them on as it falls.... ::)

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #61 on: 16 August 2012, 18:17:14 »
Of course, if you want to go high fantasy, you can Charlie's Angels/Airwolf it and drop it with the rotors off and turn them on as it falls.... ::)
There was a German WW2 fighter that relied on something like that, not as silly as it sounds

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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #62 on: 16 August 2012, 19:04:11 »
besides, with Airwolf, you just need to have the jet's going, it would totally work :D
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Re: transporting VTOLs aboard dropships
« Reply #63 on: 17 August 2012, 08:00:24 »
There was a German WW2 fighter that relied on something like that, not as silly as it sounds

The prop of a fighter is a different beast than the prop of a helo; in single-rotor designs, the torque effectively slows the rotation of the rotor (because the body in freefall is torquing in the opposite direction; remember that the tail rotor/equivalent is not turning either). Further, the lifting/aerodynamic surfaces of the fighter can be used to point the nose down in order to gain speed; helos can't do that; worse; if you actually manage to start the rotors, there is no guarantee that the plane of the rotor will be at a useful angle with the ground; if the hello flips over or noses down, it will not fly even if the rotors get up to speed.

Autogyro rotation? works only once the rotors are up to speed; if attempted with the rotors at a dead stop, they don't gain enough speed to be useful.

besides, with Airwolf, you just need to have the jet's going, it would totally work :D

I'd rather use Charlie's Angels' Luck of the JediTM feat; jets or no, Airwolf has no useful control flat-flight surfaces; if it is pointed down, it might break the sound barrier in a terminal case of deconstructive lithobreaking.  ::)

 

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