Author Topic: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?  (Read 4218 times)

Korzon77

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How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« on: 07 January 2019, 05:48:05 »
IE, you have an AU setting and someone puts in monitors, or Inner Sphere protomechs, something that isn't, currently allowed by the rules.

How many people consider that a deal breaker?

Elmoth

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #1 on: 07 January 2019, 05:52:58 »
Not much unless it destroys the fun of the game. HR are OK if the table agrees on them and teir testing at that said table prove them to be worthwile for the group pf players.

We change rules AND background all the time.
« Last Edit: 07 January 2019, 07:05:29 by Elmoth »

AlphaMirage

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #2 on: 07 January 2019, 06:58:44 »
I use house rules all the time.  As long as you are upfront with what has been changed and it is agreed upon go for it.

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #3 on: 07 January 2019, 07:25:57 »
I've never found the game that isn't improved by a few house rules! Discuss your ideas with your players before-hand explain why you think they are warranted, & suggest playing a single game with them & offer to drop them if the game isn't to their liking! Most people are willing to try anything once! If they don't disrupt the game, most players will embrace house rules. Give it a shot!

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #4 on: 07 January 2019, 07:46:50 »
I’ve never used a ton of house rules but I dip liberally into tacops and alpha strike to the point where I’ve forgotten where the line is between standard and optional


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Maingunnery

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #5 on: 07 January 2019, 08:16:16 »
I use house rules all the time.  As long as you are upfront with what has been changed and it is agreed upon go for it.
I second this.

Also I place rules/technology on the table that I don't mind fighting against. 
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grimlock1

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #6 on: 07 January 2019, 09:23:34 »
IE, you have an AU setting and someone puts in monitors, or Inner Sphere protomechs, something that isn't, currently allowed by the rules.

How many people consider that a deal breaker?

I'm with the rest of the comments.  Discuss it up front, and be prepared to let it go if the table isn't having fun. 

Also, IS proto rules were introduced in IO. There is mention of it on page 186, and there's more somewhere else.  Wasn't there some art of this in one of the Jihad Books?
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #7 on: 07 January 2019, 09:34:03 »
To me, the key is consistency. Want to add house rules? Cool! Make sure veryone knows about them (I've found that if you use more than a couple, having a small hand-out sheet printed up for new players detailing them is handy- also good in case there's a disagreement about a rule interpretation later on).

The thing to remember is to keep using that rule change consistently. We had a rule that allowed a Mech to be charged even if it's in Lv.1 water- you can't run into water, of course, so our guy should have been safe from charging, but it seemed like it would both make sense and look really cool, so we allowed it. It meant later though that we had to be consistent and allow a run into a water hex when it wasn't as convenient for my team- the rules of the game may be changed if needed, but they don't change on a turn-by-turn basis. If you allow it once, allow it every time, even when it hurts your cause.
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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #8 on: 07 January 2019, 09:39:46 »
Depending on how big of break from the rules were talking about.  There traditionalist who put the "Lawyer" in Rules Lawyer when it comes to the tactical game/table top game.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #9 on: 07 January 2019, 11:09:51 »
Depending on how big of break from the rules were talking about.  There traditionalist who put the "Lawyer" in Rules Lawyer when it comes to the tactical game/table top game.

Well, yeah. Thus the thing about having everyone agree in advance on house rules- if people don't like them, you don't use them. It's also why I suggest the writeup of them- not only for new players to learn it, but so there's something to fall back on as a 'here's what we agreed on' document for rules lawyers who may get a bit... creative... with the way a rule is interpreted.
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Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #10 on: 07 January 2019, 11:15:25 »
For me it's all about whether the house rules are agreed upon from the start.

Clan tech isn't allowed? Fine. Unless you don't inform the participants of that restriction.

Hell, I think the ideal way to play CBT/Boardgame BattleTech is with pregenerated lists.  Of course if I were to host a game where you can't bring your own lists, I really need to make sure the participants aren't surprised by my ban on player-generated forces.

StoneRhino

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #11 on: 10 January 2019, 02:50:55 »
House rules that are going to affect the game are a deal breaker. Typically, those that want to use house rules are going to do so for their benefit.

People wanting to use a deck of cards for initiative and everyone pulls a card for each unit is one that someone has tried pushing. If someone has a problem with grasping how initiative works as is, then adding in random card pulls that force a player to move a specific unit is going to bite them in the butt.

People that want to play "mech only" games are seeking to remove elements that they have a problem dealing with.

Some want the games to be on a single map so that their assault mechs can avoid being shot up at range as they crawl forward.

"I hate the clans, so they don't exist!" or "3025 only!" limits the game to what they are comfortable with. Its one thing to have 3025 games here and there, but removing the vast majority of BT's existence is anything but helpful since even the clan invasion was a long time ago in RL time.

Ultra ER Rac20s and other nonsense is ...well..nonsense.

I have had to help a few friends relearn the game because they "learned" the game from a friend of theirs that added truckloads of house rules to the point that they didn't know what was what. Battletech rules surgery was needed. The house rules always seemed to limit things for that one player's enjoyment.

Me, I'd rather people have a fair game with rules that have been play tested. That is not to say that I agree with all of the rules as they are, but they have been play tested and anyone reading this can go to TW and any of the other core books and find the rules of the game before we meet to play. I can give you a page number of an optional rule or show you in the book/pdf and explain it and you can at least know that I didn't make it up to suit my play style.

Optional rules that have been published help add to the game in a manner that has been playtested. Most of what we have seen has existed since the 1990s. However, even a list of optional rules can be used to manipulate the game to benefit a particular play style over another.

Even a house rule that seems as "fair" as "we always have default pilots that are 2/3s" might sound fine, but the benefit for certain units will be much more significant then others. Lights are basically ruled out of the game as those free pilot upgrades are going to seriously boost the ability of assaults to land GR and Ac20 rounds. When I went over that with a visiting player once and it really sunk in that those free pilot upgrades were manipulating the game the look on his face was as though he had seen color for the first time in his life.

Stuff such as movement dice prior to them being published, or even a timer to help reduce excessive time spent per move isn't a bad thing. I have known some that have argued for and against themselves by arguing for and against a timer. "The game takes to long!" but takes 5 solid minutes to move a platoon of infantry, or 10 minutes to talk with their team mate about a single move that they decide not to commit to at the last second and go with what they originally wanted to do is a good start at reducing the time spent per turn. I have played when I only slept 3 broken hours, had to do a lot of stuff before, went drinking the night before, and still take 30 seconds to move, so a timer is not going to affect me. It will affect those that are newer and think out their move as they are about to make them. I'm a nice guy, I'll try to occupy myself as you take a few minutes to consider a move. I'll even slow my moves down as not to spook them as the faster I move units the slower they respond. A movement timer could help people commit to a move and learn through experience instead of holding a conference each move, but I wouldn't want it to be "pick a unit, you have 1 minute to move or its declared as standing still".

Helpful stuff that does not modify the rules is nice, but I wouldn't want to commit to things that are going to punish new or unsure players. This is especially true if they are playing against someone that is going to benefit not only from their lack of experience but them being penalized for it.  I have more fun seeing less experienced players learn then I do from beating them to a pulp.

Col Toda

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #12 on: 10 January 2019, 07:46:14 »
Monitors or any Aerospace Asset has a potential of preventing the landing if ground forces and this is supposed to be a mech combat game . As for Protomechs the Clans put pilots who fail their trial of position as a mech warrior and is supposed to engage other attrition units such as combat vehicles , conventional infantry and battle armor . One of there jobs is to prevent mech forces to be over run by conventional combat vehicles. The Inner Sphere can lose more than 10 units vs 1 Clan unit and still win if the Inner Sphere if the do attrition strategies . In short the inner sphere does not need them . What possible reason for the Inner sphete has to put 5 guys in proto mechs to be killed with any air burst or semi guided mech mortor . Or Semi giuded LRM or even a homing arrow IV shot . For that matter just aboutvant Artillary .  Those same 5 guys could be in a 90 ton assailt tank an just last longer . Or better yet crew 2 Combat Vehicles . With less resources and training involved .
« Last Edit: 10 January 2019, 08:44:55 by Col Toda »

Elmoth

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #13 on: 10 January 2019, 09:27:49 »
House rules that are going to affect the game are a deal breaker. Typically, those that want to use house rules are going to do so for their benefit.

(SNIP)

"I hate the clans, so they don't exist!" or "3025 only!" limits the game to what they are comfortable with. Its one thing to have 3025 games here and there, but removing the vast majority of BT's existence is anything but helpful since even the clan invasion was a long time ago in RL time.

(SNIP)

Helpful stuff that does not modify the rules is nice, but I wouldn't want to commit to things that are going to punish new or unsure players. This is especially true if they are playing against someone that is going to benefit not only from their lack of experience but them being penalized for it.  I have more fun seeing less experienced players learn then I do from beating them to a pulp.

Agree with the last paragraph. the rest only if I am playing BT as a competitive game. And I am not. Me and my players consider the clans to be a mockery. Same for the Jihad. yeah, we consider 90% of the material to be BS.

Does that make us bad for wanting to change it? I would stay quite far from saying so. We play our BT, for our enjoyment. We do not give crap about what the guy in the next block is doing with his own BT: All hail to him for liking big stompy robots, interstellar knights, and/or nuke happy people on a tantrum!

We use house rules (planetlifters being CV in Alpha Stike, or adding 5 damage to all the AC for example). It increases our group's enjoyment of the universe. So yes, we add HR to benefit our enjoyment. Does it break the game? We do not think so. Specially since it does not break the universe. In our collectiv eopinion it is better than the official game, and reflects better the universe, but YMMV and we will never try to force our opinion on you, sicne we will never play against you anyway :) Playtested and good are 2 different things for us. We are way past the point where we tried to rules lawyer our games to decrease our collective enjoyment for a punny victory.

« Last Edit: 10 January 2019, 09:47:07 by Elmoth »

StoneRhino

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #14 on: 10 January 2019, 09:45:21 »
Agree with the last paragraph. the rest only if I am playing BT as a competitive game. And I am not. Me and my players consider the clans to be a mockery. Same for the Jihad. yeah, we consider 90% of the material to be BS.

Does that make us bad for wanting to change it? I would stay quite far from saying so. We play our BT. We do not give crap about ewhat the guy in the next block is doing with his own BT. We yuse house rules (pñlanetlifters being CV in Alpha Stike, or adding 5 damage to all the AC. It increase sour group's enjoyment of the universe. So yes, we add HR to benefit our enjoyment. Does oit break the game? We do not think so. Playtested and gfood are 2 different things for us. Wre are way past the point where we tried to rules lawyer our games to decrease our collective enjoyment for a punny victory.

Adding rules seems as though that is actually rules lawyering more then using the actual rules.  ;D

Elmoth

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #15 on: 10 January 2019, 09:48:03 »
Adding rules seems as though that is actually rules lawyering more then using the actual rules.  ;D
Fair point. But it would be rules-legiaslation, right?  :D

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #16 on: 10 January 2019, 09:58:26 »
Fair point. But it would be rules-legiaslation, right?  :D

Heh, since we're delving into semantics I'd agree that inventing new rules is pretty much the antithesis of "Rules Lawyering".

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #17 on: 10 January 2019, 10:58:05 »
If house rules are used everyone should be made aware of what they are. The same goes for alternate universes. Everyone should be made aware of what is and isn't in it. Once those things are established they shouldn't change. That said house rules shouldn't be used with new players. GMs should wait until the new players are more familiar with the rules before using house rules.



House rules that are going to affect the game are a deal breaker. Typically, those that want to use house rules are going to do so for their benefit.
 
(snip)

Helpful stuff that does not modify the rules is nice, but I wouldn't want to commit to things that are going to punish new or unsure players. This is especially true if they are playing against someone that is going to benefit not only from their lack of experience but them being penalized for it.  I have more fun seeing less experienced players learn then I do from beating them to a pulp.


I agree with some of this. Ultra ER Rac20s are nonsense. I also agree that new players shouldn't be beat up on or confused by house rules. I disagree that players shouldn't use house rules as long as everyone agrees. Yes there lots of offical rules but there are things the rules don't cover everything. House rules help fill in blanks until an official answer can be given. Also Official Rules also come and go. Should players be punished for using items no longer valid under the current rules? And why should the players be forced to play in eras or use equipment they don't want to? Battletech should be fun. If players only have fun in a certain eras or even with a certain rule set, why make things unfun for them?

NeonKnight

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #18 on: 10 January 2019, 11:41:32 »
I think most of our House rules in my home games are simply inclusions of optional rules.

i.e. a die roll on 2d6 of 2 is a floating crit instead of a through center crit. I know one player always complains that it seems ridiculous to him that a 1-point damage attack could theoretically blow an arm or leg off with lucky rolls, but I think a centre torso shot of 3 crits hitting all engine or 2 gyro's with 1 point of damage is equally ridiculous so there's that ;)

The other house rule we implemented is hit locations vs weapon arcs for vehicles. We've made it to be similar to mechs. Attacks from the front front three hex sides, then left/right, then rear, as opposed to the current diagram on page 192.
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Moonsword

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #19 on: 10 January 2019, 12:06:10 »
Folks, as this is turning into a discussion of individual house rules, I am moving the thread to the appropriate board.  Discussion of unofficial rules or designs doesn't belong in General Discussion.

monbvol

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #20 on: 10 January 2019, 13:49:49 »
I have a fairly extensive list of house rules these days.  Most of them deal with AToW and where it really gets frankly a bit weird.  The rest are AU specific.

But deal breakers for me?  Monitors and Protomechs of any type.  Never liked Protomechs and Monitors are either cheese/min-maxed monstrosities or trying to solve a problem that already has a solution.

Daryk

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Re: How big a deal-breaker are house rules?
« Reply #21 on: 10 January 2019, 18:02:04 »
Era restrictions aren't really house rules at all.  If the game takes place in the Inner Sphere in 3025, the lack of clan equipment is simply reality.

 

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