Author Topic: What Defines Battletech for you?  (Read 6173 times)

Sellsword

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What Defines Battletech for you?
« on: 07 April 2018, 12:14:11 »
The Battletech successor thread got me thinking about what actually defines the battletech game and universe.  If there was an update to the system or time jump, a battletech 2.0, what would the game have to include in order for it to be battletech for you?  What would cross the line?

Universe wise as long as Battletech had some Successor States (I don't need all of them), no aliens, and a version of the clans (I'd prefer them to survive as a subset of the State, like a warrior house but you can't have everything) then it would be a Battletech Universe to me.

Rules wise, as long as I have the below 3 items I think I could live with all other rules changes:

1.  Mech combat degradation.  I want to be able to blow off an arm, hit a gyro, and keep going with penalties.
2.  Mech construction rules.
3.  Mech heat scale.  Riding the heat curve adds an additional tactical element to the game

The Universe doesn't have to look the same as it does now and the Mech construction, degradation, & heat scale rules don't have to be the same either, but I would sorely miss the above elements if there was ever a Battletech update.

Red Pins

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #1 on: 07 April 2018, 12:27:52 »
2.  Mech construction rules.

If you can't make your own, it's not battletech.  I can deal with anything else, but there has to be a way for me to create my own stuff.
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Cache

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #2 on: 07 April 2018, 12:29:08 »
Every time Jordan Weismann starts a new BattleTech franchise (BattleTech, MechWarrior: Dark Ages, BattleTech (Video Game) it's pretty much the same thing:

Humans
Handful of warring factions (Kingdoms)
'MechWarriors (Knights)
BattleMechs (rare and king of the battlefield)
Tech Degradation
Small scale operations (company level... ish)

I can't fault this. While the multi-regimental battles can be interesting to read, the company-level conflicts are where it is at for me. I don't want to run a regiment, I want a (potentially) ragged band of warriors in a single dropship taking on missions vs the like. I don't really want to create fully custom units, but the ability to modify with salvage is important.

Tai Dai Cultist

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #3 on: 07 April 2018, 12:29:57 »
For me the rules mechanics are all take-em-or-leave-em.  There's been 4 iterations of the RPG, a decades long evolution of the boardgame, 3 iterations of aero-combat rules (at least), 2 iterations of mass combat rules (at least), two iterations of a strategic game for sphere-wide warfare, and I'm not even sure how many versions of handling account-tech for campaign play there's been.  And that's all before Alpha Strike.


I truly couldn't care less about the mechanics.  If CGL dropped all support for everything besides Alpha Strike I'd be fine with it.  (more than fine, really).

I'm invested in BattleTech for the ongoing story of the rivalries between the ancient Great Houses.  Everything else is just a lens through which to view the vendettas between Kurita-Davion, Marik-Steiner, Liao-Sanity, and etc :)



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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #4 on: 07 April 2018, 12:42:26 »
Gameplay is easy: Sufficiently detailed 'Mechs, them being distinct; and them being affected differently in combat. In other words, OP's points 1 and 3.
I don't care for construction rules in themselves, i don't play with custom units despite designing them often. That said, given that combat rules demand certain level of standardization, construction rules work easily with that, despite some logical issues (such as all 'Mechs having exactly same space in all hit locations).

As for the universe... BattleTech offers a lot of possibilities. There is little i don't find acceptable, though i will note that while i don't necessarily find even acceptable things of any interest.
Some core rules are:
-No aliens. Non-human aliens tend to be unconvincing and in case of well done aliens, the thing becomes about them more so than otherwise. As it is, the Clans offer an excellent alternative by having humans with frankly alien society that works (often fiction refuses to even contemplate human societies that aren't fundamentally somehow different).
-Hard science fiction aesthetic, with strong emphasis on aesthetic. BattleTech is not hard science fiction, but it pays lip service to it. There is no artificial gravity, no energy shields, all energy weapons are based more or less on real principles (no "phasers" or "blasters"), etc. BT's few overt violations of hard science fiction are its magical fusion thrusters (really, they're pretty excessive) and its FTL technology, both of which can be excused as being sine qua non of space opera.
-Keep things on the ground. While BT is space opera, it is unusual in the sense that its focus is on planets much more so than space. Space is secondary, it may make for interesting battlefield but that's all. Indeed, as it is, i feel existing WarShips are almost a violation of this, and i wouldn't care if they were excised from canon completely.

Not quite a core rule but strong preference:
-Focus on interstellar empires, not megacorporations or minor factions. Megacorps in BT work as a minor part of the setting but i don't care to see them in roles like they do have in many modern scifi works or how they typically are in (post-)cyberpunk. They are part of the system, not the system. As for minor factions, BT is a space opera, so focus on big players. Major Periphery realms are about the smallest i think is OK, other things can exist in fiction but i really don't give a shit about them.

Cache makes a good observation with how Jordan Weismann starts BT. Those are indeed good principles, at in the event of a time jump or whatever, i think those aspects should be reinforced or focused on to an extent.
I would modify "tech degradation" though, i feel BT has place for highly advanced tech nowadays, like cyborgs or advanced weapons. But "tech degradation" can be portrayed differently, eg BT could have high tech warfare but note how it affects the world, what it requires, what its cost is.
I'll note that MechWarrior Dark Age began with "tech degradation" but it was rather different from how it was when BT began. Instead of tech being rare, reduced armies meant that improvised weapons were used more, and theme was a reliance on communications and how them breaking down affected things. As such, a new BT era or whatever could play the "tech degradation" angle differently rather than focusing on LosTech.

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #5 on: 08 April 2018, 10:22:01 »
Rules for me that are needed:

1. Hit locations of some sort need to be in the game
2. Heat Scale of some sort needs to be in the game
3. Critical hits of some type needs to be in the game

Without those it would be hard to really be Battletech to me.

In the case of the universe I would mostly say more then 2 factions. I don't think games work well with just 2 sides.

guardiandashi

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #6 on: 08 April 2018, 10:42:08 »
for me I despise the battlespace /at2 range bands I like there being a reason to take a PPC over a large pulse laser other than 1 point of damage and less accuracy

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #7 on: 08 April 2018, 12:22:55 »
In terms of the nature of the universe:
   1. No sentient Aliens
   2. Relatable factions (mostly)

In terms of  story:
   1. Wolves on the Border
   2. The Blood of Kerensky Trilogy
   3. The Warrior Trilogy

In terms of 'Mechs:
   1. TRO:3025 (uncut)
   2. TRO:3050 (uncut)

In terms of mechanics:
   1. Detailed hit locations & criticals
   2. Heat balancing
   3. Construction rules
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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #8 on: 08 April 2018, 13:28:06 »
I'm seeing a lot of the same points here that I agree with, but there's one that needs emphasizing:

12-on-12 combat is the ideal game size.

A game's timespan should be between 2 and 3 hours at most for a single game. Battletech fails because it functions smoothly as 4 on 4; any more than that and the time balloons exponentially. Company v. Company is the size that should be aimed for because it FEELS big and it actually fits in with what the universe describes as adequate battle sizes. Witness the hoops that the old scenario books use to justify the tiny game sizes as actually being important! Most of them were "on the fringes of the main battle" or "stragglers who survived" or "recon elements probing". 

Construction rules.

Most wargames these days are vague about what process is used to create their units, and all too often it seems like "We just guess." Battletech is not, and that is one of its strengths.

Giant stompy robots with a pilot.

A Battlemech is a combination of a knight's steed and armor, and that is how it should be. Alpha Strike fails hard at this.

Degradation of stats during combat.

As a unit takes damage, its ability to deal damage decreases. Mechwarrior: DA got this perfectly right.

Heat.

The core conceit of the heat scale is "Raising damage output temporarily as a trade against a unit's performance in later turns." Alpha Strike nails this perfectly.

Humans against humans; we are alone in the universe and our own worst enemy.

This is a feeling that's key to the setting. Every other far-flung intergalactic setting has aliens against humans, and rarely are they done WELL - they end up as pointed eared versions of humans with little real difference.

Alsadius

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #9 on: 08 April 2018, 13:33:49 »
A fairly hard sci-fi universe where giant stompy robots with human pilots are major battlefield weapons. It should be on the space opera side, not the anime side, but with most of the actual focus being on land instead of space. Mechanically, I want it to be a pretty crunchy wargame, and fairly realistic when possible, but the details I'm somewhat flexible on. I wouldn't mind if something Alpha Strike-like was the default way to play, for example.

I agree with most of what others here have said - pilots are important, I want crits/locations/heat if individual units are being modelled(and the corollary of degradation in place of simple binary working/destroyed), humans only, custom unit building, and so on. But the above is my big ones.

I am Belch II

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #10 on: 08 April 2018, 14:44:56 »
To me its the future of Humanity (no aliens) go off into space, dont like Terra anymore and make their own nations of planets. In finding new ways of warfare come up with Battlemech..and that is Battletech to me.

The fact that this game is around for 30+ years and the game has continued on for the years and gets better and better. Thru many different companies being in charge, and so many different factors that the game is still around. The thousands of pewter minatrues, to the hundreds of books, to the computer programs, to the conventions, to other things that has kept this game still around.
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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #11 on: 08 April 2018, 15:10:36 »
-Keep things on the ground. While BT is space opera, it is unusual in the sense that its focus is on planets much more so than space. Space is secondary, it may make for interesting battlefield but that's all. Indeed, as it is, i feel existing WarShips are almost a violation of this, and i wouldn't care if they were excised from canon completely.

Hmm.  What do people think of a permanent split between the two?  Something like AS in space, avoiding most of the actual game mechanics, rolling, etc., to create a streamlined game understandable by average people.  I've always been interested in such a game, but never had an opponent willing to play and a printed ruleset that wasn't a cat's cradle of missing rules, etc.
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Daryk

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #12 on: 08 April 2018, 15:25:03 »
Well, if you live anywhere close to DC, I'd be willing to give it a shot...

Red Pins

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #13 on: 08 April 2018, 15:28:40 »
Heh.  Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.  (Canada)  No.   ;D
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Empyrus

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #14 on: 08 April 2018, 16:03:33 »
Hmm.  What do people think of a permanent split between the two?  Something like AS in space, avoiding most of the actual game mechanics, rolling, etc., to create a streamlined game understandable by average people.  I've always been interested in such a game, but never had an opponent willing to play and a printed ruleset that wasn't a cat's cradle of missing rules, etc.

Fluff-wise, i just find WarShips problematic since they turn things into a MAD doctrine of sorts... and it doesn't help that fluff itself describes ASFs as being the best counter to them, thus making the whole concept of WarShips rather dubious in the first place.

Splitting AeroTech back into its own wouldn't be terribly wise, based on what i've read. Apparently it wasn't a big seller, so there is no really justification in keeping in print. Folding it into Total Warfare rules was a way to keep it alive.
I have no opinion on the AeroTech rules, not interested in it regardless of how it is done but i'm not opposing it either. I'm just worried about effects of the WarShips in-universe.

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #15 on: 08 April 2018, 16:22:39 »
Fluff-wise, i just find WarShips problematic since they turn things into a MAD doctrine of sorts... and it doesn't help that fluff itself describes ASFs as being the best counter to them, thus making the whole concept of WarShips rather dubious in the first place.

Splitting AeroTech back into its own wouldn't be terribly wise, based on what i've read. Apparently it wasn't a big seller, so there is no really justification in keeping in print. Folding it into Total Warfare rules was a way to keep it alive.
I have no opinion on the AeroTech rules, not interested in it regardless of how it is done but i'm not opposing it either. I'm just worried about effects of the WarShips in-universe.
Well, if you don't retcon the universe back before the succession wars, which I think would be a horrible idea if anyone did, you'd see that the use of warships would probably always be a bit of a taboo unless you back an opponent into a position where scorched earth is seen as a viable tactic. But I would be fine having them move more into the role of an armed jumpship then a dedicated warship let that side of the game be its own thing.

Though to be honest at this point the currently available ruleset is effectively feature complete. It could be FAQ'd a bit but for all intents and purpose there isn't anything really "missing" so to say. So even if something new was done what is out there is still good, and in many cases only had a short print run so if you missed it second hand is the only way to go as it is.

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #16 on: 08 April 2018, 16:28:32 »
Fluff-wise, i just find WarShips problematic since they turn things into a MAD doctrine of sorts... and it doesn't help that fluff itself describes ASFs as being the best counter to them, thus making the whole concept of WarShips rather dubious in the first place.

Splitting AeroTech back into its own wouldn't be terribly wise, based on what i've read. Apparently it wasn't a big seller, so there is no really justification in keeping in print. Folding it into Total Warfare rules was a way to keep it alive.
I have no opinion on the AeroTech rules, not interested in it regardless of how it is done but i'm not opposing it either. I'm just worried about effects of the WarShips in-universe.

They can stay the way they are in fluff - rare, handicapped by the Aries Conventions, etc. - but it is a game of 'Space Empires' after all.  In a reboot, maybe they could remove the whole concept to limit their abilities - something like the P-JumpShips up to a given mass limit (WAY smaller than 2.5 mt) - but remove the ability to carry DS to allow they those hull-areas for weapon mounts.  Then JS would be the only opportunity for transport.

At least it would focus the game on the ground combat, outside AS fighters.  I suppose they could still use an Alpha Strike-style system.
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Sartris

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #17 on: 08 April 2018, 16:34:41 »
0. Mechs. Big stompy robots should always be centered inextricably at the core of the game
1. Small unit-action combat - players act out armed conflict between a few to a few dozen combatants.
2. Combat feels consequential for each unit, and those units are not simply carbon copy hordes. Sacrificing units as fodder should not be a choice made lightly.
3. the universe - built upon the carcass of the star league (and eventually perhaps the carcasses of its member states), humans are alone, space opera-y
4. A varied universe with lots of choices to which adherence is largely optional
5. moving, expanding timeline that both adds and backfills


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Daryk

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #18 on: 08 April 2018, 17:00:10 »
Heh.  Saskatoon, Saskatchewan.  (Canada)  No.   ;D
I was in Saskatchewan once... I think was around 5 years old.  But hey, at least there isn't an ocean between us!  :)

Scotty

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #19 on: 08 April 2018, 17:20:20 »
Warships could be totally fine if they were:

1) Not an asymmetrical relationship with ground units.  As is they're untouchable outside of capital missiles or capital naval guns.  If they could be threatened by 'Mech-borne weapons they would be too much to risk on orbital bombardment.  Since that's ultimately what makes them paradigm-destroying, this is something that would need to be fixed.

2) Less expensive and more numerous.  You don't risk a WarShip if it's a campaign-level asset and you have three of them and no way to replace them.  It sits in orbit around a capital of some kind and it never leaves dock except in existential emergencies.

3) Functionally impervious to aerospace fighters.  That doesn't mean completely invulnerable, it means that a squadron of fighters should be an annoyance, not an existential threat.  A WarShip's only great enemy should be another WarShip.

The result is an additional layer of the strategic level, where WarShips duke it out with other WarShips too pierce orbital defenses for DropShips to get to the surface.  Aerospace fighters escort DropShips against other fighters, and WarShips against capital missiles.  DropShips do their damn level best to not die on the way down to the surface, and their guns can provide additional firepower against fighters.  With 1) it also prevents WarShips from making the ground fight completely irrelevant without extreme, nigh-catastrophic risk.  A risk that can be taken, if there are enough WarShips on a campaign level that one or two won't tilt the entire strategic consideration out of balance.
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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #20 on: 08 April 2018, 17:48:33 »
As a counterpoint to 1.) I would like to suggest increased deployment of (better designed) Rattlers.  Mobile STO platforms could provide shields for 'mech regiments.

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #21 on: 08 April 2018, 17:52:45 »
Has the unintended side effect of making DropShips non-viable, unfortunately, if used in large enough numbers to conceivably threaten WarShips.  We want those to get to the ground, remember! ;)  Plus it doesn't really help on the lesser defended planets, unless you're suggesting multiple Rattlers be deployed to every single planet in the game as it exists (in which case why not just build more 'Mechs)?
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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #22 on: 08 April 2018, 17:53:51 »
If Arrow IV's could reach orbit, 'mech-deployable anti-warship weapons would be a possibility...

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #23 on: 08 April 2018, 18:04:52 »
Has the unintended side effect of making DropShips non-viable, unfortunately, if used in large enough numbers to conceivably threaten WarShips.  We want those to get to the ground, remember! ;)  Plus it doesn't really help on the lesser defended planets, unless you're suggesting multiple Rattlers be deployed to every single planet in the game as it exists (in which case why not just build more 'Mechs)?

Well, it would make "Direct combat drop on the enemy 'mechs" a suicidally risky idea.  However, "land on the other side of the mountains from the enemy regiment and close to contact" would be viable.  Papa Joe's wheat fields aren't a normal target for orbital NPPC fire.  Colonel Jim-Bob's 'mech regiment is.  Besides, to threaten Warships, all you really need do is get Threshold hits.

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #24 on: 08 April 2018, 18:18:30 »
1. As others have said, mech degradation & Hit locations
2. Initiative winner having a tactical advantage
3. Heat management
4. Crits
5. Piloting skill rolls
6. Mechs reigning supreme
 
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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #25 on: 08 April 2018, 21:08:48 »
Warships could be totally fine if they were:

1) Not an asymmetrical relationship with ground units.  As is they're untouchable outside of capital missiles or capital naval guns.  If they could be threatened by 'Mech-borne weapons they would be too much to risk on orbital bombardment.  Since that's ultimately what makes them paradigm-destroying, this is something that would need to be fixed.

2) Less expensive and more numerous.  You don't risk a WarShip if it's a campaign-level asset and you have three of them and no way to replace them.  It sits in orbit around a capital of some kind and it never leaves dock except in existential emergencies.

3) Functionally impervious to aerospace fighters.  That doesn't mean completely invulnerable, it means that a squadron of fighters should be an annoyance, not an existential threat.  A WarShip's only great enemy should be another WarShip.

The result is an additional layer of the strategic level, where WarShips duke it out with other WarShips too pierce orbital defenses for DropShips to get to the surface.  Aerospace fighters escort DropShips against other fighters, and WarShips against capital missiles.  DropShips do their damn level best to not die on the way down to the surface, and their guns can provide additional firepower against fighters.  With 1) it also prevents WarShips from making the ground fight completely irrelevant without extreme, nigh-catastrophic risk.  A risk that can be taken, if there are enough WarShips on a campaign level that one or two won't tilt the entire strategic consideration out of balance.

I see #1 brought up a lot and there is certainly some truth to it but as you mention with more common Rattlers if the defender has Warships of their own the ability for attackers to get mechs to the ground is suddenly at risk even if the attacker has their own Warships.  So Orbital Bombardment in of itself isn't really the problem, especially as Battletech has given us plenty of other ways to do some serious damage to ground forces without giving the defender a chance to respond.

#2 just exacerbates problem #1.

#3 I'm not against giving ASFs a way to take down Warships and be a threat in small numbers but certainly it needs to come at some sort of opportunity cost so that you just can't swarm a Warship with ASFs.

But all that probably needs to go into the other thread that inspired this one, as well as a lot of my further thoughts.

As for what defines Battletech for me is that it has a level of tactical nuance that few other games deliver while still having plenty ability for plans to go sideways thanks to vengeful dice all while hanging with my friends and having fun.

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #26 on: 08 April 2018, 21:41:47 »
I'm not sure I follow your thought process (or rather, I think it relies on an assumption I'm not making and I don't think warrants being considered an assumption).  Attacking a planet that has WarShip support with no WarShip support of your own would have to either be A) covert or B) stupid.  Bringing a WarShip force of your own is for the express purpose of occupying the defending WarShip force, because if they're targeting your droppers they're ceding control of the planet's space to you.  Especially since WarShips can bring their own Dropships, so that the defenders can't outmaneuver the escort and take down forces in atmo without inviting horrific losses.

My ideal BattleTech space layer includes WarShips taking up a screening formation between the defending WarShips and deploying DropShips to the planet, which are escorted to the surface by fighters.  At that point it's a matter of tactical proficiency in a way that "deploy more Rattlers" just does not accomplish, between the deployment of defending fighters to contest the landing and the interplay that happens there and the full on naval battle (which occupies even more fighters in escort missions).

Making WarShips accept potentially catastrophic risk in order to interfere with the ground battle underway prevents them from making the ground fight utterly inconsequential to the grand scheme of things.  It also helps that WarShips can serve a purpose beyond "defend this particular ball of dust come hell or high water, because you're never leaving once you get here" unlike Rattlers.

Rattlers are also rules nightmares, in my personal opinion, while WarShips could conceivably be streamlined to be playable without destroying the ground game in the process.

But, I'm willing to accept I'm in the minority here.
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SteelRaven

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #27 on: 08 April 2018, 22:04:38 »
I apologies to Warship fans but I like the fact BTU uses large space craft for transports like aircraft carries vs space dreadnoughts like everyone else in sci-fi following the Star Wars model. Let the smaller, somewhat cheaper craft duke it out instead of big, expensive targets for nukes.

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monbvol

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #28 on: 08 April 2018, 22:54:30 »
Mostly I'm just thinking about the Warship problem in both directions as anything that can threaten a Warship will also logically present a potential for the Defender to make invading a very risky prospect without significant hand waving, potentially more than we have now.

It is a tricky balancing act to be sure and it isn't like orbital bombardment was ever restricted to Warships.  Even as far back as Battlespace Dropships could mount Capital Missiles.  With their ability to mount sub-capital weapons, some even having capital long range, they may not have as much raw conventional power in performing orbital bombardment but they can still do it.

Ultimately it isn't what this thread is about though.

I apologies to Warship fans but I like the fact BTU uses large space craft for transports like aircraft carries vs space dreadnoughts like everyone else in sci-fi following the Star Wars model. Let the smaller, somewhat cheaper craft duke it out instead of big, expensive targets for nukes.

I don't mind Warships existing.  It makes logical sense that what ever form Warships wind up taking interstellar empires are going to make space born tactically mobile and strategically mobile craft for the purposes of prosecuting invasions, defending against invasions, and numerous other operations that Dropships, Jumpships, Spacestations, Small Craft, and ASFs would be ill suited for.  At least under the current game and construction rules.

The trouble is as things stand now isn't great.

Charistoph

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Re: What Defines Battletech for you?
« Reply #29 on: 08 April 2018, 23:56:18 »
Oddly enough, warships do not take anything away from Battletech for me.  I guess it is because they don't hold planets and so dang difficult and expensive to build that they are relatively rare.  Part of it may also be that I never made it past the first Dark Age book in the fluff, nor have I procured any of the manuals since the end of the FedCom Civil War.  Even the Clanners didn't have many warships, with the odd exceptions.

To me, Battletech represents two things:
1) A universe filled with big stompy robots ruling a battlefield a millennia in the future that is just recovering from a Mad Max environment they had bombed themselves in to.

2) A highly detailed TT game with a well-balanced phased alternation turn system that also took efforts to limit the many advantages of energy weapons (not perfectly, but better than some) and allowed me to build my own units.

Sadly, this last one makes it difficult to encourage other people to play, no matter how interesting the universe is.  It is just far to detailed to make for a quick game, especially if you want to add more than the minimum lance v lance setup.  When you have games like Dropzone Commander which operate on a similar model scale, but able to bring a quick game, it seems disappointing. 
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