What do you think is a game breaking build?

[Tyler Jorgensson]

I always thought the Bane 3 was the death off all units. A mech that can launch up too 120 points of damage at SHORT ranges is a scary mech.

Fixed

[grimlock1]

VDNI+Interface Cockpit+(Tarcomp OR AES)+VSP= -6 to hit

VDNI+Interface Cockpit+(Tarcomp OR AES)+cLPAS= -5 to hit, from more than a map away

VDNI+Interface Cockpit+AES+Artemis V+LRM or SRM of choice= -4 to hit

VDNI+Interface Cockpit+AES+iNARC+LRM or SRM of choice= -4 to hit

Enhanced Imaging stacks with Interface Cockpit but the targeting buffs for EI are more situational.  Depending on how you interpret the "to a minimum modifier of +1" parenthetical note, EI only offers a targeting buff when dealing with heavy woods, jungle or smoke.

The cheese only gets gooier when quirks like Variable Range Targeting, Accurate Weapon, and Stabilized Weapon come into play.  Then there are all the SPAs.

Piloting can be similarly perked.

VDNI+Interface Cockpit+AES+quad chassis = -4 psr from damage.  I don't think anything but AES can stack to help with melee rolls.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

The cheesiest, game breaker in canon has to be the Hellstar. It has enough DHS to cool down an alpha strike and only builds heat if it ran while alpha-ing.

The Hellstar isn't really a game breaker.  It's a really, really boring mech to play because it's really only got one trick.  And because of that, it's relatively easy to counter.  Open up on it with infernos or plasma weapons and suddenly it's only firing three PPCs per round, for one thing.

[Mendrugo]

Some game breakers I've run into include:

1) A custom 50-ton LAM that can jump 15 in AirMech mode and is crammed full of Machine Guns.  AirMech Jump into the rear arc->evade enemy fire due to +5 to-hit modifiers->can-opener the rear armor with 25+ machine guns firing at Short range for zero heat.

2) In Chaos Campaign Tracks that base the OpFor on deployed player strength, fielding a single Ferret VTOL in scenarios involving "Get Across the Map and Off Edge A" or "Get to Hex B and Recover Target" -  giving the OpFor so little to work with that they're practically not even there.

[chaosticket]

The Hellstar isn't really a game breaker.  It's a really, really boring mech to play because it's really only got one trick.  And because of that, it's relatively easy to counter.  Open up on it with infernos or plasma weapons and suddenly it's only firing three PPCs per round, for one thing.

And if you dont have the counters?

Reflective armor and a Blue Particle Shield would reduce a Hellstar's damage by about 75%. Or counter their Inferno missiles with your own Inferno missiles or use Heat-disappointing armor.

Counter equipment like Reflective or Reactive Armor, heat-building weapons and ammunition, and so on are choices with benefits but also leaving you weak against anything but the specific thing its countering.

So from what I hear from about 3067 and later is mostly about all this counter-equipment making things into a Rock-Paper-Scissors game.

[Hellraiser]

Most everything has some type of counter in BT..... mostly.

What is "game breaking" is coming to the game expecting 1 thing & then finding something arrayed against you which works perfectly against your force.

Also, having something that is very powerful but w/ weaknesses & then covering those weaknesses w/ another unit.


For example.  Loads of cheap Artillery & LRMs, protected by even cheaper SRM Infantry & Saladins, all with a couple Grasshoppers standing in front of them.

That kind of overlapping effectiveness makes for a very hard nut to crack.

[Kit deSummersville]

I always thought the Bane 3 was the death off all units. A mech that can launch up too 120 points of damage at long ranges is a scary mech.

Then some fool came up with a canon unit that fires 150 LRMs from a single point's worth and moves 4/6. There's always a bigger fish in the pond.

[massey]

Most everything has some type of counter in BT..... mostly.

What is "game breaking" is coming to the game expecting 1 thing & then finding something arrayed against you which works perfectly against your force.

Also, having something that is very powerful but w/ weaknesses & then covering those weaknesses w/ another unit.


For example.  Loads of cheap Artillery & LRMs, protected by even cheaper SRM Infantry & Saladins, all with a couple Grasshoppers standing in front of them.

That kind of overlapping effectiveness makes for a very hard nut to crack.

I agree.  "Game breaking" is when you bring something that is outside the gentlemen's agreement of a normal tabletop game.  If I sit down with my buddy to play Battletech, and he brings a lance of mechs, and I bring some super-cheesed-out infantry, then I've broken the game.  He's expecting mech vs mech, and suddenly he's facing guys with heavy armor, sneak suits, and whatever weapon combo is most effective.  His Atlas is gonna feel pretty useless.  Gaming by ambush isn't fun.

[Jellico]

And if you dont have the counters?

Reflective armor and a Blue Particle Shield would reduce a Hellstar's damage by about 75%. Or counter their Inferno missiles with your own Inferno missiles or use Heat-disappointing armor.

Counter equipment like Reflective or Reactive Armor, heat-building weapons and ammunition, and so on are choices with benefits but also leaving you weak against anything but the specific thing its countering.

So from what I hear from about 3067 and later is mostly about all this counter-equipment making things into a Rock-Paper-Scissors game.

It doesn't need to be that complex. Just close on a Hellstar. PPCs don't have a spectacular damage to weight ratio. Plenty of mid ranged brawlers can make it uncomfortable.

The danger with the Hellstar is its range which allows it to camp and snipe.
And it's 4 x 15 point weapons which mean a 1/36 chance of death every time it hits.
Deny it the chance to hit you.

[Tai Dai Cultist]

Or you could just use Reflec Armor and kick its freeborn lovin' ass.

Same thing for the infinite LRM boat... it's pure junk against the wrong gimmick armor.

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

It doesn't need to be that complex. Just close on a Hellstar. PPCs don't have a spectacular damage to weight ratio. Plenty of mid ranged brawlers can make it uncomfortable.

The danger with the Hellstar is its range which allows it to camp and snipe.
And it's 4 x 15 point weapons which mean a 1/36 chance of death every time it hits.
Deny it the chance to hit you.

That's what I was thinking: hit it with some brawlers that can spam medium lasers or shove an Ultra 20 in its face.  Or for real giggles, bring in a few infantry platoons to play personal space invader with its legs.

[chaosticket]

Oh well. I was hoping to find some exciting build ideas.

Instead its more about people trying to counter any ideas that are brought up.

If thats the case then a player would work to cover their own weaknesses with other specialized battlemechs like a Light for an Assault.

[Tymers Realm]

@chaosticket
If you're coming at your OP question from say a Clan Invasion through FCCW era perspective, the 'cheese' is there. But with a lot of the 'gimmick' armors and other tech that show up from the Jihad and later, I would say its harder to make a 'One cheese to rule them all' type of design.
I would tend to say it depends on your local playing environment.

[massey]

Oh well. I was hoping to find some exciting build ideas.

Instead its more about people trying to counter any ideas that are brought up.

If thats the case then a player would work to cover their own weaknesses with other specialized battlemechs like a Light for an Assault.

Well, I've always had a soft spot for a Clan 30 tonner, 10/15/10 movement, with 4 ER Medium Lasers.  Or 8 ER Smalls.  If you win initiative, jump behind your opponent for a +5 mod.  If you lose initiative, jump out of sight.

Or a 75 tonner with 5/8 movement, 14 DHS, 11 tons of FF armor, and 12 Streak SRM 4s.  Fire everything you have, every round.  You won't hit with everything, so you will likely never go up heat.  If you do happen to hit with everything, it'll suck more for them than it does for you.

[Jellico]

That's what I was thinking: hit it with some brawlers that can spam medium lasers or shove an Ultra 20 in its face.  Or for real giggles, bring in a few infantry platoons to play personal space invader with its legs.

For a little while when designing stuff the Hellstar was a good go to for evaluating your design. It got a bit like the way cars are very good at saving crash test dummies. Some of the 3145/50 stuff tears a Hellstar to shreds in a 1:1 situation.

[JPArbiter]

Combining Manei Domini implants with Society Gene Therapy Technology in Septescemia mechs with both C3i and Machina Domini Interface Tech with an Alamo Class Nuclear Warhead parked in slot 4 of the cockpit is pretty game breaking...

[Fat Guy]

I remember for a long, looooooong time four 'Mechs dominated the tournament scene. For the Inner Sphere it was the Nightsky and Wraith, and for the Clans the Goshawk and Viper.

[SCC]

Against that guy you know who doesn't like playing past 3025? Heat-causing weapons, Centurion Weapon System and some infantry to take over his units whilst their shut down.

[chaosticket]

I remember for a long, looooooong time four 'Mechs dominated the tournament scene. For the Inner Sphere it was the Nightsky and Wraith, and for the Clans the Goshawk and Viper.

There are a lot of possible tactics but I dont think they can be considered "game breakers".

#1 Jump Jets and Pulse laser armed battlemechs are one possible tactic. 

#2 Artillery+spotters,
#3 High speed and/or jump jets with Ultra ac-20s or HAGs,
#4 Battle armor of various kinds
#5 Melee mechs with Triple strength myomer and Energy Weapons

[MoneyLovinOgre4Hire]

Mechs that are good at one on one duels rarely do as well on a battlefield fighting multiple opponents.

[chaosticket]

Overspecializing on defense or offense equipment if the counter-argument to any statement here. Say you counter a Laser boat, but then you have to fight  a missile boat, or a player has Well-rounded mechs with ballistic, missile, and energy weapons and youre now weak to most of their weapons.

General defense like Standard armor are still useful on anything.

Well what about Nova CEWS?

[Col Toda]

Every game breaking build is off set by new tactical approaches .  The Targeting computer and pulse laser combo is met with combined arms hover vehicles in which one light mech with an XL engine gets replaced with up to 3 hover or wheeled vehicles with a fuel cellvor ICE engine with enough armor to take a couple of more hits in any location than a light mechs every location . The TSM and Axe is met with infernos , plasma rifles and ECM doing ghost targets . To further mitigate any tech just having a command console and winning initiative 2/3 eds more times blunt any enemy advantage regardless of source .

[JadeHellbringer]

TO me, the 'game break' isn't about something unbeatable in the game- every build can be beat, Battletech does a pretty good job overall of balancing itself- the 'broken' status applies to forces that are so awful to play against that players don't want to even deal with it- you 'win' by forcing your opponent to not want to even play the game anymore. Massed SRM carriers take forever to roll out, for example. I've heard the old legends about people who 'claim' (bleh) to have painted a dozen of one unit exactly the same, then play a shell game- which one is the damaged one vs. the one with the pristine armor? Who knows!

Antics like that are 'game breaking', to me- because I do gaming, Battletech included, for relaxation and fun. If a game is designed to simply irritate me into giving up, it'll work. ONCE. Congratulations on your hard-earned victory, revel in the odor of cheese, and don't call me for gaming with you again- I assure you, your phone won't ring either. Have respect for your opponent.

[guardiandashi]

It's not game breaking per say, but I would say one of the most effective groups would be a heavy hole puncher such as a hellstar with a mid ranged shredder in support a a massive critical monger.

To put it another way a PPC/gauss unit,  something like a nova prime, or a LRM boat, and then a simple carrier, or lb 20x spammer

[chaosticket]

Okay in terms of game balance "game breakers" are bad when its Player Versus Player as that means one player has an overwhelming advantage. Its still possible to balance things out or use fair conduct so you dont need to bring the nuclear option every time.

For single player experiences its different in that its whether or not you want to use it.

From a tactical perspective its more necessary. Depending on the Era and equipment what balances things may be very different. Are you using Tonnnage? C-bill value? Battle Value 1 or 2? Is everyone using default equipment or are you customizing? Are you using 3025, 3039, 3050, clan, jihad, or Mixed technology?

Right now well Im trying to find if there is a way to end the technological stalemate on the tabletop. If everyone is using mixed technology then battles are mostly about attrition.

I remember back in the day (3025 era) to be exact, where the divide between mechs was much more clear. Long range mechs could easily be Game Breakers especially on the Lance level as that meant you had them a as a group focusing their fire. Small faster mechs would be the first to enter range and then be blown apart. Stronger and slower mechs would come later but basic tactics meant a divided attack could be taken down piecemeal.

Later technology makes that basically impossible as there is no little reason for anything to no have at least one long range weapon.

My personal goal would be to use Snipers and Artillery. I dont think there are rules for Arrow IVs spotting their own targets from long range. Closest I can get to that now would be to have every frontline unit with TAG and have an extra lance or so of Artillery off the board. That artillery would have to be as cheap as possible so it doesnt noticably weaken my frontline forces.

[Daryk]

It doesn't get much cheaper than infantry with field artillery...  They're not very mobile, but that's fixable.

[chaosticket]

Well, is everything supposed to be a stalemate now?

I have a fondness for 3025 designs as they have very clear specializations and coined terms like "missile Boat". Jack-of-all trades builds like the Centurion, Dragon, and Orion existed. "fixing" them with later technology is fun, but it also leads to not having significant weaknesses aside from some unfixable fundamental problems, like Inner Sphere case only working on Torsos and working poorly with anything but standard engines. Clan Technology is the peak but when everyone uses it its nothing special.

[Challenger]

I did have one tactic I stopped using because it was too difficult to counter to the point of making the game unfun.

Ran a force made of purely of 55ton 5/8/8 mechs with SNPPCs, TC and TSM. In short every mech in the force jumped like a Spider, had the armour of a Wolverine, the firepower of a Warhammer and the kick of an Atlas. Tricky to use correctly, but lethal when used on mass, I mean who doesn’t like taking 22pt damage kicks from 3+ mechs a turn while firing back with a +4 to hit modifier. It does not help that their BV is fairly low for their firepower.

Found two counters though. Massed elite steath armoured BA and massed Venoms. BA because they struggle to kill them quickly and Venoms because they can catch them, hit them and hurt them while being basicaly 2 for 1 in terms of BV. Think F15 vs F16.

Challenger

[RoundTop]

And this is why tonnage sucks as balancing.

[CrazyGrasshopper]

Well, Supernova 4 is definitely balance-breaking.