Author Topic: Too comlex?  (Read 10727 times)

ADW_Ace

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Too comlex?
« on: 14 October 2011, 04:40:19 »
Hi there, I have a few friends who I am trying to introduce CBT to. They each went to the hobby store in our town and purchased mechs. Gleefully they tore into the boxes, excited to assemble and paint their mechs. After an hour of frustration trying to assemble his mini, one of my friends gave up, the other perservered and finished but said she would never purchase an other mini. Looking at my friend's unfinished Thunderbolt, I couldn't help but wonder if maybe some of the models are a little too complex, especially to new players. Am I the only one that thinks this? Don't get me wrong, I love IWM, they have always been good to me and their customer service is tops.

DarkISI

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #1 on: 14 October 2011, 04:52:47 »
Yes, some minis are extremely complex. Especially the Thunderbolt is a difficult one to build. Same for the Marauder. It would be great, if IWM would mark their miniatures with a complexity chart, so beginners know, how difficult it will be for them to assemble the mini.
As a rule of thump: The more parts the legs have, the more difficult it is to assemble the mini.
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Shi_no_Kami

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #2 on: 14 October 2011, 06:58:30 »
Battletech has a very large range of model complexity.

From the Blackjack's uber-simple 1 piece sculpt to things like the Archer, Thunderbolt, and Phoenix Hawk... overall, I'd say that DarkISI is right on the money, the legs are what really make a model really difficult. Some models like the T-Bolt I've pinned just because it was much easier to build with the extra support.

What beginners (especially those who may have very little model building experience) should really try to get their hands on are the starter lances. Almost all the models in those are nice 1 piece kits. 1 Peice models make it easy to jumpt to the painting stage, and then move on to simpler few piece models.

I'd also suggest some building tips that can reduce the frustration.
1.) Wash the parts carefully with soap to clean ALL the mold release off. Mold release makes it harder for super glue to bind with the metal.
2.) score the contact points on parts with an exacto blade or emery board. A slightly rough surface binds faster and stronger when using super glue.

If I'm being presumptuous I apologize, I just hope to give some tips that will hopefully let them enjoy Battletech more. I find the hobby building side to be a very enjoyable part of the game.

CranstonSnord

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #3 on: 14 October 2011, 08:20:45 »
In my experience, ever since I started pinning every joint I could, assembly has been a snap. The pin helps immobilize the joint, so the glue sets up faster and stronger.

speck

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #4 on: 14 October 2011, 08:32:46 »
Yes, some minis are extremely complex. Especially the Thunderbolt is a difficult one to build. Same for the Marauder. It would be great, if IWM would mark their miniatures with a complexity chart, so beginners know, how difficult it will be for them to assemble the mini.
As a rule of thump: The more parts the legs have, the more difficult it is to assemble the mini.

That is a good idea, I will explore it to see how best to implement it on the website and as a document

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #5 on: 14 October 2011, 08:32:55 »
There is a small percentage of minis that will challenge even an experienced builder. The T-Bolt is one of the foremost among them. The majority are not even close to that difficulty.

I take it that both players are completely new to miniature gaming? Why did they choose the pieces they did - were they ones they initially played with, liked the looks of, or just randomly what the store had?

I'm trying to figure out why the hardest 1% of minis seem to be what new players end up grabbing...

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #6 on: 14 October 2011, 08:46:33 »
I'm trying to figure out why the hardest 1% of minis seem to be what new players end up grabbing...

They often end up being the game's better-looking and more iconic Mechs. Thunderbolt, Vulture, Masakari, Warhammer... good stuff, great looking minis... and a flaming pain in the ass to build.
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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #7 on: 14 October 2011, 08:52:59 »
They often end up being the game's better-looking and more iconic Mechs. Thunderbolt, Vulture, Masakari, Warhammer... good stuff, great looking minis... and a flaming pain in the ass to build.

I didn't have trouble with any of them, but I have trouble with the Maelstrom, and the Mad Cat Mk II.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #8 on: 14 October 2011, 09:07:49 »
I didn't have trouble with any of them, but I have trouble with the Maelstrom, and the Mad Cat Mk II.

You know, I've never actually built a Maelstrom. What was hard about it? I've been considering one for a project, and a little advance-recon can't hurt.

For me, the absolute worst to build was the Jupiter- and while I forgive minis like the Thunderbolt for being difficult, it's because they look damned nice when they're done. That Jupiter... ugh.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
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BlazingSky

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #9 on: 14 October 2011, 09:13:59 »
You know, I've never actually built a Maelstrom. What was hard about it? I've been considering one for a project, and a little advance-recon can't hurt.

It's legs are separate from the torso and the feet, and the feet on on the base, and I felt that the line of the legs didn't quite match up to the base of the foot. It stands properly, but it was just a pain to get the legs into the feet and on to the body, and neither leg quite faces properly.
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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #10 on: 14 October 2011, 09:16:19 »
For me, the absolute worst to build was the Jupiter

I actually had to cut the foot pieces apart, for me to able to build the Jupiter. But aside from that, I didn't think it was all that difficult. The bird legged Clan 'Mechs and the Thunderbolt (standard reseen and 10M) were far more challenging.

That is a good idea, I will explore it to see how best to implement it on the website and as a document

Thank you. I really like, that you think about such ideas, when they come up :)
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BlazingSky

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #11 on: 14 October 2011, 09:18:45 »
Really the 10M was a difficult build? Aside from the stupid pose, it ended up being easier than the original Reseen.
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DarkISI

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #12 on: 14 October 2011, 09:21:53 »
The legs were a pain in the ass, they simply refused to hold. Had to stuff clay in the hip, for the legs to stop falling off. Pinning would have worked, too, but I had nothing to pin them.
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3rdCrucisLancers

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #13 on: 14 October 2011, 09:27:37 »
Wow, I rarely have these problems. Have you tried swearing a lot? That tends to help me. Also washing the pieces beforehand in lukewarm water, but mostly swearing.
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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #14 on: 14 October 2011, 09:33:35 »
It's legs are separate from the torso and the feet, and the feet on on the base, and I felt that the line of the legs didn't quite match up to the base of the foot. It stands properly, but it was just a pain to get the legs into the feet and on to the body, and neither leg quite faces properly.

Aw crap, it's one of those hellspawned ideas? I had a hell of a time dealing with the Daimyo for the same reason... maybe it's time to re-evaluate whether something else fits the plan instead.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #15 on: 14 October 2011, 09:36:29 »
It's nowhere near as bad as the Daimyo, one of the few minis to give me real trouble.
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ADW_Ace

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #16 on: 14 October 2011, 09:40:29 »
No disrespect taken Shi. They have had some experience in model gaming. They chose the mechs they did because they were ones they ran with in a game we played. Though the ones we used were unseen models. One thing that confused us with the t-bolt, was the extra ****** pit. Why are there two?

JadeHellbringer

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #17 on: 14 October 2011, 09:52:10 »
No disrespect taken Shi. They have had some experience in model gaming. They chose the mechs they did because they were ones they ran with in a game we played. Though the ones we used were unseen models. One thing that confused us with the t-bolt, was the extra ****** pit. Why are there two?

I never have heard a good reason other than 'pick whichever you like better', but for me, I like using the larger of the two, and then putting the smaller one on the mini for the Arctic Wolf- it fits perfectly between the shoulders like it was designed to go there, and improves the look of the mini immensely. When I get my collection back out of storage I'll have to get a photo.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

DarkISI

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #18 on: 14 October 2011, 12:03:50 »
I never have heard a good reason other than 'pick whichever you like better', but for me, I like using the larger of the two, and then putting the smaller one on the mini for the Arctic Wolf- it fits perfectly between the shoulders like it was designed to go there, and improves the look of the mini immensely. When I get my collection back out of storage I'll have to get a photo.

I did exactly the same :D
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Whitar

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #19 on: 14 October 2011, 13:01:06 »
Thunderbolt's only weakness were feet, and it's great that upper feet were onepiece with hips.

It was easier to assamble than the resculpted Marauder (MAD-9S) I don't even want to buy the clan version, looking on those joints. My major complain - why the upper feet have no link joints to the hip? I have the one that's standing on one foot, and it was really hard to balance. Also had to fill hard the gaps in the foot-lower foot connection. The arm round elbow joint is sooo thin too. I like the model, but it was a nightmare.  Surrely not a beginers mini. The same feet problem was in the unseen MAD IIC, though was made by ral partha.

All other Omnimechs are really OK.

Arctic Wolf? Like this one? http://darkisi.de/battletech/images/100_2936.JPG
« Last Edit: 14 October 2011, 13:04:25 by Whitar »

whiteshadowzo

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #20 on: 14 October 2011, 14:50:19 »
The warhammer was a pain for me with the foot/toe thing. The marauder I didn't have too much trouble with but the bushwacker and anubis as well as my first argus and the owens. Any one where you need to do a balancing act between the feet, legs and waist always is a pain. I usually end up gluing my fingers to the pewter. #P
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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #21 on: 14 October 2011, 15:18:44 »
It's worth noting that most of the most complex minis were made in the first flush of TRO Project Phoenix being released. The sculptors at the time were intending to deliver the best, most impressive, most flexible minis possible, with lots of potential for reposing, modding and customisation. And while there have always been examples of off-scale minis dating back as far as the Battledroids minis, the tendency to larger minis also seems to trace back to here - it's easier to provide more details on a larger mini, and thinner parts become stronger when expanded.

In retrospect, it's arguable they went a little over the top (Scylla fingers, anyone??). The scale creep remains a potential issue, but IMHO IWM learned the lesson on over-complexity.

As always, YMMV.

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JadeHellbringer

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #22 on: 14 October 2011, 15:47:39 »
Ugh, the Scylla. Gluing FINGERS on the arms, multi-piece legs despite feet fixed to the base, a top-laser that breaks if you look at it wrong, massively oversized... my pleasure to never do another of those. If I needed a reason to be happy for the death of the Viper Clan, that's all I need.
"There's a difference between the soldier and his fight,
But the warrior knows the true meaning of his life."
+Larry and his Flask, 'Blood Drunk'+

"You know, basically war is just, like, a bunch of people playing pranks on each other, but at the end they all die."
+Crow T. Robot+

DarkISI

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #23 on: 14 October 2011, 17:06:27 »
Arctic Wolf? Like this one? http://darkisi.de/battletech/images/100_2936.JPG

It ended up as one of my painting experiments, but yes.
Wow, I forgot I uploaded that picture.
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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #24 on: 14 October 2011, 20:55:31 »
With exceeding complex figures I've learned CA Accelerator is a good friend.
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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #25 on: 15 October 2011, 02:29:35 »
It's funny, but having put together (in this order) a Thunderbolt 9NAIS, a standard Phoenix Thunderbolt, a Thunderbolt 10SE, and a Thunderbolt 10M, the only one that gave me any problems was the standard T-Bolt, and that was largely because my glue was going bad.  The 9NAIS in particular turned out very nice looking, especially since it's one of my earlier minis that I put together- I have it in a running pose that the legs work well with.  By comparison, the standard Thunderbolt looks rather like it's in the middle of toppling backwards.
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Charlemagne

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #26 on: 15 October 2011, 22:01:49 »
After having put together nearly 300 Battletech minis, and more WH40K minis than I care to count, I cannot emphasize one thing too much; PIN EVERYTHING. 

I seldom have issues putting together anything that can take a piece of 20 gauge metal to pin it to another piece.  Then again, I still have yet to put the frigging flaps on my two Archers :)
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TheDean

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #27 on: 15 October 2011, 22:17:07 »
With miniature assembly I would consider myself an expert, with that said I would rather have a 20+ piece model any day of the week because it would allow a massive range of posses and possibilities, the time investment is irrelevant because absolutely I love to assemble models and love a good challenge. But from a beginner stand point I totally get it, maybe in the future you should try to do a bit of research and suggest models that have say legs, torso and 2 arms only. There are plenty of them. I hope you can get those people back, and as they grow as hobbiest they will want to test their skills and try for harder models!  8)

txMaddog

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #28 on: 16 October 2011, 01:36:59 »
Check here for some good building tips.

http://brianscache.com/

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Re: Too comlex?
« Reply #29 on: 16 October 2011, 10:05:19 »
Brian's Cache has the number one mini assembling tip in it. It doesn't matter how many pieces something has if you just have a couple of wads of putty or clay to hold things in position.

 

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