Here is what I have:(remember they had to have. Pulverizer's, Mercury II's, & Stag's for Comstar to discover the designs.)
1 Marauder (Khan's Personal)
1 Spartan
1 Lancelot (infamous)
1 Exterminator
1 Wolverine II
2 Mercury II
I need to fill out my medium lance and build a econ/scout lance. I also wanted the ideas for some air and armor. Then I should be close to a battalion in strength.
It is not Herb we must fear, it is those devilish cats of his. ;)
The theory the 331st founded the Umayid just does :-\not add up to me. A highly organized and trained military unit would not turn into what the Umayid has become. Also some of the higher tech would have been noticed and survived. We would have seen all the Wolverine designs before the Blake Documents.
What about the theory we may finally find our when the dark age is rewritten? I for one would just like a good solid concrete answer.
It is not Herb we must fear, it is those Godlike cats of his. ;)FTFY
Are they fighting aliens in the Deep Periphery?
Their were Dark Caste even before the Wolverines were annihilated, hold outs from Kerenskys troops mostly. They gained strength whenever a Clan was abjured or annihilated.
Sounds plausible. ;)
For my own side project what naval assets did the wolverines have as of betrayal of ideals?
[cheers]
TT
After all this, I'm really hoping the Wolverines survive the Jihad in some viable form.This is a funny statement considering we don't even know if they survived their trial of annihilation! ;D
Sure we even have a guide what to wear by using the Jihad Conspiracys picture of the Wolverines standing around in robes looking at a hologram of the Inner Sphere. But we get to pick the colors!
What color screams WINNING?
Who controls the Marik Crown?
Who takes the HPG net down?
We do, we do
Who keeps the Five Worlds off the maps?
Who keeps the lostech under wraps?
We do, we do
Who runs the Wobblies from afar?
Who pulls the strings behind Com-star?
We do, we do
Who paints ComGuard fighters white?
Who rigs the Solaris fights?
We do, we do!
Next year at GenCon we'll give Herb a chorus!
Remember your only allowed to give Herb a chorus if you all have the outfits. ;)
Maw probably just green jumpsuits with wolverine and Minnesota Tribe patches like the Lancelot pilot.
Maw probably just green jumpsuits with wolverine and Minnesota Tribe patches like the Lancelot pilot.
The Wolverine clothing from Blake Documents isn't bad.
http://www.classicbattletech.com/downloads/BlakeDocuments_Page_118.pdf
The Wolverine clothing from Blake Documents isn't bad.
http://www.classicbattletech.com/downloads/BlakeDocuments_Page_118.pdf
This image has always made me wonder:
Why does the course they're talking about around teh map go away from the Inner Sphere after the stop in Canopian Space.....
A Mckenna, two Texas's, A Vincent, a Whirlwind, and at least four unknowns. a more or less complete list of warships is in a Aerospace thread stickied at the top.
It could be a picture of the Star League-in-Exile setting their course for their escape from the Clans, before they were wiped out by Nicky K, joined the WoB, got captured by Brain Slugs and put to work in the Slurm mines, or off fighting aliens. The date adds context and we don't know the date represented in the pic.
Don't think its ever been told, couldn't have been more than a few Clusters of Wolverines about that time. It was only a year and a half after Operation Klondike after all, so I'm guessing maybe, just maybe 6-8 Clusters of Wolverines-a little more than a Galaxy, if you count the original 40, there auxilleries and whomever they adopted from the Rasmussen Elite, Kerensky Dominion, and the L'Isle des Aigles forces as well as whomever they trained after Klondike. And thats being optomistic. It could have been as few as 4 Clusters in total with equipment scrounged up and non-warriors piloting mechs as part of the Minnesota Tribe.
Anyone have the Wolverine touman as of the time of Annihilation? Also, I just had a genius idea, why not a source book entitled Annihilation? That would sell.
* Historical Fact: In battles from 2853 onwards V Corps units may Bank Initiative. In battles from 2853 onwards V Corps may select its own home edge in any battle in which it is the attacker. Historical: Reunification War, p. 181, "The Star League"
A Mckenna, two Texas's, A Vincent, a Whirlwind, and at least four unknowns. a more or less complete list of warships is in a Aerospace thread stickied at the top.
Really doesn't work. The Wolverines were made up of mechs they had that were with them from Klondike and what they gained afterwords, and they could have come from anyplace.
I get the impression that the Wolverines may have been one of the stronger Clans in terms of numbers and equipment. If they had a mech line producing assault mechs, they must have had some bias towards the bigger machines.
The Wolverines had essentially started a arms race, one the other Clans would be starting way behind. They were also were winning more than their share of trials which promoted jealousy among some other Clans. Size wise they probably were slightly larger than most Clans but I doubt they were the largest-yet. The big deal about the Pulverizer was that it was new, not a rebuild or a Star League vet, but from the ground up new and using new tech Battlemech, something all the other Clans had yet to even put on a drawing board or thought it might be a good idea. From the Story Betrayal of Ideals Nicky K initially saw it as a good thing at first, the Wolverines starting an Arms Race would build up his Clans as a whole-more competition and a kick in the rear for other Clans to start their own R&D up. Without the Wolverines the Clans as a whole may have stagnated for a few years before any real R&D got started up.
TRO:3057 isn't a complete history, remember its written in universe by Comstar adepts using the best information they have at the time so its easy for the writers to later retcon things and just say not all the info was available at the time.
Perhaps he thought they were getting to far ahead andmight start to dominate other Clans. Since they weren't in step with him, that would be dangerous....for Nikki.....
I don't think Nicky K was too worried about Mcevedy, she was one of his most ardent supporters initially, it wasn't until the Widowmaker Khan started wispering into his ear and he set up the watch to keep an eye on the Wolverines that she got suspicious of his behavior.
Even the 3057R says not everything is accurate as warship info is heavily guarded.
Even the 3057R says not everything is accurate as warship info is heavily guarded.
In all seriousness, I am working on a Minnesota Tribe regiment and want to fill it out with armor and air assets. Any suggestions as to what would fit and go with canon?
Who thinks Betrayal of Ideals will bring more Wolverines into the family?
It certainly brought a couple and a few more came out of the woodworks.
i haven't read it yet, though i've read some in depth summaries and reviews. i've always found the Tribe/Wolverines interesting, the novel and recent material amplified that.
enough that when i made my HBS battletech char, i headcanoned him as a secret agent of the Wolverines. and that Raju "Mastiff" Montgomery was his handler.
For me, the most interesting Wolverine story was "Darkness," by Randall Bills. It strongly hints at the Wolverines being the source of the Magistracy of Canopus' advanced medical/cybernetic technology, and having a special relationship with the Ebon Magistrate.
Granted, as part of BattleCorps' "Iron Writer" series, it's not officially canon because it was written in one hour at GenCon and not fact-checked...but since it was Randall "I determine what's canon" Bills' work, it's a good indication of at least where the Line Developer's head canon is on the subject.
The Wolverines are beyond the Rim fighting Bird Aliens in hordes of Locust knock off mechs. That is all.Trust me, whatever they are up to it is something cool.
Based on the glimpses of 3250 in the products framed as Loremaster reports to the ilKhan, I wouldn’t be surprised if the Wolverines/Minnesota Tribe eventually come out of hiding and form the core of the resistance to the Third League.
It would certainly match with their ethos of resistance to the philosophies of Nicholas Kerensky and his heirs.
Based on the blurbs we’ve gotten, 3250 tech is superior
I don’t think we’re ever getting there. It’s being used as a universal narrator that will provide a consistent viewpoint now that comstar is kaput
The Wolverines are beyond the Rim fighting Bird Aliens in hordes of Locust knock off mechs. That is all.
Trust me, whatever they are up to it is something cool.
They could be dead.
That's quite cold
Fully possible as well. But it makes for a bad story when having them out there as the boogieman works just as well. There is even a hint to that with a cave full of destroyed Wolverine Mechs and the WoB defending the site (or just destroying a stray expidition) with a Thera in one sourcebook.
Fully possible as well. But it makes for a bad story when having them out there as the boogieman works just as well. There is even a hint to that with a cave full of destroyed Wolverine Mechs and the WoB defending the site (or just destroying a stray expidition) with a Thera in one sourcebook.
Yes....but OTOH, SOMEONE out there seems to be using the Wolverines as boogiemen. And it isn't necessarily the Wolverines.
How many of the stories of the Wolverines and Minnesota Tribe, how many are false, how many are deliberate misinformation designed as a cover by one or more third parties?
The entire Wolverine story is a mess...a huge plot hook players and GMs can use but which offers several different directions, contradictory information, which can never live up to its promise if the truth is ever revealed. It'd please a handful of players and annoy the half who preferred another story.
I mean, look at the Minnesota Tribe. Were they Clan Wolverine? Refugees from the SLiE? Runaways from the Clans? Exiles of the Pentagon Powers? A scout fleet from the Clans? A hunting party seeking the Wolverines? An old SLDF unit returned for supplies? ComStar?
Everyone likes to think they are the Wolverines and maybe they are. Maybe they were just a buncha pirates who found a wreck and took the Mechs as trophies.
All of these theories have been pushed at some point. Some even have evidence or inference....there is speculation the Jenner IIC originated because the Tribe captured some and brought it back to the Cluster.
Right now, there is very little information about the Wolverines that can be treated as canon or correct. Anything you read may be true, may be false.
A great plot hook....but one that I doubt will ever be realised.
Are they dead?
Maybe
Did they keep running?
Maybe.
Are they the Minnesotas?
Maybe
Was that cave a Wolverine stash?
Maybe
Was it a WoB front?
Maybe.
Are the Wolverines associated with the Ebon Magiatrate?
Maybe
Did the MoC simply drag themselves up with a lot of hard work, good leadership and sensible planning?
Maybe.
I do not recall the source-book, but it shows the dates when the Minnesota Tribe hit the Combine. The last raid (Richmond) never made a lot of sense to me... because it happened half a year or more after their previous, why?
I can only hope they tell us what happened to them. Even if it's as simple as them finding a quiet planet and losing their heritage, dying off, or they jumped through a star and they are no more.
Yes....but OTOH, SOMEONE out there seems to be using the Wolverines as boogiemen. And it isn't necessarily the Wolverines.
How many of the stories of the Wolverines and Minnesota Tribe, how many are false, how many are deliberate misinformation designed as a cover by one or more third parties?
The entire Wolverine story is a mess...a huge plot hook players and GMs can use but which offers several different directions, contradictory information, which can never live up to its promise if the truth is ever revealed. It'd please a handful of players and annoy the half who preferred another story.
I mean, look at the Minnesota Tribe. Were they Clan Wolverine? Refugees from the SLiE? Runaways from the Clans? Exiles of the Pentagon Powers? A scout fleet from the Clans? A hunting party seeking the Wolverines? An old SLDF unit returned for supplies? ComStar?
Everyone likes to think they are the Wolverines and maybe they are. Maybe they were just a buncha pirates who found a wreck and took the Mechs as trophies.
All of these theories have been pushed at some point. Some even have evidence or inference....there is speculation the Jenner IIC originated because the Tribe captured some and brought it back to the Cluster.
Right now, there is very little information about the Wolverines that can be treated as canon or correct. Anything you read may be true, may be false.
A great plot hook....but one that I doubt will ever be realised.
Are they dead?
Maybe
Did they keep running?
Maybe.
Are they the Minnesotas?
Maybe
Was that cave a Wolverine stash?
Maybe
Was it a WoB front?
Maybe.
Are the Wolverines associated with the Ebon Magiatrate?
Maybe
Did the MoC simply drag themselves up with a lot of hard work, good leadership and sensible planning?
Maybe.
TPTB have said the Wolverines and Minnesota Tribe are one and the same. They also said they are not going to say what happened to them, so use them however you want.
Saying so out of canon is not the same thing AS canon. At best, it reflects current intent which may or may not be adhered to in actual canon. TPTB also stated that the RotS was going to be destroyed but they kept it around once it became popular.
Have you read Shattered Sphere? I don't think the RoTS has much time left as anything but a client state.
Although it’s not confirmed it is a good theory.
I mean he could have also been the troubleshooter that McEvedy decided to send to deal with the issue. This could also be a decent theory considering his record especially in light of the fight with the Wolves and his work in discovering the Warch.
Yes: Confirmed in Operation Klondike. Sarah McEvedy was the original Khan and Dwight Robertson was the original SaKhan.I mean the other founders. I saw on Sarna.net that they have the full names for the founding members of Clan Goliath Scorpions, so that is why I was wondering if there were names for the others.
What i have to say i told in a greater older Topic
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=11350.180 (https://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=11350.180) (last post)
I think the Wolverines should become a force who challange the entire Inner Sphere
with new Battlemech and other new Technologies
i mean not the bad guys i just mean opposide to the IllClan and all others
From where came the information that the Wolverines fight against this Bird Aliens ?
FASA used to say the Not Named were beyond the Rim fighting off the Universes absent aliens. And dincecwe got only one known alien species...
I always took that to mean not that they were fighting the Tetatae, but that they were fighting all the aliens we didn't see, and were the reason we would never have to worry about seeing them.
They're only gone until one side or the other is defeated or they join forces. Then they'll be back to take over. ;D
Yes but it would be much more satisfying if they came back without any fanfare or ‘newish’ technologies just SLDF+ tech, a couple of Galaxies with a military family like atmosphere, and just sucker punch some big bad guy in the face (like Malvina or the Home Clans) and be like ‘we’re here: deal with it. Nicky K was a psychopath. K? Thanks Bye well be over here chillin’.
I see an outside chance of the Wolverines playing some role in the 3250 setting. With the ilClan running the Third League, perhaps an outside force might serve as a catalyst for a new rebellion against ilClan dominion. (Sort of a "District 13 in the Hunger Games" situation.)
The Homeworld Clans would fit that bill just as well, and nobody would even be able to argue that they don't exist anymore.
- Herb
Honestly I like the idea of the Wolverines becoming the boogeymen of the Clans after the 3150's no matter which Clan takes Terra. Imagine if each Clan gets hit with terrorist attacks by both guerillas and Battlemechs all identifying themselves as the Wolverines. Destroying depots, conducting sabotage, assassinations. Something to drive every Clan crazy trying to track down and destroy.
Sort of like this one movie I enjoy...
Nobody? Have you met the internet? 8)
The Homeworld Clans would fit that bill just as well, and nobody would even be able to argue that they don't exist anymore.
- Herb
According to the fiction, the Wolverines were out-performing everyone else because they did not adhere to Nicholas's methods as much as everyone else. He decided to make an example of them because their success made him look ineffective.
I've made no secret of mine....McEvedy made a power grab. McEvedy failed. McEvedy ran.
I think if the story were good enough people would like it
They'd also be a bogeyman for the IS and Periphery because of the Minnesota Tribe's raids in the DC and all speculation about them over the centuries.
Some people will like it, but many - even if they like it - would still be disappointed.
More to the point, there isn't any story CGL can do that would justify the "buildup" people have. Whether they are dead an buried, fighting aliens, fleeing the Clan tryanny in a ratg tag fleet or whatever, I do not believe any story would be worth 30 years of buildup and mystery. Best to leave them AS a mystery. It is the same situation as aliens - there isn't anything the Wolverines could bring to the game or universe that an existing faction could not do better.
Speculation which looks to have been hijacked by the WoB as a cover, by Uncle Chandy to get the Clans involved in the Jihad and so on.
I think it's the build up more than the quality of the story that would disappoint people.
And I think it's not so much disappointment but more wondering, "Now what what?". Like finishing a long movie/TV/book or whatever series. You loved it but now that it's over you're not sure what to do. And unfortunately being the next Dread Pirate Roberts isn't an option so you're stuck until you find something else. :(
I think it'd take a really, really good story answer the mystery of what happened to all of them. I do like keeping what happened to the majority of the Wolverines a mystery but there's still the groups that split up or got lost. I think their stories could be told. They could probably be told in a way that would generate more questions than answers.
It'd still be fun to see the Wolverines fighting with or against the Tetatae though. ;D
There is no story that CGL can deliver that would justify thirty years of build up and mystery. The more hints and references they dropped, the more untouchable the Wolverines became.
CGL can always add in more mysteries. But the Wolverines was a good one.
The idea that the Wolverines split up is one of the issues with them. There weren't that many which escaped and they already knew wheer the Oasis worlds they needed for resupply were. What they needed was speed and distance. The only reasons to split the survivors would be to try and fool the Clans into thinking they were all dead. This would entail sacrificing most of the escapees and much of their supplies so a relatively handful had the chance to be overlooked - chance, becasue there was no guarantee the Clans would not continue the search. That would have had its own issues as the surving group would be unlikely to survive
I'm still wondering if the Tetatae could work as Genecaste.
I wouldn't say that most had to be sacrificed. I'm not sure any would need to be. But by splitting up it would keep the Clans from destroying them whole and increase the odds that some of them would survive.
Actually, splitting the fleet up is what saved some of the Wolverines and not all Wolverine ships were in the fleet. Kerensky also only split the fleet into two. One to protect the home worlds and the other to search for the Wolverines. It was not splitting them more that allowed them to overwhelm the Wolverine forces at Barbados If Kerensky had split his forces more the Wolverines might have won against whatever forces found them. As it were they still did a lot of damage.
And the Recon ships were to let the other ships know if it was safe to jump into a system. Unfortunately, they didn't get enough warning. Plus Franklin had given Trish conflicting orders or she might have been able to shift the odds. Regardless, whether it ended there or another planet once the main Wolverine force was destroyed Kerensky declared an end to things. The Annihilation was over.
The problem here is that a unified Wolverine fleet MIGHT have been able to stand against whatever forces were sent after them, but a divided Wolverien fleet coudl not hoep to do so. More, splitting the fleet would have meant each part would have fewer resources with which to survive and would be unlikely to survive on ist own even if they did escape the Clans.
The Wolverines only realistic hope of survival in the scenario we have was to stick together and run away as fast as they could.
If the Clans were able to get ahead of the Wolverine fleet, then that was sheer incompetence on the part of the Wolverines. They would have had a head start, were just as fast a Clan vessels, and would have no need to spread their forces thin for recon work or mapping.
And Kerensky declaring an end to the Trial was not something the Wolverine commanders would be counting on. If he went to the trouble of hunting them down, he probably would go to the trouble of making sure.
a Better idea is:
T omade a Book "Fieldmanual Clan Wolverine" wher the story of all Spliter Faction are be told with new secreds
(for new Questions to keep the Myth of the Suvivors of the Clan)
we read more of the Main Body the Minisota Tribe and ohters Spliter Factions.
The Main Body of the Tribe is Splinted again.
I’m ‘working’ on one. Course it’s gonna be an AU so it will end up in the fan forums eventually. It won’t have artwork or anything just lots of text so it will be terrible. Bunch of designs too, a TO&E, and probably a timeline of divergent stuff.
So what would you think Clan Wolverine- Minnesota Tribe foot infantry would be like?
So what would you think Clan Wolverine- Minnesota Tribe foot infantry would be like?
I think that's why they took the Kuritan prisoners with them. They also would have had Iron Wombs to help grow the population.
Trained wolverines.
The two glimpses we've seen of the Minnesota Tribe are from Interstellar Players 3 (Interstellar Expeditions), where we see an abandoned underground base emblazoned with Clan Wolverine logos, and with derelict BattleMechs half-buried in sediment, and in "Darkness," where a group using Clan expressions ("Well bargained and done.") provides the Magistracy of Canopus' Ebon Magistrate with advanced medical technology in exchange for intel about goings on in the Inner Sphere.
From those, it appears that the Minnesotans were able to retain the ability to make major engineering projects and to advance medical science. (It's implied that the Ebon Magistrate's cyborg upgrades came from that tech exchange - and the SLDF didn't have cyber-augment tech like that.) A later TRO mentions that the Ebon Magistrate must be operating a hidden shipyard somewhere. Given the ties between the Magistrate and a Clan-esque society in "Darkness," one might suspect the Minnesotans could have shipbuilding capabilities as well.
Which were reportedly political prisoners and probably with nothing to offer the skills a colony would need. You'd get numbers and genetic diversity...but probably few farmers and little equipment. Most of the survivors would probably die off unless they git really lucky and found a garden world.
As a colony, it might survive but only in a "devolved till it reached the point it could sustain itself" meaning little, if any industry, and a fairly primitive society that might be based on slaves...the Kuritans being the pregenitors of a Slave Caste.
But wheres the fun in the Wolverines dying off?
plus it is worth noting that the Periphery and Deep Periphery is rife with colonies of various technical capabilities. it wouldn't be hard to imagine the Wolverine refugee fleet finding some deep periphery colony and offering to help build up said colony's technical capability in exchange for a home.and add some diversity to that small colony's gene pool
Ok, while we don't have hard numbers... what did they supposed to have? As in jumpers, both combat and other.
TT
I think that third fleet went off on their own. If it had been destroyed the Clans would have recorded it.
Each Clan had about 50 JumpShips/WarShips after Klondike. By raiding the caches, and given estimates that they were carrying 2/3 of the Wolverine Clan (estimated at 200,000 in number), we're looking at roughly 100 JumpShips/WarShips.
The Wolverine ships described as participating in the battle at Barbados were:
SLS Badger – Vincent corvette
SLS Weasel – Whirlwind destroyer/carrier
SLS Michigan – Unknown class of cruiser – Probably Black Lion, since it was described as launching a “wave of massive anti-ship missiles.” Of the Star League-era cruisers, only the Black Lion has significant missile batteries, being able to launch ten (eight White Sharks, two Barracudas) against targets in its forward arc.
SLS Rickenbacker – Unknown class of WarShip
SLS Maverick – transport JumpShip – crippled when the Grand Fleet first arrived
SLS Zughoffer Weir – McKenna battleship
So, the main fleet had at least five WarShips, and probably dozens of JumpShips.
Before Barbados, the fleet split into four groups, with the largest resupplying at Barbados, and the other three serving as pickets. Trish Ebon's picket fleet had at least two ships - the SLS Bismarck and the SLS Saratoga. It was joined by another (presumably equally sized) picket fleet and the late-arriving SLS Yukon, crewed by Wolverine sibko survivors.
So, the surviving Wolverines had two Clusters of troops (Trish's estimate from the text) and at least five JumpShips/WarShips. The third picket fleet never rejoined the main body. It could have gone off on its own, or could have been found and stomped by the Grand Council fleet.
Granted, the Iron Writer stories were expressly non-canon because they were not fact checked. However, "Darkness" was Randall's entry, and since he's the line developer, I can at least take it as an indication of where his head canon is on the subject.
hmm.. it occurs to me that they wouldn't have to find an existing colony.. just know where various colony efforts and deep periphery SLDF bases had been, and scavenge. gotta figure a lot of colony efforts fail.. would be a ready source of both materials* (if a bit used) as well as likely additional manpower if some of the failed colonies couldn't leave.
*assuming here that a failed colony would abandon any equipment that wasn't economical to ship back when they left.
I was looking over the entry for the Minnesota Tribe on Sarna.net and noticed something that did not add up. The base found with the Minnesota Tribe "Rosetta Stone" was destroyed in 3095, supposedly by the Blakists. But this is 14 years post-jihad. It does not make sense that the Blakest would go out of their way to take out the base so long after the remnants of their organization were sent into hiding.
My theory on this subject is tortured and laborious, so strap in: :D
1) The Minnesota tribe hits Combine space, circumnavigates the Inner Sphere, stopping off to leave traces on planets along the way as they resupply and look for a new home. They find one just a bit coreward of McEvedy's Folly, and build a base there emblazoned with Wolverine sigils all over the place.
2) The Zughoffer Weir and two other Wolverine ships escape Barbados. At least the Zughoffer ends up encountering ComStar exploration ships, and they return with ComStar back to the Inner Sphere where they are kept under wraps as a ComStar state secret. Hidden on Mars? Hidden on a Hidden Five? Dunno. They become a hidden faction that has influence inside ComStar.
3) The Tribe makes covert contact with the Magistracy of Canopus and provides advanced tech in exchange for intel. Since Magistracy intel sucks, they guide the creation of a better intel gathering group - the ultra-secret Ebon Magistrate (no small coincidence that the Wolverine Watch was founded by Trish Ebon).
4) The Zughofferites try to warn ComStar about the other Clans - resulting in the "visions" of monstrous beasts menacing the Inner Sphere that reportedly drove the creation of the Explorer Corps and indirectly led to the Clan Invasion when the Outbound Light reached Huntress.
5) At some point, the Zughofferites and the Tribe found out about each other, and things turned bad. The Zughofferites found the Tribe's base and the Tribe was forced to flee - possibly into the Magistracy of Canopus. (Notably, there are no signs of fighting in the Tribe base, just abandoned equipment.) The Zughofferites assigned a force to monitor the Tribe's base to ensure that nobody else stumbled upon it and lived to tell the tale, because that trail could end up leading back to them.
The Zughofferite/Tribe conflict could explain why the Manei Domini paid such attention to operations in the Magistracy of Canopus, where both sides' cyborg agents battled each other in a shadow war sideshow to the main Jihad. Perhaps the Manei Domini vs. Ebon Magistrate conflict was really a proxy war between the Zughofferites and the Tribe.
The Zughofferites also offer an explanation for how the "Journal of the Blood" could be so wrong, but could also include a few key details from the Wolverine exodus that were actually correct, and that couldn't have been known except by someone that lived through it. It also explains the Primus' "visions" of emerald birds, six-legged bears, flaming horses, etc. Plus, it explains how the Zughoffer Weir appeared in Blakist colors during the Jihad. If the Zughofferites were embedded in ComStar (and joined the Word of Blake), they could have had access to Manei Domini gear. Thus, the group that wiped out the Interstellar Expeditions team on the Tribe baseworld in 3095 wasn't Manei Domini - it was the Zughofferites, standing watch over their cousins' last known whereabouts.
5) At some point, the Zughofferites and the Tribe found out about each other, and things turned bad. The Zughofferites found the Tribe's base and the Tribe was forced to flee - possibly into the Magistracy of Canopus. (Notably, there are no signs of fighting in the Tribe base, just abandoned equipment.) The Zughofferites assigned a force to monitor the Tribe's base to ensure that nobody else stumbled upon it and lived to tell the tale, because that trail could end up leading back to them.
It does not make sense that the Blakest would go out of their way to take out the base so long after the remnants of their orginization were sent into hiding.
True Natasha, but consider the possible proverbial bread crumb scenario... any of the pre-Invasion Homie clans could have followed it. And then what?
It’s possible that rather than having a standing guard force in the Tribe base system, they just make sure to infiltrate all the archaeology teams that are operating in the region, posing as dig gypsies. That way, they can try to steer searchers away from the Tribe base or call in a kill team if they can’t prevent the discovery.
As to why they didn’t obliterate it themselves? Dunno. Hoping the Tribe will come back, and planning to follow them to their new digs if they do? Searching it themselves for clues?
I think this whole line is why I can't buy the Wolverines were at the heart of the Blakists. I could see some members of the wolverines, perhaps even the Wier meeting Comstar, but becoming a force in the background does not track. And if they were, and were able to hide everything the the Blakists actually DID hide, why not just get rid off ALL evidence really early.
There are four things about former Wolverines like the Zugs/Blood being at the heart of the Blakist conspiracy that make it hard to accept fully.
I think it’s much more likely that Uncle Chandy uncovered a few of these very limited Wolverine/ComStar contact threads during his intelligence against the Blakists and had someone weave a bigger, fictional narrative involving the Blakists that would be threatening enough to the Clans to bring the Clans in on the side of the Houses and ComStar during the Jihad.
Ironically, the fact that Chandy and/or Stone targeted the Ghost Bears specifically with the Blood narrative is the one thing outside ComStar that does potentially point back at the existence of Wolverines/Blood inside ComStar/WoB. If the Blood’s records or some fraction thereof were not real, then how would Chandy/Stone know that, of all the Clans, the Ghost Bears were the one Clan guilty of letting Wolverines escape from the Homeworlds in the first place? The Ghost Bears weren’t saying and the other Clans didn’t know. Only the Wolverines/Blood would know.
So here is the question, which do you prefer, Wolverines pre-annihilation or Minnesota Tribe?
Is it just me or are they dropping to many Magistey connections lately. All the Ebon hints and McEvedy's Folly and such?
Darkness?
Is it just me or are they dropping to many Magistey connections lately. All the Ebon hints and McEvedy's Folly and such?
Of course, there's nothing really in the Ebon Magistrate that can't be gained from the Capellans.
Sure, but we don't know when they started using implants. That may have been a 3050's and 60's thing, rather than straight off in the 40's.
Except the Ebon Magistrate didn't appear and start gaining a reputation for exceptional skill and equipment until the 3040s, during which they still weren't on good speaking terms with the Capellans (what with the whole invasion of the Confederation and all).
Geographical proximity to both McEvedy's Folly (a known stopover point for the Minnesota Tribe) and the Wolverine base world (said to be a few parsecs coreward from McEvedy's Folly) also makes the Magistracy the realm most likely to have contact with the Tribe.
As would the ever typical SL era memory core or even salvaging a SL-era medical ship or finding a SL era lab, base, hospital, MASH unit or whatever. Or even, House Arano. Which, now that it is canon, would make a far more acceptable source than a conspiracy theory.
Except we see the mysterious "well bargained" guy explicitly handing over medical technology to an Ebon Magistrate operative with a mention that this is one in a long-running series of exchanges.
In a story that, right now, is 100% non-canon.
For all that some people want it to be canon - right now, it isn't. And likely never will be, at least in its current state. It would need to be rewritten, error checked and published
There's non-canon and there's NON-CANON. []/quote]
No - there is simply non-canon.
Darkness didn't appear as a canon product...therefore it is 100% non-canon. It may someday become canon but for now, it isn't. It is, at best, speculative. Even if you apply the broad strokes standards to the story - it remains non-canon because you cannot even begin to decide which parts were "broadly true" and which were total fabrications.
Darkness is non-canon and there is no point arguing story elements as if it were canon.
Likewise, given the status of IP3, that story at the start of IP3 can be taken with a brush of salt as well. Maybe it happened, maybe it happened "in broad strokes" or maybe it too was a total fabrication right up there with
Canon states only that the MoC is suspected of having a source of superior technology from beyond the Periphery.
Is that the Minnesota tribe? Unlikely. That they were not found in the aftermath of the search for the WoB suggests they are nowhere near the IS. Its not impossible CGL might take that route, but other explanations - including the usual "We found a SL Base - memory core - dropship - whatever" are much more likely. The MoC might even have started the rumours about a hidden source themselves.
or an Amaris base. lot of Amaris/Rimworlds built bases in the deep periphery in all directions. Amaris apparently devoted a fair bit of effort to building the things even before getting access to the Hegemony's resources. personally i suspect many of them were meant as boltholes should his plans to take over the hegemony fail before he could grab control. wouldn't be hard to believe that there would be a few with a helm core type archive added out there, or set up to be the nucleus of a new state with a large cache of gear and support infrastructure to build up an army.
I respect your position as a canon purist, and you are free to disregard "Darkness" completely.
I like to think of it as Randall's head canon, and with "Darkness" as context, many of the other hints about the Ebon Magistrate's unexpected prowess and the MoC's mysterious tech source fall into place rather neatly. Without "Darkness," they're still black box mysteries.
I understand your position.
I just prefer to take a more expansive view of how everything fits together, and rarely discard source material out of hand unless it's been explicitly disproven (wrong dates, for example - in which case I try to find a date that will let the events work in canon, such as with "The Pear" and "Top of the Scrap Heap"), has been identified as coming from an unreliable narrator or being propaganda in universe (the Black Pearl's suicide note, the Journal of the Blood, many of the canon rumors from Interstellar Players) or simply doesn't fit the established facts of the universe (Pirate Hunt, MechAssault, SNES MechWarrior).
If core canon stories come along and void the apocryphal works, I'm fine with chucking them from the discussion. (MW4: Black Knight killed off Ian Dresari. The FedCom Civil War sourcebook said "nuh-uh" and the MWDA pilot cards gave him an heir or two.) However, until such time as core canon kills off Darkness, I'll continue to view Ebon Magistrate references with it in mind.
And a quick note. The original mystery for the Magistracy in MW 1st edition says that the Magistracy has a "source of supplies for its mech units from "Somewhere beyond the Periphery."
So not necessarily tech.
You’re not wrong. You go by the official canon, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I just find the version of the universe that incorporates the apocrypha (from bio-Mechs to blue-skinned Capellan economics ministers to Jason Youngblood knowing about the Clans in 3028 to “well bargained” guy) richer and more satisfying, overall.
:o bio-Mechs? ??? Where are they?
We saw in ISP3 how certain worlds "beyond explored space" in the Canopian region are kept hidden.
The Maskirovka notes that the Ebon Magistrate may be giving their agents prosthetic enhancements. The fact that the Maskirovka is reporting this as news to the Chancellor implies that the Confederation did not give that tech to the Magistracy. Ergo, the tech was independently developed or came from another source.
The Maskirovka sees signs of Clan influence in the MIM's improvement, though they suspect Dragoon defectors.
The Word of Blake (which has the Zughoffer and its logs) is worried about something in the MIM.
The Maskirovka report doesn't mention signs of Clan influence in the MIM's improvement (I'm not even sure what that would entail), they just suggest possible Dragoon influence because of timing, but give no proof other than "Dragoons got Outreach in 3030, MIM started to show improvements in 3040+, so there must be a connection!"
The Magistracy is fluffed as having some of the best medtech since the first edition, so developing the myomer implant tech really isn't that out there, especially since they know it can be done. Or, since the MIM is effective, they certainly could've gotten a headstart from their allies without them knowing.
Yeah, but if that were the case, you'd expect to see other things. The Magistracy kept their medical training because the held tightly onto it while everything else slipped from their grasp. Sure, the average was 5th grade, but if you show signs of wanting to go into the medical field, you're pushed into actual higher learning.
If they had a source of technology, then you'd expect to see things like..water purifiers, or automated factories, or other improvements that would help prevent their backslide, rather than just "we'd like to perform better surgery."
I am really of two minds here. I would love to see a connection between the Canopians and the Wolverines, but somehow it seems like it would also be a let down. A few more hints of anything to do with the Wolverines would be nice.
The problem is that almost anything they do with the Wolverines would be a let down.
Remember that the MoC is run by women. They may have the majority of infantry be men, who are second class citizens. These men may not have beyond an elementary education so the manuals could be for them.
MedTech is the MoCs biggest export so the Centrellas likely have scholorships ensurinf that their best people can get into medical school or some kind of paramedic vocational school. I don't see them leaving that to lostech unless the MoC is truly stressed
Depends what the Tribe was doing since Barbados.
The Wolverines pioneered a number of advanced technologies post-KLONDIKE, including the prototype Clan ER PPC (the "gutbuster"), and might have continued to conduct research that would put them on par with the Clans or WoB in certain areas. Keep in mind, the Clans effectively stagnated, technologically, during the Golden Century, while the Tribe would have had roughly the same technical databases and two Clusters of practical field models for 'Mech technology to work from.
That said, all that's really known is that (per ISP3) they had the capability to build an underground base, and (per Iron Writer) had medtech that the Ebon Magistrate considered advanced.
Honestly they could have been the source of MoC supply of weapons and tech.
They could....but again, that they haven't been found by 3250 suggests strongly they are nowhere in the area.Like I was saying the secret backer, Niops Association, who exchanged tech for items well in short supply back at home. Now they aren't going to want orginally for who they are to be known, so it is a black program. But they have access to Star League data, can hand build it and maintain it.
And it is a far better story for Canopus players to have them drag themselves up. Why disrespect an existing player faction?
It's an interesting take but the idea that the MoC might have simply discovered a SL era base, managed to keep it secret, and simply put in the hard work and effort needed to decode its technological secrets is a far better story.
when did those come out?
Redemption and Malice was released last month to some Kickstarter backers, and a solution to the technical glitch was just found a few days ago, so the rest can access it.shoot, i never got copies of it.
shoot, i never got copies of it.
Any thoughts on what the Clave is?
Either way, I am really excited by this.
Me too!
Blaine "Buck" Pardoe
Ruling body. A conclave. Probably akin to Clan councils.He also used Clave in Mechwarrior: Dark Age #14: Target of Opportunity when Spirit Cat Galaxy Commander Kev Rosse stated, "I have called this Clave of my command to..." when he was talking to his Star Captains. Clave is capitalized here as well.
The Circles are pretty obviously a variation on circles of equals.
There are some interesting tidbits in the story, once you sift through the clunky dialogue.
You cheeky bugger. ;D
It was a wonderful story, Blaine. Thank you for writing!
Is this the Wolverines? "Perhaps...perhaps not..."
| Code | Source rating | Explanation |
| A | Reliable | No doubt of authenticity, trustworthiness or competency; has a history of complete reliability |
| B | Usually reliable | Minor doubt about authenticity, trustworthiness or competency; has a history of valid information most of the time |
| C | Fairly reliable | Doubt of authenticity, trustworthiness or competency, but has provided valid information in the past |
| D | Not usually reliable | Significant doubt about authenticity, trustworthiness or competency but has provided valid information in the past |
| E | Unreliable | Lacking in authenticity, trustworthiness and competency; history of invalid information |
| F | Cannot be judged | No basis exists |
| Code | Source rating | Explanation |
| 1 | Confirmed | Confirmed by other independent sources; logical in itself; consistent with other information on the subject |
| 2 | Probably true | Not confirmed; logical in itself; consistent with other information on the subject |
| 3 | Possibly true | Not confirmed; reasonably logical in itself; agrees with some other information on the subject |
| 4 | Doubtfully true | Not confirmed; possible but not logical; no other information on the subject |
| 5 | Improbable | Not confirmed; not logical in itself; contradicted by other information on the subject |
| 6 | Cannot be judged | No basis exists |
In that case, would the new book be a B1 maybe B2?
You guys are cute with your rating system!
Blaine
I would say B3 but the C - wow, that hurt.
Blaine "Buck" Pardoe
You guys are cute with your rating system!
Blaine
You guys are cute with your rating system!
Blaine
Honestly: I wouldn’t mind if they kept up smaller stories like that. However I’d LOVE a BoI style novel of where they are at now: of course everyone would. Hell I’d love a continuation of BoI from Trish Ebons perspective.I agree completely. I think short stories would be great, with maybe a PDF only product like the unit Spotlights, but an Ebon based story would be great.
I was able to download "Redemption and Malice" at least from my late KS Pledge. so spoilers:
I like the FrankenMechs… but now I want the stats for them as silly as that sounds. Of course I want the stats for the Pallas and Slither too..... Appreciate the fiction!
I think the last thing you want is me designing 'Mechs again.
Blaine "Buck" Pardoe
I would like to see more Tripod designs and if possible a SH QuadVee...
TT
SuperHeavy. Think more "Mobile Structure QuadVee"...Fortress Maximus style.
SuperHeavy. Think more "Mobile Structure QuadVee"...Fortress Maximus style.
I want to establish a tenuous and unlikely link between "Redemption and Malice" and the section in Shattered Fortress entitled "Mystery Raiders" on page 43. Both are set at the same time period and on nearby planets, involve a type of scavenging, and have an element of FrankenMechs and unmarked DropShips. Coincidence? Possibly. But food for thought.Pretty sure those "mystery raiders" are Kell Hounds. The raider thing is explained in the same sidebar as the Kell Hounds situation, and the flotilla descriptions are quite similar.
Did anyone thought of the scenario Pack bloodright in addition to redemption and malice? Maybe he is just an offspring of andrew hallis....
Other projects are in the queue.
Blaine "Buck" Pardoe
Did anyone thought of the scenario Pack bloodright in addition to redemption and malice? Maybe he is just an offspring of andrew hallis....I did not even know that book existed.
Honestly: I wouldn’t mind if they kept up smaller stories like that. However I’d LOVE a BoI style novel of where they are at now: of course everyone would. Hell I’d love a continuation of BoI from Trish Ebons perspective.
Annwn, lots of very good points but...
The prisoners from Kurita most likely weren't SL scientists or their families. Maybe a few, but not the main portion. That was 37-38 years after the Exodus and smack dab right between the 1st and 2nd SW. Chances are they were simple political prisoners with a few POWs that were never returned. Everything the Wolverines needed.
You see, they were just plain short on people. You need a pretty large number of people to have a viable colony without genetic issues (around 10k people if you don't restrict breeding). You are also going to need a lot of plain labor to start.
What I would do if I were in charge of the Wolverine Remnant is to first establish current info on the Inner Sphere. Once you have that current information, you list what is needed and make as few stops as possible. Once done, disappear, lick my Clan's wounds, and regain strength and figure out what we are going to do from there.
"Though it was inconceivable that the Tribe could have known about the large prison and slave camps on the planet, their ‘Mechs went straight for them. After easily overpowering the guards, they were soon freeing the many thousands of prisoners. Several DropShips then landed in the midst of the prison complexes to load up and transport all the freed prisoners offworld before the Kurita ‘Mechs could arrive on the scene. Though no one realized it for quite awhile, the liberation of the prisoners and Unproductives on Richmond was the last time the Minnesota Tribe was seen in the Inner Sphere."
" The raiders immediately made for the large prison and slave camps on the planet, established after the fall of the Star League. Despite the prison’s isolated location, the Minnesotans knew exactly where to strike. They freed thousands of prisoners, who were loaded onto several landing DropShips and taken offworld before the Kuritan garrison force could arrive"
"The second encounter with the tribe occurred on Trondheim on 17 December, a prefecture capital and base of the Twentieth Rasalhague Regulars. The rationale for attacking the world was unclear—the tribe took some supplies but not as much as they had from Svelvik; the ISF postulated the unit was looking for information"
"The final encounter with the Minnesota Tribe took place on Richmond on 9 March 2827 and was notable for the raiders’ very clear purpose. After landing, the tribe quickly brushed the garrison forces aside and moved to liberate the world’s massive slave and prison camps. They showed little interest in other objectives, and so the Combine assumed they were the reason for the Richmond assault. However, as many of the camps were new—some newly home to political prisoners from Jinjiro’s post–First War pogroms—it seemed likely the tribe had learned of them on a previous raid, most likely Svelvik. Dozens of DropShips landed to extract thousands of prisoners, soon boosting into orbit and rejoining the transports. "
"While most of the Wolverine front-line troops had been accounted for on Circe, many of the second-line warriors appeared to be missing..." and "Similarly, there were fewer civilians than expected."
It looks like they were looking for something - seeking specific information. Why did they go to this specific planet and seek out these specific people? Why the specific mention of the camps being - "established after the fall of the Star League"? We know there was a large bit of technological decline starting around this time - if the Combine had a program of detaining or kidnapping as many Star League scientists as it could right after the Star League fell and the Wolverines went and raided the secret complex they were toiling at with their families...it would fit rather neatly. The Second Succession War part indicates only some of the camps & prisoners were political - and those were newer. What were the older parts for?
hmm not able to get the book.
Question for the Wolverines. If the Wolverines had survived, would they have adopted protomechs?