Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan

[Mendrugo]

As would the ever typical SL era memory core or even salvaging a SL-era medical ship or finding a SL era lab, base, hospital, MASH unit or whatever. Or even, House Arano. Which, now that it is canon, would make a far more acceptable source than a conspiracy theory.

Except we see the mysterious "well bargained" guy explicitly handing over medical technology to an Ebon Magistrate operative with a mention that this is one in a long-running series of exchanges.  We have no stories (not even apocryphal ones) of the MoC discovering any of the other items you mentioned.  I don't recall Arano medtech being noted as anything out of the ordinary. 

Plus, why would the Aranos be so committed to secrecy, and why would they lack intel on the Inner Sphere?  (Granted, they hid from the ComStar cartographic service pretty well... :D)

[Talen5000]

Except we see the mysterious "well bargained" guy explicitly handing over medical technology to an Ebon Magistrate operative with a mention that this is one in a long-running series of exchanges.

In a story that, right now, is 100% non-canon.

For all that some people want it to be canon - right now, it isn't. And likely never will be, at least in its current state. It would need to be rewritten, error checked and published

[Mendrugo]

In a story that, right now, is 100% non-canon.

For all that some people want it to be canon - right now, it isn't. And likely never will be, at least in its current state. It would need to be rewritten, error checked and published

There's non-canon and there's NON-CANON. 

Both The Crescent Hawk's Revenge and MechAssault 2 are non-canon, but CHR fits fairly well into established continuity, whereas MA2 posits that Jerome Blake created magical computer cores hundreds of years before he was born to power robo-mega scorpions and rule the universe, and the Jihad was simply the Blakists trying to find and unite those cores until a Dragoon and a space pirate, working together, disabled the evil Blakist leader with a successful attack on Terra. 

To me, "Darkness" is more in the CHR zone of "non-canon" source material, rather than the utter insanity that we saw in MA2 or some of the ISP stories of hidden Blakist bases in hyperspace or ancient alien hypersquids plotting to seize control of people's minds during jumps.

And, looking at the games, we have a statement from then line-developer Herb Beas that the non-canon games can be considered to have happened in the BattleTech universe in broad strokes, though the details of the real story may be different than what a player experienced in their individual playthrough, as long as none of the events therein are contradicted by official canon material.  I take the Iron Writer stuff in the same vein.

[Talen5000]

There's non-canon and there's NON-CANON.  []/quote]

No - there is simply non-canon.

Darkness didn't appear as a canon product...therefore it is 100% non-canon. It may someday become canon  but for now, it isn't. It is, at best, speculative. Even if you apply the broad strokes standards to the story - it remains non-canon because you cannot even begin to decide which parts were "broadly true" and which were total fabrications.

Darkness is non-canon and there is no point arguing story elements as if it were canon.
Likewise, given the status of IP3, that story at the start of IP3 can be taken with a brush of salt as well. Maybe it happened, maybe it happened "in broad strokes" or maybe it too was a total fabrication right up there with

Canon states only that the MoC is suspected of having a source of superior technology from beyond the Periphery.

Is that the Minnesota tribe? Unlikely. That they were not found in the aftermath of the search for the WoB suggests they are nowhere near the IS. Its not impossible CGL might take that route, but other explanations - including the usual "We found a SL Base - memory core - dropship - whatever" are much more likely. The MoC might even have started the rumours about a hidden source themselves.

[Mendrugo]

I respect your position as a canon purist, and you are free to disregard "Darkness" completely. 

I like to think of it as Randall's head canon, and with "Darkness" as context, many of the other hints about the Ebon Magistrate's unexpected prowess and the MoC's mysterious tech source fall into place rather neatly.  Without "Darkness," they're still black box mysteries.

[glitterboy2098]

or an Amaris base. lot of Amaris/Rimworlds built bases in the deep periphery in all directions. Amaris apparently devoted a fair bit of effort to building the things even before getting access to the Hegemony's resources. personally i suspect many of them were meant as boltholes should his plans to take over the hegemony fail before he could grab control. wouldn't be hard to believe that there would be a few with a helm core type archive added out there, or set up to be the nucleus of a new state with a large cache of gear and support infrastructure to build up an army.

some of the ones that Explorer Corps/IE found were fairly elaborate, like outpost 27 just coreward of the Aquila rift, in what was the RWR's deep periphery region. their facilities farther from the RWR have less canon info (implied ot be just small bases) but the fact that they'd even got a base all the way out near the orion nebula on the far far spinward side of the IS means these bases could pop up anywhere

[Mendrugo]

or an Amaris base. lot of Amaris/Rimworlds built bases in the deep periphery in all directions. Amaris apparently devoted a fair bit of effort to building the things even before getting access to the Hegemony's resources. personally i suspect many of them were meant as boltholes should his plans to take over the hegemony fail before he could grab control. wouldn't be hard to believe that there would be a few with a helm core type archive added out there, or set up to be the nucleus of a new state with a large cache of gear and support infrastructure to build up an army.

I grant you that there were oodles of RWR fallback bases out there, given what the SLDF found on Gutara V in "Last Stop."  However, the one they found there was just chock full of military supplies.  Amaris didn't foresee a technological decline, so he mostly wanted pro-RWR insurgents to have weapons.  I'd imagine the plan was to use the guns to capture the factories, then use the factories to make more guns to support the insurgency.

The map at the Gutara V facility showed bases mostly in the Inner Sphere.  My guess is that Amaris provided resources to the Taurian Liberation Front and other pro-independence secret armies in the territorial states, but let them use those resources to build their own bases, rather than having RWR engineers build bases on the other side of the Inner Sphere.  We see one such TLF base on Maldive in the Stackpole HBS-game tie-in story - a hidden underground bunker with enough supplies to support a single lance of 'Mechs, but no tech archive.

The curator of the Nagayan Mountain storage depot on Helm was somewhat unique in that he did predict the descent into barbarism, and intentionally stashed the comprehensive data core inside as a legacy for the future.

[Talen5000]

I respect your position as a canon purist, and you are free to disregard "Darkness" completely. 

I like to think of it as Randall's head canon, and with "Darkness" as context, many of the other hints about the Ebon Magistrate's unexpected prowess and the MoC's mysterious tech source fall into place rather neatly.  Without "Darkness," they're still black box mysteries.

I wouldn't say I'm a canon purist but again..."head canon"

You cannot be sure he wrote that story the way he did because it was non canon and so he was free to indulge, crafting a story that would never be canon and therefore free to explore.

In the same way, you cannot take the out of game hints that the Wolverines ate the MT as canon because until it is written down as anything other than in game  rumour,it is subject to change.

And yes...they are mysteries and until Darkness is canonised, it really can't be considered in a discussion of canon events, or even possible events.

"IF Darkness were canon" is suited for discussion, but it shouldn't really be used to support or counter arguments arising from the canon BTU.

So what if the Ebon Magistrate is proficient? That doesn't need the Minnesota Tribe...it requires hard work.
Strange new tech? A hidden research base even ComStsr didn't know about or the discovery of SL era base or ship


There is nothing in the mysteries or rumours that require the MT to be around in order to be explained. No reason to go hunting for conspiracy theories.

Darkness may someday be canonised.
Today...it isn't and even creative interpretation of the story and background can't really save it. Either the events happened as they are depicted, or they didn't and the MT link only holds if they did.

And even if it is canonised, it doesn't need to be the Wolverines.
It could, as one example,  be IntelSer, swapping meaningless technical information in exchange for a treasure trove of data. That fits in better with the use of the "Well bargained" phrase

[Mendrugo]

I understand your position.

I just prefer to take a more expansive view of how everything fits together, and rarely discard source material out of hand unless it's been explicitly disproven (wrong dates, for example - in which case I try to find a date that will let the events work in canon, such as with "The Pear" and "Top of the Scrap Heap"), has been identified as coming from an unreliable narrator or being propaganda in universe (the Black Pearl's suicide note, the Journal of the Blood, many of the canon rumors from Interstellar Players) or simply doesn't fit the established facts of the universe (Pirate Hunt, MechAssault, SNES MechWarrior). 

If core canon stories come along and void the apocryphal works, I'm fine with chucking them from the discussion.  (MW4: Black Knight killed off Ian Dresari.  The FedCom Civil War sourcebook said "nuh-uh" and the MWDA pilot cards gave him an heir or two.)  However, until such time as core canon kills off Darkness, I'll continue to view Ebon Magistrate references with it in mind.

[Talen5000]

I understand your position.

I just prefer to take a more expansive view of how everything fits together, and rarely discard source material out of hand unless it's been explicitly disproven (wrong dates, for example - in which case I try to find a date that will let the events work in canon, such as with "The Pear" and "Top of the Scrap Heap"), has been identified as coming from an unreliable narrator or being propaganda in universe (the Black Pearl's suicide note, the Journal of the Blood, many of the canon rumors from Interstellar Players) or simply doesn't fit the established facts of the universe (Pirate Hunt, MechAssault, SNES MechWarrior). 

If core canon stories come along and void the apocryphal works, I'm fine with chucking them from the discussion.  (MW4: Black Knight killed off Ian Dresari.  The FedCom Civil War sourcebook said "nuh-uh" and the MWDA pilot cards gave him an heir or two.)  However, until such time as core canon kills off Darkness, I'll continue to view Ebon Magistrate references with it in mind.

The canon doesn't need to kill off Darkness because, right now, Darkness doesn't exist.

It's one thing to come up with creative interpretations, but it is another to canonise non-canon material, or reference it in relation to the canon storyline.

Darkness, as far as the in universe fate of the MT or Wolverines is concerned, doesn't exist and never happened.

When you tried to counter my alternate solutions to canon events, you tried to refute it with a non-canonical event.

We did NOT see "the mysterious "well bargained" guy explicitly handing over medical technology to an Ebon Magistrate operative with a mention that this is one in a long-running series of exchanges" because, as far as canon is concerned,  that guy doesn't exist and the exchange never happened.

Your question on why Arano would need intel on the IS again pre-supposes that the events in Darkness happened....when, as far as canon is concerned, they did not. Arano could have recovered a SL era core and handed it to the MoC in exchange for resources. That Darkness mentions intel on the IS would be a valid point...if Darkness was canon. As I said, you could just as easily argue that the guy was IntelSer

I'm not above "creative interpretation" of canon myself but if the events in Darkness didn't happen as described, then the entire link to the MT, already tenuous, disappears entirely. There is no room for creative interpretation in this regard because the MT connection is based upon one phrase - which is already a stretch to link into the MT

Darkness, or a rewrite, may at some point become canon. But right now it isn't and even the speculation that it shows Randalls thinking is itself speculative

Darkness is not source material
Darkness is not canon

[Mendrugo]

You’re not wrong.  You go by the official canon, and there is nothing wrong with that. 

I just find the version of the universe that incorporates the apocrypha (from bio-Mechs to blue-skinned Capellan economics ministers to Jason Youngblood knowing about the Clans in 3028 to “well bargained” guy) richer and more satisfying, overall.

[truetanker]

Brent know and he's not telling...

TT

[Maelwys]

And a quick note. The original mystery for the Magistracy in MW 1st edition says that the Magistracy has a "source of supplies for its mech units from "Somewhere beyond the Periphery."

So not necessarily tech.

[Mendrugo]

And a quick note. The original mystery for the Magistracy in MW 1st edition says that the Magistracy has a "source of supplies for its mech units from "Somewhere beyond the Periphery."

So not necessarily tech.

True, but it goes beyond supplies for 'Mech regiments. 

A Maskirovka report (Covert Ops p. 88) attributes the MIM's improvement to "a vague reference to extremely resource-rich worlds located "beyond explored space" that Magestrix Kyalla first alluded to during her secret meetings with the Anduriens in the 3020s.  No concrete evidence of these worlds' whereabouts, or the nature of their resources, has been uncovered.  Regardless of the exact nature of the discovery, the Canopians seem to have valuable resources that somehow remain hidden from bandits and ComStar explorers alike."  It also notes that the MIM's improvement took place at the end of the Fourth Succession War, suggesting that Wolfnet defectors may have opted to establish roots in a Periphery realm as a means of watching the rim for possible Clan incursions, resulting in Wolfnet operatives joining the Canopians MIM.  The article further notes that "The Word of Blake ROM has been desperately trying to infiltrate the agency as well, a development that suggests the Blakists are worried about something here."

We saw in ISP3 how certain worlds "beyond explored space" in the Canopian region are kept hidden.
The Maskirovka notes that the Ebon Magistrate may be giving their agents prosthetic enhancements.  The fact that the Maskirovka is reporting this as news to the Chancellor implies that the Confederation did not give that tech to the Magistracy.  Ergo, the tech was independently developed or came from another source.
The Maskirovka sees signs of Clan influence in the MIM's improvement, though they suspect Dragoon defectors.
The Word of Blake (which has the Zughoffer and its logs) is worried about something in the MIM.

[RifleMech]

You’re not wrong.  You go by the official canon, and there is nothing wrong with that. 

I just find the version of the universe that incorporates the apocrypha (from bio-Mechs to blue-skinned Capellan economics ministers to Jason Youngblood knowing about the Clans in 3028 to “well bargained” guy) richer and more satisfying, overall.

 :o bio-Mechs? ???  Where are they?

[Mendrugo]

 :o bio-Mechs? ???  Where are they?

The origins are a bit of a mystery, but the story appeared to show that the Draconis Combine Admiralty, in the build-up to the First Succession War, had tried to combine bionics and megafauna to create a 'Mech sized creature that could be trained to follow commands, and physically subdue a BattleMech with a giant 'Mech taser built into the tail.  A Lyran WarShip dropped off a scout lance to investigate, and they and the DCA LAM garrison killed each other off, leaving only one Lyran standing.  His Crusader was subsequently engaged by the BioMech prototype, and managed to destroy it by tricking it into stabbing its 'Mech taser tail into a generator.

With the destruction of the prototype and the research station, the concept became LosTech (though the Combine did do more experiments at making monsters, with the toorima).

[Maelwys]

Ah, I was looking for that quote. For some odd reason I thought it was in Brush Wars. HB:MPS and Periphery 1st Edition also mention resources, I just wanted to point out that one of the original quotes mentions supplies rather than "technology."

We saw in ISP3 how certain worlds "beyond explored space" in the Canopian region are kept hidden.
The Maskirovka notes that the Ebon Magistrate may be giving their agents prosthetic enhancements.  The fact that the Maskirovka is reporting this as news to the Chancellor implies that the Confederation did not give that tech to the Magistracy.  Ergo, the tech was independently developed or came from another source.
The Maskirovka sees signs of Clan influence in the MIM's improvement, though they suspect Dragoon defectors.
The Word of Blake (which has the Zughoffer and its logs) is worried about something in the MIM.

The Maskirovka report doesn't mention signs of Clan influence in the MIM's improvement (I'm not even sure what that would entail), they just suggest possible Dragoon influence because of timing, but give no proof other than "Dragoons got Outreach in 3030, MIM started to show improvements in 3040+, so there must be a connection!"

The Magistracy is fluffed as having some of the best medtech since the first edition, so developing the myomer implant tech really isn't that out there, especially since they know it can be done. Or, since the MIM is effective, they certainly could've gotten a headstart from their allies without them knowing.

[Mendrugo]

The Maskirovka report doesn't mention signs of Clan influence in the MIM's improvement (I'm not even sure what that would entail), they just suggest possible Dragoon influence because of timing, but give no proof other than "Dragoons got Outreach in 3030, MIM started to show improvements in 3040+, so there must be a connection!"

Granted, but it suits my purposes to suggest that since they attributed the increase in quality to training by agents with Watch origins, the Maskirovka might have been partially correct, but wrong about which Watch did the training.

[Mendrugo]

The Magistracy is fluffed as having some of the best medtech since the first edition, so developing the myomer implant tech really isn't that out there, especially since they know it can be done. Or, since the MIM is effective, they certainly could've gotten a headstart from their allies without them knowing.

But the question is how they maintained such good medtech when the rest of their educational system had fallen apart.  (Note that, circa 3025, their training manuals for soldiers were written at the 5th grade level and were expected to have to be revised downwards.) 

The suggestion from Randall's Iron Writer piece was that the MoC got advanced medtech from "bargained well" guy.  While that particular exchange took place after 3040 (when the Ebon Magistrate was created), the dialogue implies these exchanges have been going on for a long time, so the MoC's medical skill may have been a result of the "bargained well" guy's offerings.

[AlphaMirage]

Remember that the MoC is run by women.  They may have the majority of infantry be men, who are second class citizens.  These men may not have beyond an elementary education so the manuals could be for them. 

MedTech is the MoCs biggest export so the Centrellas likely have scholorships ensuring that their best people can get into medical school or some kind of paramedic vocational school.  I don't see them leaving that to lostech unless the MoC is truly stressed

[Maelwys]

Yeah, but if that were the case, you'd expect to see other things. The Magistracy kept their medical training because the held tightly onto it while everything else slipped from their grasp. Sure, the average was 5th grade, but if you show signs of wanting to go into the medical field, you're pushed into actual higher learning.

If they had a source of technology, then you'd expect to see things like..water purifiers, or automated factories, or other improvements that would help prevent their backslide, rather than just "we'd like to perform better surgery."

[glitterboy2098]

Yeah, but if that were the case, you'd expect to see other things. The Magistracy kept their medical training because the held tightly onto it while everything else slipped from their grasp. Sure, the average was 5th grade, but if you show signs of wanting to go into the medical field, you're pushed into actual higher learning.

If they had a source of technology, then you'd expect to see things like..water purifiers, or automated factories, or other improvements that would help prevent their backslide, rather than just "we'd like to perform better surgery."

agreed. if you look around the world today you'll find a number of place where the average education level isn't all that high but they have pretty good technical knowledge, whether medical, engineering, electronics, or whatever. and that is because the leaders of those places have put a priority on getting and maintaining those capabilities, and let general education slide. after all, not all that many people go on to become doctors or engineers or whatever. so keeping universities to teach those few people, and funding programs to ensure that are accessible to those with the intelligence, talent, and drive to use them is a lot easier than trying to boost the education levels across the entire state.

the source of mech supplies i think might not require a secret wolverine colony somewhere. after all, as i pointed out there are a fair number of colonies and old bases out in the deep periphery. plundering those old sites, and working trade agreements with the colonies for military supplies and munitions (in exchange for civilian goods and medical help) would be a way to expand access industry without having to divert resources to build it themselves. old RWR and SLDF bases would help explain all the Dictator class dropships they get by the 3070's.. the Dictator class was the standard mech carrier during the reunification war, during and after which the SLDF built a lot of bases in the periphery to fight and then occupy the periphery realms. many of which they abandoned during the Amaris coup. we know they left a lot of the older gear behind in caches when they left to fight in the hegemony, and then in the exodus those units that were still watching the periphery just dropped everything and left. so finding obsolete dropships and warehouses of supplies would not be unbeleivable.. the trick is of course, knowing where to look.

i think this is why the HBS game went with the idea of the Argo having a map of SLDF bases in it.. since the map was current up to 3 years before the Amaris Coup, the MOC (which helped fund the rebuilding of the Argo and would certainly have kept a copy of the map for themselves) would be able to send expeditions to investigate and plunder those old bases regularly.
since the House Arano book includes the MOC backing, the find of the Argo, and the raid on the SLDF base (where Kamea's Atlas II came from) from the game, it is likely that some version of the map made it into Canon as well.


this doesn't preclude the idea of a secret wolverine colony somewhere, or that they migght have connection to the MOC, but it does illustrate that you don't have to have one to explain the MOC.

[Drewbacca]

I am really of two minds here. I would love to see a connection between the Canopians and the Wolverines, but somehow it seems like it would also be a let down. A few more hints of anything to do with the Wolverines would be nice.

[Jaim Magnus]

I am really of two minds here. I would love to see a connection between the Canopians and the Wolverines, but somehow it seems like it would also be a let down. A few more hints of anything to do with the Wolverines would be nice.

The problem is that almost anything they do with the Wolverines would be a let down.

[Maelwys]

I'd be disappointed if the Wolverines were the main reason for the Magistracy's success, since it would mean the Magistracy didn't get it done on their own.

And I've hit the point of "I really don't care" when more Wolverine hints show up. Its been poked and prodded for so long and so much its gone from "Oh, that's interesting," to "You've teased enough, resolve it already."

[Talen5000]

The problem is that almost anything they do with the Wolverines would be a let down.

Which is one reason I believe that - at least as the game stands - the Wolverine connection, or their fate, will never be revealed.

Everyone has their own little pet theory, and everyone of those is backed up by some degree of evidence. It all depends on how much weight you place on which bit of evidence and how you feel the various pieces are linked and connected.

The Wolverines might be the Minnesota Tribe.
Or the Minnesota Tribe could have been the Clan pursuit force setting up station to try and pick off any survivors fleeing to the IS
Or the Tribe might be a rogue SL unit or a unit that got lost during the Exodus, such as the 295th
The Wolverines might be dead, or they might be nomads, still running or they might have been sucked into the maelstrom and are now part of VOR

The Wolverine mystery being solved would, I think, please few and disappoint many.

[Mendrugo]

Remember that the MoC is run by women.  They may have the majority of infantry be men, who are second class citizens.  These men may not have beyond an elementary education so the manuals could be for them. 

MedTech is the MoCs biggest export so the Centrellas likely have scholorships ensurinf that their best people can get into medical school or some kind of paramedic vocational school.  I don't see them leaving that to lostech unless the MoC is truly stressed

That's supportable.  Most likely, Randall's indended takeaway was that the medtech in that particular cube enabled the Ebon Magistrate to compete with the Manei Domini on a level playing field.

[Maelwys]

Of course, that's a big iffy bit right there. Why would they have the medtech needed to allow the EM to compete with the MD?

The majority of the upgraded implants are relatively new, designed by the WoB/CC/MC. The Wolverines won't have access to that stuff.

[Mendrugo]

Depends what the Tribe was doing since Barbados. 

The Wolverines pioneered a number of advanced technologies post-KLONDIKE, including the prototype Clan ER PPC (the "gutbuster"), and might have continued to conduct research that would put them on par with the Clans or WoB in certain areas.  Keep in mind, the Clans effectively stagnated, technologically, during the Golden Century, while the Tribe would have had roughly the same technical databases and two Clusters of practical field models for 'Mech technology to work from.

That said, all that's really known is that (per ISP3) they had the capability to build an underground base, and (per Iron Writer) had medtech that the Ebon Magistrate considered advanced.

[glitterboy2098]

even building the base could be in question, given that they may well have occupied and reactivated an SLDF base from before the Amaris Coup, and just updated the emblems around the base.

and again, the iron writer story is not canon, and it isn't clear what was being traded or for why in the stotry, or that the group doing the trading was the wolverines.