Author Topic: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan  (Read 61976 times)

Drewbacca

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #180 on: 22 December 2019, 07:27:39 »
Talen5000, I think you missed the point of the conclusion on Barbados. Nicolas had his sacrifice and outed the Widomakers as being schemers trying to gain power for themselves through intrigue rather than martial power (something that was hinted at about them in the early sourcebooks). The reaction from the other clan leaders present made it clear they were not happy with being played. Nicolas declared the annihilation complete, end of story. Any scragglers found would be finished like sweeping up after closing time.

Talen5000

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #181 on: 22 December 2019, 09:30:07 »
Actually, splitting the fleet up is what saved some of the Wolverines and not all Wolverine ships were in the fleet. Kerensky also only split the fleet into two. One to protect the home worlds and the other to search for the Wolverines. It was not splitting them more that allowed them to overwhelm the Wolverine forces at Barbados If Kerensky had split his forces more the Wolverines might have won against whatever forces found them. As it were they still did a lot of damage.

The problem here is that a unified Wolverine fleet MIGHT have been able to stand against whatever forces were sent after them, but a divided Wolverien fleet coudl not hoep to do so. More, splitting the fleet would have meant each part would have fewer resources with which to survive and would be unlikely to survive on ist own even if they did escape the Clans.

The Wolverines only realistic hope of survival in the scenario we have was to stick together and run away as fast as they could.

Quote
And the Recon ships were to let the other ships know if it was safe to jump into a system. Unfortunately, they didn't get enough warning. Plus Franklin had given Trish conflicting orders or she might have been able to shift the odds. Regardless, whether it ended there or another planet once the main Wolverine force was destroyed Kerensky declared an end to things. The Annihilation was over.

If the Clans were able to get ahead of the Wolverine fleet, then that was sheer incompetence on the part of the Wolverines. They would have had a head start, were just as fast a Clan vessels, and would have no need to spread their forces thin for recon work or mapping.
And Kerensky declaring an end to the Trial was not something the Wolverine commanders would be counting on. If he went to the trouble of hunting them down, he probably would go to the trouble of making sure.
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Drewbacca

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #182 on: 22 December 2019, 13:22:04 »
Did you read Betrayal of Ideals? The Wolverines let the other clans get in front of them. The scouts were sent out to make sure the others were continuing down the Exodus Road. They got caught at Barbados because Nick figured out that the Wolverines might be behind them.

Had Nick not figured that out, they would have been able to resupply the whole fleet and make a run for it.

RifleMech

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #183 on: 23 December 2019, 11:51:59 »
The problem here is that a unified Wolverine fleet MIGHT have been able to stand against whatever forces were sent after them, but a divided Wolverien fleet coudl not hoep to do so. More, splitting the fleet would have meant each part would have fewer resources with which to survive and would be unlikely to survive on ist own even if they did escape the Clans.

The Wolverines only realistic hope of survival in the scenario we have was to stick together and run away as fast as they could.

Then again, by staying together they be putting all their eggs in one basket. They couldn't know how many ships would find them.


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If the Clans were able to get ahead of the Wolverine fleet, then that was sheer incompetence on the part of the Wolverines. They would have had a head start, were just as fast a Clan vessels, and would have no need to spread their forces thin for recon work or mapping.

Actually, that was their plan. Let Kerensky look in front while they hid behind him. If they went first, Kerensky would have chased them all the way back. By following they could let Kerensky get far away and go anywhere they wanted. Unfortunately, they decided to follow the Exodus Road and not a straight shot back to the IS.

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And Kerensky declaring an end to the Trial was not something the Wolverine commanders would be counting on. If he went to the trouble of hunting them down, he probably would go to the trouble of making sure.

Which is why they let Kerensky go first. He was chasing them, yet they were behind him.

Doy

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #184 on: 05 January 2020, 21:53:10 »
...a lot Stuff to read  :D (thank you all who post)

i don't agree with Talen5000 let the Wolverines rot in insignificance as if they were wiped out
No ist no good idea.

a Better idea is:
T omade a Book "Fieldmanual Clan Wolverine" wher the story of all Spliter Faction are be told with new secreds
(for new Questions to keep the Myth of the Suvivors of the Clan)
we read more of the Main Body the Minisota Tribe and ohters Spliter Factions.
The Main Body of the Tribe is Splinted again.

Some Major faction who worked with WoB leave the I. S. downward. They reestablisch a new Empire with new Tech and a Fast Programm to rearm them self in short time.
With WoB Mechs (to keep the WoB Mechs Pruduct in future) and Mana Domini Drones plus a faster Eugenics for Truborn.
The Leaders of this Faction are filled with bitterness of the Past and fear. Both the bitterness and the Fear lead them to a great hate of the Inner Sphere and all Clans.
This Faction grew so big over many many jears to be a thread for the Third Star Leauge from the Illclan.
The Battles agains the Aliens make them stronger, but they know the Clans would never stop hunting them they where Never be Free without destroying all Houses and Clans.
The Inner Sphere will burn in a War for Honor, Money and Survival, a war never seen again since the war with Aramis.

i think with the interesting iCllan Story  and a coming time bejond this is a lot with the Wolverins posible we should wish to get
And outside a lot very good writers far bejond my poor text i am sure they cane made a loot cool Stuff if they want and get a chance.

It is up to us Fans to keep them support



RifleMech

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #185 on: 06 January 2020, 15:18:05 »
a Better idea is:
T omade a Book "Fieldmanual Clan Wolverine" wher the story of all Spliter Faction are be told with new secreds
(for new Questions to keep the Myth of the Suvivors of the Clan)
we read more of the Main Body the Minisota Tribe and ohters Spliter Factions.
The Main Body of the Tribe is Splinted again.


I would love a Fieldmanual Clan Wolverine!  :smitten: Awesome idea!  :thumbsup: :beer:


Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #186 on: 06 January 2020, 17:33:55 »
I’m ‘working’ on one. Course it’s gonna be an AU so it will end up in the fan forums eventually. It won’t have artwork or anything just lots of text so it will be terrible. Bunch of designs too, a TO&E, and probably a timeline of divergent stuff.

RifleMech

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #187 on: 06 January 2020, 18:12:04 »
I’m ‘working’ on one. Course it’s gonna be an AU so it will end up in the fan forums eventually. It won’t have artwork or anything just lots of text so it will be terrible. Bunch of designs too, a TO&E, and probably a timeline of divergent stuff.

Sounds cool :) I'll look forward to it.  :thumbsup:

Doy

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #188 on: 19 January 2020, 14:42:20 »
it should not be a problem to find her some talented painter who help you with cool arts  :thumbsup:

Drewbacca

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #189 on: 24 February 2020, 17:33:54 »
So what would you think Clan Wolverine- Minnesota Tribe foot infantry would be like?

Empyrus

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #190 on: 24 February 2020, 18:03:19 »
Trained wolverines.

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #191 on: 24 February 2020, 21:22:55 »
So what would you think Clan Wolverine- Minnesota Tribe foot infantry would be like?

You mean stat/ organization wise? I would say it looks like the SLDF.

You mean color/ paint scheme wise? I would say it looks like the SLDF.

When the Minnesota tribe hit the Dracs, they were using SLDF colors and tactics. After that, well, personally I like to think they went their own way.

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Talen5000

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #192 on: 25 February 2020, 06:36:56 »
So what would you think Clan Wolverine- Minnesota Tribe foot infantry would be like?

Non-existent.

TBH, I don't think Clan Wolverine exists any more. Even if you take BoI as full canon, there simply aren't enough left to form a viable colony, or maintain a decent industrial and skill base and much of their fleet, resources and  personnel would have been removed before the remnants escaped.

Of course, that is "reality" talking but even if they were around, then there would be little or nothing above conventional infantry.

If you want to know about organisation of such units...then you have a choice between realism, standard SLDF (1 platoon = 4x7 man squads) or the Clan standard (5x5 man squads). All are equally likely depending on several factors.

« Last Edit: 25 February 2020, 19:58:10 by Talen5000 »
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RifleMech

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #193 on: 25 February 2020, 14:54:18 »
I think that's why they took the Kuritan prisoners with them. They also would have had Iron Wombs to help grow the population.

Presuming the Minnesota Tribe were the Wolverines, and that they did manage to set up a colony some where, I'd imagine it be a mix of SLDF, Clan, and Kuritan society.

Talen5000

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #194 on: 25 February 2020, 20:05:33 »
I think that's why they took the Kuritan prisoners with them. They also would have had Iron Wombs to help grow the population.

Which were reportedly political prisoners and probably with nothing to offer the skills a colony would need. You'd get numbers and genetic diversity...but probably few farmers and little equipment. Most of the survivors would probably die off unless they git really lucky and found a garden world.

As a colony, it might survive but only in a "devolved till it reached the point it could sustain itself" meaning little, if any industry, and a fairly primitive society that might be based on slaves...the Kuritans being the pregenitors of a Slave Caste.

But wheres the fun in the Wolverines dying off?


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truetanker

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #195 on: 25 February 2020, 20:58:03 »
Trained wolverines.

That would be the K9 Infantry...

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Mendrugo

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #196 on: 25 February 2020, 21:38:55 »
The two glimpses we've seen of the Minnesota Tribe are from Interstellar Players 3 (Interstellar Expeditions), where we see an abandoned underground base emblazoned with Clan Wolverine logos, and with derelict BattleMechs half-buried in sediment, and in "Darkness," where a group using Clan expressions ("Well bargained and done.") provides the Magistracy of Canopus' Ebon Magistrate with advanced medical technology in exchange for intel about goings on in the Inner Sphere. 

From those, it appears that the Minnesotans were able to retain the ability to make major engineering projects and to advance medical science.  (It's implied that the Ebon Magistrate's cyborg upgrades came from that tech exchange - and the SLDF didn't have cyber-augment tech like that.)  A later TRO mentions that the Ebon Magistrate must be operating a hidden shipyard somewhere.  Given the ties between the Magistrate and a Clan-esque society in "Darkness," one might suspect the Minnesotans could have shipbuilding capabilities as well.
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Talen5000

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #197 on: 25 February 2020, 22:33:49 »
The two glimpses we've seen of the Minnesota Tribe are from Interstellar Players 3 (Interstellar Expeditions), where we see an abandoned underground base emblazoned with Clan Wolverine logos, and with derelict BattleMechs half-buried in sediment, and in "Darkness," where a group using Clan expressions ("Well bargained and done.") provides the Magistracy of Canopus' Ebon Magistrate with advanced medical technology in exchange for intel about goings on in the Inner Sphere. 

From those, it appears that the Minnesotans were able to retain the ability to make major engineering projects and to advance medical science.  (It's implied that the Ebon Magistrate's cyborg upgrades came from that tech exchange - and the SLDF didn't have cyber-augment tech like that.)  A later TRO mentions that the Ebon Magistrate must be operating a hidden shipyard somewhere.  Given the ties between the Magistrate and a Clan-esque society in "Darkness," one might suspect the Minnesotans could have shipbuilding capabilities as well.

Maybe....but that the group used "Well bargained and done" should really mean "look at us trying to make you think we're someone else".

Given the timing, involved, the Wolverines really should not be using Clan idioms.

It could indeed go that way, but if the Wolverines were that close to the IS, then they'd likely have been found and, by 3250, they haven't been.
Similarly, whether or not that base was Wolverine in origin is a little unclear.  The Minnesota Tribe and Wolverines seem to have become the goto guys for any mysterious occurrence and such acts haven't been helped by several parties...WoB and Uncle Chandy included...apparently seeing fit to use them for their own ends, to the point of laying down false trails or evidence.

At this stage, I would suspect any evidence from in or around the IS to be possibly tainted and of questionable value.

Maybe CGL will continue with the hints, or maybe they'll take it in another direction. But, I still think the Wolverine question will never be answered. Realism would dictate they died but in a game universe, reality might not be much fun.
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RifleMech

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #198 on: 26 February 2020, 15:51:40 »
Which were reportedly political prisoners and probably with nothing to offer the skills a colony would need. You'd get numbers and genetic diversity...but probably few farmers and little equipment. Most of the survivors would probably die off unless they git really lucky and found a garden world.

As a colony, it might survive but only in a "devolved till it reached the point it could sustain itself" meaning little, if any industry, and a fairly primitive society that might be based on slaves...the Kuritans being the pregenitors of a Slave Caste.

But wheres the fun in the Wolverines dying off?

Other than being political prisoners we don't know their backgrounds. There could be farmers who disagreed about what crops to grow or how much to give over to the military. There could be all kinds of occupations represented among the prisoners. We also don't know what kind of equipment was taken. I would think that if they're going stop and pick up people that they'd also pick up supplies and equipment.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #199 on: 26 February 2020, 18:50:16 »
plus it is worth noting that the Periphery and Deep Periphery is rife with colonies of various technical capabilities. it wouldn't be hard to imagine the Wolverine refugee fleet finding some deep periphery colony and offering to help build up said colony's technical capability in exchange for a home.

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #200 on: 26 February 2020, 18:54:23 »
plus it is worth noting that the Periphery and Deep Periphery is rife with colonies of various technical capabilities. it wouldn't be hard to imagine the Wolverine refugee fleet finding some deep periphery colony and offering to help build up said colony's technical capability in exchange for a home.
and add some diversity to that small colony's gene pool
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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #201 on: 26 February 2020, 20:47:08 »
Ok, while we don't have hard numbers... what did they supposed to have? As in jumpers, both combat and other.

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RifleMech

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #202 on: 27 February 2020, 03:43:36 »
I don't think we know other than old SLDF Mechs with cooling suits for the mech warriors. I would also imagine armor and fighters.

I would think they're try to bring as much farming and construction type equipment as possible to build a colony with along with iron wombs and a DNA Bank so that they can quickly rebuild their numbers and increase genetic diversity. I would also think that they'd try to bring a small factory or more that could be retooled to build parts and new equipment along with plans for everything.

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #203 on: 27 February 2020, 04:10:42 »
Ok, while we don't have hard numbers... what did they supposed to have? As in jumpers, both combat and other.

TT

Each Clan had about 50 JumpShips/WarShips after Klondike.  By raiding the caches, and given estimates that they were carrying 2/3 of the Wolverine Clan (estimated at 200,000 in number), we're looking at roughly 100 JumpShips/WarShips. 

The Wolverine ships described as participating in the battle at Barbados were:

SLS Badger – Vincent corvette
SLS Weasel – Whirlwind destroyer/carrier
SLS Michigan – Unknown class of cruiser – Probably Black Lion, since it was described as launching a “wave of massive anti-ship missiles.”  Of the Star League-era cruisers, only the Black Lion has significant missile batteries, being able to launch ten (eight White Sharks, two Barracudas) against targets in its forward arc.
SLS Rickenbacker – Unknown class of WarShip
SLS Maverick – transport JumpShip – crippled when the Grand Fleet first arrived
SLS Zughoffer Weir – McKenna battleship

So, the main fleet had at least five WarShips, and probably dozens of JumpShips.

Before Barbados, the fleet split into four groups, with the largest resupplying at Barbados, and the other three serving as pickets.  Trish Ebon's picket fleet had at least two ships - the SLS Bismarck and the SLS Saratoga.  It was joined by another (presumably equally sized) picket fleet and the late-arriving SLS Yukon, crewed by Wolverine sibko survivors. 

So, the surviving Wolverines had two Clusters of troops (Trish's estimate from the text) and at least five JumpShips/WarShips.  The third picket fleet never rejoined the main body.  It could have gone off on its own, or could have been found and stomped by the Grand Council fleet.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

RifleMech

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #204 on: 27 February 2020, 04:48:55 »
I think that third fleet went off on their own. If it had been destroyed the Clans would have recorded it.

Mendrugo

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #205 on: 27 February 2020, 06:26:06 »
I think that third fleet went off on their own. If it had been destroyed the Clans would have recorded it.

The Clans didn't record anything about the Not Named Clan.  No Clan history mentions Barbados.  Nicholas Kerensky wiped the historical record clean and rewrote it to suit his personal narrative.

In actuality, the missing third picket fleet seems to have settled not too far from Barbados, since explorers report that somebody keeps coming back to the graves there and putting down fresh flowers.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #206 on: 27 February 2020, 14:32:15 »
Each Clan had about 50 JumpShips/WarShips after Klondike.  By raiding the caches, and given estimates that they were carrying 2/3 of the Wolverine Clan (estimated at 200,000 in number), we're looking at roughly 100 JumpShips/WarShips. 

The Wolverine ships described as participating in the battle at Barbados were:

SLS Badger – Vincent corvette
SLS Weasel – Whirlwind destroyer/carrier
SLS Michigan – Unknown class of cruiser – Probably Black Lion, since it was described as launching a “wave of massive anti-ship missiles.”  Of the Star League-era cruisers, only the Black Lion has significant missile batteries, being able to launch ten (eight White Sharks, two Barracudas) against targets in its forward arc.
SLS Rickenbacker – Unknown class of WarShip
SLS Maverick – transport JumpShip – crippled when the Grand Fleet first arrived
SLS Zughoffer Weir – McKenna battleship

So, the main fleet had at least five WarShips, and probably dozens of JumpShips.

Before Barbados, the fleet split into four groups, with the largest resupplying at Barbados, and the other three serving as pickets.  Trish Ebon's picket fleet had at least two ships - the SLS Bismarck and the SLS Saratoga.  It was joined by another (presumably equally sized) picket fleet and the late-arriving SLS Yukon, crewed by Wolverine sibko survivors. 

So, the surviving Wolverines had two Clusters of troops (Trish's estimate from the text) and at least five JumpShips/WarShips.  The third picket fleet never rejoined the main body.  It could have gone off on its own, or could have been found and stomped by the Grand Council fleet.

assuming a fairly even distribution of the civilian populace across the non-warships of the escape fleet (not a given admittedly) the surviving ships would have about 2000 people per jumpship, for 10,000 civilians in the survivor fleet. plus whatever military crews and warriors to be found in the warships and military dropships. call it maybe 15,000 people?

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #207 on: 27 February 2020, 23:35:09 »
I concur with your estimate.

By my best guess, they had 200,000 people to start with, and about 130,000 made it out with the fleet on about 100 ships.  No basis for knowing what the WarShip/JumpShip ratio was, but let's assume 20 WarShips and 80 JumpShips, for argument's sake.  If they were using Clan formations, then each picket fleet was probably a Naval Star - 5-6 ships.  With two picket fleets recombining and being joined by the Yukon, that gives the surviving fleet 11 - 13 ships. 

With two Clusters of ground forces aboard, and assuming an even distribution (on average) per ship (which isn't the case, since a destroyer packs far fewer people than a Potemkin), we can guesstimate 10% were aboard the two picket fleets, making the surviving Wolverine population about 13,000 - 15,000.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #208 on: 28 February 2020, 01:02:35 »
population wise that's more than enough for a viable colony. the question becomes how much they had in the way of infrastructure supplies.. basic mining gear. machine tools. etc. the tools you use the build the tools that'll build the factories. which would govern their ability to establish a functional technological society in less than several centuries.

Mendrugo

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Re: Brian Cache home of the 331st and the Not-Named-Clan
« Reply #209 on: 28 February 2020, 01:14:06 »
"Darkness" goes a long way towards suggesting they established a clandestine trading relationship with the Magistracy of Canopus.  As far back as MechWarrior 1st Edition, the MoC was said to have access to a secret source of technology from beyond the Periphery. 
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

 

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