Author Topic: MotW: Champion  (Read 4089 times)

JadeHellbringer

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MotW: Champion
« on: 13 August 2024, 10:47:05 »

We tend to take fast heavies for granted these days, in this era of wild technology and capability. We got a taste of that tech with TRO:2750, but it really was the Clan invasion era that gave us our first giant leap forward in that regard- and showed us that a fast heavy really was a viable combat unit, not just a curiosity. Mad Cats, Thors, etc. were a revelation- Mechs with the firepower we had previously associated with assault Mechs that were moving at speeds a medium Mech would find comfortable. That's no small feat, people- it wasn't just an expansion of capabilities, it was a whole new genre of Mech that came about.

But even prior to this, there were older fast heavy designs, that had slipped under the radar a little. The Ostroc and Ostsol were both rare but quick chassis, the SLDF fielded the oddball Lancelot in reasonable numbers, and of course the famed DCMS Dragon became synonymous with House Kurita over the centuries. Hidden amongst these choices (and others, of course) was a strange SLDF machine intended to be a quick-moving close-combat menace, looking for all the world like a half-converted LAM, yet not having jump jets . Of all the Battlemechs fielded by the Star League, the CHP-series Champion was certainly... one of them. Let's give a closer look to this strange duck with its standard model (and first seen in real-world time), the CHP-1N, brought to you by the good folks at Bergan Industries.


Champions are, as noted before, fairly quick for their size- a 300-series engine propels the 60-ton machine at a respectable 86kph (5/8 in our parlance), but as noted before as well, a Mech that looks like it's a jet fighter with legs- even with big jet exhaust ports on its back- lacks jump jets. This has bothered the author for the better part of thirty years, and isn't likely to stop any time soon. Even without jumping, however, this ground speed allows the swift-footed Champion to quickly close on opponents to unleash its weaponry, for all the positive and negative that comes with that plan of action. note that this is a standard engine, not XL (a new tech in the same book that the CHP debuted in, TRO:2750), which means it is HEAVY- a Champion pours a good third of its weight into that powerplant, which... it's not a great design choice, but the only options were to go with an XL engine (and the inherent flaws within), or slow to 4/6 and be just another standard-speed heavy. The engine makes the Champion what it is, good or bad, but it definitely uses up an eye-popping amount of mass. Contained within the engine as well are ten standard heat sinks- no new freezer tech to be found here. This can result in a bit of a problem, though not as bad as many competitors.

We find more standard materials in the internal structure of the Champion, but the new ferro-fibrous armor makes one of its first appearances in real-world time on the machine, That means we get more armor coverage per ton compared to standard plating, and that's good! The problem is that with the engine and primary weapon eating up so much of the Champion's mass, we had to skimp somewhere, and that newfangled plating is it- a fairly paltry eight tons isn't going to win a lot of awards, and in fact isn't a great deal better than the famously-thin Rifleman and Jagermech. Those famous machines have the advantage of being able to hang back from the fighting at least, limiting the amount of return fire- not here. A Mech that mounts mostly short-ranged weaponry is being asked to dash into the thick of the fighting with a surprisingly thin shell, and it's a wonder anyone survived those death-rides. Being that the SLDF was deploying things like this in company-sized groups, I suppose the plan was to lose five and run the enemy off the field with the remaining seven, but in later eras it's a concerning layout.

We used an enormous amount of weight- nineteen tons- on that massive engine, and the smart thing to do at this point is to use lower-weight but powerful weapons like medium lasers and SRMs to make for a powerful punch, while not using up too much weight on a big, clumsy weapon like an autocannon. And the Champion is, in this regard, a product of the same military that produced the Magi, Sentinel, and other 'hits', going with the big dumb option. However, we do at least make a passing effort at being interesting, with the Champion being one of the first units to deploy the new Lubalin LB-10X autocannon (parked in the right torso). For those who may not be as familiar with this marvel as veteran players, this gives a Champion pilot the ability to fire slug rounds (10 points to a location) like a normal AC/10, or fire a barrage of shotgun-like pellets (ten 1-point hits on the cluster table) to pepper a target with, giving excellent flexibility to the Mech. It would be a great choice... if not for the engine already eating up so much weight. Between the gun and engine we used 40 tons of a 60-ton machine- no wonder the armor sucks! A two-ton ammo bay allows for carriage of both ammo types, and is plenty for most combat operations.

Backing the autocannon come the weapons the machine should have focused on in the first place- a pair of medium lasers are parked in the left torso, opposite the autocannon. There's no reason to go into detail here- you know them and love them, and they make an excellent short-range option to boost your damage output, though the single heat sinks do mean you'll need to be mindful of the heat gauge. Two small lasers are parked under the cockpit in the center torso, giving a little added boost at knife-fighting ranges where the Mech may struggle to brawl (more on that shortly). One can't help but wish for a third medium in place of these, but we don't always get what we want in life. Finally, a handy SRM-6 with an Artemis computer gives a powerful shotgun blast from the left torso with the lasers, with a ton of ammo feeding it- another classic that needs no introduction, but which oddly does mirror the autocannon's capability to pepper a target with small hits to find weak spots... reinforcing that perhaps the LB-10X, despite being such a great weapon, wasn't really needed here.

So we have a Mech that wants to run up in your face, spraying autocannon shells as it rapidly advances, then in close switches the lasers and missiles to full blast. But we don't have armor for that job, and we have the odd layout of the Mech coming into play as well- there's no hands or lower-arm actuators here (nor anything in those arms anyway), so punching isn't particularly easy despite the arms being free to do exactly that- a Champion sould fire every gun it has and still throw two punches, if it weren't so lousy at the attempt. It feels like there's an idea here, and it got lost in a series of bad ideas- the engine, again, is a necessary evil, but losing that cannon would have allowed for a much more focused design, and even allowed for better heat dissipation via more heat sinks- or better ones, if one desired.


Well, they did desire. Our list of variants starts with simple field upgrade, the CHP-1N2. Nothing changes here other than swapping out the heat sinks for double-strength models, and instantly the Mech is vastly improved- not good, but much better. We don't have any heat woes at all anymore- we can even take some inferno gel and be okay. Bergan never actually authorized this upgrade, but if you have the chance to field one over a standard Champion, you do it. It still isn't a great Mech, but it's a hell of a lot better.

The author's opinion on the 'Royal' variants is one of irritation- special variants for the elite of the elite, while the standard SLDF gets issued what was oftentimes hot garbage designs, and often the Royal model doesn't bear any resemblance to the standard model to begin with. Perhaps no unit exemplifies this sour mindset more than the CHP-1Nb2, which is all but unrecognizable from the 1N we talked about before. This thing strips out all of the Champion's weaponry, crams on the double heat sinks of the 1N2, then crams on a PPC and a Gauss rifle, turning the close-combat Champion into a quick sniper. To the surprise of the author, this was accomplished without a switch to an XL engine (I had to actually look up the record sheet again to confirm, and even then do some math to see if I was missing something). It's a good Mech, don't get me wrong- the thin armor remains, but as a sniper no one really cares, and it hits HARD at long ranges- but it has so little in common with its original design that I struggle to see why the SLDF would even do this.

Along the same lines, the 1Nb was a later version (never mind that it came after the 1Nb2?) that swapped the PPC for an ER PPC when that weapon came available. Not much really changes other than the increased range, it still is heat-reasonable despite the new gun, fights at long ranges, etc.- all the things you love and hate are back. Again, the author acknowledges that this is a pretty good Mech if used carefully, but just can't fathom why Champions were modified in this way- or at the very least, so few of them.

The fall of the League and start of the Succession Wars weren't kind to top-tier tech, and dumb' versions of many SLDF stalwarts were eventually fielded in varying numbers. The Champion's thin skin meant not many were around as the Succession Wars dragged on, but we see Champions struggle on with lower-grade tech in the CHP-2N. The SRM loses its computer, the autocannon has to become a standard model- luckily those changes cancel each other out, the heavier gun using the extra weight left over by the Artemis leaving. Losing the LB isn't fun, but this is reasonable so far. The drop from ferro to standard plate though makes an already-fragile heavy even more worrying in protection, and still forces it to get into shorter ranges to use its weapons. There's better options for your Mechwarrior out there, even if it means dropping a few tons- there's no excuse to field this in favor of, say, a bog-standard Wolverine.


The Champion was rare enough in the armies of the Great Houses to have missed the first round of upgrades as the Helm core technologies made its way out into the field- presumably some 2Ns got upgraded, either back to 1N standard or one-off field kits- but it was Comstar that gave us our next step forward as they prepared to fight the Clans on Tukayyid. The 'Clanbuster' upgrades were a mixed bag, with some working pretty well (Black Knight) and others being all kinds of baffling (King Crab). The Champion 3N is a case of good news and bad news. For the first time, an XL engine makes an appearance (with these being fast upgrades to get ready for the fight, swapping this in must have been quite the endeavor!). The enormous drop in weight though gave the Mech gobs of new space to play with, and new vulnerabilities that it didn't need. The armor is... not upgraded despite the vulnerable new engine, so that's great, thanks for that. We did however switch to double heat sinks, and added two standard large lasers to the Champion, out in the previously-empty arms. This is... well, a thing. We now have two large lasers and an LB-10X at reasonable ranges, with heat sinks to handle that salvo on the run for no heat, and in past years that might have looked pretty great, but against Clan opponents it's just not enough- that thin armor is glaring here. it's a neat idea, and dropping some of the short-range stuff to boost the plating might have really helped make this thing work (hi, small lasers), but as it is it's a very easily-killed machine that is intended to go into a fight against Mad Cats and Ryokens.

We have to move forward a decade before we get our next Champion, as the fight against the Smoke Jaguars comes to a close and the FedCom halves start really eyeballing each other for the inevitable. While we don't have a great deal of info on the background, it's clearly a Comstar/Word of Blake machine, and strips out everything from the 3N again to start over. And you know what? They got it right on this one. Each arm boasts a pair of ER medium lasers, giving a respectable punch at reasonable ranges to start with, while utilizing low weight (as the author wanted to do in the first place, you'll recall!). The LBX is gone, replaced to the author's dismay with an Ultra AC/10, a weapon that provides a hefty punch, but loses the scattershot utility that makes the LBX so handy- a disappointing choice on an otherwise good Battlemech.  Replacing the SRM is an iNarc launcher, giving the Champion all kinds of dirty tricks to play with in the right hands (Haywire pods are a personal favorite), and a C3i computer ties it into a network, allowing the machine to provide spotting and targeting info to its mates. As Champions go, this is a beast- still a little thin-skinned, but far more capable than ever before.

We take a quick programming note at this point to note that we do not have any Jihad or later variants of the Champion, which suggests (in the author's opinion and nothing more) that the losses by the Word and Comstar in the Jihad may have wiped out the Champion as a design- a couple of oddballs may still exist, but the Jihad firestorms and the scrapping of Mechs as the Republic era dawned may finally have ended this thing. But... we have a couple more things to discuss.

The first is a simple upgrade from Force Commander Pasi Irin of the 1st Free World Legionnairies, which appears to be a simple change to a 1N. The SRM-6 and Artemis go away in favor of two Streak SRM-2s (for on-average the same firepower per-turn), and another ton of armor spread out on the Mech. It's... honestly a simple swap that makes the Mech much better, and I'll salute Irin for making lemonade here- there's more to wish to see done, but this worked better than one would have expected.


And then we have the Clans. As they often did with the SLDF gear they brought on the Exodus, the Champion was the recipient of an extensive upgrade to Clan specs, to be used in sohlama and other second-line units (or, if you're the Blood Spirits, wherever you can cram one in, we're not picky). A Clan XL engine was a must, freeing up weight like Comstar did, but without being quite as eye-poppingly vulnerable to losing a side torso. With the newfound weight savings, the Clans (we don't really know which one was behind it) bumped the laser battery to two medium pulse lasers in place of the old mediums, an ER medium added to each arm, small pulse lasers replacing the old small lasers, the SRM becoming a Clan model (keeping the Artemis but dropping weight), the LBX getting a similar Clan swap, double heat sinks... we're missing something here. Where's the rest of the weight gone to? Did they... could it be... do we finally have JUMP JETS on a Mech that looks like a fighter jet? Leave it to the Clans to fix everything! 5/8/5 is your new Champion-C speed curve. It's also got better armor, thanks to a little added tonnage and more efficient Clan ferro. This is.... still flawed, but not nearly as much as before, and honestly is a great option for a Clan garrison force to rely on. If an Inner Sphere force gets their hands on one, it's going to be a godsend for them.

So. Champion. It's overall not a great Mech, but it- wait, there's what?

You have to be ****** kidding me. Seriously?


OK. Well, sooooo... there's an LAM. It's more of a joke than anything really, but it deserves mention briefly. The CHP-1X1 was an experimental program to produce a Champion LAM, despite being larger than rules really allow. Dropping weaponry down to three medium lasers and the SRM (keeping the Artemis), the Mech becomes a 5/8/5 mover, but with the ability to transform into an AirMech (15/23). The prototype suffered major structural problems due to its weight, and was decidedly sluggish in the air, neither of which were considered positive, and after a number of tests the machine was cancelled. The TRO entry notes that the prototypes were stored on New Dallas, and one can only hope that they've been buried under rubble and never see the light of day.


So... that's the Champion all set. Underwhelming overall, but an interesting idea- one that just doesn't quite work due to some poor design choices. It's not useless- they work well as part of a team with other Mechs of its speed, particularly if it has long-range cover. The author found that they pair surprisingly well with the Dragon, which if one ignores the art looks like what you'd get if you wanted to make a long-range oriented Champion, really. What do YOU think, though? How would you use them, modify them, etc.?

]NOTE: Minor edits to spelling and such made- whole article was done on a bluetooth keyboard, so errors due to signal and author eating paint chips as a child are inevitable.]
« Last Edit: 13 August 2024, 17:22:32 by JadeHellbringer »
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17thRecon

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #1 on: 13 August 2024, 15:15:08 »
Great write up, as usual. A very weird mech since its first appearance, and I’m glad that I’m not the only one that thought it looked like a mech stuck in “guardian” mode. Hell, it would’ve made more sense to have this made as the LAM rather than the Urban Mech, but that’s a discussion for another day/thread.

Right on though that most configurations want it to be a fast closer, but the lack of armor means it’s most likely getting shot up on the way in before it can bring its full damage potential to bear.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #2 on: 13 August 2024, 16:48:08 »
Nice Write up,   JadeHellbringer!

I've always thought the mech was interesting.  Weird shape mech, that could run around using streamline features of a plane.

The LAM thing was funny, I do wonder though like perhaps the Scorpion LAM project, that Champion could end up being resurrected, with partial wings instead being able fly like dodo always wanted to.   



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JadeHellbringer

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #3 on: 13 August 2024, 16:54:50 »
Nice Write up,   JadeHellbringer!

I've always thought the mech was interesting.  Weird shape mech, that could run around using streamline features of a plane.

The LAM thing was funny, I do wonder though like perhaps the Scorpion LAM project, that Champion could end up being resurrected, with partial wings instead being able fly like dodo always wanted to.

Honestly, I didn't even consider a partial-wing angle, but that's an intriguing idea. Brew it up in the Fan Design area, I'm curious what people come up with on that front. Very good idea!
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glitterboy2098

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #4 on: 13 August 2024, 17:17:15 »
the SLDF does seem to have preferred AC's on a lot of its stuff. i feel like the -1N could have benefited from just using a PPC and rolling the saved 6 tons into more armor and maybe a few extra ML's and SHS. but i guess at that point it would be too similar to the Ostroc?

the C version having an XL was a surprise, but then i noticed the intro date. during the golden century, meaning that the Champion C was being used as a frontline mech against other clan-refitted SLDF mechs, the first of the new build IIC's, and then the first omnis. so it was something that the clans wouldn't have minded spending more resources on.

though i feel like we should have gotten a "C 2" that kept the SLDF engine and just refit the armor and guns, to reflect the kinds of things that the invasion era clans might have done to champions pulled out of the brian chaches.
« Last Edit: 13 August 2024, 17:22:48 by glitterboy2098 »

Wrangler

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #5 on: 13 August 2024, 17:19:27 »
I'm not much of a designer, but I did the thing.
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17thRecon

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #6 on: 13 August 2024, 19:05:41 »
Also appreciate the art. I don’t think I’d ever seen that many pictures of the Champion. Particularly the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th and 6th image you posted.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #7 on: 13 August 2024, 20:19:20 »
Champion is another one of those Heavies with the 60 ton curse of what to do with that weight. Like the Dragon, I can see the Champion as something meant to move with lighter, fast machines like the Wolverine, Griffin and Shadow Hawk.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #8 on: 13 August 2024, 21:51:48 »
The Champion C is still in use with Clan Hell's Horses. 
The Champion isn't a bad team player if used with other fast cavalry units like Ostrocs, Wolverines, etc. I found them to work well in Level IIs.

What the mech really needs is a light engine.  Add some more armor, DHS, upgrade the SRM-6 to a Streak, and add another medium laser.  That would give you a decent brawler.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #9 on: 14 August 2024, 00:23:47 »
The Champion... is a mech that I frequently forget exists.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #10 on: 14 August 2024, 00:41:50 »
I'm torn between the 1N2, the 1Nb, & the C as to which is my "favorite".

The combo of 300 rated engine w/ AC & SRMs was not ideal.

The AC is solid option but then doesn't need SRMs

Or if you used a PPC you could keep the SRMs but as with the unique model, Streaks would have been a better choice.

Finally SHS on a mech with that many guns was just a bad idea, which is why I love the simplicity of the 1N2.

I'm intrigued at the idea of a Partial Wing version, LOL. 
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #11 on: 14 August 2024, 01:42:10 »
I remember this mech somewhat fondly from MW3, which was my introduction to the series. However it fell well short of my favorite then, the Orion.

It’s just generally not a great mech. Which kinda stinks, it looks interesting design wise.

I was looking for the unique variant and it doesn’t have a record sheet, it’s just mentioned in a blurb I guess. (That’s what Sarna say anyway). But I agree that or the comstar variant is the best of the IS bunch.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #12 on: 14 August 2024, 11:36:54 »
The Champion mech design conference:

[Mech designers doing a design pitch] "So you know how some mechs look like a 20th century fighter plane attached to a human body?  They haven't gone far enough.  What if we made a mech that looks like an old jet fighter with wings, but can't fly, or even jump?"

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #13 on: 14 August 2024, 12:14:47 »
The walking fuselage is not a look unique to the Champion (Stalker, Timber Wolf) but the wing like arms are definitely a choice that gets the brain thinking 'plane with legs'

I think I have used the mech once and it performed well but you do need to treat it like a medium mech. It's only a brawler going up against a Wolverine or maybe a Dragon where it will have more punch than it's opponent up close. After that, you are really relying on that movement speed. Swapping out the LB-10X for a PPC would free up enough weight for more armor while adding range, I'm surprised that was never a field refit.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #14 on: 14 August 2024, 12:39:08 »
While I feel the partial wing is appropriate and flavorful, it would really only lean further into making the Champion a bad mech.  A jumping, Partial wing, Champion would fall afoul of 2 different breakpoints which it would be just on the wrong side of - the jump in JJ tonnage from 55 to 60, AND the reduction in the PW's jump move going from Medium to Heavy.

Nothing inherently wrong with a fast 60 tonner - if you're not jumping, this is actually the optimal weight for a 5/8 mover with a standard engine.  But yes, the big ballistic gun tends to not leave enough tonnage left for the rest of what you need for a brawler.  I was disappointed to see the Royal version change to a sniper role instead of leaning into the close range role (replacing the LB with large pulse laser and armor, maybe?)

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #15 on: 14 August 2024, 13:18:22 »
Rang becomes your friend when you are facing a larger, more well armored and most likely slower so I can where the SLDF was going. The Great Houses where catching up but the SLDF in terms of military strength but the Royal units still had range on most mechs and the mechwarriors with the skill to take advantage of that range. Combined with the fact many players and not too keen on the IS LPL, giving us a Champion that's a different flavor isn't bad.  It actually makes the Clan Buster stand out more, ComGuard refitted most mechs for range or pulse but they doubled down on mid range for the Champion with standard Large Lasers. Still a solid mech to run side by side with the Wyvern.   
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #16 on: 14 August 2024, 13:31:27 »
I have to wonder if the SLDF's intended use of the Champion was to use a unit of long-range mechs like Archers and Highlanders to soften a target up before the Champions rushed in and used their LB 10-Xs and SRMs to exploit any holes that might have been made.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #17 on: 14 August 2024, 17:31:41 »
I have to wonder if the SLDF's intended use of the Champion was to use a unit of long-range mechs like Archers and Highlanders to soften a target up before the Champions rushed in and used their LB 10-Xs and SRMs to exploit any holes that might have been made.

Honestly, this makes a lot of sense. The range of the LB and the Champion's speed means that once you notice an enemy unit with holes, a crit seller is rarely gonna be more than a turn away. Similarly, Champion formations must have been utter nightmares to enemy tank companies.

I gotta be honest, the Champion's absence from the recent rounds of art redesigns has been absolutely baffling. Available to so many factions across the eras(including the ones covered by the Kickstarters), but it has been passed over time and again for redesign. It's a glaring hole in the collections of SLDF, C*, WoB AND Clan players (if not more), and right now...no insult to IWM but the metal mini is just hideous. :cry:
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #18 on: 14 August 2024, 18:28:04 »
I don't think it's IWM's fault- how old is the Champion's mini?  Probably dates back to the early 90s- wouldn't be surprised if it's one of the oldest molds that hasn't gotten a resculpt.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #19 on: 14 August 2024, 19:20:52 »
The Champion mech design conference:

[Mech designers doing a design pitch] "So you know how some mechs look like a 20th century fighter plane attached to a human body?  They haven't gone far enough.  What if we made a mech that looks like an old jet fighter with wings, but can't fly, or even jump?"

[People in charge] "We love the idea, build it!"

the central 'pod' torso actually looks rather similar to many of the marauder linage mechs, and most of those lacked jump jets as well. evidently having jet engine looking housings at the back of an egg shaped torso was just a popular style.

Starfury

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #20 on: 14 August 2024, 21:56:45 »
This is the same military that commissioned the Kanga Jump Hover Tank and the Magi. Mechs shaped like aerospace fighters don't even scratch the surface.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #21 on: 14 August 2024, 23:44:59 »
I can’t say I’m all that sad it didn’t get updated, even with the mw3 nostalgia. It’s just not a very good mech in any variation, aside from maybe the clan one. It just never felt good or particularly memorable. I’d rather be bad with panache rather than be bad and forgotten.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #22 on: 15 August 2024, 08:28:08 »
Champion is another one of those Heavies with the 60 ton curse of what to do with that weight. Like the Dragon, I can see the Champion as something meant to move with lighter, fast machines like the Wolverine, Griffin and Shadow Hawk.
The 60 ton 5/8 standard engine Mech has more free tons than a 55 ton standard engine Mech. If you don't intend to mount JJ it is a solid design choice.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #23 on: 15 August 2024, 23:48:53 »

I gotta be honest, the Champion's absence from the recent rounds of art redesigns has been absolutely baffling. Available to so many factions across the eras(including the ones covered by the Kickstarters), but it has been passed over time and again for redesign. It's a glaring hole in the collections of SLDF, C*, WoB AND Clan players (if not more), and right now...no insult to IWM but the metal mini is just hideous. :cry:

And I say, why mess with perfection? OK, that's exaggeration, to be sure, but just in terms of its visual aesthetic, the Champion is an exemplar of what I call the "SLDF Classic" look, which I think is BT's first distinctive design aesthetic that sets it apart from its anime mecha roots.  That look is IMO epitomized by the Annihilator, and I think the Annie redesigns for both the Recognition Guides and the later Mechwarrior computer games really robbed it of that distinctiveness.  If that's what an art redesign would do for the Champion, I'd just as soon there be no new art for it.  Granted, a lot of the interpretations of it that came after the original Tukayyid sourcebook were pretty hideous themselves...

cheers,

Gabe
« Last Edit: 03 September 2024, 22:09:46 by gyedid »
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #24 on: 16 August 2024, 00:16:41 »
The Champion feels like one of those ideas SLDF had where it seems like a good solution to a problem on paper, but in practice it was more effective was to just use more of existing assets. In theory an over-engined 'mech with an LB-X and some close combat weapons sounds great for dealing with light to medium support units, but in practice you could just use a lance of Wolverines that were already in mass production. This same problem translates to the table top, were there's a variety of 'mechs that can do the same job without the flaws.

That being said, the Champion is still a fun 'mech to play in heavily themed games. As part of its era of intro mech's and brand new Star League innovations (the Artemis IV is only 4 years old when the Champion debuts) it plays as a fun experiment. Its also good for bridging new players from Introductory tech to Standard because they can see the advantages while not having their established favorites instantly made obsolete. Much like in fiction later designs and technology put the Champion to shame, but in its window of time its an interesting option.
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gyedid

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #25 on: 16 August 2024, 22:27:38 »
The 60 ton 5/8 standard engine Mech has more free tons than a 55 ton standard engine Mech. If you don't intend to mount JJ it is a solid design choice.

All of one ton (29 vs. 28), according to SSW.  Interestingly, if you reduce the weight of any of the non-jumping canon 60-ton 5/8 movers to 55 tons, they all end up 1 ton overweight.

cheers,

Gabe

So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #26 on: 16 August 2024, 23:26:34 »


But even prior to this, there were older fast heavy designs, that had slipped under the radar a little. The Ostroc and Ostsol were both rare but quick chassis, the SLDF fielded the oddball Lancelot in reasonable numbers, and of course the famed DCMS Dragon became synonymous with House Kurita over the centuries. Hidden amongst these choices (and others, of course) was a strange SLDF machine intended to be a quick-moving close-combat menace, looking for all the world like a half-converted LAM, yet not having jump jets . Of all the Battlemechs fielded by the Star League, the CHP-series Champion was certainly... one of them. Let's give a closer look to this strange duck with its standard model (and first seen in real-world time), the CHP-1N, brought to you by the good folks at Bergan Industries.

If memory serves, the original fluff for the Champion mentions that there was a rival bid at the time, from Earthwerks, who claimed that they could get the same job done with a modified Griffin (think replacing the LRM-10 with an Artemis-slaved SRM-6 and you've basically got it, IMO).  Bergan nonetheless won the contract after an "intensive" lobbying effort; there was very likely some greasing of the right palms involved here.  If that was indeed the case, then the Champion would definitely not be the only example of corruption in SLDF procurement (the Magi being the most egregious example).

Champions are, as noted before, fairly quick for their size- a 300-series engine propels the 60-ton machine at a respectable 86kph (5/8 in our parlance), but as noted before as well, a Mech that looks like it's a jet fighter with legs- even with big jet exhaust ports on its back- lacks jump jets. This has bothered the author for the better part of thirty years, and isn't likely to stop any time soon. Even without jumping, however, this ground speed allows the swift-footed Champion to quickly close on opponents to unleash its weaponry, for all the positive and negative that comes with that plan of action. note that this is a standard engine, not XL (a new tech in the same book that the CHP debuted in, TRO:2750), which means it is HEAVY- a Champion pours a good third of its weight into that powerplant, which... it's not a great design choice, but the only options were to go with an XL engine (and the inherent flaws within), or slow to 4/6 and be just another standard-speed heavy. The engine makes the Champion what it is, good or bad, but it definitely uses up an eye-popping amount of mass. Contained within the engine as well are ten standard heat sinks- no new freezer tech to be found here. This can result in a bit of a problem, though not as bad as many competitors.

As Jellico pointed out, a 60-ton 5/8 mover does have more free tonnage than a 55-tonner at the same movement profile, but it's not a dramatic difference, just one ton.  While the powerplant does consume a greater fraction of the 'Mech's weight than on a 55-tonner, the increase in the fraction devoted to the engine is commensurate with that going from 50 to 55 tons (about a 3% increase).  The real sin is following that up with a heavy ballistic weapon.



We used an enormous amount of weight- nineteen tons- on that massive engine, and the smart thing to do at this point is to use lower-weight but powerful weapons like medium lasers and SRMs

True, but then you basically have another Quckdraw, without jump jets. The autocannon should've been a PPC.

We find more standard materials in the internal structure of the Champion, but the new ferro-fibrous armor makes one of its first appearances in real-world time on the machine, That means we get more armor coverage per ton compared to standard plating, and that's good! The problem is that with the engine and primary weapon eating up so much of the Champion's mass, we had to skimp somewhere, and that newfangled plating is it- a fairly paltry eight tons isn't going to win a lot of awards, and in fact isn't a great deal better than the famously-thin Rifleman and Jagermech.

[snip]

 to make for a powerful punch, while not using up too much weight on a big, clumsy weapon like an autocannon. And the Champion is, in this regard, a product of the same military that produced the Magi, Sentinel, and other 'hits', going with the big dumb option. However, we do at least make a passing effort at being interesting, with the Champion being one of the first units to deploy the new Lubalin LB-10X autocannon (parked in the right torso). For those who may not be as familiar with this marvel as veteran players, this gives a Champion pilot the ability to fire slug rounds (10 points to a location) like a normal AC/10, or fire a barrage of shotgun-like pellets (ten 1-point hits on the cluster table) to pepper a target with, giving excellent flexibility to the Mech. It would be a great choice... if not for the engine already eating up so much weight. Between the gun and engine we used 40 tons of a 60-ton machine- no wonder the armor sucks! A two-ton ammo bay allows for carriage of both ammo types, and is plenty for most combat operations.

[snip]

So we have a Mech that wants to run up in your face, spraying autocannon shells as it rapidly advances, then in close switches the lasers and missiles to full blast. But we don't have armor for that job, and we have the odd layout of the Mech coming into play as well- there's no hands or lower-arm actuators here (nor anything in those arms anyway), so punching isn't particularly easy despite the arms being free to do exactly that- a Champion sould fire every gun it has and still throw two punches, if it weren't so lousy at the attempt. It feels like there's an idea here, and it got lost in a series of bad ideas- the engine, again, is a necessary evil, but losing that cannon would have allowed for a much more focused design, and even allowed for better heat dissipation via more heat sinks- or better ones, if one desired.



Like so many of the units in TR:2750, the Champion appears to make the most sense as a tech demonstrator.  Each one is notable for one or two pieces of advanced tech (the Champion actually has three), but that's about it.  Often times they're used in a way that don't provide a notable increase in capability over 3025 designs (the Flashman being one of the notable exceptions).

The author's opinion on the 'Royal' variants is one of irritation- special variants for the elite of the elite, while the standard SLDF gets issued what was oftentimes hot garbage designs, and often the Royal model doesn't bear any resemblance to the standard model to begin with. Perhaps no unit exemplifies this sour mindset more than the CHP-1Nb2, which is all but unrecognizable from the 1N we talked about before. This thing strips out all of the Champion's weaponry, crams on the double heat sinks of the 1N2, then crams on a PPC and a Gauss rifle, turning the close-combat Champion into a quick sniper. To the surprise of the author, this was accomplished without a switch to an XL engine (I had to actually look up the record sheet again to confirm, and even then do some math to see if I was missing something). It's a good Mech, don't get me wrong- the thin armor remains, but as a sniper no one really cares, and it hits HARD at long ranges- but it has so little in common with its original design that I struggle to see why the SLDF would even do this.

I am convinced that in 1989, most of FASA's in-house designers didn't really understand how to properly use and optimize all the new toys introduced in TR:2750 (and that carried over to TR:3050...).  Between that time and when the Royal variants first came out, there was the development of good 'Mech and vehicle design software which made trying different equipment combinations a relative breeze, and 15+ years of learning how to minmax advanced equipment.  Along with this, there were also the big changes in IP ownership and management, and the PTBs of the mid-2000s were, I'm sure, well aware that a lot of what was presented in TR:2750 was underwhelming, to say the least, and felt they had to do SOMETHING to restore the fearsome and legendary reputation the SLDF was supposed to have had beyond just sheer size.  The Royals are a product of those changes and the top-down shift in design philosophy.  Not that this doesn't mean I don't share your irritation with regard to some of those designs--the Royal Griffin, for example, with its paired SRM-6s, just doesn't say "Griffin" to me. (but maybe that was the SLDF saying "Earthwerks was right all along!" ?)

Another way of looking at the Champion is to look at another similar, somewhat older (in-universe) design, the Hoplite.  Introduced in the original Wolf's Dragoons sourcebook (the same year as TR:2750?), and somewhat sharing the same design aesthetic, this is another middling-weight 'Mech whose arsenal is based around a Class 10 AC backed up by missiles (a LRM-5 in this case).  Looking at the two together, it's tempting to think of the Champion as the SLDF's attempt to make a bigger, faster Hoplite, but at the cost of the Hoplite's tough shell (at 55 tons and 4/6 movement, it has more armour than many 3025 heavies and all of the classic 55-tonners).

I'll probably post more on this topic later...

cheers,

Gabe
« Last Edit: 16 August 2024, 23:52:20 by gyedid »
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #27 on: 16 August 2024, 23:47:15 »
If memory serves, the original fluff for the Champion mentions that there was a rival bid at the time, from Earthwerks, who claimed that they could get the same job done with a modified Griffin (think replacing the LRM-10 with an Artemis-slaved SRM-6 and you've basically got it, IMO).

Sounds like the Griffin 2N.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #28 on: 16 August 2024, 23:48:49 »
True, but then you basically have another Quckdraw, without jump jets. The autocannon should've been a PPC.

Or... keep the LB10X in all it's glory & use additional MLs in place of the SRMs/SLs.
And the DHS that most every variant uses as well.
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gyedid

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #29 on: 18 August 2024, 17:19:19 »
A few additional points to make...


[snip]

and other 'hits', going with the big dumb option. However, we do at least make a passing effort at being interesting, with the Champion being one of the first units to deploy the new Lubalin LB-10X autocannon (parked in the right torso). For those who may not be as familiar with this marvel as veteran players, this gives a Champion pilot the ability to fire slug rounds (10 points to a location) like a normal AC/10, or fire a barrage of shotgun-like pellets (ten 1-point hits on the cluster table) to pepper a target with, giving excellent flexibility to the Mech. It would be a great choice... if not for the engine already eating up so much weight. Between the gun and engine we used 40 tons of a 60-ton machine- no wonder the armor sucks! A two-ton ammo bay allows for carriage of both ammo types, and is plenty for most combat operations.

 Two small lasers are parked under the cockpit in the center torso, giving a little added boost at knife-fighting ranges where the Mech may struggle to brawl (more on that shortly). One can't help but wish for a third medium in place of these, but we don't always get what we want in life. Finally, a handy SRM-6 with an Artemis computer gives a powerful shotgun blast from the left torso with the lasers, with a ton of ammo feeding it-

[snip]


We have a 'Mech with two ammo-fed weapons, ammo in each side torso, and a standard engine.  Considering we already have an LB-X AC, an Artemis-slaved SRM, and ferro-fibrous armour, there's one other piece of advanced tech that just cries out to be used here.  Remember what I said about the in-house designers of the time not really understanding what they had to play with?  The tonnage spent on those small lasers would've been better spent on CASE--there's really no excuse not to have it there, especially since it had been around since the mid-2400s.  But this was also a time when many 'Mechs (in their fluff, at least) carried SLs as anti-infantry weapons (even if the rules didn't really make them effective in that role), so perhaps that was the intent behind putting them there--as well as-being crit-soakers for the CT.

With two weapons known for their shotgun effect, a strange picture starts to emerge of the Champion as being a fast anti-vehicle and infantry support 'Mech.  This being the SLDF, they would of course send a 'Mech to do a job that would be done better by a tank.

It feels like there's an idea here, and it got lost in a series of bad ideas- the engine, again, is a necessary evil, but losing that cannon would have allowed for a much more focused design, and even allowed for better heat dissipation via more heat sinks- or better ones, if one desired.

I've given what I think are the OOU reasons for the -1N's shortcomings.  In-universe...the Champion is a Bergan Industries design, a company whose only previous 'Mech design, IIRC, was the Locust.  The -1N Champion's shortcomings could very well be a combination of the company's inexperience designing heavy 'Mechs, and their desire to bring the thing that characterized their signature design--speed--to a heavy chassis.


It's a good Mech, don't get me wrong- the thin armor remains, but as a sniper no one really cares, and it hits HARD at long ranges- but it has so little in common with its original design that I struggle to see why the SLDF would even do this.

Along the same lines, the 1Nb was a later version (never mind that it came after the 1Nb2?) that swapped the PPC for an ER PPC when that weapon came available. Not much really changes other than the increased range, it still is heat-reasonable despite the new gun, fights at long ranges, etc.- all the things you love and hate are back. Again, the author acknowledges that this is a pretty good Mech if used carefully, but just can't fathom why Champions were modified in this way- or at the very least, so few of them.

Well, by that point, the SLDF had more than a hundred years to figure out that the basic Champion...kinda sucked.  So for their elite troops, quite a few of whom could hit more reliably at medium and long ranges with those big guns, they came up with something that would maximize the chassis' strengths, while minimizing its weaknesses.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #30 on: 18 August 2024, 17:41:58 »
The tonnage spent on those small lasers would've been better spent on CASE--
Or use a pair of Streaks instead of Artemis & move the Ammo so all of it could be a single CASE next to the LBX.
Another half ton of armor isn't much but the mech could use any added help.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #31 on: 18 August 2024, 17:52:13 »
Along the same lines, the 1Nb was a later version (never mind that it came after the 1Nb2?) that swapped the PPC for an ER PPC when that weapon came available.
I assume your aware that the OOC issue was the Royal designer(s) put a bunch of ERPPCs on things w/ intro dates way before ERPPCs were invented.
Not that they actually did the numbering out of order.
As for TPTB fix method, well, I'd have probably gone with an "a" or "r" or "h" instead of the "b2" but hey that's me.
a being before b,  r being refit or royal, h being hegemony.
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gyedid

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #32 on: 18 August 2024, 22:08:51 »

So. Champion. It's overall not a great Mech, but it- wait, there's what?

You have to be ****** kidding me. Seriously?


OK. Well, sooooo... there's an LAM. It's more of a joke than anything really, but it deserves mention briefly. The CHP-1X1 was an experimental program to produce a Champion LAM, despite being larger than rules really allow. Dropping weaponry down to three medium lasers and the SRM (keeping the Artemis), the Mech becomes a 5/8/5 mover, but with the ability to transform into an AirMech (15/23). The prototype suffered major structural problems due to its weight, and was decidedly sluggish in the air, neither of which were considered positive, and after a number of tests the machine was cancelled. The TRO entry notes that the prototypes were stored on New Dallas, and one can only hope that they've been buried under rubble and never see the light of day.


Heh, you know, the Champion's appearance would almost make more sense if it were the LAM that came first.  Bergan tries to push the envelope by designing the first-ever heavy LAM, and the project fails spectacularly. Rather than scrap it completely, the company tries to recoup some of their sunk costs by redesigning the Champion as a conventional heavy 'Mech, hoping that'll be an easier sell.  But they don't put THAT much effort into the redesign (have to save time and further expenses), so the Champion still comes out looking like The LAM That Never Was.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #33 on: 18 August 2024, 22:46:36 »
Honestly, I rather like that approach.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #34 on: 18 August 2024, 23:02:47 »
Honestly, I rather like that approach.

so do i. though the official timeline doesn't work out. the champion's intro date is 2602, 82 years before the failed Shadow Hawk LAM and 84 years before the viable Stinger LAM. (and 97 years before they built the champion LAM)

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #35 on: 19 August 2024, 10:05:57 »
What funny is MWO just made a Champion special model with Partial Wings and wonky thing is it flies more than normal Jump Jet mechs would.  It gets chance to Fly! (Non-canonly..)
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #36 on: 21 August 2024, 20:41:11 »

We find more standard materials in the internal structure of the Champion, but the new ferro-fibrous armor makes one of its first appearances in real-world time on the machine, That means we get more armor coverage per ton compared to standard plating, and that's good! The problem is that with the engine and primary weapon eating up so much of the Champion's mass, we had to skimp somewhere, and that newfangled plating is it- a fairly paltry eight tons isn't going to win a lot of awards, and in fact isn't a great deal better than the famously-thin Rifleman and Jagermech. Those famous machines have the advantage of being able to hang back from the fighting at least, limiting the amount of return fire- not here. A Mech that mounts mostly short-ranged weaponry is being asked to dash into the thick of the fighting with a surprisingly thin shell, and it's a wonder anyone survived those death-rides. Being that the SLDF was deploying things like this in company-sized groups, I suppose the plan was to lose five and run the enemy off the field with the remaining seven, but in later eras it's a concerning layout.

Actually, the Champion is in the same ballpark as the pre-existing (i.e., published first) 5/8 60-tonners.

Quickdraw--128 points (sacrifices protection for mobility)
Ost twins--144 points (paper-thin on the arms)
Dragon--160 points (best of a bad lot)

So in that respect, it fits the pattern of 'Mechs of that weight and speed being shorted on armour. This being the SLDF, though, you wanted more and better.  And that's not what TR:2750 gave us. 

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #37 on: 21 August 2024, 20:54:40 »
and given the-1N carries 143 out of a possible 201 total (so ~71% of max) it actually is in a pretty good point for its era. it's just that our battlefield expectations have changed post-clans, and anything below 80% get seen as fragile now.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #38 on: 21 August 2024, 23:12:18 »
This unit just reeks of corruption.  Single heat sinks?  Fancy ammo dependent main weapon to keep the gravy train rolling for resupply in a platform not really armoured to intermediate range.  New armour that is not only presumably stupidly expensive to replace, but is thin enough to increase the chances of having internal damage in a firefight, requiring not just replacing the shiny new armour, but also ensuring an ongoing demand for spare parts.

Reminds me of cheap gold plated jewelry, the outside looks good (for a while), but the inside is cheap pot-metal.  Here, shiny new kit syndrome on the armour, utter garbage on the inside.  I wonder how much of a stake the people who approved purchasing this weapons system had the manufacturing concern. 


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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #39 on: 21 August 2024, 23:46:17 »
The single heat sinks may have also been a cost cutting measure. The Champion was just that much cheaper than other LB-10X platforms at the time, second only to the Hoplite and while the armor was expensive, the standard engine meant you only needed to replace the armor and not the entire mech (unless everything went pair shape) The Royal Griffin and the Royal Shadowhawk could do the same job better but both where that much more expensive and reserved for the Royal Division.

That said, the Hoplite is cheaper and tougher. The Champion is faster though and ... wait, the heaver 60 ton mech is 5/8 and the lighter 55 ton mech is 4/6 with more armor...

Well, not the first time the SLDF was prone to approving questionable designs... nor the worst ... *glares at Charger 1A1* 
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #40 on: 22 August 2024, 01:04:04 »
it is worth noting that DHS were only 35 years old when the champion walked off the assembly line. DHS intro date is 2567, the champion in 2602. odds are the DHS supply might have been prioritized to other designs at the time, or the design team not familiar enough with the use of the hardware (in terms of actual engineering) to make them confident they could get a good result using them.


edit: Ferro Fiberous armor was 31 years old (intro date  2571 for the non-prototype version.. the prototype version was around 2557), and the LB10X was only 7 years old (2595 intro).. Artemis IV was only 4 years old. (2598 intro) but one would imagine that a variant armor ('mech skin' basically) would be easier to design around than a radical shift in coolant system. and now i'm wondering if the champion was the first production use of artemis and LBX AC's.
also makes me wonder of the design might have been originally conceived of as using all introtech (like the -2N) and then they slapped on some new tech to make it more appealing to the SLDF generals.. using the mass saved from the LBX to fit the artemisIV, and reskinning it in ferro.


edit 2: so the Warhammer -6Rb intros with artemis IV the year after Artemis IV was deployed, so it's probably the first. but the champion might have been the first non-royal to use it. and it may have been the first production Mech design to use use the LBX. certainly helps explain some of the oddities of the design. it may be that the SLDF insisted they fit both in order to showcase the technology to the wider IS.
« Last Edit: 22 August 2024, 10:41:48 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #41 on: 22 August 2024, 13:53:56 »
One fix for the Champion might also be Endo Steel combined with the Ferro. 

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #42 on: 22 August 2024, 15:16:04 »
The single heat sinks may have also been a cost cutting measure. The Champion was just that much cheaper than other LB-10X platforms at the time, second only to the Hoplite and while the armor was expensive, the standard engine meant you only needed to replace the armor and not the entire mech (unless everything went pair shape) The Royal Griffin and the Royal Shadowhawk could do the same job better but both where that much more expensive and reserved for the Royal Division.

That said, the Hoplite is cheaper and tougher. The Champion is faster though and ... wait, the heaver 60 ton mech is 5/8 and the lighter 55 ton mech is 4/6 with more armor...

Well, not the first time the SLDF was prone to approving questionable designs... nor the worst ... *glares at Charger 1A1*

Minor quibble: Star League Hoplites did not carry LB-Xes. They all had regular ACs, aside from the rare PPC models. :)
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #43 on: 22 August 2024, 15:42:54 »
Minor quibble: Star League Hoplites did not carry LB-Xes. They all had regular ACs, aside from the rare PPC models. :)
the clan era 4D models do, and they're the more commonly used one. but yes, the SLDF -4C model came off the production lines 17 years before the LBX did.
« Last Edit: 22 August 2024, 15:47:07 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #44 on: 22 August 2024, 17:33:47 »
One fix for the Champion might also be Endo Steel combined with the Ferro. 

The Royal goes that route IIRC.

A theoretical Champion-1N3 using Endo but keeping the 1N2 DHS/LBX would have 3 tons to play with.
2 for Armor & 1 to upgrade the SL to SPL or ML would be solid options.
Maybe 1.5 Armor & slap RT CASE in there w/ moved SRM ammo.

Space might be iffy, IDK for sure.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #45 on: 22 August 2024, 21:14:27 »
Minor quibble: Star League Hoplites did not carry LB-Xes. They all had regular ACs, aside from the rare PPC models. :)

My mistake, thanks for the correction. I just flipped to the fist Hoplite reference I had and should have cross reference.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #46 on: 22 August 2024, 22:16:06 »
the clan era 4D models do, and they're the more commonly used one. but yes, the SLDF -4C model came off the production lines 17 years before the LBX did.

If by "Clan era" you mean "post-4th Succession War", then that's fine.  The Hoplite -4D and -C were both Wolf's Dragoons refits made after the 4th SW and Battle of Luthien, respectively.  Otherwise the Clans don't seem to have come up with a post-Exile refit other than the -4Bb and -4Cb, which were still all Star League tech.  The fact that they did create a Clan-spec refit of the Champion during the Golden Century would seem to indicate that they valued the Champion more than they did the Hoplite.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #47 on: 23 August 2024, 10:07:12 »
Not surprising, really. It's a fast machine that rewards aggressive tactics and quick kills, but also isn't really built for melee combat. Honestly, it's right up several Clans' alley.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #48 on: 23 August 2024, 20:28:13 »
If by "Clan era" you mean "post-4th Succession War", then that's fine.  The Hoplite -4D and -C were both Wolf's Dragoons refits made after the 4th SW and Battle of Luthien, respectively.  Otherwise the Clans don't seem to have come up with a post-Exile refit other than the -4Bb and -4Cb, which were still all Star League tech.  The fact that they did create a Clan-spec refit of the Champion during the Golden Century would seem to indicate that they valued the Champion more than they did the Hoplite.

cheers,

Gabe

the -4D's introdate on the MUL is 3050. the 'clan invasion era' is 3050 to 3061. ergo the -4D is a clan invasion era machine.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #49 on: 26 August 2024, 19:05:30 »
One fix for the Champion might also be Endo Steel combined with the Ferro.

Being that Bergan seemed to be interested in saving a buck wherever they could (see: SHS), expensive toys like that might HELP, but they're not useful to Bergan's bottom line, and THAT was what the Champion was really supposed to be a support unit for. Any success it had on the SLDF's battlefields was always a secondary bonus. (Ditto, of course, for that pricey XL engine!)
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #50 on: 26 August 2024, 19:34:21 »
True. I mean more for later eras rather then using an XL to gain more weapon mass at the cost of survivability.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #51 on: 26 August 2024, 21:04:56 »
Not surprising, really. It's a fast machine that rewards aggressive tactics and quick kills, but also isn't really built for melee combat. Honestly, it's right up several Clans' alley.

In other words, the same kind of thinking that produced the Hunchback IIC? (although that does have hands)

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #52 on: 27 August 2024, 00:27:56 »
In other words, the same kind of thinking that produced the Hunchback IIC? (although that does have hands)

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #53 on: 27 August 2024, 00:31:29 »
It's cheap, and deliberately designed to be a death trap.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #54 on: 27 August 2024, 12:15:56 »
In other words, the same kind of thinking that produced the Hunchback IIC? (although that does have hands)

Kinda, but not nearly to the suicidal extreme as the Hunchy. Think "enough to win a single duel and showcase a skilled pilot" instead of "enough to win a single duel and showcase a hero's corpse".
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #55 on: 28 August 2024, 06:20:29 »
I normally like these write ups but this one...I'd agree with it when pushed into general use but the Champion's intended roll isn't to rush in and slug it out. It's intended role are heavy reconnaissance and fast strike missions. In those missions the weaponry and armor makes more sense.

The LBX has twice the range of the ML and SRMs. That keeps recon hunters at a respectable distance. It also allows the Champion to open up and exploit holes in its enemies when it does rush forward to strike it's enemies. The other weapons aren't there so the Champion can slug it out with the enemy but to finish off enemies that are already damaged. And when used like this the 8 tons of FF Armor isn't bad.  Yes, there's better configurations but for these missions I think it works. Its when pushed into other roles that the weaponry and lighter armor become more of an issue. But it still works if it hangs back a little to support the rest of it's lance before charging in.

I do agree that the Champion looks like it should have jump jets. Swapping the LBX for a PPC or ER PPC, does leave room for 4 jump jets and an additional ton of armor. DHS would take care of the heat build up.

I think the oddest thing about the Champion is that it's competitor was the GRF-3N, which isn't introduced for another 491 years.  :huh:

A Champion with a Partial Wing would make a more functional jumping variant than the Champion LAM. I still love the Champion LAM though. I'd swap its weapons for Clan tech and install a ILL or ERLL for a long range punch in keeping with the original Champion though.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #56 on: 28 August 2024, 09:54:16 »
I'd agree with it when pushed into general use but the Champion's intended roll isn't to rush in and slug it out. It's intended role are heavy reconnaissance and fast strike missions. In those missions the weaponry and armor makes more sense.

I rather like this. Use the Champion to lead ground-bound recon and strike formations the same way the Wolverine is meant to lead jumping ones.

The cannon also makes more sense in this role, since such units are highly likely to run into vehicular opposition in the form of pickets and rear-area defenders.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #57 on: 28 August 2024, 15:57:02 »
I rather like this. Use the Champion to lead ground-bound recon and strike formations the same way the Wolverine is meant to lead jumping ones.

The cannon also makes more sense in this role, since such units are highly likely to run into vehicular opposition in the form of pickets and rear-area defenders.

 :smiley:
Leading, supporting or both.

Yep. Or other scouts, which tend to have less armor. If I were in a Bug Mech, I wouldn't want to run into one.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #58 on: 28 August 2024, 20:33:09 »
If you're in a bug mech, is there anything that you want to run into?
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #59 on: 29 August 2024, 00:14:12 »
If you're in a bug mech, is there anything that you want to run into?

A squad of infantry who didn't notice a 20-30 ton mech running around the corner... 
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #60 on: 29 August 2024, 00:15:44 »
But just a squad.  A full platoon is dangerous.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #61 on: 29 August 2024, 00:22:22 »
But just a squad.  A full platoon is dangerous.

I would imagine this would be most bug mechs in that situation:
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #62 on: 29 August 2024, 00:45:05 »
I'm reminded of the old Civil War joke.  "It's a trap, sir, there's two of them!"

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #63 on: 29 August 2024, 22:11:48 »
Being that Bergan seemed to be interested in saving a buck wherever they could (see: SHS), expensive toys like that might HELP, but they're not useful to Bergan's bottom line, and THAT was what the Champion was really supposed to be a support unit for. Any success it had on the SLDF's battlefields was always a secondary bonus. (Ditto, of course, for that pricey XL engine!)

TRO:3039 suggests that Bergan they didn't have a DHS variant because that would admit their design had a flaw. In a way though it makes sense. If the Champion is close enough that to fire everything either it's moved in for a quick kill or something went wrong. Otherwise, 10 HS is good enough.


If you're in a bug mech, is there anything that you want to run into?

My first thought was Civilians but then I thought about the slip hazard so probably not.





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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #64 on: 30 August 2024, 11:15:22 »
The Champion LAM was the one design that Herb requested be added to all the garbage designs that I had assembled for Boondoggles.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #65 on: 30 August 2024, 17:30:51 »
(the Magi being the most egregious example).
More egregious than the Charger?
The walking fuselage is not a look unique to the Champion (Stalker, Timber Wolf) but the wing like arms are definitely a choice that gets the brain thinking 'plane with legs'
What is pretty rare is the walking fuselage with legs that bend forward. Only the Mercury, Mercury II, Coyotl, Champion and Hoplite that  I can recall off hand. Sentinel and Stalker used to be the same but more recent art has retconned them.
The Champion LAM was the one design that Herb requested be added to all the garbage designs that I had assembled for Boondoggles.
Probably because its profile just screams wanting to fly.

Also... What's up with those arms?
I get they're supposed to be vestigial, but what even are those supposed to be?

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #66 on: 30 August 2024, 17:50:33 »

Also... What's up with those arms?
I get they're supposed to be vestigial, but what even are those supposed to be?

They're WHY I put the thing in the garbage designs. It looked like a failed LAM, so I MADE it a failed LAM.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #67 on: 30 August 2024, 17:58:20 »
They're WHY I put the thing in the garbage designs. It looked like a failed LAM, so I MADE it a failed LAM.

- Herb

Checks out.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #68 on: 30 August 2024, 18:30:32 »
Also... What's up with those arms?
I get they're supposed to be vestigial, but what even are those supposed to be?
Makes you wonder if Black Python (Viper) is related to the Champion.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #69 on: 30 August 2024, 19:55:15 »
Makes you wonder if Black Python (Viper) is related to the Champion.
  • plane like mech body - Check
  • rudder on top - Check
Well it is a BattleMech, so the original name could have been Champion IIC, at least before the scientists were told to change the name.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #70 on: 30 August 2024, 22:06:08 »
The Champion LAM was the one design that Herb requested be added to all the garbage designs that I had assembled for Boondoggles.

It's a good choice for a LAM.


They're WHY I put the thing in the garbage designs. It looked like a failed LAM, so I MADE it a failed LAM.

- Herb

Failed or not I still love it. Plus if gives a glimpse of what might have been if LAM's weight weren't capped.


Makes you wonder if Black Python (Viper) is related to the Champion.
  • plane like mech body - Check
  • rudder on top - Check

Good question! It does look like the Champion's big brother.
And it could be a failed Clan LAM!  :evil:


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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #71 on: 30 August 2024, 22:44:56 »
They're WHY I put the thing in the garbage designs. It looked like a failed LAM, so I MADE it a failed LAM.

- Herb
But why even are they shaped like that? Was the original artist high or something?
Makes you wonder if Black Python (Viper) is related to the Champion.
  • plane like mech body - Check
  • rudder on top - Check
Good question! It does look like the Champion's big brother.
And it could be a failed Clan LAM!  :evil:
Except for the part where the Black Python:
 - Has actual jumpjets
 - Has actual functional arms
 - Has armor actually worth a damn
 - Is actually dangerous at any range
But hey, at least it's an improvement on all counts..

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #72 on: 31 August 2024, 01:49:40 »
Except for the part where the Black Python:
 - Has actual jumpjets
 - Has actual functional arms
 - Has armor actually worth a damn
 - Is actually dangerous at any range
But hey, at least it's an improvement on all counts..

Being 15 tons heavier and built with Clan Tech does give a lot of room for improvements.

As a LAM, the Black Python would have to replace it's XL Engine, ES Structure, and FF Armor with standard versions. Then add in an 8 ton Conversion System. It's speed, armor protection, and fire power is going will drop.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #73 on: 31 August 2024, 09:55:07 »
But why even are they shaped like that? Was the original artist high or something?Except for the part where the

Dunno. Never met them.

- Herb

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #74 on: 31 August 2024, 21:22:23 »
Also... What's up with those arms?
I get they're supposed to be vestigial, but what even are those supposed to be?

I chalk it up to the same kind of thinking that produced:



If you want to justify it in-universe, think about the Champion's intro date.  It was 2602, right at the beginning of the "good years" following the end of the Reunification War.  The economy had picked up considerably and irrational exuberance was everywhere, and penetrated into 'Mech design at some companies.  Bergan knew their proposal had, um, certain shortcomings, so they thought they would make the SLDF procurement officers' heads turn by offering a really cool-looking design.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #75 on: 01 September 2024, 04:18:59 »
it's also possible that they actually are vestigal features. that originally they intended features for the mech which got dropped, but late enough in development the gross physical design didn't get changed. for example, perhaps they had originally intended to include jump jets, so designed it with aerodynamic features for better control mid jump, only to drop that feature later while keeping the arm design.

Weirdo

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #76 on: 01 September 2024, 10:41:25 »
My personal headcanon is that the heat sink grid routes through all that surface area and functions a bit like an early partial wing, allowing a Champion to dissipate 10.1 heat per turn.

I bet they also marketed the lack of articulated hands as a cost-cutting feature, calling it a pure gunboat with no extra frills.
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gyedid

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #77 on: 01 September 2024, 11:27:40 »
My personal headcanon is that the heat sink grid routes through all that surface area and functions a bit like an early partial wing, allowing a Champion to dissipate 10.1 heat per turn.

I bet they also marketed the lack of articulated hands as a cost-cutting feature, calling it a pure gunboat with no extra frills.

Sure, but we don't have fractional accounting for heat in the rules...

I speculated in the design forums that if the Champion were given jump jets, it should benefit from the Nimble Jumper quirk.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
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Gorgon

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #78 on: 01 September 2024, 11:29:36 »
Just call it a revolutionary control surface that allows greater stability and tighter turns at high speeds. It just never had the dramatic effect on the Champion's performance that was advertised. (Because we lack a quirk that would represent such a thing)
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marauder648

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #79 on: 01 September 2024, 13:50:29 »
I can't recall but isn't the Champion getting new art/a new model in the 2nd kickstarter or was it one that was missed?
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #80 on: 01 September 2024, 14:03:09 »
I can't recall but isn't the Champion getting new art/a new model in the 2nd kickstarter or was it one that was missed?

Apparent it got passed over on every KS, every new piece of art I have seen has been a fan work. I mean, it's not a super popular mech so I can see why but it is kind of a shame as it's far from terrible. May see a new one in a force pack in the future, we will be getting a new Kintaro in the future SLDF pack after all and a Berserker in the future Steiner pack.
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marauder648

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #81 on: 01 September 2024, 14:54:46 »
Apparent it got passed over on every KS, every new piece of art I have seen has been a fan work. I mean, it's not a super popular mech so I can see why but it is kind of a shame as it's far from terrible. May see a new one in a force pack in the future, we will be getting a new Kintaro in the future SLDF pack after all and a Berserker in the future Steiner pack.

Aye, looking forwards to them :) I hope we get a new look Wyvern in the future too, that thing desperately needs an update, and yeah the Champion's not exactly a great go to design, its fast but..eh, and honestly its design/art from the past and even the more modern takes on it have never done it any favours. Its an egg with some empty shelving units strapped on the sides.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #82 on: 01 September 2024, 15:13:27 »
I was surprised how well the champion works with other 5/8 movers but the great BT Player blind spot is you hear that the Champion is a Heavy and you expect it to work with heavier mechs. Though, upgrading it isn't hard, as proven in the previous post.

As far as looks, I've seen some fan art that makes the Champion look closer to a beefy Cougar or more industrial Black Python. New art really redeemed the Ostroc and Ostsol which had decent stats but terrible art, it would be interesting to see what we get with Champion from the same artist.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #83 on: 01 September 2024, 21:01:31 »
Apparent it got passed over on every KS, every new piece of art I have seen has been a fan work. I mean, it's not a super popular mech so I can see why but it is kind of a shame as it's far from terrible. May see a new one in a force pack in the future, we will be getting a new Kintaro in the future SLDF pack after all and a Berserker in the future Steiner pack.

the mechwarrior online version is the closest we've gotten to a real art redesign.and it still looks pretty much the same, just with more greeblies.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:MWO_Champion.png

one interesting feature is that in the concept art, they gave the ends of those 'arms' winches. so while it doesn't have hands, they probably could double as a form of crane. which might be useful in the field for supporting other units. in fact they seem to have a hookup loop part way down the arm, so you could probably sling small cargo box under them.
« Last Edit: 01 September 2024, 21:04:16 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #84 on: 02 September 2024, 01:47:30 »
Vestigial lift hoists? Honestly, I really like that.

I think there actually is a quirk for that, though I'm not sure the requirements for it.
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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #85 on: 02 September 2024, 06:48:19 »
I was surprised how well the champion works with other 5/8 movers but the great BT Player blind spot is you hear that the Champion is a Heavy and you expect it to work with heavier mechs.
Eh.. It's a 60 tonner. Most 60 tonners are 5/8 movers. That is on the triangle of armor, firepower and speed, they're already banking on speed and can't really devote much more to armor and firepower.

the mechwarrior online version is the closest we've gotten to a real art redesign.and it still looks pretty much the same, just with more greeblies.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:MWO_Champion.png

one interesting feature is that in the concept art, they gave the ends of those 'arms' winches. so while it doesn't have hands, they probably could double as a form of crane. which might be useful in the field for supporting other units. in fact they seem to have a hookup loop part way down the arm, so you could probably sling small cargo box under them.
It at least looks like it has semi-feasible arms. Still not quite functional, but they at least vaguely resemble arms.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #86 on: 02 September 2024, 11:02:58 »
Vestigial lift hoists? Honestly, I really like that.

I think there actually is a quirk for that, though I'm not sure the requirements for it.
No requirements, but you are limited to scenario specific payloads (read cargo).
So I imagine having a 3 ton cargo pod hanging under each arm.
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gyedid

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #87 on: 02 September 2024, 11:36:15 »
Vestigial lift hoists? Honestly, I really like that.

I think there actually is a quirk for that, though I'm not sure the requirements for it.

Well, there's the Cerberus with the Vestigial Hands quirk.  Hands can be used for picking up objects like cargo but don't count as having hand actuators for melee combat.

cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

RifleMech

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #88 on: 02 September 2024, 16:16:49 »
I chalk it up to the same kind of thinking that produced:




The Royal variant comes with racing stripes.  :grin:





it's also possible that they actually are vestigal features. that originally they intended features for the mech which got dropped, but late enough in development the gross physical design didn't get changed. for example, perhaps they had originally intended to include jump jets, so designed it with aerodynamic features for better control mid jump, only to drop that feature later while keeping the arm design.


That makes sense.  And jump jets would help with it's recon role  and they could have been dropped in favor of the LBX which was introduced a few years earlier. Flight controls, for nimble jumping, and any weapons in the arms could have been dropped at the same time. The art could suggest this is what happened. The TRO:2750 art looks like there's a weapon in the arm. Other art looks like the weapon port was covered up.



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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #89 on: 02 September 2024, 16:35:55 »
Mmmhmmm... I can't help but think the arms looked more complete with the Comguard refits and weapons added.

Weirdo

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #90 on: 02 September 2024, 17:40:07 »
Well, there's the Cerberus with the Vestigial Hands quirk.  Hands can be used for picking up objects like cargo but don't count as having hand actuators for melee combat.

cheers,

Gabe

I remembered the gist of that quirk, but not the details. Are there any requirements for it that would otherwise disqualify the Champion?
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gyedid

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #91 on: 02 September 2024, 18:12:59 »
I just know what I read on Sarna:

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Design_Quirks#Vestigial_Hands

It doesn't say there whether it's mutually exclusive with No/Minimal Arms.  IIRC, the Cerberus has lower arm actuators.


Cheers,

Gabe
So, now I'm imagining people boxing up Overlords for loading as cargo.  "Nope, totally not a DropShip.  Everyone knows you can't fit a DropShip in a WarShip!  It's...a ten thousand ton box of marshmallows!  Yeah.  For the Heavy Guards big annual smores party."
--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

TERRAN SUPREMACY DEFENSE FORCE.  For when you want to send the SLDF, but couldn't afford the whole kit and kaboodle.

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Re: MotW: Champion
« Reply #92 on: 04 September 2024, 03:01:36 »
Campaign Operations lists no prerequisites for Vestigial Hands. Personally I still think that Easy to Pilot would be a good fit, too. Those arms might make it a bit easier to keep the balance on rough terrain.
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